Level 60 -> Reset To Level 1 (Prestige Rank 1)

[Mativh]

An option, once you reach level 60, to reset your levels to level 1, and gain something like a prestige rank.

It's about the journey.

the details could be discussed, like:

- What would be the rewards for each prestige rank
[for example title, tabard, mount, pet or a rare/elite frame in case you've reached max level doing some or combination of the Turtle WoW challenges (like S&S, Warmode or Hardcore) etc., perhaps a reputation at a vendor where you could choose the preferred reward]

- Which items and progressions should be kept/reseted alongside the levels
(some/all items, reputation, quests, quest rewards, gold, professions etc.)
I think some of the progress should definitely be kept, accumulating with each prestige rank.

- Should there be a limit on the amount of resets

- Should the gameplay differ each time (more/less difficulty, different xp rate, challenges, additional content etc.)

[Mativh]

I love leveling in vanilla wow, and that it's such an important part of the game, unlike in later expansions where it's a chore, you rush through and the game begins on max level. I get attached to my characters, on hardcore even more.
I also like how in Diablo 2 when you pass the content of the game you get a specific title (differing whether it's passed on softcore/hardcore) and can repeat the content on normal/nightmare/hell.
I wish there was no max level and all of WoW content was spread out during leveling. I know this isn't generally desired (maybe on Turtle WoW more) nor achievable, but this idea, reseting the levels, could be.

[Kanto123]

I'm interested in this

[Pristn]

Reward +1 talent point

[Jolikmc]

I like this idea. However… I have a few questions regarding what happens when a player hits this potential "Level 1★" – some of which was already asked, of course. Even so, here's my thoughts:

• What happens to all their level-locked gear?
  For example, let's a Level 60 player is wearing full Tier 2 gear. Does the gear stay equipped until manually removed because the game doesn't know any better? Or would there be a script implemented that scans the player's equipment and removes the stuff they can't wear at that level? What if the player's inventory is full when this happens?
   
• How would a "Prestige" player go about leveling to 60★?
  Some players use quests to rise through the ranks. Some players grind. If a particular player quested their way to 60, it wouldn't make sense for all their completed quests to reset. In essence, this would leave a Level 1★ player a bit stranded without any quests to do. Again, not a problem for those who enjoy the grind, but still.
   
• Would the player's Abilities reset? What about Talents? Skills?
  This is another case of the game "not knowing any better", I feel; once a skill is learned, it stays with the player even if their level somehow goes down. At least that's my experience with GM commands on emulated servers. In any case, would this be another case for a "scan inventory; remove high-level thing" script? Or would the player retain all their Abilities?
  Talents also pose a slight problem as players only get access to that function at Level 10. I don't know if it's hard-coded to always be available once it becomes available, but either way, I'm assuming the idea is to let a player master all three talents, so these probably wouldn't reset. Skills, though? Particularly weapon / armor skills? These have a cap of 300. I don't see much harm in leaving them alone, either – especially in the case of Profession / Secondary skills. I just don't know if it would somehow cause problems.

Just some thoughts from someone who likes to focus on numbers.

[Allwynd01]

I like this idea too. There is an MMORPG called Villagers & Heroes where there is a mechanic in the game that once you hit max level, you can be "reborn" to level 1 while keeping some benefits that make you slightly stronger than you were before.

https://villagersandheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Rebirth


It's an interesting concept, although the game's combat and controls are crap so much so that I can't even play it because of them.




I also love the leveling process in an MMORPG much more than anything else, I like:

- questing
- exploring the world (even when I've explored it hundreds of times before)
- enjoy the visuals
- look under every nook and cranny
- roleplay in my head why there is an abandoned barn and so forth (there is a farm right before you enter Darkshire that has no NPCs or quests or anything and serves no purpose other than decoration)
- see much character get stronger with new gear or abilities or levels


I think that having an option to be reborn to level 1 is something that would fit Turtle WoW really well. But I think there should be some benefits for doing that, like getting your stats increased by a small percentage each time you do a "rebirth", say 1% each time or something.

[Wilsonsds]

I agree, for me and also for many others, the leveling experience is more enjoyable than the endgame. Maybe because when you hit the endgame you get stuck in there and the only way to experience again the game fully is making another character. I mean, you could visit a low level area with your 60, but you wouldnt have the felling of overcoming the area as a challange.

But thinking about prestige rank in a new game+, a reward shouldnt be something that makes the game easier. Because the player that reaches the point for a new game+ craves for challanges, or else whats the point in playing all again with the same character?

Another thing, if nothing changes in a new+ character, the leveling processes also become a tedious process, that many players see the leveling as just a burden to get to the real stuff (endgame). Where exacly the real challanges are (in the game as it is right now).

Beond that, if a new+ charater becomes stronger the game would me incentivating rushing to the endgame again, and reinforcing the players to reach 60 again for the endgame challanges.

Thats why i suggest ways to make the prestige ranks level in a harder and challengefull experience.

[Wilsonsds]

I suggested something very similar

viewtopic.php?t=4297

Please take a look.

[Ugoboom]

Reward +1 talent point

I don't think you understand how much of an insane powerspike 52 talents is vs 51.

Sweeping strikes bloodthirst. death wish mortal strike.
Wyvern sting scatter shot.
Holy shield holy shock.
PI Silence. Reflective shields shadowform
Premed blade flurry, premed cold blood. Adrenaline rush prep.
EM Stormstrike. EM NS
NS Moonkin.
Arcane power blast wave or AP Iceblock or PoM Combustion or PoM Ice Barrier

and last but not least....
motherfucking SL/SL. but even better than tbc's pure cancer version, as SL is 30% in vanilla

As you can see, 1 extra talent point breaks many classes at various power levels, while classes like hunter druid and paladin barely see any benefit. It completely destroys how talents were designed so that two god 21+31 pointers cannot be taken together as they'd indeed be insane to balance... this one change would completely break pvp with warlocks top dog and mages even stronger than their already top dog state right now.

[Wilsonsds]

Reward +1 talent point

I don't think you understand how much of an insane powerspike 52 talents is vs 51.

Sweeping strikes bloodthirst. death wish mortal strike.
Wyvern sting scatter shot.
Holy shield holy shock.
PI Silence. Reflective shields shadowform
Premed blade flurry, premed cold blood. Adrenaline rush prep.
EM Stormstrike. EM NS
NS Moonkin.
Arcane power blast wave or AP Iceblock or PoM Combustion or PoM Ice Barrier

and last but not least....
motherfucking SL/SL. but even better than tbc's pure cancer version, as SL is 30% in vanilla

As you can see, 1 extra talent point breaks many classes at various power levels, while classes like hunter druid and paladin barely see any benefit. It completely destroys how talents were designed so that two god 21+31 pointers cannot be taken together as they'd indeed be insane to balance... this one change would completely break pvp with warlocks top dog and mages even stronger than their already top dog state right now.

Endeed, thats another point in not making a charcarter+ stronger.

[Sylveria]

I personally like the idea of a NewGame+/Prestige-System, but as mentioned before, there are some big topics in the room, how to realize it:
- How to handle your Level 60 Equip/Skills/Talents?
- What about Quests? Will they be reset for you?

Not a big topic, but a question nonetheless: What about Rewards? Yes? No? (If so, maybe just purely cosmetic ones?)

[Wilsonsds]

Yeah, the point is to play from the start. Killing a boss from a raid decided by the developers (i would suggest AQ40 endboss) everyone can loot an item, this item starts a quest specific from the class you are using or not (i suggest the same class). This quest leads you to a NPC that can give you an item. That can be used by your character or sent to another level one in the same account.

(I suggestd the AQ40 boss because if a guild wants, they can have nax gear to help more players in the transition)

1) Recieving an item that resets to level one, removing all itens, reseting all quests and talents. Maybe leaving the reputation and previous titles.

2) Recieving an item that you can mail to another character level one, the item must be account bound. That when used that character becomes a prestigious one.

Both options has their pro and cons. I personally prefer the option one. Beucase has a better feeling of progression and make you focus on your character and not having to be divided to raid endgame in both characters.

By the other hand, if you keep your previous character you can do a natural transition to the harder difficultiy as the community does.

Remembering that this loop cannot be eternal. Must be an endpoint. I mean, every cicle of prestige the game becomes harder. Maybe by stacking difficulty, so players can go to the limits of thir hability.

Another thing is, that i just now thought, an idea to make the game content available to everyone and not segregating the comunning in various segments where no one can form a group anymore:

The group/raid adpts the dificulty of the lowerst prestige player. Them players can only experience their true challange when everyone is in the same prestige, but the ones in higher levels of prestige can play with everyone and help them to get on his prestige. And the most important, just the lowest prestige players can loot or win xp in this mixed prestige group (they also are the only ones that can complete quests).

A player of higher prestige can mail itens to player to lower prestiges, but not otherwise. Players with different prestige cannot trade. And maybe making an AH for each prestige rank (i cant say how this is viable or not, but i think it is).

How about it?

[Ugoboom]

what on earth are you trying to accomplish here that isn't better done just by slapping an NPC outside that says in cool RP text "want to swtich this dungeon/raid to heroic?"

What you just described will decimate the community for such little gain in content experience

[Wilsonsds]

First, this idea is for the open world also, not just dungeon and raids. And how this would break the community? I think maybe endorsing the meta and justifying the elitism for some, yes.

But could you explain in your point of view this would destroy the game community?

[Mativh]

I like this idea. However… I have a few questions regarding what happens when a player hits this potential "Level 1★" – some of which was already asked, of course. Even so, here's my thoughts:

• What happens to all their level-locked gear?
  For example, let's a Level 60 player is wearing full Tier 2 gear. Does the gear stay equipped until manually removed because the game doesn't know any better? Or would there be a script implemented that scans the player's equipment and removes the stuff they can't wear at that level? What if the player's inventory is full when this happens?

In case the owned items wouldn't be reseted all that is equipped would be unequipped and stored in the inventory, if there is no space then it would be unequipped and sent in the mailbox.
I think only items that have a level requirement should be preserved for obvious reasons, upon reset all quest items would be gone, which brings me to the second question:

[*] How would a "Prestige" player go about leveling to 60★?
Some players use quests to rise through the ranks. Some players grind. If a particular player quested their way to 60, it wouldn't make sense for all their completed quests to reset. In essence, this would leave a Level 1★ player a bit stranded without any quests to do. Again, not a problem for those who enjoy the grind, but still.

Quest items could be abused as they have no level requirement, and adding a level requirement to all quest items would change a fundamental part of the leveling experience. Not preserving the items while not reseting quests would deprive the player doing the next prestige walkthrough of all items obtained via quests as well as a plethora of other non-xp rewards. Also not reseting the quests would leave one with few options to level up. Considering all this, quest reset would make sense. If this part of the progress would be preserved though, it would be only possible by the game making an altered copy of all preserved quest items the player that resets the levels owns, and asigning to them the medium (or minimum) level requirement of the corresponding quest.

[*] Would the player's Abilities reset? What about Talents? Skills?
This is another case of the game "not knowing any better", I feel; once a skill is learned, it stays with the player even if their level somehow goes down. At least that's my experience with GM commands on emulated servers. In any case, would this be another case for a "scan inventory; remove high-level thing" script? Or would the player retain all their Abilities?
Talents also pose a slight problem as players only get access to that function at Level 10. I don't know if it's hard-coded to always be available once it becomes available, but either way, I'm assuming the idea is to let a player master all three talents, so these probably wouldn't reset. Skills, though? Particularly weapon / armor skills? These have a cap of 300. I don't see much harm in leaving them alone, either – especially in the case of Profession / Secondary skills. I just don't know if it would somehow cause problems.[/list]

If the talent tree wouldn't reset there should be no new points to gain (but I think it should reset), the prestige system shouldn't be mandatory to gain an upper hand at max level nor jeopardize the experience of fellow levellers, but should rather be a way for the player to relive the levelling experience and provide a continuous sense of progression that should be achieved by reseting some progress that would have to be regained, while preserving other things.
The difficulty should definitely increase (by applying a debuff on the player that would balance the preserved things or for example custom quests of increased difficulty that would have to be completed every x levels), at the same time the player should feel more powerful (compared to the previous walkthrough, not more powerful during the new one) by having some things from the previous walkthrough, like the professions, weapon skills, perhaps the learned abilities could be during the next levelling be learned automatically once they are available for that level, or at least free of charge. Reputations should remain.

The core idea is that each new walkthrough should preserve more while being more difficult at the same time.

[Aydea]

What a fantastic idea, I am also interested in this.

[Azuladrip]

I think one way they could really incentivize players to do it is if they offered some type of currency you could spend. Maybe you could buy transmogs/pets/mounts otherwise unavailable.

At the same time, I don't think these reborn new game+ characters should be powerful, otherwise it will disadvantage normal players, and it will make doing this mandatory for everyone that wants to have the ideal character, which I think would be wrong for those who hate leveling. So, I think what Wilsonsds said is on the money, if the gameplay changes in any way then it should really be so that it becomes harder, not easier.

One thing I think would be cool (and also completely impossible) is if this were similar to the FFXIV class system. So that, say, if I reach level 60 on my paladin, I could restart and become a level 1 Warlock. But I'd always have the option to just press a button and return to my level 60 paladin on the same character. I guess the drawback to this (beyond a most likely technical impossibility) is that it would still limit you to just leveling up to 60 as many times as there are different classes.

I do think that some rewards as stated in the OP (tabards, mounts, titles) are ideal, combined with some sort of currency which could have various uses is the best idea. Even if you could just do it a few times and went from class tabard --> class pet --> class set --> class mount, I'd still do it. I'd love to waste hundreds of hours getting some dumb thing almost nobody else has because it's a complete timesink and totally not worth it.

[Shaman111]

If you want Ascension slop play Ascension thanks

[Krokzogg]

I propose to leave only the former name and rank after rebirth. Clean up everything else. And increase the difficulty of leveling, reducing the damage inflicted on enemies. For example, 10% less.

Imagine that with each rebirth you increase the level of difficulty of the game. And your difficulty level is displayed in your rank. Come up with ragas crazier than Immortal.

What rank is next? "Twice Immortal"? "Godlike"? "Wicked Sick"?

[Emilyrose89]

I think something like this would be cool but of instead of the character being reborn, it can retire and take on an apprentice that will be the new character made. A character that is an apprentice to a retired lvl 60 could have certain benefits like
- learning class or profession skills their mentor knows a bit sooner
- quicker access to the talent tree
- unlock different quests that build on quests their mentor completed
- have items their mentor earned passed down to them at a certain level
- some extra reputation with the factions your mentor has reputation with
- the ability to, under very specific circumstances, call upon their mentor to aid them at times. Their mentor could even move slowly and have reduced stats as they've been in retirement and can't quite handle mobs like they used to.

Over the generations you could have an apprentice character with a pedigree "so and so, student of highlvl who is student of etc..." sort of thing.

[Aydea]

Thinking about it, this might work well with the "Caverns of Time" and the "Chromie" npc. It could be a quest in the caverns of time that unlocks this gaming mode. The Chromie npc introducing the player character going on that timeless quest to the timeless journey and telling the player that if they embark on this quest they are timeless and even if they get downed in HC mode they will not so much "die" as instead be returned to the beginning of their "timeless" journey where as normal-mode characters progress as usual. If there are several "prestige ranks" it would be a bit much having to completely redo both the regular as well as the "prestige rank 1" playthrough. Having to start from level 1 on the current "prestige rank 1" would be well enough set back I believe.

HC characters that get downed after they reach "prestige rank 1" could be forced to return to the start of the "prestige rank 1" run as a level 1 (as opposed to character deletion). This could be explained via the Chromie npc intervening and the character being on the "timeless journey" being indeed timeless.

That would also be my recommendation for a title. "Timeless". Always around. And a character who sets out on that journey may well be always around indeed. As a HC the first playthrough the character becomes "Immortal", on the "prestige rank 1" playthrough they become "Timeless".

Normal-mode characters wouldn't get the title "Timeless" but still be eligible to complete the "prestige rank 1" run and partake in whatever rewards there are.

As for rewards, I believe there may be potential here to, instead of items, have the reward be being eligible to participate in especially dangerous and difficult content that requires this prestige rank, this "timeless journey". Story wise that could be quests dealing with time travel or thwarting nefarious forces attempting to corrupt the time stream itself. Things that are so difficult that only people who would set out on such a journey would have the nerves for.

There is also some potential to go into the personal history and story of the Chromie npc. Where does she come from? Is she a "Timeless" herself? Is the player character the next "Chromie" or maybe an ally in a timeless struggle? The quests in this could also reflect the really cryptic nature of the Chromie interactions and offer potential to explain some very weird qualities and phenomena in the game world that are difficult to explain otherwise. Or some stories like someone trying to alter history and save gnomeregan for instance and the "timeless" player having to thwart these otherwise heroic and seemingly benevolent actions so that the timestream is preserved.

This is a fairly unrefined concept and just what came to me thinking about it but as a concept it would work everything together ... even offering an in-game explanation (Caverns of Time, Chromie npc, etc) and still accomplish the "second playthrough" nature of the idea.

I did not put a whole lot of thought into this so it might not be a great idea but I felt to share it for the sake of Mativh, maybe he can do something with this. It is afterall, his idea to start with.

[Mativh]

Thinking about it, this might work well with the "Caverns of Time" and the "Chromie" npc. It could be a quest in the caverns of time that unlocks this gaming mode. The Chromie npc introducing the player character going on that timeless quest to the timeless journey and telling the player that if they embark on this quest they are timeless and even if they get downed in HC mode they will not so much "die" as instead be returned to the beginning of their "timeless" journey where as normal-mode characters progress as usual. If there are several "prestige ranks" it would be a bit much having to completely redo both the regular as well as the "prestige rank 1" playthrough. Having to start from level 1 on the current "prestige rank 1" would be well enough set back I believe.

HC characters that get downed after they reach "prestige rank 1" could be forced to return to the start of the "prestige rank 1" run as a level 1 (as opposed to character deletion). This could be explained via the Chromie npc intervening and the character being on the "timeless journey" being indeed timeless.

That would also be my recommendation for a title. "Timeless". Always around. And a character who sets out on that journey may well be always around indeed. As a HC the first playthrough the character becomes "Immortal", on the "prestige rank 1" playthrough they become "Timeless".

Normal-mode characters wouldn't get the title "Timeless" but still be eligible to complete the "prestige rank 1" run and partake in whatever rewards there are.

As for rewards, I believe there may be potential here to, instead of items, have the reward be being eligible to participate in especially dangerous and difficult content that requires this prestige rank, this "timeless journey". Story wise that could be quests dealing with time travel or thwarting nefarious forces attempting to corrupt the time stream itself. Things that are so difficult that only people who would set out on such a journey would have the nerves for.

There is also some potential to go into the personal history and story of the Chromie npc. Where does she come from? Is she a "Timeless" herself? Is the player character the next "Chromie" or maybe an ally in a timeless struggle? The quests in this could also reflect the really cryptic nature of the Chromie interactions and offer potential to explain some very weird qualities and phenomena in the game world that are difficult to explain otherwise. Or some stories like someone trying to alter history and save gnomeregan for instance and the "timeless" player having to thwart these otherwise heroic and seemingly benevolent actions so that the timestream is preserved.

This is a fairly unrefined concept and just what came to me thinking about it but as a concept it would work everything together ... even offering an in-game explanation (Caverns of Time, Chromie npc, etc) and still accomplish the "second playthrough" nature of the idea.

I did not put a whole lot of thought into this so it might not be a great idea but I felt to share it for the sake of Mativh, maybe he can do something with this. It is afterall, his idea to start with.

It is indeed an interesting concept, I like that you've found a coherent way to include the new walkthroughs in the game without it being a system imposed for the sake of itself. That is a sign of good RP design, something WoW lost in later expansions.

It could look like this:

~ Timeless mode/challenge ~

After reaching level 60
(for HC players perhaps the first walkthrough should not allow a reset),
the player can talk to Chromie (in the Caverns of Time), who will, on behalf of the bronze dragonflight, give a quest where you are tasked with trying to unravel mysteries in the game that are disrupting the natural order of things, for example the identity of Spirit Healers.

Or there could be nefarious forces influencing events in the background, something related to the black dragonflight or the old gods, and those events would have to be reverted in the next walkthrough, which could be a linked to a myriad of things, for example as you've mentioned, Gnomes regaining Gnomeregan (the city being an ideal Timeless agenda headquarters for reasons related to Chromies backstory), and to balance things out the Darkspear Trolls regaining their home in Stranglethorn Vale (the Timeless defeating a troll tribe that through voodoo rituals learned to cast curses that alter the fate of the acursed and disrupts the logical flow of events).
The Timeless challenges could be a deus ex machina of various changes planned to be implemented, maybe even non-max level raids.

These quests could be available since the second walkthrough, gaining in difficulty each new reset, and completing them being a requirement to be allowed to reset again, and they drop a currency item that could be turned in for vanity rewards available at a vendor for those that gain a new prestige rank, the prices would vary and some would require more than one walkthrough.

In an earlier post I went into detail regarding the kinds of progress that should be preserved/reseted.

I appreciate that we brainstorm in the community and perfect things that potentially contribute to TWoW. This prestige/timeless idea, the character progression continuing after max level by reliving the levelling process, is in my opinion very much in line with the philosophy of the server.
Diablo 2 HC was an inspiration for the Hardcore mode, and I believe we could draw further inspiration from its normal/nighmare/hell mode as well.

May the current troubles engulf us not in baseless worries and may we never falter in carrying together the light of Turtle WoW.

[Skumbanana]

Wow, awesome suggestion, I love the whole newgame+ idea!

[Xudo]

Why don't you guys create new character?
Leveling is one-time adventure. It is absurd in terms of story to do quests multiple times. Especially quests to kill named mobs/bosses.
Leveling second time by killing mobs is not fun adventure either.

Prestiges were in other games were introduced to take enormous amount of time to allow players to get 1% advantage. It is just to spend your time.

Leveling alt already have enough benefits compared to leveling your first characters.
Namely - you can carry your alt through dungeons, you have more gold, you can help to complete group quests without making a group.

I might be interested in harder outside world, which more often require group to level. But it can be done as separate realm/layer and be accessible from the first character.

I do like idea of time travelling to do more quests "in the past", but I also don't see the point in locking them behind 60 level reset to 1.

[Wrathweaver]

I like the idea of retirement.

Would be cool if there was an instance where the old character would end up on a retirement retreat.
And you can loot all their geir after a small quests chain where you strangle them with a pillow.

[Eric123]

it is really good idea, I like leveling most, but what's the rewards for that? the rewards should be attractive but not breaking the balance. And for the leveling again, should be exactly same or add some new story lines ?

[Mativh]

I think something like this would be cool but of instead of the character being reborn, it can retire and take on an apprentice that will be the new character made. A character that is an apprentice to a retired lvl 60 could have certain benefits like
- learning class or profession skills their mentor knows a bit sooner
- quicker access to the talent tree
- unlock different quests that build on quests their mentor completed
- have items their mentor earned passed down to them at a certain level
- some extra reputation with the factions your mentor has reputation with
- the ability to, under very specific circumstances, call upon their mentor to aid them at times. Their mentor could even move slowly and have reduced stats as they've been in retirement and can't quite handle mobs like they used to.

Over the generations you could have an apprentice character with a pedigree "so and so, student of highlvl who is student of etc..." sort of thing.

I've made similar suggestions, but players being each others mentor/student:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3020&p=18790
It was more about being able to learn from each other by observing, like a hunter learns pet skills.