Stop suggesting tbc features

[Lahire]

I am really interested to know what features are acceptable to suggest then. If TBC was "beginning of the end". Good old #nochanges?

We literally are on and support a server all about changes.

No dumb changes. Dumb = contradictory with the original vanilla design.
Most changes made in TBC onwards are contradictory with vanilla design.

There are other possibilities than copying the errors of the past. The problem is most players come here without any imagination or understanding of the ebbs and flows of vanilla, so they ask for... copies of the errors of retail. Instead of breaking free from this mold made of poop and thinking by themselves.

I'll give you an example of a good change.
Right now I am leveling a HC Tauren Druid called Laitfraise, by only grinding mobs.
My motivation for starting this character was 2 changes :
- the fantasy to be a Tiny Running Owl. Tiny thanks to Noggenfog or Tinyhoof's Shrinking Balm ( https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=92000 ), Running thanks to the change to Tauren's mount, Owl because I am a degenerated balance druid.
- the custom Gelkis reputation and its badass reward Batu'kar of the Second Khan ( https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=60905 )

I am investing hundreds of hours strictly driven by an artistic/aesthetic goal : to be a fabulous TINY RUNNING OWL and then RUNNIN' around in pvp maps when i'll be 60, to blast allis' butts with fire FROM THE MOOON.

That is what peak turtle wow experience looks like, my dude.

[Armet]

I can't think of any TBC changes that will make Vanilla better.

TBC was the beginning of the death of WoW. WoTLK only killed it. The only changes TBC has that makes it different from Vanilla are just retarded ones. Like flying, easier gameplay and other things that make the game easier to play for little, entitled and retarded kids who were in 2006 autistically screeching on the official forums that the game is not easy enough due to their severe retardation.

What Turtle WoW needs is more horizontal content, even as far as adding new alternative level 1-10, 10-20, 20-30 starting zones for more variety. New level 40-50, 50-60 zones. More class changes that makes alternative builds more fun and interesting.

You're forgetting end game progression. Yes leveling is great and all but if that's all we focus on adding is horizontal content for leveling then, what, just start over at 60? There are ways to continue progression beyond level 60 without actually increasing the level cap, which still makes me feel like I'm restarting BTW. Personally I don't want to endlessly level the next alt that's fuckin arduous and doesn't sound fun to me at all. And yea I could play a different game but no game out there right now has the amazing bones to build on that wow does Imo. There are so many possibilities for creating new content just on azeroth without turning it into a space game, but that doesn't mean we can't add skills and systems from other xpacs such as: sockets, glyphs, even expanding the talent tree and having xp purely grant talent points and no levels. There is even path of the titans, which was a system that was going to be linked to archeology that added interesting skills depending on which titan you chose. And I'm not saying to make leveling easier I think tents went a long way to remedy that for those who chose to use them. If anything I want the game to get more difficult and it would be nice to run more than 5 different raids endlessly. I also enjoy grinding reputation but most factions currently don't offer any rewards that make the grind worth it. But that was a really nice aspect of tbc, getting exalted with honor hold to get that epic tanking sword felt awesome.

In closing, if you want to endlessly level alts fine but that is only one facet of this wonderful game and every possibility should be explored because I guarantee they all have an audience.

[Allwynd01]

You're forgetting end game progression. Yes leveling is great and all but if that's all we focus on adding is horizontal content for leveling then, what, just start over at 60? There are ways to continue progression beyond level 60 without actually increasing the level cap, which still makes me feel like I'm restarting BTW. Personally I don't want to endlessly level the next alt that's fuckin arduous and doesn't sound fun to me at all. And yea I could play a different game but no game out there right now has the amazing bones to build on that wow does Imo. There are so many possibilities for creating new content just on azeroth without turning it into a space game, but that doesn't mean we can't add skills and systems from other xpacs such as: sockets, glyphs, even expanding the talent tree and having xp purely grant talent points and no levels. There is even path of the titans, which was a system that was going to be linked to archeology that added interesting skills depending on which titan you chose. And I'm not saying to make leveling easier I think tents went a long way to remedy that for those who chose to use them. If anything I want the game to get more difficult and it would be nice to run more than 5 different raids endlessly. I also enjoy grinding reputation but most factions currently don't offer any rewards that make the grind worth it. But that was a really nice aspect of tbc, getting exalted with honor hold to get that epic tanking sword felt awesome.

In closing, if you want to endlessly level alts fine but that is only one facet of this wonderful game and every possibility should be explored because I guarantee they all have an audience.

I'm leveling new characters because at this point even on Turtle WoW I don't see what else can I do at level 60 besides going to dungeons, raids and PvP and collect some gear, which I'm not one bit remotely interested in doing.

I can imagine different ways to have progression after level 60. And I think that it's something that is really good to have that allows people to still have reason to play a character after reaching the max level in the game and not be forced to participate in "the mainstream" activities where "all the cool kids" are.

For example the MMORPG Villagers & Heroes has a Rebirth system, which allows you to retain some things on your character, like profession, items, inventory, but lose level and quest progress, but get additional talent points and permanent XP boosts that increase as you level up, then you can get reborn again and a few more times:

https://villagersandheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Rebirth

Star Wars Galaxies originally had a horizontal progression, it was not a theme park MMORPG, it was (and probably still is) the most and only Sandbox MMORPG that ever existed. There you don't have much goals predetermined by the game, it's up to you what you will be doing with your character, the latest version, NGE, made the game more into a WoW-clone with theme park progression where you follow quest chains, but even after that, the Sandbox part more or less remains where you can reach the level cap and find ways to progress through professions and other activities where your imagination is the limit. Because professions in SWG are more "powerful" compared to the simplistic ones in WoW, in SWG, you can be a trader, doctor, architect, image designer, you can build cities, govern them, other players can be your citizens, as a trader or architect or image designer or doctor, other players are your clients, you can set up automated farm or other things outside of town that generate you passive income or resources (things I never delved into, only saw or read about). There is space combat where you can have an entirely different progression. There is land PvP where you can join and leave different factions (Empire, Rebels, others...) do PvP quests, monster hunting, monster taming, monster breeding, and so much more.


In terms of WoW and the limitations that the game has, I can't think of a right way how such progression can be implemented past level 60.

The Rebirth system from V&H if put into Turtle WoW, while the simplest to implement, it will create overpowered characters that have more talent points invested than those who haven't done Rebirths and it will make PvP and PvE imbalanced, and I can see a lot of people be very against such a drastic change.

The SWG progression in WoW sounds fun on paper, but SWG was built differently from the ground up and such complex systems cannot simply be added into WoW, be it Turtle WoW or any other server.

There can be some ways where a Rebirth system can be added, but this should lock out Rebirth characters from playing with non-Rebirth characters, kind of like how Hardcore characters now can only play with others like them.

There can be a system with Glyphs and other things from future expansions in WoW, I can imagine several only level 60 areas where you learn about these new features and perks and they are required to have in order to progress in those new level 60 areas and people who don't have this (but are still 60) can't really quest or progress there. In that regard, I always thought that there should be some kind of zones with repeatable and randomized (if possible) quests where you can spend months or years questing in and still get some kind of progress out of it besides being level 60 from the beginning.

Indeed, there are ways we can brainstorm how to add meaningful progression after 60 that is not dungeons, raids or battlegrounds and it's something I consider important, but I don't know if it can really be done and if the Turtle WoW developers are looking for such systems.

So far, the only "groundbreaking" changes on Turtle WoW are:

- new playable races
- new zones
- new profession, which is useful, but is a one-trick pony


Everything else on Turtle WoW is a combination of small changes which every other server can have and are small enough that the overall experience isn't that much more different from regular Vanilla. Which is probably why Turtle WoW became so popular - if it was too different, like Ascension WoW, for example, it might have never achieved this huge player base.

So if you have ideas how progression after 60 can be implemented in the game, explain it, I will be interested in reading what your thoughts are in more detail, but neither yours or my ideas might ever make it into the game, keep that in mind. No matter how much we want this type of progression and think it's cool and fun, it just might never happen.

[Xudo]

I'll give you an example of a good change.
Right now I am leveling a HC Tauren Druid called Laitfraise, by only grinding mobs.
My motivation for starting this character was 2 changes :
- the fantasy to be a Tiny Running Owl. Tiny thanks to Noggenfog or Tinyhoof's Shrinking Balm ( https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=92000 ), Running thanks to the change to Tauren's mount, Owl because I am a degenerated balance druid.
- the custom Gelkis reputation and its badass reward Batu'kar of the Second Khan ( https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=60905 )

I am investing hundreds of hours strictly driven by an artistic/aesthetic goal : to be a fabulous TINY RUNNING OWL and then RUNNIN' around in pvp maps when i'll be 60, to blast allis' butts with fire FROM THE MOOON.

You said you give example of good change. Could you please write exactly what is changed? I got your roleplaying idea, but I don't see any proposal to change.

How about those suggestions:
WC3-style flying mobs
Different kind of humans
Carnivorism ability for druid cats and bears

Personally I don't want to endlessly level the next alt that's fuckin arduous and doesn't sound fun to me at all.

This. Leveling my alt trough turtle content was great, but it is adventure for one, may be two attempts.
I think that leveling could use more variety.

For example goblin and gnomes quests in shimmering flats. There are two obvious competing groups and you can do quests for both parties. Thats weird. I think working on goblins should close your quests for gnomes and vise-versa.

In Mulgore you can do water well cleansing chain and hunting chain simultaneously. I think both lines could use more steps, BUT they could be exclusive. Like when you make cleansing, you don't have time to hunt.

I think that important part of RPG is making decisions which affect world or your character.

When we kill some boss in the world or clear some cave from demons, this damn cave should remain clean. It could hold more quests to cleanse it from dark magic, not related to combat.

[Einfachnurmav]

I didnt read through everything in here, but from what I've read, i'd like to throw in my own humble little opinion.
While i mostly agree with "some" of the features, that they're not needed in Turtle WoW, I'd like to point out, that 'some' features from TBC where implemented a bit different than they were explained in some of the first interviews.. a bit different than they were propably intended to be:

For example:
While I agree that flying killed the leveling experience in a certain way at some point, I like the general "IDEA" of flying. Maybe, IF flying should ever be considered for TWoW, it can be done in some similar way as gryphon/windrider in Goldshire/Razor Hill, that those are time-limited flying features and have a cooldown upon them. As far as I remember, Flying mounts were meant to be a different form of "key" for dungeons, that there are dungeons you can only get to, if you have a flying mount (or a warlock in your party that can you summon up there). First of all I'm thinking of Tempest Keep. Or Skettis in Terrokar. So those dungeons were kinda locked behind certain requrements. And instead of getting the hundredth key you were supposed to get a flying mount.
As said: I completly agree, that flying, as it was implemented by Blizzard, was not good and had some very huge consequences. But maybe the "idea" of it can still be used, but in other ways.

Same goes for other continents: I'd be happy to see Outland or even Northrend in "some" way. Well.. I'd rather like to see a new version of it done by TWoW.. but nonetheless: Those would, as the server philosophy suggests, be horizontal, alternative content to visit. nothing above lvl 60, but alternative zones. Let's say a new designed Northrend would be like 3-4 Zones so those might be alternative conent from 40-60? (5 level for each zone?)