Please Change Orc Stun Resist Racial

[Lahire]

Stop whining for such a little thing that you can't bonk orcs.
It's thematic. It's fluf. It's ok. Part of the legacy of wow vanilla.

[Likaleo]

Do you even know why Horde is the underdog faction?

why does my knowledge matter? the fact is that horde is underdog faction. orc stun racial nerf would hurt underdog side alot

[Hctwowfan]

Thanks for making everything you say completely irrelevant. You basically don't want any quality of life of PvP because you think it will take away from PvE dev time. It's actually kind of sad your reasoning for not wanting to see the game improve for your own selfish reasons. I personally love to see the game improve in all ways. PvP, PvE, RP.

The Harvard debate team called, they want you on their opponents team. 'thx for making everything you say completely irrelevant so I don't have to debate all the valid points you made' xD

I don't care for quality of life of pvp on a P V E server in a game that has two distinct realm types of which one is pve and one is pvp. I care just as much about your pvp as a chess player cares about balancing halma.

And you don't care about quality of life of an orc.

My point still stands, RPGs are not suited for balanced pvp because you can alter the chances of a positive outcome in your favor via your gear to supplement your lack of skill. It is not a skill based game mode by its nature of being an rpg, never was and never will be. If you're ok with that - which I assume you are for lack of debating this point - if you're ok with rpg pvp not being skill based but gear based, why cry about hardiness being unfair? At least try to make it make sense. Would it be better if orcs had to complete a quest to get a trinket reward that increased their stun resist by 25%? If your answer is 'no', why is it ok that someone has +2k hp and +10 crit% from their gear then? This is not a pvp game.

[Arkael]

Stop whining for such a little thing that you can't bonk orcs.
It's thematic. It's fluf. It's ok. Part of the legacy of wow vanilla.

Just because it's part of the original game doesn't mean it's good overall. Isn't Turtle Wow a classic plus server? This is the place to fine tune the experience and make it more enjoyable.

The Harvard debate team called, they want you on their opponents team. 'thx for making everything you say completely irrelevant so I don't have to debate all the valid points you made' xD

I don't care for quality of life of pvp on a P V E server in a game that has two distinct realm types of which one is pve and one is pvp. I care just as much about your pvp as a chess player cares about balancing halma.

And you don't care about quality of life of an orc.

My point still stands, RPGs are not suited for balanced pvp because you can alter the chances of a positive outcome in your favor via your gear to supplement your lack of skill. It is not a skill based game mode by its nature of being an rpg, never was and never will be. If you're ok with that - which I assume you are for lack of debating this point - if you're ok with rpg pvp not being skill based but gear based, why cry about hardiness being unfair? At least try to make it make sense. Would it be better if orcs had to complete a quest to get a trinket reward that increased their stun resist by 25%? If your answer is 'no', why is it ok that someone has +2k hp and +10 crit% from their gear then? This is not a pvp game.

But you didn't make any points besides stating the only reason you don't want the change because it could take away from dev time...? The rest of the things you said involve me playing a different game or a different server which have nothing to do with Hardiness. Dev time should be equally split between all parts of the game.

That's such a bad take, RPG balance is bad so we should just leave it. What? That's like saying my car won't start, might as well junk it. Having a passive that has 100% uptime that gives you a 25% chance to completely ignore incoming stun effects is completely broken. Like I said, it was broken in classic, it was broken in TBC, and it's broken here. Make it a stun duration deduction like it is in WoTLK (which is still VERY STRONG) and it will be fine.

[Lahire]

Perhaps if you used more time to play and less to whine on forums about tiny inconsequential things, you'd be able to bonk orcs like a real gamer.

[Xudo]

You basically don't want any quality of life of PvP because you think it will take away from PvE dev time. It's actually kind of sad your reasoning for not wanting to see the game improve for your own selfish reasons. I personally love to see the game improve in all ways. PvP, PvE, RP.

It is not only about devs time. I think it is very very hard to make changes fun for PvE and PvP simultaneously.
Holy Strike is one of the examples. Devs tried to make retribution paladins viable in PvE and completely break them in PvP.
Hunters Trueshot is other example. People don't whine about it just because they busy whining about Holy Strike.

When you make twink for 10-19, some time you spend undergeared. During that time, each enchant, each good item you get directly increase your odds in battle. Preparation is your goal. Warsong gulch is your exam.
It doesn't work on lvl 60 because time to prepare for warsong is equal to time needed to farm t3 gear.
Fresh lvl 60 and t3 geared players go in the same pool. You know who win in the end.

Ranking to lvl 14 doing afk on AV is other way to your good gear. Though it is not really related to PvP.

[Arkael]

It is not only about devs time. I think it is very very hard to make changes fun for PvE and PvP simultaneously.
Holy Strike is one of the examples. Devs tried to make retribution paladins viable in PvE and completely break them in PvP.
Hunters Trueshot is other example. People don't whine about it just because they busy whining about Holy Strike.

When you make twink for 10-19, some time you spend undergeared. During that time, each enchant, each good item you get directly increase your odds in battle. Preparation is your goal. Warsong gulch is your exam.
It doesn't work on lvl 60 because time to prepare for warsong is equal to time needed to farm t3 gear.
Fresh lvl 60 and t3 geared players go in the same pool. You know who win in the end.

Ranking to lvl 14 doing afk on AV is other way to your good gear. Though it is not really related to PvP.

I understand what your trying to say, the issue is that the change I'm asking for isn't going to break Orcs in any facet of the game. I feel like I'm not asking for much here. It's not like I'm saying completely remove Hardiness, just make it reasonable to deal with.

[Geojak]

You basically don't want any quality of life of PvP because you think it will take away from PvE dev time. It's actually kind of sad your reasoning for not wanting to see the game improve for your own selfish reasons. I personally love to see the game improve in all ways. PvP, PvE, RP.

It is not only about devs time. I think it is very very hard to make changes fun for PvE and PvP simultaneously.
Holy Strike is one of the examples. Devs tried to make retribution paladins viable in PvE and completely break them in PvP.
Hunters Trueshot is other example. People don't whine about it just because they busy whining about Holy Strike.

When you make twink for 10-19, some time you spend undergeared. During that time, each enchant, each good item you get directly increase your odds in battle. Preparation is your goal. Warsong gulch is your exam.
It doesn't work on lvl 60 because time to prepare for warsong is equal to time needed to farm t3 gear.
Fresh lvl 60 and t3 geared players go in the same pool. You know who win in the end.

Ranking to lvl 14 doing afk on AV is other way to your good gear. Though it is not really related to PvP.

What you are arguong boils down to this:"there are issues in the game so we can't fix this hardiness balance issue"
???
No
This is vnaills+
Stuff can be fixed. Sometimes it causes new problems, then Those get addressed in time too. This isn't blizzard classic museum.

Hardiness will get fixed. Becauses it's ridicolius op in pvp and doing ANY pvp changes while ignoring this one, is a FARCE

[Xudo]

There are a lot of flaws in PvP set of rules, that Hardiness looks really tiny problem.
Just a quick list: Warmode being a noob trap, sacrificing your life to get r14, t3 in the same pool as t1, useless pvp world-objectives, twinks during leveling, high level ganking.

Why there are so few pvp on a server with 13k online? Hardiness is a main reason, right?

[Geojak]

Actually yes

1. Horde has the better pvp racials
2. Players interest in pvp therefor more likely to roll horde
3. Players interest in pvp prefer to play wsg and ab
4. Horde naturally dominating by attractive brtter players by offering brtter racials
5. Allaince players have worse racials for pvp
6. Pvp players don't choose alliance, they mostly have pve players
7. Alliance gets slaughered in wsg because of previous points
8. Allaince queues av instead to get that pve exierencrcthey they want and pve epics
9. The actual pvp horde players don't enjoy av, it's not real pvp to them and winning wsg fast is better honoir
10. Alliance rankers only do av as its better honour than losing wsg and they keep winning against desperate hordes that need reputation while horde rankers are nowhere to be seen
11. End up with turtle wows pvp meta

The first step is to kill the racials

[Arkael]

There are a lot of flaws in PvP set of rules, that Hardiness looks really tiny problem.
Just a quick list: Warmode being a noob trap, sacrificing your life to get r14, t3 in the same pool as t1, useless pvp world-objectives, twinks during leveling, high level ganking.

Why there are so few pvp on a server with 13k online? Hardiness is a main reason, right?

Warmode being a noob trap is a matter of opinion. I leveled both my Warrior and my Rogue through it and it was a blast. Got my Rogue from 1-60 in like 3 days played. The grind to R14 is a slog, but changing that would require a redesign of the entire system and it's rewards. World PvP objs just need some value to doing them and maybe make them time gated. For instance, open them up once every three hours and grant 3-4x honor for each kill in the area or give a big honor drop similar to AV ending. Twinks are a different game entirely, let them have their fun. As far as high level ganking, just make friends.

Also, changing Hardiness is as simple as change the script for the passive. It wouldn't take that long to change it, unlike reforming R14 grind or implementing my suggestion for world pvp objs.

[Gantulga]

Passives like Hardiness or Blackout just create unfun, frustrating gameplay, often times on both sides. It'd be nice to have them changed into something less cancerous.

Rogues are very crippled in PvP on this server so it feels even more frustrating since as a horde rogue you're getting bulldozed by paladins and as alliance you're facing orcs over and over.

[Arkael]

Passives like Hardiness or Blackout just create unfun, frustrating gameplay, often times on both sides. It'd be nice to have them changed into something less cancerous.

Rogues are very crippled in PvP on this server so it feels even more frustrating since as a horde rogue you're getting bulldozed by paladins and as alliance you're facing orcs over and over.

Agreed, they create situations where your opponent just "gets lucky". While if fine with there being a varying degree of lunch here and there I don't think it should have such a strong impact.

[Tacticalnelf]

"gets lucky".

MMORPG

Luck is part of the game

[Xudo]

Actually yes

1. Horde has the better pvp racials
2. Players interest in pvp therefor more likely to roll horde
3. Players interest in pvp prefer to play wsg and ab
4. Horde naturally dominating by attractive brtter players by offering brtter racials
5. Allaince players have worse racials for pvp
6. Pvp players don't choose alliance, they mostly have pve players
7. Alliance gets slaughered in wsg because of previous points
8. Allaince queues av instead to get that pve exierencrcthey they want and pve epics
9. The actual pvp horde players don't enjoy av, it's not real pvp to them and winning wsg fast is better honoir
10. Alliance rankers only do av as its better honour than losing wsg and they keep winning against desperate hordes that need reputation while horde rankers are nowhere to be seen
11. End up with turtle wows pvp meta

The first step is to kill the racials

It looks like perfect harmony for every parties involved.
Lets think what happen when racials get equalized.

When equal parties will meet on warsong, it could last 2 hours long. It happens all the time on 10-19 when both teams have equal amount of twinks.
If 2 hour long wsg happen on 60, then it will quickly become less attractive for rankers. They would choose more reliable source of honor per hour. It will probably be blood ring because of no respawn or arathi basin because it is strongly limited by time. Strong teams will dodge eachother as much as they could.

Also I don't think that changing hardiness will lead to immediate effects. Even if it is good reason to roll other faction, people have to level their characters to lvl 60, gather gear to withstand geared pvp players. If racials change would ever mean something, we'll see results probably after a year or two.
More likely people will keep playing their current teams and things won't change at all.

[Mac]

Delete all racials.

[Ingameacc12345]

You're all racials!

[Lahire]

Reminder that the pleasure of MMORPG pvp doesn't come from """balanced play""" but from leveraging your no-lifyness by one shoting noobs in T1 gear.

It is designed to achieve this power fantasy. If you want to bonk people HARD, invest your life into the game and you'll be able to do it. Simple as.

If you want a "balanced pvp experience", there are literally thousands of games designed to achieve that. Go play ANY other game : LoL, DOTA, CS GO, Starcraft or Warcraft 3, Fortnite... ANY.

MMORPG are NOT made to give you an even playing field in pvp. Because they are... RPGs. If you invested 100000 hours to perfect your character and role, you should have an overwhelming advantage upon other players.

Yes it is unfair. Yes it is horrible to be on the wrong end of the stick. But the conclusion to that is not to whine on forums to pressure devs to break the design (like retail players did and succeeded). The conclusion to that is : play more if you want to be the bonker instead of the bonked.

And don't answer with the usual "but I have 154 kids and 64 jobs I can't play more than 30 minuts a day but AM ENTITLED to ALL THE REWARDS and PLEASURES of the game without effort because I'm chad in my head !"
That's a meta-slave answer. And that just means this part of the game is not designed for you. Which is not a big deal : no game is made for everyone. You are not entitled to anything.

It's this entitlement to obtain everything without effort that broke WoW : "I can't enter Naxx! It's unfair! Put it as a starting watered-down raid please! (Wrath)" "I can't win in pvp! it's unfair! please modify the damages so high end players strike like wet noodles! yay! (BFA)" "I can't raid beacause my leveling takes ages! please let me bypass all the content so i can raid with me frends! (Cata)" etc.

This is an unacceptable approach to the design which rips it apart bit by bit, until only a hollow shadow of vanilla remains, parading wearing the flayed skin of the game.

[Geojak]

Reminder that the pleasure of MMORPG pvp doesn't come from """balanced play""" but from leveraging your no-lifyness by one shoting noobs in T1 gear.

It is designed to achieve this power fantasy. If you want to bonk people HARD, invest your life into the game and you'll be able to do it. Simple as.

If you want a "balanced pvp experience", there are literally thousands of games designed to achieve that. Go play ANY other game : LoL, DOTA, CS GO, Starcraft or Warcraft 3, Fortnite... ANY.

MMORPG are NOT made to give you an even playing field in pvp. Because they are... RPGs. If you invested 100000 hours to perfect your character and role, you should have an overwhelming advantage upon other players.

Yes it is unfair. Yes it is horrible to be on the wrong end of the stick. But the conclusion to that is not to whine on forums to pressure devs to break the design (like retail players did and succeeded). The conclusion to that is : play more if you want to be the bonker instead of the bonked.

And don't answer with the usual "but I have 154 kids and 64 jobs I can't play more than 30 minuts a day but AM ENTITLED to ALL THE REWARDS and PLEASURES of the game without effort because I'm chad in my head !"
That's a meta-slave answer. And that just means this part of the game is not designed for you. Which is not a big deal : no game is made for everyone. You are not entitled to anything.

It's this entitlement to obtain everything without effort that broke WoW : "I can't enter Naxx! It's unfair! Put it as a starting watered-down raid please! (Wrath)" "I can't win in pvp! it's unfair! please modify the damages so high end players strike like wet noodles! yay! (BFA)" "I can't raid beacause my leveling takes ages! please let me bypass all the content so i can raid with me frends! (Cata)" etc.

This is an unacceptable approach to the design which rips it apart bit by bit, until only a hollow shadow of vanilla remains, parading wearing the flayed skin of the game.

Everything you say here is true, except it has nothing to do with hardiness being broken

[Lahire]

It has everything to do with Hardiness.

1/ It is meant to be a RPG theme. Orcs have thick skull and constitution. In War3 it's shown by their HP far greater than the human footman.

2/ Its effect is actually extremely minor gameplay wise, and by focusing this much on it you only show that your interest is misguided.

3/ If you REALLY think it is "broken", then the real gamer chad... rerolls as an orc instead of complaining on forums. And does the mega-grind again as an orc. Only the meta-slaves whine on forums because their lackluster pick is lackluster (in their, often misguided, opinion). Real gamers just say "meh whatever" and reroll. Because they don't care about investing effort or about the aesthetic of the game. A brutal gamer will do what is most optimal ; if it means playing a pink gnome in shorts with a plume stuck in their butt, they'd do that without even thinking about it twice. If you are here whining non stop for 3 pages about something so inconsequential than the orc racial, it only means you're not ready to accept the vanilla design way.

You either care about optimal efficiency and reroll, or accept the fact that the game is a themed ROLE PG which represents a decades old universe filled with unequal races ands factions.

I sincerely think reroll is unecessary. Because your point is quite irrelevant. Orc isn't "broken", it's only in your head. Right now, the real problem in PvP isn't orc, it's paladin made too strong by the 2 skills turtle took from the Alpha build.

[Hctwowfan]

Reminder that the pleasure of MMORPG pvp doesn't come from """balanced play""" but from leveraging your no-lifyness by one shoting noobs in T1 gear.

It is designed to achieve this power fantasy. If you want to bonk people HARD, invest your life into the game and you'll be able to do it. Simple as.

If you want a "balanced pvp experience", there are literally thousands of games designed to achieve that. Go play ANY other game : LoL, DOTA, CS GO, Starcraft or Warcraft 3, Fortnite... ANY.

MMORPG are NOT made to give you an even playing field in pvp. Because they are... RPGs. If you invested 100000 hours to perfect your character and role, you should have an overwhelming advantage upon other players.

Yes it is unfair. Yes it is horrible to be on the wrong end of the stick. But the conclusion to that is not to whine on forums to pressure devs to break the design (like retail players did and succeeded). The conclusion to that is : play more if you want to be the bonker instead of the bonked.

And don't answer with the usual "but I have 154 kids and 64 jobs I can't play more than 30 minuts a day but AM ENTITLED to ALL THE REWARDS and PLEASURES of the game without effort because I'm chad in my head !"
That's a meta-slave answer. And that just means this part of the game is not designed for you. Which is not a big deal : no game is made for everyone. You are not entitled to anything.

It's this entitlement to obtain everything without effort that broke WoW : "I can't enter Naxx! It's unfair! Put it as a starting watered-down raid please! (Wrath)" "I can't win in pvp! it's unfair! please modify the damages so high end players strike like wet noodles! yay! (BFA)" "I can't raid beacause my leveling takes ages! please let me bypass all the content so i can raid with me frends! (Cata)" etc.

This is an unacceptable approach to the design which rips it apart bit by bit, until only a hollow shadow of vanilla remains, parading wearing the flayed skin of the game.

Well said

[Mac]

Lahire has a good point.

[Wilsonsds]

i ll not read 3 pages of ppl trying to convince a rogue to open orcs with ambush.

[Mac]

i ll not read 3 pages of ppl trying to convince a rogue to open orcs with ambush.

Ok.

[Jannus]

theres no counterplay to blind on horde outside of drinking potion before you get hit with it (alliance has bubble and dwarf racial). as for targeted debuffs and aoes, they dont matter if you dont know theres a rogue around. warlocks dont run around with felhunter. detect invisibility has nothing to do with stealth either. rogues are priviliged af in pvp and if you dont like going against orc racials just reroll horde race. above is written in context of wpvp, not bgs

There’s no counter play from warlocks when it comes to undead rogues. Not only can they kick/gouge/kidney shot your fear, they can vanish into an optional cheap shot, use will of the forsaken, pvp trinket or completely resist the spell since they get an extra 10 shadow resist as a racial bonus too.
What now? Or are you going to pull up an excuse like you did with the Tauren shamans and their plains running and waterwalking mechanical oversight, saying nooooo that’s fun you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooo this is circumstantial development noooooo you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooooo please I can’t play my Tauren shaman without being to go at 100% increased speed along the water surface noooooooooo!!!

[Shaman111]

theres no counterplay to blind on horde outside of drinking potion before you get hit with it (alliance has bubble and dwarf racial). as for targeted debuffs and aoes, they dont matter if you dont know theres a rogue around. warlocks dont run around with felhunter. detect invisibility has nothing to do with stealth either. rogues are priviliged af in pvp and if you dont like going against orc racials just reroll horde race. above is written in context of wpvp, not bgs

There’s no counter play from warlocks when it comes to undead rogues. Not only can they kick/gouge/kidney shot your fear, they can vanish into an optional cheap shot, use will of the forsaken, pvp trinket or completely resist the spell since they get an extra 10 shadow resist as a racial bonus too.
What now? Or are you going to pull up an excuse like you did with the Tauren shamans and their plains running and waterwalking mechanical oversight, saying nooooo that’s fun you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooo this is circumstantial development noooooo you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooooo please I can’t play my Tauren shaman without being to go at 100% increased speed along the water surface noooooooooo!!!

for the second time you obsessively follow me into another thread, bring up my post in your shaman waterwalking thread again. you okay? maybe open window, let some air in. go outside, touch grass..

to answer your joke reply, the human warlock counterplay to undead rogue is deathcoil. goodbye

[Arkael]

Luck is part of the game

That's true, but crit and damage variance do a good enough job of that.

It looks like perfect harmony for every parties involved.
Lets think what happen when racials get equalized.

When equal parties will meet on warsong, it could last 2 hours long. It happens all the time on 10-19 when both teams have equal amount of twinks.
If 2 hour long wsg happen on 60, then it will quickly become less attractive for rankers. They would choose more reliable source of honor per hour. It will probably be blood ring because of no respawn or arathi basin because it is strongly limited by time. Strong teams will dodge eachother as much as they could.

Also I don't think that changing hardiness will lead to immediate effects. Even if it is good reason to roll other faction, people have to level their characters to lvl 60, gather gear to withstand geared pvp players. If racials change would ever mean something, we'll see results probably after a year or two.
More likely people will keep playing their current teams and things won't change at all.

I'm all for changing WSG to having a time limit, as well as other changes to make BGs more appealing for rankers. I don't believe racials have any impact on game length though...atleast theres no data to suggest that.

Reminder that the pleasure of MMORPG pvp doesn't come from """balanced play""" but from leveraging your no-lifyness by one shoting noobs in T1 gear.

It is designed to achieve this power fantasy. If you want to bonk people HARD, invest your life into the game and you'll be able to do it. Simple as.

Speak for yourself. What I enjoy from PvP is beating someone on equal footing. Sure, I believe that time invested should be rewarded; I'm asking for a change to Hardiness not a nerf to gear in PvP.

If you want a "balanced pvp experience", there are literally thousands of games designed to achieve that. Go play ANY other game : LoL, DOTA, CS GO, Starcraft or Warcraft 3, Fortnite... ANY.

MMORPG are NOT made to give you an even playing field in pvp. Because they are... RPGs. If you invested 100000 hours to perfect your character and role, you should have an overwhelming advantage upon other players.

Such a poor take. "You don't like the balance play a different game". I enjoy all the content in TWoW not just PvP. I also want a good PvP experience. The rest of your post is literally you saying we are entitled for asking for a racial change. Your confusing time investment with game balance. Also, I didn't realize Hardiness was something you needed farm a thousand hours to unlock /shrug.

1/ It is meant to be a RPG theme. Orcs have thick skull and constitution. In War3 it's shown by their HP far greater than the human footman.

Give the racial the WoTLK treatment that I suggested (which is still VERY strong). Completely falls in with the lore your clinging on to and doesn't break game balance.

2/ Its effect is actually extremely minor gameplay wise, and by focusing this much on it you only show that your interest is misguided.

False. You've clearly never played a rogue before. Getting zero value out of your opener when your fighting someone with more or equal gear equates to a lost fight.

3/ If you REALLY think it is "broken", then the real gamer chad... rerolls as an orc instead of complaining on forums. And does the mega-grind again as an orc. Only the meta-slaves whine on forums because their lackluster pick is lackluster (in their, often misguided, opinion). Real gamers just say "meh whatever" and reroll. Because they don't care about investing effort or about the aesthetic of the game. A brutal gamer will do what is most optimal ; if it means playing a pink gnome in shorts with a plume stuck in their butt, they'd do that without even thinking about it twice. If you are here whining non stop for 3 pages about something so inconsequential than the orc racial, it only means you're not ready to accept the vanilla design way.

Yeah, not wanting to play Horde for aesthetic reasons means I'm casual; 4head.

I sincerely think reroll is unecessary. Because your point is quite irrelevant. Orc isn't "broken", it's only in your head. Right now, the real problem in PvP isn't orc, it's paladin made too strong by the 2 skills turtle took from the Alpha build.

Just because Paladin is broken doesn't mean Orc racial isn't. Apples and oranges. Both should be addressed.

There’s no counter play from warlocks when it comes to undead rogues. Not only can they kick/gouge/kidney shot your fear, they can vanish into an optional cheap shot, use will of the forsaken, pvp trinket or completely resist the spell since they get an extra 10 shadow resist as a racial bonus too.

While I would agree with you to an extent, theres a key different between WoTF and Hardiness. Will is a button press with a CD and Hardiness is a passive.

[Aydea]

Reminder that the pleasure of MMORPG pvp doesn't come from """balanced play""" but from leveraging your no-lifyness by one shoting noobs in T1 gear.

It is designed to achieve this power fantasy. If you want to bonk people HARD, invest your life into the game and you'll be able to do it. Simple as.

If you want a "balanced pvp experience", there are literally thousands of games designed to achieve that. Go play ANY other game : LoL, DOTA, CS GO, Starcraft or Warcraft 3, Fortnite... ANY.

MMORPG are NOT made to give you an even playing field in pvp. Because they are... RPGs. If you invested 100000 hours to perfect your character and role, you should have an overwhelming advantage upon other players.

Yes it is unfair. Yes it is horrible to be on the wrong end of the stick. But the conclusion to that is not to whine on forums to pressure devs to break the design (like retail players did and succeeded). The conclusion to that is : play more if you want to be the bonker instead of the bonked.

And don't answer with the usual "but I have 154 kids and 64 jobs I can't play more than 30 minuts a day but AM ENTITLED to ALL THE REWARDS and PLEASURES of the game without effort because I'm chad in my head !"
That's a meta-slave answer. And that just means this part of the game is not designed for you. Which is not a big deal : no game is made for everyone. You are not entitled to anything.

It's this entitlement to obtain everything without effort that broke WoW : "I can't enter Naxx! It's unfair! Put it as a starting watered-down raid please! (Wrath)" "I can't win in pvp! it's unfair! please modify the damages so high end players strike like wet noodles! yay! (BFA)" "I can't raid beacause my leveling takes ages! please let me bypass all the content so i can raid with me frends! (Cata)" etc.

This is an unacceptable approach to the design which rips it apart bit by bit, until only a hollow shadow of vanilla remains, parading wearing the flayed skin of the game.

Ohhh that felt so good to read. Thank you so much for saying this. When you read something you didn't even know you needed to until you read it. So good!

[Garlana]

Anyone defending the racial is likely benefiting from it, geeze i made an orc rogue specifically over any other race purely because of the hardiness racial to get lucky vs Paladin stuns, rogue stuns, warrior charges, nades etc - i know it takes 0 skill to benefit from it unlike the on CD racials ...its easily the most broken racial in the game and the fact that its passive is what takes it to the next level, it was nerfed in TBC so even Blizzard realised it was massively overtuned.

People complain about WOTF, but in pvp its more situational and an activited skill. Even if WOTF does make some match ups far easier than their alliance counterparts, it does require a degree of timing and skill to pull off, just like stoneform vs rogue/warrior/hunter dots, escape artist vs imobilises and perception vs rogue/druids etc etc. You may as well just forget about stunning an orc warrior that takes an extra 15% resist chance from the skill tree.

Its been known about for years, if you can choose orc, pick orc when it comes to pvp, and as a player that plays orcs amongst other races, i know for a fact ive got huge advantage over certain classes when im playing my orc purely because of this racial.

[Jannus]

theres no counterplay to blind on horde outside of drinking potion before you get hit with it (alliance has bubble and dwarf racial). as for targeted debuffs and aoes, they dont matter if you dont know theres a rogue around. warlocks dont run around with felhunter. detect invisibility has nothing to do with stealth either. rogues are priviliged af in pvp and if you dont like going against orc racials just reroll horde race. above is written in context of wpvp, not bgs

There’s no counter play from warlocks when it comes to undead rogues. Not only can they kick/gouge/kidney shot your fear, they can vanish into an optional cheap shot, use will of the forsaken, pvp trinket or completely resist the spell since they get an extra 10 shadow resist as a racial bonus too.
What now? Or are you going to pull up an excuse like you did with the Tauren shamans and their plains running and waterwalking mechanical oversight, saying nooooo that’s fun you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooo this is circumstantial development noooooo you can’t take that away from ussss nooooooooo please I can’t play my Tauren shaman without being to go at 100% increased speed along the water surface noooooooooo!!!

for the second time you obsessively follow me into another thread, bring up my post in your shaman waterwalking thread again. you okay? maybe open window, let some air in. go outside, touch grass..

to answer your joke reply, the human warlock counterplay to undead rogue is deathcoil. goodbye

Sorry, my fault. Guess this forum ain’t big enough for both of us and this I’m not allowed to browse the forums or look at and respond to your messages. Genuine mistake. Won’t happen again boss.

[Geojak]

Anyone defending the racial is likely benefiting from it, geeze i made an orc rogue specifically over any other race purely because of the hardiness racial to get lucky vs Paladin stuns, rogue stuns, warrior charges, nades etc - i know it takes 0 skill to benefit from it unlike the on CD racials ...its easily the most broken racial in the game and the fact that its passive is what takes it to the next level, it was nerfed in TBC so even Blizzard realised it was massively overtuned.

People complain about WOTF, but in pvp its more situational and an activited skill. Even if WOTF does make some match ups far easier than their alliance counterparts, it does require a degree of timing and skill to pull off, just like stoneform vs rogue/warrior/hunter dots, escape artist vs imobilises and perception vs rogue/druids etc etc. You may as well just forget about stunning an orc warrior that takes an extra 15% resist chance from the skill tree.

Its been known about for years, if you can choose orc, pick orc when it comes to pvp, and as a player that plays orcs amongst other races, i know for a fact ive got huge advantage over certain classes when im playing my orc purely because of this racial.

Amen to this

[Jubabuba]

You see most people on the server would disagree with you regardless if they play pvp or not. Why don't you roll an orc if you think they are so op, that would solve your problem without effecting everyone else.

[Arkael]

You see most people on the server would disagree with you regardless if they play pvp or not. Why don't you roll an orc if you think they are so op, that would solve your problem without effecting everyone else.

I wouldn't say a majority disagree with me. I'd say on this post it's about 50-50. I'd also say those who are disagreeing have an Orc as their profile picture so as mentioned above I think their is so bias in they want to keep their OP advantage. I don't agree with 90% of the changes made in newer versions of Wow but I 100% think the Orc racial needs to be changed.

[Karrados]

In the same way you could argue that you have a Rogue High Elf as your profile picture and you too want an advantage. It goes both way.

The Orc Racial should not be touched until they address the Balance issues with the factions, otherwise you will nerf Horde while indirectly buffing Paladins and Rogues on the Alliance side which only makes even more people flock towards that side.

[Hctwowfan]

The Orc Racial should not be touched until they address the Balance issues with the factions, otherwise you will nerf Horde while indirectly buffing Paladins and Rogues on the Alliance side which only makes even more people flock towards that side.

Hardiness should be buffed to 25% + (%ally - %horde) to reflect faction imbalance. /s