Paladin's need a rework - a balanced Retribution

[Ravenstone]

I feel I should preface this by saying whilst I have played a Paladin in vanilla, I have not played it at high level here, but this is from observations from playing with and against them.

Paladin's are in an awful place (just being OP and overly abundant), and a very unsatisfying class to have in at the moment. The direction taken for them here on Turtle does not consider any balance for the game and as we've seen, have completely ruined high level PvP. I also believe they do not feel like Paladins at all with the changes to Judgement of the Crusader.

I feel they need to be reworked, to become something acceptable, fulfulling the class fantasy, whilst also not breaking apart the balance that Vanilla achieved. Here is my take on Paladins, with particular focus on Retribution tree which is where the primary problem lies. I don't think its anything too drastically far from what they were in Vanilla, but it is a necessary change to their core skill set.

Note - all numbers are placeholders, I can't test them. They are mostly just common numbers from other spells and could be too strong or too weak. They are more there to showcase the ideas behind the changes.

Proposed Changelist:

• Seal of the Crusader increases attack speed by [30]%, but also increases damage taken by [20]%*. Additionally when you crit whilst this seal is active, it allows you to cast judgement again. Lasts 30 seconds.
  Unleash the power of the seal, dealing [x] Holy damage to the target, based on weapon damage. Judgement of the Crusader does not consume the seal.

• Heart of the Crusader talent reworked - Your Judgements of the Crusader have a 33%/66%/100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Holy damage.  This vulnerability increases the Holy damage dealt to your target by [x] and lasts 15 sec.  Stacks up to 5 times.

• The Seal of Command proc can no longer miss or be dodged, parried or blocked.

• Crusader Strike removed.

• Divine Protection and Divine Shield have been merged at level 34.

• Repentence removed.

• Vow of Retribution - new 31 point Retribution talent.
  Increases your Holy damage [15]%. However, you may not cast any healing spells whilst this is active.**

* The increased damage aspect a debuff, like Death Wish
** This is on a shared cooldown with Divine Protection and Blessing of Protection

Those were the changes, the rest of this will be long explanations about my ideas balance and class fantasy. A lot can probably be skimmed over but I thought I'd just dump it all here. I'd like to get some feedback and discussion going, even if you don't read anything below this point.

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The Paladin's problems in balance and class fantasy and the reasons behind it
Paladins in vanilla don't feel good, Ret especially, for a couple of reasons. Leveling up, as a ret in particular, is the most boring experience for a long time. There is almost zero interaction with combat, often times just popping your seal and judging rarely.

End game PvE you were pidgeonholed into healing, and whilst being fantastic at it, it doesn't feel good from the class fantasy perspective, especially for Rets. Prots could tank very successfully, albeit only in dungeons.

Lastly PvP, whilst very strong, were again mostly either Holy Shock burst, healing, or reckoning. Ret only really taken for Seal of Command, which always had its own problems.

One of the biggest problems Paladins have is how good they are. Whilst this example is probably oversimplified and a bit of a generalisation, the problem is easiest to see in PvP where in a 1v1 there are only 3 things that really matter. Firstly, your survivability, how tanky you are. Secondly, your sustain, your ability to heal yourself and draw a fight out for longer. Lastly your damage, and in the case of PvP we're basically talking burst damage. Paladins are naturally very survivable with their plate armour and high health, but they also have their invulnerability spells. Paladins also have heals which include a panic heal for all your health, and as mentioned earlier are fantastic at it.

This leaves damage, and this is the area that leaves Paladins feeling very lackluster as a Ret. The Retribution tree for all intents and purposes should be the damage tree, and yet it falls far too short in that regard. Simply because Paladins would basically be broken if they are good at damage, as we are seeing right now. With the added Crusader Strike and Holy Strike, we've gone the wrong direction. These spells were initially placeholder spells because the seal and judgement system wasn't finished. Paladin's were never intended to have these as they were supposed to be replaced by seals. We also see something that feels increadibly unthematic for a Paladin in the reworked Judgement of the Crusader and encourages this weird gameplay where people go around as rare weapon collectors for their procs.

I want to propose something that I feel is more thematic, better for gameplay, and balanced in all aspects of gameplay (subject to number tweaking).

The fixes to Seals and the ideas behind them
We start with the main culprits, the seals. This was a last minute system in Vanilla and it shows. Seal of the Crusader is just garbage. Righteousness is just flat out your best option 99% of the time. Seal of Command is better than Crusader, but outclassed by Righteousness still.

• The Seal of Command proc can no longer miss, be dodged, parried or blocked.

• Seal of the Crusader increases attack speed by [30]%, but also increases damage taken by [20]%*. Additonally when you crit whilst this seal is active, it allows you to cast judgement again.
  Unleash the power of the seal, dealing x Holy damage to the target, based on weapon damage. Judgement of the Crusader does not consume the seal.

• Heart of the Crusader talent reworked - Your Judgements of the Crusader have a 33%/66%/100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Holy damage.  This vulnerability increases the Holy damage dealt to your target by [x] and lasts 15 sec.  Stacks up to 5 times.

*The increased damage taken is a debuff

Command thematically is great, especially since it encouraged a big 2h to bring super crits. Very satisfying and the very image that a lot of people see when they think of a Paladin striking down an enemy. But the reality is a lie. The proc from Command can miss, be dodged parried blocked, by a target you've already hit. This makes no sense and is just disappointing once you learn. It's also why Righteousness is just better. This just needs to be made unmissable, undodgable unparriable and unblockable.

Righteousness is great, super reliable, nothing to talk about.

Crusader feels weak. This shouldn't be the case. It should make you feel strong. Going back to the initial problem of Paladins being too good at everything else, there needs to be a downside to using Crusader whilst giving you that power trip.

I propose that it increases your attack speed by 30%, but also increases the damage you take by 20%. This 20% damage would be a debuff akin to Death Wish, so that you couldn't just twist to another seal at a convenient time. For Paladins to do anything in terms of damage, they need to give something up and I believe thats their survivability. This is only for if you want to use Seal of the Crusader, which you aren't forced to.

I think thematically this fits the idea of Retribution and someone bent on a 'crusade'. The singlemindedness to defeat a foe regardless of the cost to those around is a common theme of contention amongst Paladins in lore that's just not represented in the class design, and it is the very thing that kicked off Arthas' journey in Warcraft 3. It also should alleviate some PvP concerns as a high % damage taken increase can very easily lead someone to be blown up quickly.

I also wanted to add a condition to make gameplay leveling up a bit more interesting, and provide a viable strategy at high level PvE and that is the refresh Judgement ability on your crits with Seal of the Crusader active. This leads into Judgement of the Crusader which is a holy damage judgement based on weapon damage, but one that doesn't consume the seal. This is one area that I'm unsure how it will play out, but I wanted a 2h weapon to be the desirable choice still for damage builds. If you want to burst someone, you are looking for Righteouness or Command, but for sustained damage, Crusader should be the judgement of choice. At this point I believe that the Improved Crusader talent should give the increase to holy damage back to Crusader, but stacking just like the current Crusader Strike, to help damage in PvE scenarios.

Hopefully, the faster damage from both sides, and the reactivity to crits should provide a Paladin a new and interesting/engaging gameplay during the leveling experience and at high level, without breaking PvP balance. You have a slightly improved Seal of Command, more befitting the 21 talent points it now requires, which would primarily be for PvP burst that still plays like the traditional Ret.

I'm really not sure how mana wise this will all work out, but I hope it doesn't end up feeling restrictive. I also haven't considered the Santified Command talent and whether my version of Retadin would require some mana love at raid level.

Retributions 31 point talent problem and their bubbles

• Repentence removed.

• Vow of Retribution - new 31 point Retribution talent.
  Increases your Holy damage [15]%. However, you may not cast any healing spells whilst this is active.

Repentence as a 31 point talent is also pretty lackluster in my opinion and not really fitting the Retribution fantasy. Repetence just puts your enemy to sleep basically, which doesn't seem like something a Paladin bent on retribution would do. I wanted to again make the Paladin feel like he has some power, but also incorporate their reckless abandon for those around them in pursuit of their objective.

I believe replacing it with a new damage cooldown for both PvE and PvP would be ideal. This cooldown would be linked to the Divine shields and Blessing of Protection, but put them all on cooldown. This way you can't just pop a shield later, and actually makes you think before using it. The disabling of healing also helps to really make the Paladin sure he wants to commit. Since a PvE DPS Paladin would do neither of these things anyway, I thought it was an elegant solution to up their damage much like the numerous other cooldowns other DPS have. Having said all that, I'm not particularly happy with the fact that its yet another % increase to Holy damage alongside Vengeance and Sanctity Aura. I didn't want it to be a flat spell power bonus, or something that wouldn't scale but then I thought it could be balanced out properly at a later time.

• Divine Protection and Divine Shield have been merged at level 34.

Speaking of shields, I think Divine Protection and Divine Shield should just become one spell. Same level progression, but at level 34 Divine Protection gets the ability to attack through. Never made sense to me to have 2 bubbles. Blessing of Protection can stay.

This is the end, thank you for reading if you got this far. I stopped myself writing more because I could probably waffle on for a while, but I'd like to hear feedback as to what people think, good or bad.

[Artofwill]

Great thread, a lot of points here are things I've thought about my self. After playing on the server for a few months, many hours in pvp I realized something. If Paladins weren't as busted as they are now, the alliance population would lose at least 75% if not more of their bg games. This seems to be caused by the fact that most casual non PVP oriented players tend to play alliance, and the fact that horde racials are superior in pvp. It seems like the devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Paladins, if they were balanced properly, they risk bleeding players from the large alliance population.

[Artofwill]

It seems to me that the best option is to have cross faction battle grounds. If implemented would more or less solve the Paladin issue as well as the imbalanced que pop issue. However I have a suspicion that the devs might be technically unable to achieve it at the moment which is why it hasn't been implemented. Didn't mean to highjack your post my friend, I definitely agree and wish they would rebalance Paladins as well as implementing cross faction bgs.

[Drummbass]

Great ideas - refering to OP. I really enjoyed reading your ideas, it does really resonate with me. Would love to see something like that implemented.

[Elkepwn]

+1!

[Ravenstone]

It seems to me that the best option is to have cross faction battle grounds. If implemented would more or less solve the Paladin issue as well as the imbalanced que pop issue. However I have a suspicion that the devs might be technically unable to achieve it at the moment which is why it hasn't been implemented. Didn't mean to highjack your post my friend, I definitely agree and wish they would rebalance Paladins as well as implementing cross faction bgs.

Whilst I agree cross faction BGs are needed, (what better way to counter something OP than making you face off against it), I think it'd just mask the Paladin issue. Both sides might end up just sending 10 Paladins into WSG and have a bubble off in the middle. More than anything, it's just unfun to feel like you have to reroll just to be able to participate in BGs, or just get wrecked by one of the most populated classes.

[Kairion]

Cross faction bgs do not solve the issue outright, it just spreads the love to alliance non paladins too. The class needs pvp related changes. But enough about that. We have a post where op has put in a lot of effort in to give actual useful suggestions for paladin.

Seal of the Crusader
With 30% attackspeedbuff and no outgoing damage penalty you you end up with something comparable to soc but more reliable. However, since vengenace double dips the damage on your SoC and it gets amplified by sanctity aura too, crusader would likely still not getting used much. You even get less procs since SoC can trigger these too and is not subject to glancings.

So the judgement refresh will be the big redeeming factor. And i frankly see a risk of more degenerate proc playstile to guarantee a crit every 0.75sec with mcp and just constantly judging. Rather than push the intended playstile

Also, the holy damage component is an important part of prots toolkit. Removing crusader strike and not reverting the jotc hurts their aggro by about 45 - 50 tps.

So while i think crusader strike in its current form is an abomination, prot should keep access to a holy damage debuff too.

Vow of Retribution has one big problem. Holy strike is already extremely hard hitting due to it double dipping with vengeance. Adding another 15% damage does not only make the class more bursty than it already is, but also likely will end up promoting ret to the main tanking tree with a 0/20/31 spec

But i really like the idea of tying part of paladins damage to the forbearance debuff or the bubble cd. Really fits the theme of a zealot who pursues his goal with reckless abandon.

[Dogfight]

Probably some good points in there. However, as Kairion says, Crusader Strike should remain, especially now with the changes to JotC. It's an important tool for threat gen and mana regen. Also it adds to the playstyle.

[Kairion]

Probably some good points in there. However, as Kairion says, Crusader Strike should remain, especially now with the changes to JotC. It's an important tool for threat gen and mana regen. Also it adds to the playstyle.

Not saying we should keep crusader strike in particular- i think its a badly designed spell, but some form of holy damage bonus would go a long way for Prot. But imho we could also put that as a 31 point Prot talent. Since Ardent defender is kinda meh anyway.

[Ravenstone]

Thank you for the feedback all, nice to hear it is overall a positive reception to the changes.

Seal of the Crusader
With 30% attackspeedbuff and no outgoing damage penalty you you end up with something comparable to soc but more reliable. However, since vengenace double dips the damage on your SoC and it gets amplified by sanctity aura too, crusader would likely still not getting used much. You even get less procs since SoC can trigger these too and is not subject to glancings.

Yes, I didn't want to just chuck SoC out the window by adding damage to SotC. The intent which I hope I reached was to promote SoC for PvP, and SotC for PvE.

So the judgement refresh will be the big redeeming factor. And i frankly see a risk of more degenerate proc playstile to guarantee a crit every 0.75sec with mcp and just constantly judging. Rather than push the intended playstile

Ye, I thought there was something off about promoting Paladins using a fast weapon and fishing for crits to spell power their way through a fight. I hadn't actually considered MCP usecase, but this was partly the reasoning behind adding the JotC damage component based on weapon damage, trying to push them into using slow 2h weapons. I'm also not really sure how it'll play out mana wise and whether you'd be able to just spam your judgements freely. I'm hoping this is something that the numbers could fix, because yes, what you described sounds like a nightmare.

Also, the holy damage component is an important part of prots toolkit. Removing crusader strike and not reverting the jotc hurts their aggro by about 45 - 50 tps.

So while i think crusader strike in its current form is an abomination, pot should keep access to a holy damage debuff too.

This was something the Heart of the Crusader talent rework was trying to add back in, with the stacking holy damage, but it does limit Prot Paladins options a bit if a Ret Paladin isn't present. I was aware that Prot would lose out on threat but wasn't sure how big a deal it would have been. Perhaps additional changes would need to be made to the Prot tree in conjunction with this change to make it more feasible for them to continue tanking. Personally I was of the opinion that Holy Strike should become the Prot 31 point talent, but that would've made this post too big and I've not thought it through enough to make a suggestion either way.

Vow of Retribution has one big problem. Holy strike is already extremely hard hitting due to it double dipping with vengeance. Adding another 15% damage does not only make the class more bursty than it already is, but also likely will end up promoting ret to the main tanking tree with a 0/20/31 spec

But i really like the idea of tying part of paladins damage to the forbearance debuff or the bubble cd. Really fits the theme of a zealot who pursues his goal with reckless abandon.

Ahh, yes this would just become the next Fury/Prot, I hadn't considered that at all to be honest. As I said in my post, I wasn't too happy with the idea of just another % Holy Damage increase, but it did seem the most thematic thing available. Again, perhaps moving Holy Strike to the Prot tree 31 pointer could alleviate those concerns. The inspiration was basically Super Saiyan Shadow Form but linked to bubbles so it wouldn't be used in PvP without some drawback.

[Kefke]

I'm honestly against any change to Paladin that includes removing Crusader Strike and not replacing it with another similar ability, because it brings back a fundamental problem with the class. That being that, from a player standpoint, the class too passive. Without CS, your player interaction is making a choice of seal, then sitting there and waiting for the right time to judge the seal, then waiting. No matter how good you make seals and judgements from a numbers perspective, a boring class isn't a good class. Yes, there's still Holy Strike in this version, but having it as the only independent ability means that you're just using it on cooldown, so it's just one more thing to wait for. Ideally, the Paladin should be more active, not less.

[Shamma]

I'm honestly against any change to Paladin that includes removing Crusader Strike and not replacing it with another similar ability, because it brings back a fundamental problem with the class. That being that, from a player standpoint, the class too passive. Without CS, your player interaction is making a choice of seal, then sitting there and waiting for the right time to judge the seal, then waiting. No matter how good you make seals and judgements from a numbers perspective, a boring class isn't a good class. Yes, there's still Holy Strike in this version, but having it as the only independent ability means that you're just using it on cooldown, so it's just one more thing to wait for. Ideally, the Paladin should be more active, not less.

U use crusader strike? In what context do u use it? I lvled and main a paladin here. Only spot I use crusader strike is when fighting a boss/solo elite. And very occasionally when finishing off a mob that is left with 1% life. In all other PvE situations (solo or in grp play) it is a terrible ability.

[Freddofooz]

Removing Crusader Strike is a extremely bad idea.

[Karrados]

Whatever happens - it must happen soon. They have said they are aware of the PVP issue for some time now but so far I have not seen any proposed changes or anything else.

Also Crusader Strike can be quite good if you have a Priest in your group. I used the downtime where no one needed healing to smite and the bonus holy damage helped a -lot-.

[Kairion]

For pvp related changes make holy strikes damage reduced by armor (and keeping it as holy) is the low hanging fruit. It nerfs paladins most bursty spell by 20-40% depending on the class but keeps his toolkit intact.
Considering holy strike is a custom ability to begin with you are also not nerfing paladins core classic class design by doing so

I've seen they recently patched crusader strike to also be subject to armor but they buffed the damage to compensate. Meaning it is possible in the wow client to have armor impacting certain non physical abilities.

In terms of crusader strike, prot paladins use it excessively and as ret you want to stack it up in longer fights and use it afterwards to proc wf or convert excess mana in the rare situations you have it into damage.

[Ravenstone]

I'm honestly against any change to Paladin that includes removing Crusader Strike and not replacing it with another similar ability, because it brings back a fundamental problem with the class. That being that, from a player standpoint, the class too passive. Without CS, your player interaction is making a choice of seal, then sitting there and waiting for the right time to judge the seal, then waiting. No matter how good you make seals and judgements from a numbers perspective, a boring class isn't a good class. Yes, there's still Holy Strike in this version, but having it as the only independent ability means that you're just using it on cooldown, so it's just one more thing to wait for. Ideally, the Paladin should be more active, not less.

So it's not about whether it's balanced or thematic or true to Vanilla, it's whether you have enough buttons to press?

Spamming CS to 5 and then maintaining it along with Sealing and Judging, or spamming r1 CS on the hope of getting WF procs? To hell with any PvP balance. Honestly past the first 5 button presses, you could have basically achieved the same if you just buffed the original JotC to stupid levels of holy damage.

And they still haven't so much as acknowledged there is a problem in PvP on the forums. It's been over half a year despite numerous threads.

If you want to make Paladins more interesting, great. I'm all for that. But they've broken apart any semblence of balance the game once had and with no respect for the initial class design. I have no faith in Turtle to do so at this point. Crusader Strike is an uninspired and imbalanced wreck of a skill.

[Kairion]

I dont get why paladin needs to join the group of classes that frantically pess something every cooldown.

Historically he never was. aura switching, cleansing or rebuffing mid combat fit way better into the game if you do not need to use every single global.

Making use if every global is generally the easiest way to make a classes dps increase, but its not the only one.

For some people paladin was appealing for its more passive nature. Think people who need to check after their kid mid combat, people with wrist injuries or just exhausted gamerdads who want to see some numbers without effort after a long day at work.

Im not part of one of these groups currently, but if i come to turtle to relive my paladin experience from 19years ago, its quite different to say the least.

[Kefke]

it's whether you have enough buttons to press?

You're blatantly strawmanning, but actually yes. Or to be more precise, the players should have to actually play their class. That's not a controversial statement.

If a class has a mechanic that amounts to "turn combat mode ON and go make a sandwich", that's a bad class. A Paladin that just autoattacks might as well be a bot. The "Seals and Judgement" design in the release version of WoW was a failure because it meant that 90% of the time the player isn't doing anything. And then, after removing the player from the equation, the class wasn't even very strong.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that could be fixed about Paladin, but this ain't it, chief.

The real problem with the Paladin in PVP isn't that they do a lot of damage. Just look at the damage meters from any raid. Even with Turtle buffs, Paladin isn't the highest DPS class. The problem, as I see it, is that their kit includes an unusually high number of counters, and they're all really good counters. It was built to be a reactive class, rather than an active one, and it's way too good at reacting.

If you want to fix PVP, start by removing Divine Shield, not Crusader Strike. We can give the name and icon to Divine Protection to preserve the fluff, maybe even let it upgrade to the same kind of duration, but Paladins don't need to not only get the best "oh shit" button (one that still lets them move and cast), but then also get an even better version of it. Maybe even fold everything into Blessing of Protection, so they have to choose whether to save an ally, or themself (yes, Forebearance exists, but it has a shorter cooldown than the bubbles themselves), but I don't like that option because I have something else in mind with BoP.

At the bare minimum, I think it should be changed so that Divine Shield prevents using any spells or abilities for the duration. That would limit the amount it can be used for consequence-free pushing, and stop it from being free heals to full. In this case, the earlier Divine Protection retains a niche role as a trade off between duration and still being able to cast spells.

Consecrate is anti-stealth tech, and both Purify and its big brother Cleanse get to "just say no" to status effects. Give them all a cast time. Even if it's short, it allows them to be interrupted, so it's not just a free "fuck you" to those mechanics.

A part of me wants to say that Blessing of Freedom (and Blessing of Protection too, if kept) ought to be renamed and made to only work on others, but nerfing all the Paladin's counters is a bit much, and removing other Blessings is already a good trade for CC removal and temporary immunity. Especially given that not all CC allows the Paladin to cast Freedom in the first place. For the reasons I stated above, though, I definitely think BoP shouldn't be able to be self-cast. For my money, give Divine Shield the current effects of Divine Protection, and make Divine Protection a BoP that can only be cast on someone else. To throw Pally tanks a bone, make it steal a portion of the target's threat, which gets bigger as it's ranked up (this also helps with the need for Paladins to have other people start pulls for them).

Lay on Hands should also be an ability that works on others, but not yourself. Even at the cost of all your mana, having what amounts to a second health bar is always going to be OP. You could make it so that it temporarily prevents regaining mana, but that's pretty punishing to do to the target, and sucks a lot if it happens to the Paladin even when they heal someone else. Better to just limit this to something you can do for others, but not yourself. Keeps it balanced, plays into the class fantasy of self-sacrifice, and also makes it serve as a kind of precursor ability to Divine Intervention. Simply put, it goes from a "Nuh-uh! You didn't win!" button to a, "No! Take me instead!"

Now, could there still be other areas for improvement? Yes. This is just a general idea of where I think some of the biggest problem areas in Blizzard's design lie. However, just making it so that Paladins aren't so stacked with free counters will mean that other classes have as hard a time dealing with them, and it will be easier to

[Feomatar]

No, Holy strike must be removed and pala need to merge Crus strike and Holy strike into 1 ability - something like 30% of wep damage as holy + holy damage debuff and make it an actual ability, not the parody of heroic strike.

[Kairion]

You're blatantly strawmanning, but actually yes. Or to be more precise, the players should have to actually play their class. That's not a controversial statement.

If a class has a mechanic that amounts to "turn combat mode ON and go make a sandwich", that's a bad class. A Paladin that just autoattacks might as well be a bot. The "Seals and Judgement" design in the release version of WoW was a failure because it meant that 90% of the time the player isn't doing anything. And then, after removing the player from the equation, the class wasn't even very strong.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that could be fixed about Paladin, but this ain't it, chief.

The real problem with the Paladin in PVP isn't that they do a lot of damage. Just look at the damage meters from any raid. Even with Turtle buffs, Paladin isn't the highest DPS class. The problem, as I see it, is that their kit includes an unusually high number of counters, and they're all really good counters. It was built to be a reactive class, rather than an active one, and it's way too good at reacting.

If you want to fix PVP, start by removing Divine Shield, not Crusader Strike. We can give the name and icon to Divine Protection to preserve the fluff, maybe even let it upgrade to the same kind of duration, but Paladins don't need to not only get the best "oh shit" button (one that still lets them move and cast), but then also get an even better version of it. Maybe even fold everything into Blessing of Protection, so they have to choose whether to save an ally, or themself (yes, Forebearance exists, but it has a shorter cooldown than the bubbles themselves), but I don't like that option because I have something else in mind with BoP.

At the bare minimum, I think it should be changed so that Divine Shield prevents using any spells or abilities for the duration. That would limit the amount it can be used for consequence-free pushing, and stop it from being free heals to full. In this case, the earlier Divine Protection retains a niche role as a trade off between duration and still being able to cast spells.

Consecrate is anti-stealth tech, and both Purify and its big brother Cleanse get to "just say no" to status effects. Give them all a cast time. Even if it's short, it allows them to be interrupted, so it's not just a free "fuck you" to those mechanics.

A part of me wants to say that Blessing of Freedom (and Blessing of Protection too, if kept) ought to be renamed and made to only work on others, but nerfing all the Paladin's counters is a bit much, and removing other Blessings is already a good trade for CC removal and temporary immunity. Especially given that not all CC allows the Paladin to cast Freedom in the first place. For the reasons I stated above, though, I definitely think BoP shouldn't be able to be self-cast. For my money, give Divine Shield the current effects of Divine Protection, and make Divine Protection a BoP that can only be cast on someone else. To throw Pally tanks a bone, make it steal a portion of the target's threat, which gets bigger as it's ranked up (this also helps with the need for Paladins to have other people start pulls for them).

Lay on Hands should also be an ability that works on others, but not yourself. Even at the cost of all your mana, having what amounts to a second health bar is always going to be OP. You could make it so that it temporarily prevents regaining mana, but that's pretty punishing to do to the target, and sucks a lot if it happens to the Paladin even when they heal someone else. Better to just limit this to something you can do for others, but not yourself. Keeps it balanced, plays into the class fantasy of self-sacrifice, and also makes it serve as a kind of precursor ability to Divine Intervention. Simply put, it goes from a "Nuh-uh! You didn't win!" button to a, "No! Take me instead!"

Now, could there still be other areas for improvement? Yes. This is just a general idea of where I think some of the biggest problem areas in Blizzard's design lie. However, just making it so that Paladins aren't so stacked with free counters will mean that other classes have as hard a time dealing with them, and it will be easier to

So you are advocating for changing literally the entire class identity of paladin instead of adjusting one buggy spell just because the buggy spell provides more DPS than the entire class identity.

Its the same as with shaman and dualwield. Yes you could solve any problem the class has, but if you do, you changed the class to a version that has NOTHING to do with its classic form except the class name. A core reason why classic is so endearing to people even after all these years is because the classes have identiy. Its not just a mathematical model to produce big yellow numbers in different ways.

And paladins identity as a class is as you already pointed out correctly as a reactive class.

And every time people bring up dps meters as a justification for paladin dps buffs they ignore the elephant in the room that is Blessings. If you want to buff his personal DPS without it being a balance problem - remove the blessings. But that goes in the same direction as changes to Divine shield. It alters the core class identity to a degree that it would likely no longer be considered "in the spirit of classic"

But i also have to agree that there should be more to paladin than "activate Seal and wait 30 seconds" - But having a button to press for the sake of pressing a button is equally stupid.

[Kefke]

So you are advocating for changing literally the entire class identity of paladin instead of adjusting one buggy spell just because the buggy spell provides more DPS than the entire class identity.

I am proposing that we not undo the changes designed to fix underperformance in PvE because of issues with its Vanilla design being overtuned for PvP, yes.

Its the same as with shaman and dualwield. Yes you could solve any problem the class has, but if you do, you changed the class to a version that has NOTHING to do with its classic form except the class name. A core reason why classic is so endearing to people even after all these years is because the classes have identiy. Its not just a mathematical model to produce big yellow numbers in different ways.

So would you like me to address the strawman, or the appeal to tradition first?

And paladins identity as a class is as you already pointed out correctly as a reactive class.

Appeal to tradition it is. Yes, the class as implemented is reactive. However, the lead dev responsible for making the class has stated himself that it was a design failure. Talking about fundamental changes to the class changing its identity ignores the simple fact that Blizzard got it wrong, and they acknowledged that they got it wrong. They literally called it the greatest failure in capturing what a class was supposed to be. Just because they decided not to fix their fuck up doesn't mean that the fuck up shouldn't be fixed.

...which brings us to the straw man part of the argument. None of the changes I suggest would remove or even change the core identity of the class. My proposal leaves Seals and Judgement intact. It keeps blessings. It keeps the full range of options in the Paladin's kit. All it changes is giving drawbacks to some abilities that were free wins before. If you add a cast time to Consecrate, the Protection Paladin trying to take aggro just has to cast it a little sooner to hit the pack. It's the Retribution Paladin in Arathi Basin trying to spy check who has to worry about eating an interrupt. The Paladin in a group doesn't need a free instant cast heal to full, because they either have someone else to heal them, or someone else to be taking aggro. It's only the Paladin in a 1-v-1 that loses their "instantly stop losing for free" button. The claim was that Paladins needed a nerf because they've become overpowered in PvP, so why are you so opposed to changes that would have the biggest impact on PvP, rather than making them weaker across the board?

And every time people bring up dps meters as a justification for paladin dps buffs they ignore the elephant in the room that is Blessings. If you want to buff his personal DPS without it being a balance problem - remove the blessings. But that goes in the same direction as changes to Divine shield. It alters the core class identity to a degree that it would likely no longer be considered "in the spirit of classic"

Um...what? No, really, what? In what way does this make any sense at all? This is the epitome of talking out your ass.

But i also have to agree that there should be more to paladin than "activate Seal and wait 30 seconds" - But having a button to press for the sake of pressing a button is equally stupid.

I don't think that it is just pressing a button for the sake of it. The Paladin is a class that has always been tight on mana. Using abilities like Crusader Strike becomes a resource management problem; "How many stacks of should I put on this mob?", "If I start applying stacks now, will I be able to keep them up?", "My cooldowns are coming up. Will I have enough mana to squeeze in a Holy Strike?", "Should I push to burn down the rest of this mob's health now, or risk what it can do to me if I let autos finish it off?", "Are strikes or Command more mana efficient for this? Does my target have the HP to warrant both, or would that be a waste?", "Do I gear for more up-front damage, or for mana so I can have more uptime overall?"

Giving the player more things to do isn't just keeping their fingers busy, it's asking them to make decisions about the best way to approach each situation.

[Ravenstone]

it's whether you have enough buttons to press?

You're blatantly strawmanning, but actually yes. Or to be more precise, the players should have to actually play their class. That's not a controversial statement.

I don't know what strawmanning is. I'm trying to understand what it is you want to see for the Paladin, since from your previous messages I'm led to believe that thematically, you think they should be something different, balance wise you seem totally fine with the status quo, and with regards to staying true to vanilla, you have expressed your dissatisfaction with how the class played.

I asked for your opinion on what I had written but it appears to me that you didn't even read my post, since you only commented about Crusader Strike. In my original post, the bit just below the initial mention of Crusader Strike goes on to say how Divine Protection and Divine Shield should be merged, which is something you've decided to suggest back to me. Pretty discourteous and disheartening to see to be honest. I also already address how I think that Paladins are too survivable, too sustainable and now with Turtle WoWs changes are too good at dealing burst damage that they ruin PvP, so it seems we have common ground there, but this is in large part it is due to Crusader Strike giving them absurd burst.

Doesn't seem like there is much point in attempting to discuss this further so I'll agree to disagree with you here.

[Jongyi]

Paladins are finally exciting to play in Turtle.
No need to nerf or fix

[Kefke]

Are you not reading my posts, or are you actually trolling right now?

[Kairion]

Its hard to take you serious Kefke if you want casttime on consecration but advocate for not making paladin worse in pve

Do you even realize prot needs to recast it in fights that are longer than 8seconds and even for ret you reset your swingtimer if you cast a spell with casttime.

[Jammyxx]

Paladins are finally exciting to play in Turtle.
No need to nerf or fix

Yea totally fine getting almost globaled with 10k Armor and 7k hp in bear form by a paladin in BG, which he then proceeds to bubble heal to full then one shot a shaman.

[Jongyi]

Paladins are finally exciting to play in Turtle.
No need to nerf or fix

Yea totally fine getting almost globaled with 10k Armor and 7k hp in bear form by a paladin in BG, which he then proceeds to bubble heal to full then one shot a shaman.

Skill issue.
Besides, if paladins need to be nerfed, then i would petition to nerf Horde' OP racial first.

[Ravenstone]

Are you not reading my posts, or are you actually trolling right now?

Why do you think I'm trolling? Of course I'm reading your posts. You didn't read mine:

In my original post, the bit just below the initial mention of Crusader Strike goes on to say how Divine Protection and Divine Shield should be merged, which is something you've decided to suggest back to me.

Here you are suggesting they be merged:

If you want to fix PVP, start by removing Divine Shield, not Crusader Strike. We can give the name and icon to Divine Protection to preserve the fluff, maybe even let it upgrade to the same kind of duration

Here I am in the Original post that you didn't read suggesting just that:

• Crusader Strike removed.

• Divine Protection and Divine Shield have been merged at level 34.

You literally just address Crusader Strike in your response here:

You didn't read what I wrote. As I said, discourteous and disheartening.


Now as I said, I was trying to understand what it is you want for the Paladin:

So it's not about whether it's balanced or thematic or true to Vanilla, it's whether you have enough buttons to press?

I'm trying to understand what it is you want to see for the Paladin, since from your previous messages I'm led to believe that thematically, you think they should be something different, balance wise you seem totally fine with the status quo, and with regards to staying true to vanilla, you have expressed your dissatisfaction with how the class played.

I'll break down what I'm seeing for you:
your previous messages I'm led to believe that thematically, you think they should be something different
Here you are saying that:

I never said that having big, slow weapons was thematic, nor do I actually think that it is.

Many would consider that to be a design failure of the class. The question isn't how does Paladin play, but how should it play. To a lot of people, the image of the Paladin in Warcraft lore isn't as a tank or healbot. It's the guy who dives into a dangerous situation and starts busting heads, the one who turns the tide of battle, the guy who in the RTS was on even footing with ogres.

The paladin is an immortal healer and a support buffer with heavy armor, thats how they played in WC3.
Vanilla wow is the most lore friendly paladin, no burst or sudden spells, just heavy armor and slow and steady holy damage untill the enemy is dead.
Juggling between different seals for mana or debuff to slightly increase their damage is the best they should do in my opinion.
Its not for everyone, but that is why there are warriors and other classes that have more of the direct playstyle.

Watch cutscenes.

Play Warcraft 2.

balance wise you seem totally fine with the status quo

I'm honestly against any change to Paladin that includes removing Crusader Strike and not replacing it with another similar ability

You've only just started to mention that you would like to see nerfs to their defensive abilities in PvP. Admittedly, you said before they were designed to be overpowered in PvP, but I was still left questioning what changes you would like to see as Crusader Strike has now highlighted how strong Paladins were, and you provided no suggestions other than thematically you see it as a good change that Crusader Strike exists as quoted earlier.


with regards to staying true to vanilla, you have expressed your dissatisfaction with how the class played.
This one should be plenty clear already...

Please tell me where I have misunderstood or not read properly, because all I'm trying to do is suggest improvements to Paladins in a way that works for Vanilla+.

[Kefke]

Its hard to take you serious Kefke if you want casttime on consecration but advocate for not making paladin worse in pve

Do you even realize prot needs to recast it in fights that are longer than 8seconds and even for ret you reset your swingtimer if you cast a spell with casttime.

A one second or so cast time isn't going to be the end of the world. The drop in efficiency is negligible.

[Kairion]

This statement couldn't be further from the truth.

1. Spiritual focus doesn't work on damage dealing paladin spells, only heals. Meaning its almost impossible to cast the spell in AoE situations as tanks
2. Casting removes your chance to block parry or dodge for the duration of the cast. Thats a pretty bad idea considering paladin is already quite vulnerable to raidbosses burst damage. Increasing the chance you get globaled considerably.
3. On ret it still resets your swingtimer. Meaning badly timed it can loose you an entire auto attack worth of damage.

Anyone who ever used hammer of wrath can tell you how much this little bit of casttime sucks. And thats not even used in AoE fights.

[Noce]

- well paladins have Seal of Justice, Hammer of Justice, Repentance for cc. why you need so much? [also rogues are op in that matter]

- why palas need Divine Protection + Blessing of Protection + Divine Shield? rework on that. remove some. why not make it as priests shield, to have an absorb thing. keep BoP for raid buff and keep DS w/o debuff on att speed but with absorb or not able to heal up.

[Wrathweaver]

Have some suggestions so that we might be able to have it both the vanilla and a bit of TBC playstyle.

Add crusader strike as the last talent in retribution tree, in the same slot as rependance?
Or make crusader strike cost lots of mana, and is only viable with the retribution (sanctified commant) talent that reduces its mana cost by a large amount or increase its damage/cooldown.
Crusader strike 6-12 second cooldown, only does normal weapon damage reduced %, cost too much mana to be viable while lvling unless you have sanctified command or other retribution talent.
Or just keep it as weapon damage with a 6-30 second cooldown and keep it as weapon damage only, no debuff.
Or Remove it, would prefer that, but i dont think others will.

Revert Jotc to its original form with some holy damage added, reduce mana cost and buff the holy damage debuff and perhaps give it 15 seconds debuff timer to make it more viable, if thats not too hard in therms of programming.
I dont think it should add a stack only with jotc, since the whole idea is to switch seal to a damage seal after you have judged the debuff.
Could perhaps add a chance for each attack/judgement to add a stack no matter what seal you use?
But is stacking necessary?
Do people want stacking to jotc, what you guys think?
Sound meh to me, not great but its fine if its not locked to a talent or locked to only using jotc and sotc.
Might be fine for players raiding at 60, but thats not the whole game.

The seal idea for seal of the crusader to increase damage taken and increase its damage is fine, crits could perhaps reduce judgement cooldown by 1-5 seconds.
The debuff should not be locked to a talent though, and i think the suggested design will force paladins into 1 seal only.
Seal switching on the same target should be the goal i think, to break what people feel is a bit of a stale playstyle.


Add a new seal at mid high level for those that wish to use proc weapons.