Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

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Dogfight
Posts: 32

Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Dogfight » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:45 am

Hello and welcome to this post about prot paladin improvements. I usually don’t post a lot like this, but prot paladin has potential here so I’d like to voice my opinion and contribute to a potential development.

Purpose and limitations
The purpose of these suggested improvements is to make the paladin a more attractive and viable raid tank. As a 5-man dungeons tank the paladin is in a pretty good state at the moment, and I think most will agree to this. Therefore I will limit this post to issues and possible improvements to raid tanking, mainly through an improved talent tree. As it is is now, the last 10-15 points of the protection talent tree are weak and offer little improvement to the three main attributes for a raid tank: health pool, mitigation and threat.

I will try not to compare too much with warriors and druids, except where necessary. This is about improving the protection paladin and hopefully get to a point where guilds don't see it as a stunt/cool thing to let a paladin tank, but rather where a PUG would like to take a paladin tank as well as a druid or warrior.

I would also like to keep it "vanilla" and avoid too complicated talent changes or "coverts strength to spellpower" type of talents. Maybe this will allow for faster/easier implementation as well. To me the prot paladin identity is a plate tank, using spells that scale with spellpower for threat and such has a unique way of gearing and playing. Which also means we need more SP+Def items to back this up.

What is raid tanking?
In raids you are measured by your ability to tank bosses. The ability to snap and maintain threat, as well as mitigating damage to stay alive. This is probably where the prot paladin has most potential of improvement. We can tank weaker enemies rather well, and possibly tank 4+ enemies better than druids and warriors. This is largely due to Redoubt proccing more frequently for mitigation and Consecration/Ret aura/BoSanc for AoE threat. However, Redoubt is way too unreliable against a single enemy to be counted as reliable mitigation, especially in the conversation of becoming crush immune. And large packs of weaker enemies are so rare in raids that it isn't worth bringing a paladin tank for those few occasions. It's fine to have that as a niche, but who wants to only tank trash anyways?

Prot paladin strenghts
- AoE threat through Consecration, Holy Shield, Blessing of Sanctuary and Retribution Aura.
- Redoubt provides good mitigation against large packs of weaker enemies
- Lay on Hands and Divine Shield, although both with some obvious drawbacks

Prot paladin weaknesses(Numerical, but not necessarily in order of priority)
1. Difficult to become crit immune through gear (reach 440 defense)
2. Not possible to become crush immune (102,4% block+dodge+parry+miss)
3. Low health pool compared to other tanks
4. No flat damage reduction talents or abilities
5. No powerful defensive cooldown that also doesn't have a drawback
6. Lack of optimized gear for paladin tanking (Pre-raid and through all tiers, with exception of some single items)
7. No ranged ability for pulls
8. Holy Shield on GCD, Taunt requires Judgement off CD
9. Mana is a finite resource and requires a reliable and steady resupply
10. Mediocre threat and better threat talents in Ret tree

Suggested talent changes

Anticipation
*Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
Up from 2/4/6/8/10.

At the moment Anticipation is often overlooked and not worth it for the 5 talent points. By doubling the defense skill it gives, it might become more attractive and contribute to improve the following weaknesses:
1. Becoming crit immune/reaching 440 defense
2. Adding more total avoidance against crushing blows
6. Partially compensate for lack of defense on SP plate gear (T0,5, T1, T2, T2,5 and some single pieces)

One-Handed Weapon Specialization
*Increases physical and holy damage done by 2/4/6/8/10% when a one-handed weapon is equipped.
Changed from “Increases the damage you deal with one-handed melee weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%”.

Many prot paladins opt to go for a 0/21/30 build to get Vengeance to improve threat gen. This change will make it more attractive to spend talents in the prot tree and still retain that threat gen. At the same time it will probably be too deep in the prot tree for ret and holy to be worth spending talent points to get and combine with anything in their trees and such causing potential balance issues.

This change may improve the following weaknesses:
10. Mediocre threat and better threat talents in Ret tree
xx. Improves solo play against single mobs for questing etc

Righteous Defender
*Reduces all damage taken by 10% and increases your total stamina by 10%.
Replaces Ardent Defender as a 31-point talent.

Ardent Defender is a weak talent for tanking in general, and thus very few opt to pick this 31-point talent. By changing to 10% flat damage reduction it will overall be a much stronger tanking talent as it works from 100% health.

Also the 10% increased stamina will move paladins closer to warriors on health, though still a bit behind due to itemization on gear. You could argue that paladins need the 10% stamina to soak crits and crushing blows as long as we don’t have the gear or abilities to become immune to this. Bit the same as druids have armor and health to compensate and fury prot already have more health to do the same thing. A pre-raid geared prot paladin with ~300 stamina (unbuffed) will get a 10%/30stam/300hp increase. Fully buffed (not counting world buffs) ~420 stamina gives 420hp increase. Scaling up to a T2,5 geared prot paladin with ~400/520 stamina unbuffed/buffed, it’s hardly game breaking and still ~75 stamina less than a T2 geared warrior, but helpful. (Ref gear planner).

This change will improve the following weaknesses:
3. Low health pool compared to other tanks
4. No flat damage reduction talents or abilities
6. Lack of optimized gear, with often low stamina compared to other tanks

What about the remaining weaknesses?
Some weaknesses have not been addressed here. These changes are "simple", will to a very little extent affect class balance and thus hopefully be easy to implement. The remaining weaknesses that I have mentioned are listed under:

5. No powerful defensive cooldown that also doesn’t have a drawback
a. This is a “nice to have”, not a must. Although some encounters can be planned around long defensive CD’s, I’d say plan for perfect execution rather than relying on a cooldown. Maybe it will be added later, or maybe it will stay as a niche for the warrior. I.e an ability with 20% damage reduction for 10sec isn’t gonna do a lot for paladins overall, but 10% flat damage reduction will.

6. Lack of optimized gear for paladin tanking
a. Plate with SP, high stam, some int, some agility and defense/avoidance stats. More items like this need to be added from pre-raid through all tiers. I realize this may take time, which is why I hope some of these talents may compensate until this is in place.

7. No ranged ability for pulls
a. Librams or trinkets with an “On use” ranged spell has been suggested. Or stick with engineering. Probably adding an ability or change an already existing ability should be done to fix this.

8. Tanking abilities relying on CD’s
a. It works for now, albeit not optimal. Other writers on the forum have suggested solutions to this, maybe those changes will come at some point. Referencing to Holy Shield on GCD and Taunt needing Judgement to be off CD.

9. Mana supply
a. JoW+Mana from block works as it is, although not an optimal solution. Some might find us forced into using “On hit” weapons and gear to get enough JoW procs to sustain mana usage for threat and mitigation. I didn’t include a talent change for this, assuming that it will stay like it is for a while. That said, I don’t believe a "10% mana back from healing" talent will be sufficient to sustain the mana usage needed if it also involves nerfing JoW procs. There must be a combination or a stronger single ability/talent.

End
I believe this will improve prot paladins and make them more attractive, while still keeping it vanilla and staying true to the prot paladin identity. These changes will also not change the tank meta as they are not powerful enough for that, but makes for a more well rounded selection of tanks.
This might not solve all paladin tanking issues. We still might need to find creative solutions to the remaining weaknesses and “make do”. And that is fine. I don’t need or want everything to be streamlined. The purpose was to become a more attractive and viable raid tank with these changes, and I think it will accomplish that.

Ravenstone
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Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ravenstone » Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:11 pm

That was an interesting read, thank you for posting it. I was unaware that Paladins here were going 21/30, very intriguing.

I won't comment on everything for now, just a couple points.
Anticipation
*Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
Up from 2/4/6/8/10.

At the moment Anticipation is often overlooked and not worth it for the 5 talent points.
I don't think either of the Anticipation talents are ever really used. On a Paladin or Warrior the 10 defence is 1.6% avoidance compared to the equally accessable parry talents providing 5% avoidance. They are basically just filler at this point. You could probably bump this up to 50 defence total at 5/5 and maybe then it'd get used since it'd be 8% avoidance? It's still in the Prot tree and really is just something that becomes a non issue with itemisation for Warriors later on in the game, and that should probably happen for Paladins too. So it's just starting out that anyone really looks at this talent.
Righteous Defender
*Reduces all damage taken by 10% and increases your total stamina by 10%.
Replaces Ardent Defender as a 31-point talent.
This is far too strong in my opinion and just makes Paladins even tankier in PvP, whilst being something that could be solved in PvE by new items. I could see healers just running around with this talent, Reckoning and their main Holy healing talents and being increadibly frustrating to deal with. I've stated in my own post about Paladins viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5315 that inherently they are just too tanky and survivable which makes their damage a problem. This would just exacerbate the problem. Comparing it to Warriors, they also get the 10% damage reduction to them, but at the cost of being in Defensive Stance and the reduction in their own damage there.

Basically, I think their tankiness in PvE should be solved with items if it is truly an issue. That shouldn't be the job of the talent tree to fix, and certainly not with such a blanket as damage reduction.

I am interested in hearing more about peoples Raiding experiences with Paladins.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ghola » Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:47 pm

Don't have much experience tanking on my paladin on turtle, but I will say having tanked on my paladin in tbc the talent that gives you mana back on healing sounds good on paper but in practice has a lot of shortcomings. It was incredibly frustrating gearing for heroics and raids because the tankier I got the run wouldn't go any faster as I wouldn't take enough damage for the mana from healing to make the threat needed to keep up with geared dps sustainable... it just felt awful tbh


on turtle I spam rank 1 crusader strike with my busted quest sword (the engineering looking one with a wound proc) on JoW and have infinite mana no matter what I'm doing though, it's laughably unbalanced

Ravenstone
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Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ravenstone » Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:09 pm

Ghola wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:47 pm
on turtle I spam rank 1 crusader strike with my busted quest sword (the engineering looking one with a wound proc) on JoW and have infinite mana no matter what I'm doing though, it's laughably unbalanced
Well that inspires confidence...

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Kairion » Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:50 pm

The anticipation buff is not rly needed. You wont get crit/crush immune even with that buff. So imho its not solving an issue specifically for raid tanking but rather makes him even stronger as lvling/dungeontank. Since he needs no help in that department i'd raher funnel adjustments into talents that fix bosstanking.

One-hand specialisation
I would limit it to only holy damage only but go with the 10% increase. Physical dps is never a big part of paladins threat generation, but making it apply to both lets holy strike double dip on the damage bonus and become insanely hard hitting. My prot pally hitting for 250-300 dmg normally regularly sees 900+ holy strike crits.
The physical dmg part is one aspect tank paly doesnt need and similar to anticipation, if its not solving a concrete problem paladin has, he shouldnt get buffed.

10% holy damage is definitely worth skilling, especially if the 31 point talent is good.

Righteous defender
I like it. Its a clean easy talent without any strings attached. I think it may be a bit abusable for reckbombs in pvp, but since reckoning can not stack on turtle and with the caviat i mentioned to one hand spec in the section above i think its enough out the way to not be worth running for pvp.

Ardent defender is a dead talent and choosing 31 points in prot for tanking should be the natural choice

Dogfight
Posts: 32

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Dogfight » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:01 pm

Thanks for the reply and your view on this. Good to see if from more prerspectives.
Anticipation
*Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
Up from 2/4/6/8/10.

At the moment Anticipation is often overlooked and not worth it for the 5 talent points.
I don't think either of the Anticipation talents are ever really used. On a Paladin or Warrior the 10 defence is 1.6% avoidance compared to the equally accessable parry talents providing 5% avoidance. They are basically just filler at this point. You could probably bump this up to 50 defence total at 5/5 and maybe then it'd get used since it'd be 8% avoidance? It's still in the Prot tree and really is just something that becomes a non issue with itemisation for Warriors later on in the game, and that should probably happen for Paladins too. So it's just starting out that anyone really looks at this talent.
It is indeed a dead talent. Perhaps it should be replaced, but since it's there it's an easy buff to make it more attractive and provide an alternative to complement gearing. Hopyfully itemization will improve at some point though.
Righteous Defender
*Reduces all damage taken by 10% and increases your total stamina by 10%.
Replaces Ardent Defender as a 31-point talent.
This is far too strong in my opinion and just makes Paladins even tankier in PvP, whilst being something that could be solved in PvE by new items. I could see healers just running around with this talent, Reckoning and their main Holy healing talents and being increadibly frustrating to deal with. I've stated in my own post about Paladins viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5315 that inherently they are just too tanky and survivable which makes their damage a problem. This would just exacerbate the problem. Comparing it to Warriors, they also get the 10% damage reduction to them, but at the cost of being in Defensive Stance and the reduction in their own damage there.
That is a good contribution. It might indeed be powerful for PvP healers. Although it is a 31-point talent, so you'd have to commit to survivability over Divine Favor and Holy Shock for heals and burst damage.

Dogfight
Posts: 32

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Dogfight » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:08 pm

Don't have much experience tanking on my paladin on turtle, but I will say having tanked on my paladin in tbc the talent that gives you mana back on healing sounds good on paper but in practice has a lot of shortcomings. It was incredibly frustrating gearing for heroics and raids because the tankier I got the run wouldn't go any faster as I wouldn't take enough damage for the mana from healing to make the threat needed to keep up with geared dps sustainable... it just felt awful tbh
Totally agree
on turtle I spam rank 1 crusader strike with my busted quest sword (the engineering looking one with a wound proc) on JoW and have infinite mana no matter what I'm doing though, it's laughably unbalanced
We might have infinite mana this way, but at least it's an active part of gameplay to maintain mana and not go oom. Imo we SHOULD have infinite mana if we make the right play, the same way as rage is "infinite". It's still possible to go oom. What I don't like is that in many ways we need to use "On hit" items to get more JoW procs, which limits our gear choice to some weapons and gear pieces.

Dogfight
Posts: 32

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Dogfight » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:30 pm

The anticipation buff is not rly needed. You wont get crit/crush immune even with that buff. So imho its not solving an issue specifically for raid tanking but rather makes him even stronger as lvling/dungeontank. Since he needs no help in that department i'd raher funnel adjustments into talents that fix bosstanking.
True, you wont, but it'll be closer. As it is now it's a dead talent. Perhaps it should be replaced, but by doubling the effect from 5 talent points it might be of consideration and more attractive at least. I mean, since it's already there.
One-hand specialisation
I would limit it to only holy damage only but go with the 10% increase. Physical dps is never a big part of paladins threat generation, but making it apply to both lets holy strike double dip on the damage bonus and become insanely hard hitting. My prot pally hitting for 250-300 dmg normally regularly sees 900+ holy strike crits.
The physical dmg part is one aspect tank paly doesnt need and similar to anticipation, if its not solving a concrete problem paladin has, he shouldnt get buffed.

10% holy damage is definitely worth skilling, especially if the 31 point talent is good.
Ofc, physical damage is not a big part of prot pally threat. But I don't see a reason to remove it if it's already there, rather buff it to improve a weakness. I think only +10% holy damage will be too weak for it to be worth it.
One-handed specialization is atm +10% one-hand damage. Changing it to +10% physical will mirror Vengeance (although 5% less, but always there). It will then include some other damage items you can use, but it will still only buff your one-handed damage by 10% which is the same as the current talent. So in practice it's almost the same as adding +10% holy damage to the existing talent. Together it will mirror Vengeance (but as a passive buff), which is the reason many chose to go ret after 21 points in prot.

Reduced CD and damage on Holy Strike may be in order to reduce burst damage in PvP. Burst threat would also suffer as a consequence, but being able to use it more often over a boss fight or when switching between mobs might be preferable.
Righteous defender
I like it. Its a clean easy talent without any strings attached. I think it may be a bit abusable for reckbombs in pvp, but since reckoning can not stack on turtle and with the caviat i mentioned to one hand spec in the section above i think its enough out the way to not be worth running for pvp.

Ardent defender is a dead talent and choosing 31 points in prot for tanking should be the natural choice
Agree. A 31-point talent should be a powerful natural choice. As for reckoning, the +10% physical and holy damage increase is limited to 1H weapons at least.

Ravenstone
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Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ravenstone » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:39 pm

Dogfight wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:01 pm
It might indeed be powerful for PvP healers. Although it is a 31-point talent, so you'd have to commit to survivability over Divine Favor and Holy Shock for heals and burst damage.
Yes, I may actually be overreacting to this simply due to the state Paladins are in now, which isn't particularly helpful. The thought of an even tankier Paladin just really makes me wary for PvP purposes. I guess it'd be good tradeoff since you can't get the really strong talents like Vengence and Holy Shock, but I think you need to strip Crusader Strike out at the same time and give them another source of stackable Holy damage. I think I'm just very upset over Crusader Strike.

Ardent Defender does need to change.
Kairion wrote:Physical dps is never a big part of paladins threat generation, but making it apply to both lets holy strike double dip on the damage bonus and become insanely hard hitting.
I've been meaning to ask, but is Holy Strike supposed to do that? The tooltip doesn't sound like that is what it should do.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Kairion » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:52 pm

Ravenstone wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:39 pm
Dogfight wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:01 pm
It might indeed be powerful for PvP healers. Although it is a 31-point talent, so you'd have to commit to survivability over Divine Favor and Holy Shock for heals and burst damage.
Yes, I may actually be overreacting to this simply due to the state Paladins are in now, which isn't particularly helpful. The thought of an even tankier Paladin just really makes me wary for PvP purposes. I guess it'd be good tradeoff since you can't get the really strong talents like Vengence and Holy Shock, but I think you need to strip Crusader Strike out at the same time and give them another source of stackable Holy damage. I think I'm just very upset over Crusader Strike.

Ardent Defender does need to change.
Kairion wrote:Physical dps is never a big part of paladins threat generation, but making it apply to both lets holy strike double dip on the damage bonus and become insanely hard hitting.
I've been meaning to ask, but is Holy Strike supposed to do that? The tooltip doesn't sound like that is what it should do.
This comes originally from Seal of Command wich does have the same mechanic. With SoC, once double dipping got removed in TBC, but Blizzard purposefully increased the damage bonus SoC got from Vengeance not to nerf ret pally baseline. The change was done because It also double dipped on damage buffs it was not suppose do like thaddius charged buffs +200% damage dealth)

Considering you can get Holy Strikes hitting in excess of the damage obtainable by max rage critical hit Executes on Thaddius, this seems to be a developer oversight to me. But people will defend it saying it mirrors SoC and is intentional. I could not find any statement from devs on the topic. So It could be intention, willful ignorance, inability to change or simply a decision to depriorize looking into it.

My personal opinion is that this was unintentional and is just kept because it benefits paladin.

Ravenstone
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Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ravenstone » Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:08 pm

Ahah, ok, thank you for explaining. I didn't realise it was actually being calculated in the same way as SoC.

Schlaechter
Posts: 18

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Schlaechter » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm

Playing TWOW since a week or so, first look on the talents: mkay 0|21|30.

I like your suggestions except the 31-Talent.

My idea:

Sacrifice of an Immortal (0 Mana)| 5 min CD

You call for the Pure Light, getting 100% of your Mana back and getting immortal.
All Attacks, that would kill you, heal you instead for 10% of your maximum health.
After 15 (?) Seconds of burning in pure light, mercy is granded and you are allowed to die.




I would love to have something more unique, which fulfills the class fantasy. It´s a talent, which is not very useful in PVP or Dungeons, where we are super strong already, but it´s HUGE for Raids. You can counter enrage phases, can build it into tank swapping ...You don´t need any heal while burning in light, just tank and die. You can play around with soulstone, battlerez strats etc.
Divine Shield does not prevent the sacrifice part ;)

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ghola » Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:43 pm

Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm
Playing TWOW since a week or so, first look on the talents: mkay 0|21|30.

I like your suggestions except the 31-Talent.

My idea:

Sacrifice of an Immortal (0 Mana)| 5 min CD

You call for the Pure Light, getting 100% of your Mana back and getting immortal.
All Attacks, that would kill you, heal you instead for 10% of your maximum health.
After 15 (?) Seconds of burning in pure light, mercy is granded and you are allowed to die.




I would love to have something more unique, which fulfills the class fantasy. It´s a talent, which is not very useful in PVP or Dungeons, where we are super strong already, but it´s HUGE for Raids. You can counter enrage phases, can build it into tank swapping ...You don´t need any heal while burning in light, just tank and die. You can play around with soulstone, battlerez strats etc.
Divine Shield does not prevent the sacrifice part ;)
this is absolutely broken strong, stronger than divine shield.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Kairion » Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:13 pm

Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm
Playing TWOW since a week or so, first look on the talents: mkay 0|21|30.

I like your suggestions except the 31-Talent.

My idea:

Sacrifice of an Immortal (0 Mana)| 5 min CD

You call for the Pure Light, getting 100% of your Mana back and getting immortal.
All Attacks, that would kill you, heal you instead for 10% of your maximum health.
After 15 (?) Seconds of burning in pure light, mercy is granded and you are allowed to die.




I would love to have something more unique, which fulfills the class fantasy. It´s a talent, which is not very useful in PVP or Dungeons, where we are super strong already, but it´s HUGE for Raids. You can counter enrage phases, can build it into tank swapping ...You don´t need any heal while burning in light, just tank and die. You can play around with soulstone, battlerez strats etc.
Divine Shield does not prevent the sacrifice part ;)
Absolutely busted beyound saving. Berserk timers should not be extendably by 15 seconds by the press of a button of one player. It trivializes many encounters to not only have a damage immune tank but get to time his death exactly to the next tanks taunt. Since paladin also does have taunt on turtle, not even the aggroloss from death is a big deal.

Schlaechter
Posts: 18

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Schlaechter » Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:21 pm

Ghola wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:43 pm
Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm
Playing TWOW since a week or so, first look on the talents: mkay 0|21|30.

I like your suggestions except the 31-Talent.

My idea:

Sacrifice of an Immortal (0 Mana)| 5 min CD

You call for the Pure Light, getting 100% of your Mana back and getting immortal.
All Attacks, that would kill you, heal you instead for 10% of your maximum health.
After 15 (?) Seconds of burning in pure light, mercy is granded and you are allowed to die.




I would love to have something more unique, which fulfills the class fantasy. It´s a talent, which is not very useful in PVP or Dungeons, where we are super strong already, but it´s HUGE for Raids. You can counter enrage phases, can build it into tank swapping ...You don´t need any heal while burning in light, just tank and die. You can play around with soulstone, battlerez strats etc.
Divine Shield does not prevent the sacrifice part ;)
this is absolutely broken strong, stronger than divine shield.
Should be strong, since its a 31 Talent.

Broken? In which context?

Soloplay= Close to useless
PVP= Just kite that Pala, let him die and /rofl
Group Content (RAID)= super strong without making warr and druid as tanks obsolete

Its like Soulstone or heal after death from holy priest imo. Maybe Higher CD to 10-20 min.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ghola » Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:47 pm

Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:21 pm
Ghola wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:43 pm
Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:25 pm
Playing TWOW since a week or so, first look on the talents: mkay 0|21|30.

I like your suggestions except the 31-Talent.

My idea:

Sacrifice of an Immortal (0 Mana)| 5 min CD

You call for the Pure Light, getting 100% of your Mana back and getting immortal.
All Attacks, that would kill you, heal you instead for 10% of your maximum health.
After 15 (?) Seconds of burning in pure light, mercy is granded and you are allowed to die.




I would love to have something more unique, which fulfills the class fantasy. It´s a talent, which is not very useful in PVP or Dungeons, where we are super strong already, but it´s HUGE for Raids. You can counter enrage phases, can build it into tank swapping ...You don´t need any heal while burning in light, just tank and die. You can play around with soulstone, battlerez strats etc.
Divine Shield does not prevent the sacrifice part ;)
this is absolutely broken strong, stronger than divine shield.
Should be strong, since its a 31 Talent.

Broken? In which context?

Soloplay= Close to useless
PVP= Just kite that Pala, let him die and /rofl
Group Content (RAID)= super strong without making warr and druid as tanks obsolete

Its like Soulstone or heal after death from holy priest imo. Maybe Higher CD to 10-20 min.
well, since you asked:

you're assuming ret pallies would use this or something in pvp but this talent is so strong if you're a healing paladin you'd be dumb not to take a 15 second no die button which also heals you and gives you full mana. forget about illumination, prot is now bis healing tree

not making warr and druid obsolete? this ability would let you completely ignore mechanics without you dropping threat, it would be the strongest defensive cooldown by a long long shot

soulstone completely wipes your threat, this is entirely different

im assuming you meant to include some "sacrifice" element that you forgot to explain, but I fail to see the point of it healing you if it kills you when it ends

and if it does kill you and you get brezzed or take soulstone, you are no longer a tank because there's no way you're catching up on threat on untauntable bosses

Schlaechter
Posts: 18

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Schlaechter » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:09 pm

Oh yeah, thats the big trade Off: MT dead at the End. So the Boss has to die within the Immortal Phase or the OT has to Finish. Nothing should prevent you from Death at the End.

And yes, you can trick it with SS or Brezz, but thats Not that useful (threat reset).

I was thinking of a unique talent, which gives an Advantage in raid environment without OP ing in other aspects of the Game.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Ghola » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:35 pm

Schlaechter wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:09 pm
Oh yeah, thats the big trade Off: MT dead at the End. So the Boss has to die within the Immortal Phase or the OT has to Finish. Nothing should prevent you from Death at the End.

And yes, you can trick it with SS or Brezz, but thats Not that useful (threat reset).

I was thinking of a unique talent, which gives an Advantage in raid environment without OP ing in other aspects of the Game.
ok so if you die at the end why does it heal you

and the whole point of defensive cooldowns are to prevent your death, the only time this could be useful is enrage timers which are designed not to be survived

you could either tranq shot...or kill your main tank?

huhus the only boss with any use case I can think of and if all your dps dies as well it won't do you any good

Mekunekud
Posts: 67

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Mekunekud » Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:19 pm

The "die at the end" skill seems more like a Final Fantasy XIV skill. Pretty sure the Gunblade guys have that as their "oh no" cooldown or something similar.
I think what Paladins need is for Blessing of Sanctuary to be rolled into another talent, given a taunt that does some damage as a pulling tool in their 11 pointer and Argent Defender to be replaced with a Consecration modifier that lowers AP and attack speed so Paladins have a way to achieve it without using either Dream's Herald or the mace from Zul'Farrak.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Prot paladin talent improvements, a suggestion

Post by Kairion » Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:51 pm

Mekunekud wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:19 pm
The "die at the end" skill seems more like a Final Fantasy XIV skill. Pretty sure the Gunblade guys have that as their "oh no" cooldown or something similar.
I think what Paladins need is for Blessing of Sanctuary to be rolled into another talent, given a taunt that does some damage as a pulling tool in their 11 pointer and Argent Defender to be replaced with a Consecration modifier that lowers AP and attack speed so Paladins have a way to achieve it without using either Dream's Herald or the mace from Zul'Farrak.
If you want to slow attackspeed you can use icy chill weaponenchant or the weapon frostguard - with SoR procing the stuff for you the uptime should be reasonably good. (Or you get really lucky and pick up TF)
I think more and more Holy shocks offensive component should be part of the Prot tree. 31/20/0 is amazing for tanking dungeons mainly because holy shock is so amazing for pulling and burst aggro, but not even having holy shield is a bit too detremental for a raidtank

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