Duel Wielding For Shaman

[Bigsmerf]

I think it'd be pretty cool to see implemented. I've heard the devs tested and said it would end up with a DPS loss, but the option still being there doesn't hurt. I'm not particularly asking for it, because the turtle team is already putting tons of work into other stuff, but I thought it might be a fun thing to bring up or discuss. Thoughts?

[Charanko]

I think it'd be pretty cool to see implemented. I've heard the devs tested and said it would end up with a DPS loss, but the option still being there doesn't hurt. I'm not particularly asking for it, because the turtle team is already putting tons of work into other stuff, but I thought it might be a fun thing to bring up or discuss. Thoughts?

The option wouldnt hurt since you are just sacrificing tankiness from a shield for a little more dps ;not a big dead to not allow it or at least let people try it out

[Deeno]

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[Geojak]

Shaman should not be primary physical dmg imo. Especially if dual wielding that woild just make em rogues.

Imo dual wield is a great idea, just don't add the tbc hit talent that was so busted it made 2h obsolete.

I would imagine shaman work like this.

You put flametongue buff on both your dual wield weapons. Then you stack hybrid gear including sp and then you drop wf totem which should stack too.

Make wf totem stack with all imbues expect wf imbue. Make ft totem stack with all imubed extepct flametongue. This will give enhance shamans the boost they need and make things more intersting

Technically you would turn wf and ft totem into buffs instead of temporary on weapon enchants. This will also make sharpening stones etc relevant and buff other classes too. Rogues could use poisons again in raids

[Kirric]

Please no, it was a stupid thing they introduced in WotLK (if I remember correctly)
It was never a part of shaman lore or shaman spirit. The reason being that warriors now dual wield 2h in each hand, and so now no one uses off-hand weapons except rogues "so let's just make shamans into rogues lol"

At lasts 2h wield made sense with far seers using staffs and Thrall using a huge hammer, and had been cemented into lore through vanilla/TBC.

[Karrados]

Please no, it was a stupid thing they introduced in WotLK (if I remember correctly)
It was never a part of shaman lore or shaman spirit. The reason being that warriors now dual wield 2h in each hand, and so now no one uses off-hand weapons except rogues "so let's just make shamans into rogues lol"

At lasts 2h wield made sense with far seers using staffs and Thrall using a huge hammer, and had been cemented into lore through vanilla/TBC.

Dual wield was a TBC thing.

I did not like it, We went from those slow and heavy hits to quick rapid hits.

[Kirric]

My bad, was just about to correct it, it was TBC as you say.

Still I agree, the whole satisfying thing with big hits and wf just fizzled into tiny pokes.

[Kairion]

There are quite a few reasons why dualwield on shaman is probably not a good idea.

1. In classic weapon imbues always only hit the mainhand.
2. Stromstrike uses only one weapon
3. Enhancers have a really difficault time stacking all the stats they need as is. Adding a massive 27% misschance for whitehits due to dualwielding makes this even harder.
4. There are caster & healerweapons that can be wielded in the offhand, and even if not, caster enchants can be thrown on an offhand weapon. Restos spec enhancer for bloodlust anyway. Dualwield https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=21839 + https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=23056 with double enchants for 535 addheal just from weaponslots alone...
5. Onehanded melee weapons are usually more in demand as is, since Hunters, Rogues and Warriors all prefer onehanders. Only paladins want twohanders. By making twohanders less desirable and onehanders more desirable, you exasturbate this problem.
6. Rockbiter in classic has a threatbonus that is applied to every hit. you might create a tank that can outthreat a fury prot dw warrior. (That would be kinda fun however)
7. Its not actually solving the bad dps problem - Dualwield itself doesn't make enhancer good. What made him good in tbc were all the supporting talents like massive amounts of Hit. The only realistic improvement is being better against non bosses and increased manaregeneration from Jow

It actually has biger implications for resto than for enhancer :D

I'd much rather see some love for twohander shaman being added than the cloudchasing that is dualwield

[Deeno]

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[Nixodrius]

Actually if I recall correctly shaman was either 1h hammer plus spell (Thrall) or fist plus spell (unit). However there was one notable exception on favor of dual wielding, Drek'thar, WHO was dual wielding swords, but i would put IT into character uniqueness rather than shaman base. For me it should remain as is because it may be to difficult to balance things out through patches od TWoW

[Geojak]

Kairion is right dual wield brings morw problems. Just fux enhace dps with a 2h

[Charanko]

No one said dont fix 2h,just make dw an option,how strong it is…let the players decide…
And yes the weapon enchants should maybe become self buffs and at least 10 min long…so you can stack them with wf totem;think that would do a lot for shaman dps,with minimal work… but dunno what happens when have wf and then wf totem also; ur weapon flyes away i guess

[Geojak]

No one said dont fix 2h,just make dw an option,how strong it is…let the players decide…
And yes the weapon enchants should maybe become self buffs and at least 10 min long…so you can stack them with wf totem;think that would do a lot for shaman dps,with minimal work… but dunno what happens when have wf and then wf totem also; ur weapon flyes away i guess

You would make wf totem and wf imbue don't stack and ft totem and ft imbue don't stack but every other combo is fair game.

And make the totems buffs not the shaman self buffs thaz wax other classes benefit too like rogues can use poison plus wf totem.

Will be great

[Charanko]

No one said dont fix 2h,just make dw an option,how strong it is…let the players decide…
And yes the weapon enchants should maybe become self buffs and at least 10 min long…so you can stack them with wf totem;think that would do a lot for shaman dps,with minimal work… but dunno what happens when have wf and then wf totem also; ur weapon flyes away i guess

You would make wf totem and wf imbue don't stack and ft totem and ft imbue don't stack but every other combo is fair game.

And make the totems buffs not the shaman self buffs thaz wax other classes benefit too like rogues can use poison plus wf totem.

Will be great

Agree i think this would be the simplest bump to shaman dps :))
Now who do we need to msg to get this implemented :))

[Roflstoffl]

Do it!
DW for PvE
2h for PVP

[Eskanour]

Agree Do it please!

[Harkus]

Sure but keep 2H as a viable option, Thrall uses Doomhammer, not two sticks to poke at his enemies

[Rewolt]

Doomhammer is 1h

[Xudo]

If you want more DPS, you could just ask for +30% DPS buff for two handers.
Why would you want be involved in dual-wield?
It will change your itemisation priorities from +8% hit to +24% hit. Assuming that items have strict stat budget, you might end up with same damage output. because you lose ap,strengh and agility.
You also would compete with fury warriors for 1h axes (because we all know which race will you choose for ench).

[Jstansberry]

Dual wield is cool but itemization for enhancement is already really rough and making them require even more %hit on their gear is only going to make it worse. Fix their scaling by either moving the Nature's Guidance hit talent to enhancement or providing an alternative. A decent amount of enhancement damage is still spell damage so the spell hit from that talent is also quite important. Totemic Mastery is also something that could be moved out of resto, maybe even just made baseline, that would help enhancement quite a bit. Enhancement talents that buff totems are so weak that you could probably just replace them with talents that improve the shaman's damage/utility in other ways rather than bother with making them worthwhile. Guardian Totems, Enhancing Totems, and Improved Weapon Totems are laughably bad. Improved Ghost Wolf should be baseline. Improved Lightning Shield and Thunderhead are also awful and are never picked.

Some buffs that could be done without touching the talent tree would be reducing Stormstrike cooldown from 12 seconds to 8-10 seconds (maybe give it a spellpower coefficient, too) and adding a Slam-like ability that has a cast bar and guarantees a WF proc. This ability may sound ridiculous on paper, but keep in mind that shamans have no hard cc in their kit and Slam can not be cast while moving - meaning enhancement would have access to much higher dps in pve while only being made stronger in pvp with the help of another player providing hard CC.

Before anyone says that this sounds like giving enhancement way too much, consider what feral druids and paladins have been granted in terms of new tools. I doubt enhancement would be at the same level as those two in pvp even with all the aforementioned changes.

[Charanko]

Sure but keep 2H as a viable option, Thrall uses Doomhammer, not two sticks to poke at his enemies

thrall is also wearing plate x)

[Harkus]

Sure but keep 2H as a viable option, Thrall uses Doomhammer, not two sticks to poke at his enemies

thrall is also wearing plate x)

Yes, let shamans wear plate!
But the classic Warcraft III shaman uses one (big) weapon, so I would like to preserve that at least and not force dual wield on anybody

[Charanko]

Sure but keep 2H as a viable option, Thrall uses Doomhammer, not two sticks to poke at his enemies

thrall is also wearing plate x)

Yes, let shamans wear plate!
But the classic Warcraft III shaman uses one (big) weapon, so I would like to preserve that at least and not force dual wield on anybody

tbh i wouldnt want to take 2h away ... just maybe add some variety with dual w... haha yea 31 talent enhance... PLATE! x')

[Auroradance]

The status of enhancement shamans in riad is very awkward, and few raid teams are willing to bring enhancement shamans. In order to increase the diversity of the game, this will be a problem that needs to be solved. There are two ways worth considering:

1. Increase and enhance the team BUFF ability of shamans, such as changing the Bloodthirst effect to Team effect

2. Enhance and enhance the DPS of the shaman itself, such as the ability to consume water shields with the Chaotic Dance talent.

[Ghola]

everything that dual wield brings to the table can be fixed with other buffs, while adding dual wield would certainly require a lot of adjustments to make dualwielding ele/resto shamans not unbalanced

main arguments for dual wield ive heard are
1. second crusader enchant - could be something akin to unleashed rage
2. 2nd weapon imbue/ele sharpening stone - could buff elemental weapons

the main reason warriors choose to dual wield is because of rage generation, if rogues could use a 2hander im pretty sure they would benefit more from that

I don't really understand the hard on for dual wield, without synergy it would be less than a bandaid

[Thefnom]

While I think DW is a fun thing, won't it simply end up being resto shamans and ele shamans with 2x healing/2x SP weapons? That, or implement it only for a certain type of weapons (fist, but how fun is that?)
Enhancement still suffers from >70% of their damage being auto hits with eventual procs of WF.

I believe synergies is where it lies for shamans - much like the buff that paladins got on Twow. Sure, they were a bit over tuned, but it must be the most played class on the server, and for good reason. Why not do the same thing for shamans? Give us an instant attack which does *something* good for other shamans (nature dmg stacking up to 15% like scorch?) much like any other class works.
SP -> Increases shadow damage
Mage -> Increases fire/frost dmg
Paladin -> Holy
Warlock -> anything but nature :v

[Zenrei02]

The main Dual Wield problem (beyond the lore) was that once they introduced it, there was no choice but to DW. Flame Lash only worked with an off-hand and the added hit to offset the extra miss chance put it ahead of 2h.

If Dual Wield is going to be a thing, it should be a secondary spec within the enhancement tree just like with rogues. Split it into 2h and dw (and if they want to put in a tank spec, 1h with a shield). Add one or two more talents to bolster and solidify the choice and now you've got an enhancement tree with a more solid focus.

[Blondboombox]

There are quite a few reasons why dualwield on shaman is probably not a good idea.

1. In classic weapon imbues always only hit the mainhand.
2. Stromstrike uses only one weapon
3. Enhancers have a really difficault time stacking all the stats they need as is. Adding a massive 27% misschance for whitehits due to dualwielding makes this even harder.
4. There are caster & healerweapons that can be wielded in the offhand, and even if not, caster enchants can be thrown on an offhand weapon. Restos spec enhancer for bloodlust anyway. Dualwield https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=21839 + https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=23056 with double enchants for 535 addheal just from weaponslots alone...
5. Onehanded melee weapons are usually more in demand as is, since Hunters, Rogues and Warriors all prefer onehanders. Only paladins want twohanders. By making twohanders less desirable and onehanders more desirable, you exasturbate this problem.
6. Rockbiter in classic has a threatbonus that is applied to every hit. you might create a tank that can outthreat a fury prot dw warrior. (That would be kinda fun however)
7. Its not actually solving the bad dps problem - Dualwield itself doesn't make enhancer good. What made him good in tbc were all the supporting talents like massive amounts of Hit. The only realistic improvement is being better against non bosses and increased manaregeneration from Jow

It actually has biger implications for resto than for enhancer :D

I'd much rather see some love for twohander shaman being added than the cloudchasing that is dualwield

Exactly! No DW please

[Shammylover67]

I think it'd be pretty cool to see implemented. I've heard the devs tested and said it would end up with a DPS loss, but the option still being there doesn't hurt. I'm not particularly asking for it, because the turtle team is already putting tons of work into other stuff, but I thought it might be a fun thing to bring up or discuss. Thoughts?

Make a 4-stack version of maelstrom weapon. While wielding a 2-hander, you proc 2 stacks at a time. Epic solution. Each stack could give 25% increased spell casting speed and maybe 3% increased attack speed per stack while it’s still active.

[Batey9]

I only really want DW on my shaman because I want to DW fists and punch stuff at mach 10. I honestly do not care if it's a dps nerf, overall. Don't make it a talent. Just let them train it at their trainer like Rogues and don't attach some BS talents to it. So you can just do it if you want to and it comes at no impact to 2h. Enh shaman are shit dps as it is, anyway. Raids already don't care because they only give a shit about WF twisting.

edit: DW would also allow for more JoW triggers thus giving Enh shamans the ability to sustain better. Which, is a shitty way to solve the sustain problem but it at least does something.

[Glipo]

my opinion about dw is that its bad idea to just add dw. If add dw to enha then give a talets like increase off hand damag, give some +hit talent and some + weapon skill talent or even +melee crit damage talent coz without all this we gonna be fuckt up ( 27% hard hit cap if for boss target and shaman have 3% +hit and u need go restro for this one also we have +0 stats from talents if compre to other dps specs ) why just to not spread enha spec to 3 parts like give to tank hance an elemetal earth form what will decrease dome take, give for suporthance a scale from spirit like all totems give additional stats from shaman spirit and give flat +damage to usual enha like (spirit weapons) gives 1% max mana per hit and gives +10 to weapon skill +decrease tons of threat and arrow down from it with talent (ritual of soulbinding weapon ) what makes u increase melee crit damage and chanse of wf proc

[Manletow]

Improved Lightning Shield and Thunderhead are also awful and are never picked.

Some buffs that could be done without touching the talent tree would be reducing Stormstrike cooldown from 12 seconds to 8-10 seconds (maybe give it a spellpower coefficient, too)

add a Slam-like ability that has a cast bar and guarantees a WF proc.
This may sound ridiculous
But consider what paladins have been granted in terms of new tools.

Those talents are not 'awful' more like 'mediocre'. They are at least good enough for leveling.
Earth/Water Shields are very good baseline so they are rather tough 'competition'.
If anything Lightning Shield should simply be brought down to 300 mana baseline (to match Earth Shields cost).
(It would be 240 Mana with Thunderhead 20% reduction)

Indeed, T-WoW dev's philosophy for the Enhancement Shaman shines thru via the "Thunderhead" talent -- Supporting/Enhancing teammates at the cost of ones own power. Based!

Pretty sure buffing a Talent (Stormstrike) is 'touching the Talent Tree' but ok.
I'd be shocked if they buffed Stormstrike again they already massively buffed it.
Realistically, *perhaps* they might change the debuff to be less trash (it gets 'eaten' by crappy gimmick Nature dmg effects).

As for that 'Windfury Slam' concept -- idk man you have some pretty corny concepts for this class imo.
They lavished Paladin with excessive buffs that should be 'scaled back' somewhat (Holy Strike especially needs a nerf).
They should not be ludicrously buffing other classes to match Paladins absurdity.

[Mac]

Yes to dual wielding.

[Gladeshadow]

This topic has been exhausted to death. No dual wield in vanilla(+) and the reasons were provided by others.

Dual wield is a TBC thing and the entire enhancement talent tree would have to be remade and rebalanced to cater to this TBC feature. We already have shamans with improved tanking capability, which is what was intended for vanilla and therefore certainly in the flavor of vanilla+. Dual wielding was never meant to be a vanilla shaman thing. There are TBC servers if players want them. Those of us here largely want vanilla. Were that to change, we'd no longer be here.

[Williamson75]

I will stand against dual wield until they fix 2h shamans. I don't want the tbc fix that most vanilla + shamans have. I hate dual wielding on shamans. they have read a ton of suggestions to fix enhance and if they take that route I will completely retire my shaman. It is not a fix I want to see. If you want dual wield, go to vanilla +, epoch, SoD, or the others. Twow is one of the few places with 2h enhance and I much rather they buff the spec following 2h. They have community feed back on multiple ways to do it. It's their choice on how they want to do it but I just hope they don't go for dual wielding.