PvP balance suggestions

[Bloodline1x9]

=1.= Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

There are simply no alternatives. I do not understand why such an obvious thing has not been introduced yet. Anyone who wants to argue with this just write how to kill a warlock who casts fear fear fear. And even if you are undead, he will throw a death coil at you and then do fear fear fear

=2.= Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 10 second cooldown on change form.

OR

Let them change forms as much as they want, but this does not free them from control.

=3.= Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

OR

"Second Breath" for all warri as at least some sustain against control. It will not affect warriors in pvE. This will not affect warriors who drink Free Action Potion. Do you generally think it is fair that a warrior needs to drink FAP on CD to do anything in pvp? Even with this without healers he lives for 3 seconds. Charge-> Graveyard. It's warrior pvp cycle. And his damage is far from the damage of fury warriors in raids under all buffs and cooldowns. Some classes can simply oneshot from a distance.

=4.= Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd.
Need to change to 40 energy cost

OR

Backstab awards 2 combo points.
The dps will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

=5.= You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough.
Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3. But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Or, on the contrary, give human mages a slow. And give the high elves invisibility. It will be symbolic, night elves have a meld, and high elves mages will have a short invis.

[Rat2156]

"Warriors are too weak in pvp." This is the kind of statement that you usually only see from warriors upset they're not the best at literally everything in the game

[Xudo]

Making charge useful in combat will not free you from standing in novas and roots.

You ask diminishing return for fear and don't like that druids have anti-fear ability. Looks like you want some means to counter fear for other class, but you don't name it.

[Jammyxx]

No Paladin mentioned, the class that's unkillable with T3 and one shots everything with berserking, while being immune for 15 sec.

I think it's quite clear which class this guy plays.

[Element19090]

1. Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

2. Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 20 second cooldown on change form.

3. Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

4. Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd. Need to change to 40 energy and 2 combo points. The damage will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

5. You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough. Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3.
But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Warriors are not underpowered at all. a geared warrior will one shot everything in sight. As a mage i know to well...lol

Warriors are only punching bag's when they're undergeared. The class is notoriously gear depenedent. They're crap as fresh 60s but absolute gods in t3.

They're kick butt in t2 as well.

i think druids are fine, yes they can break slows, novas, polys ect but they loose manay quick from shape shifting.

[Majestik51]

-1

bro this is vanilla wow, pls...

[Kairion]

This is honestly amusing to read.

1. Sheeps and other forms of non combat CC does have diminishring returns + a heartbeat resist mechanic. It just doesn't show it in the duration of the spell, because the game itself doesn't know yet how long the spell will still last on you.

2. Druids that are locked into shapeshift would not only make them incredibly weak, it would also kill their class identity. A druid can do all, but never multiple things at the same time. It is your job to punish the druid when he is in a vulnerable form like Cat or Humanoid and not waste your big CDs into a bear. The only form i could see a small CD be debatable is travelform as flagcarrier druids are extremely oppressive to play against. But 20 seconds is ridiculous. many pvp encounters end in a shorter timespan than that.

3. A warrior has two weaknesses in PvP. Getting disarmed and kited. The former is easily remedied by weapon chain or equiping the right gloves and the later is solved by friendly dispells or a simple swig of a free action potion. And boy let me tell you, not being able to kite/cc a warrior results in a guaranteed win for warrior in most matchups. Charge in combat is also a thing with intercept. Being able to use Charge & intercept both in combat would result in a gapcloser as often as every 7.5 seconds on average(!) with talent + pvp gear

4. Backstab has a massively inflated crit chance and is definitely worth its energy cost in PvP. considering you can just jump around your target like a toddler who really needs a bathroom the downside of requiring a back hit is not nearly as much of a downside as you think for a good rogue. Backstab also deals 150% weapondamage. This means a 1.8 speed dagger adds as much damage to backstab as as 2.7 sword would add to a sinister. With backstabs extra crit chance and higher base damage, thats a decent tradeoff. And if you really want two combopoints, seal fate exists...

5. Not only would slow be incredibly infuriating to play against (particularly the warrior which you mention gets kited too easy would absolutely hate this...) mage does already have a built in attackspeed slow for opposing melees with Ice armor and a plethora of movement speed slow spells.

And i love how this casually ommits Shadowpriests, Hunters & Paladins as potential problems for a PvP balancing

[Bloodline1x9]

Thanks for your answers. I will try to answer and discuss with everyone, but I will not repeat myself.

"Warriors are too weak in pvp." This is the kind of statement that you usually only see from warriors upset they're not the best at literally everything in the game

Yes, I know that feeling. But warriors usually want too much.
And I am writing about another feeling. It's when you see any char galloping and you think "If he attacks me now first I 100% die. I have only chance to win if I attack first. Attack or don't touch?" That is, if a warrior is attacked, he will lose 100%. And if he attacks first, then he only has a chance. The impossibility of making a charge in battle, it is not clear why the obstacle was made.

Making charge useful in combat will not free you from standing in novas and roots.

So you admit that even this will not help the warriors? Then I have no reason to explain how much it will help. And for this reason there is no reason for you to refuse this change.

You ask diminishing return for fear and don't like that druids have anti-fear ability. Looks like you want some means to counter fear for other class, but you don't name it.

You don't understand. The warlock's fear is imba because he has no CD. You can be chased endlessly in fear under dots until death. It's a broken mechanic, but that doesn't mean the druid is normal. He's an imba too.

No Paladin mentioned, the class that's unkillable with T3 and one shots everything with berserking, while being immune for 15 sec.

I think it's quite clear which class this guy plays.

I have mage, rogue, warrior and low lvl paladin, hunter, shaman (still leveling) I'm not one of those who always play the same class. When I get bored with caster, I take melee and vice versa. Also, I used to play a priest and a druid. And I know that druid is the most unbalanced IMBA in the game. Someone is afraid of rogues. Rogues are nothing compared to druids. The rogue can be controlled. Slow down / nova and no slow no any immobilize druids. A rogue can be sheeped. No poly for druid. A rogue can be feared. Now the druid has berserk.
Like uncountable PvP trinket. To make a 20-second cooldown on reshift, it will simply say that the pvp druid trinket has a 20-second coldown. Ok you could make 10 second. 10 it's minimum. Druids will still be an imba with 10 sec cd.

By the way, the warrior is also easy to control. Druid is a warrior + rogue on Free Action Potion and he also has a HEAL? Yeah, root, heal, casts... And they hit very hard now, even in the bear. Well, I don't understand why they were given anti-fear. Maybe one of the admins is playing druid? Well, if they want to make this class relevant in pvE, just go ahead and make it so that if the druid chooses to play as a cat, then let him remain, and if he is a bear or a healer, then so be it. Just not so that they have 3 times more opportunities than others and constant resetting of control every second. Fixation is required on the form the druid has chosen for the game.

Warriors are not underpowered at all. a geared warrior will one shot everything in sight. As a mage i know to well...lol

It's funny to read such a thing from a magе.
So warrior has 1 intercept for 1 your blink. How else can he hit you?

3. A warrior has two weaknesses in PvP. Getting disarmed and kited.

Tell me, please, have you ever seen a crit of chain lightening? Or how quickly the dots burn. How quickly they eat until you try to give a harmstring to just start beating. Of course, if several allies heal and dispel the warrior, then he will be able to do something. But he doesn't do it, the whole team does it.

Backstab also deals 150% weapondamage. This means a 1.8 speed dagger adds as much damage to backstab as as 2.7 sword would add to a sinister.

That is, you admit that the 1.8 dagger does as much damage as the sinister 2.7? Well, it costs 60, not 40. Should apply much more. And give not one combo, but one and a half if purely mathematical.
So if there was a 2.7 daguerre, then it could be said that 60 energy is exactly 150%. For now, backstab is a thrash ability that you need to look for in the back.

[Boras]

1. Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

2. Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 20 second cooldown on change form.

3. Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

4. Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd. Need to change to 40 energy and 2 combo points. The damage will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

5. You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough. Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3.
But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Learn to intervene. Learn to free action potion or make friends with a paladin. Undead literally counter and make immune to fear by a click of a button.

[Bloodline1x9]

Learn to intervene.

It's not a charge to the enemy

Learn to free action potion

so I need to drink FAP to compete with those who don't drink it?

Undead literally counter and make immune to fear by a click of a button.

and dwarf literally counter blind, poison slow with by a click of a button. But this is not a class, but a racial ability. Fortunately, druids cannot be undead. Although by giving them anti-fear admins were made undead in some kind of it

or make friends with a paladin

Your comments look like "If your class is trash in pvp, then play in party with those classes that are strong and let them protect you." This is absurd. Do you understand that with your such excuses you literally admit that some classes should be buffed in pvp, and some nerfed? And in general, your comment can be compared to "Well, what's wrong with the fact that you can't win 60 levels? Attack 50 levels, what's the problem?"

You must understand another truth:
Relevance in pvp and pve are different things.
Potion against potion
Trinket against trinket
Classial ability against classial, racial vs racial.

[Majestik51]

id like to say that im pvp player so many years. PVP playstyle has changed many times thru all these expansions (TBC, WOTLK...)

we cannot create new classes abilities and skills cause ppl want to change the way vanilla wow is been played.
As a friend said above u can use potions and other consumables to make ur playstyle better.

But if u so concerned about pvp u can play on million other pvp servers for free....

vanilla is what it is. cant understand your mindset bro for real...

[Bloodline1x9]

But if u so concerned about pvp u can play on million other pvp servers for free....

Is pvp prohibited on turtle?
What is your problem? How will balance in pvp affect you in pve?

we cannot create new classes abilities and skills cause ppl want to change the way vanilla wow is been played.

It's already done. New skills added, balance changed.
After the admins started for some reason to make imbalanced classes in pvp even stronger, it is no longer the original vanilla.
And even in the original vanilla there was no balance, so changes are needed.

vanilla is what it is. cant understand your mindset bro for real...

My thinking leads to all classes being competitive in pve and competitive in pvp.
Because it's fair.
What I suggested will greatly affect pvp, but not pve.
Diminishing doesn't work in pvE. With combat charge warriors will not start to damage more in raids. Druids don't need to constantly change form in pvE. Dagger rogue lose to rogue combat sword spec even if he hits in the back. Even in pvE. Not to mention pvp where you still have to get to that back.

[Kairion]

3. A warrior has two weaknesses in PvP. Getting disarmed and kited.

Tell me, please, have you ever seen a crit of chain lightening? Or how quickly the dots burn. How quickly they eat until you try to give a harmstring to just start beating. Of course, if several allies heal and dispel the warrior, then he will be able to do something. But he doesn't do it, the whole team does it.

Backstab also deals 150% weapondamage. This means a 1.8 speed dagger adds as much damage to backstab as as 2.7 sword would add to a sinister.

That is, you admit that the 1.8 dagger does as much damage as the sinister 2.7? Well, it costs 60, not 40. Should apply much more. And give not one combo, but one and a half if purely mathematical.
So if there was a 2.7 daguerre, then it could be said that 60 energy is exactly 150%. For now, backstab is a thrash ability that you need to look for in the back.

Its funny how warriors are always astonished when someone hits them as hard as they themselves hit on cloth or leather targets. A shaman has no way to get away once you land either charge hamstring or Intercept + hamstring on him. While shamans can dish out huge damage if uninterrupted, once you get into melee with them, they are reduced to Lightning shield and Shocking you. So realistically if its a pure 1v1 situation you won't get hit by chain lightning if you know what pummel & intimidating shout are. While you definitely will hit him with Mortal Strike.

Also, have you ever considered maybe warrior needs a rootbreak instead of double charge? Only two classes can reliably root you, but many more need to kite a warrior with slows to win. suggesting double charge does not help against warriors weak matchups, yet makes him almost impossible to deal with in the matchups where he is already decent.


And on the backstap topic, please think half a second before you post. you get 30% increased crit chance on Backstab as well as 142 extra basedamage on the spell. In terms of damage per energy, backstab clearly outperforms sinister. The lower combopoint generation is the drawback of backstab. And even that can be partially offset if you choose a seal fate spec. This is like complaining that Fireball doesn't slow but Frostbolt does.

[Ravenstone]

4. Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd. Need to change to 40 energy and 2 combo points. The damage will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

This out of all the changes is the most absurd to me. You say you have a Rogue but I can only assume you don't fully understand this. You don't see any problem whatsoever with making Backstab the same energy cost as an Improved Sinister Strike, with double the combo points, and higher potential to gain a third combo point with Seal Fate and Imp Backstab? No-one would ever use SS ever again...

Your proposed fixes are not thought through. I understand the sentiment on Druids and am inclined to agree that they shouldn't have been given a fear break, but giving them a cooldown on their forms? You are just killing the class.

Warriors are absurdly strong, and yes they have a weakness, it is one of the few things that works well against them. This isn't a problem. They shouldn't have their weakness removed.

[Bloodline1x9]

Also, have you ever considered maybe warrior needs a rootbreak instead of double charge? Only two classes can reliably root you, but many more need to kite a warrior with slows to win.

This is needed not only against nova or roots. When a warrior attacks from an intercept, after gaining control, he can no longer get close. By the way, where will he get the rage for the intercept? That is, he must press Blood Rage after receiving damage to himself, switch stance, intercept, harmsting. And all this is accompanied by a global CD.
At this time, dots/castes are eating him, and he has already taken 30%-50% of his HP. And here he seems to be able to start hitting, but he gains control. All classes have control. And then he can no longer shorten the distance.
The charge mechanic has its vulnerabilities. There is a deadly zone. 8 yards minimum, or you can go beyond its range.
Casters have a lot of control. A warrior is a toy for them. Even a shaman. He has a Hex, which he will use after intercepting a warrior, put a slow totem, run away, frost shock, kite and kill him in a few seconds. In order to give a pummel, you need to be nearby. And it won't work against instant casts. It only closes one school.

And on the backstap topic, please think half a second before you post. you get 30% increased crit chance on Backstab as well as 142 extra basedamage on the spell. In terms of damage per energy, backstab clearly outperforms sinister.

Do you think the +30% crit chance makes up for the fact that it costs 50% more? 3 sinister strikes = 2 backstab at cost. Already at this stage, backstab loses. +30% crit and the talents spent on it are just a price for the discomfort of being hit in the back. Backstab should be stronger, because it's more difficult to implement. And at the moment it's even weaker. Evidence that rogues take swords for PVE. Although they can stab bosses in the back with daggers. But the combat sword spec is stronger.

The lower combopoint generation is the drawback of backstab.

At the very least, do you agree with me that backstab should give more combo points?

This out of all the changes is the most absurd to me. You say you have a Rogue but I can only assume you don't fully understand this. You don't see any problem whatsoever with making Backstab the same energy cost as an Improved Sinister Strike, with double the combo points, and higher potential to gain a third combo point with Seal Fate and Imp Backstab?

Ok, lets talk about Seal Fate. In pve Combat spec and in pve Sublet dominate but you want to talk about talent deep in Assassination...

Firstly, due to the fact that sinister is cheaper, the rogue can get 3 additional points from three hits. And backstab, although it has a higher chance to crit, can only get +2 additional combo from two hits (120 energy to 120 energy)
Are you curious why after the appearance of Mutilate in TBC, rogues still played Combat - pve and Hemo - PvP? Mutilate could give 4 combos. Because the alternatives are stronger. And hitting in the back is more difficult.

I understand the sentiment on Druids and am inclined to agree that they shouldn't have been given a fear break, but giving them a cooldown on their forms? You are just killing the class.

Will not kill. This will balance it. If a druid wants to play as a cat, then he plays as a cat. If he wants to play like a bear, he plays like a bear. And the class will balance from this point. A cat competes with a rogue, a bear with a warrior.
And he will still be strong. When he opens from stealth, he has no form cooldown. He will bite and hit, then when he is placed in Nova he will change his form and take him off. And only then does he get his first cooldown. He will have to wait, if not 20, then at least 10 seconds before he uses his "uncoutable pvp-trinket". And how did he want? He wanted to hit like a rogue, survive better than a tank, so that he could not be controlled by anything, and he himself had a lot of control? And then healing?

[Ravenstone]

This out of all the changes is the most absurd to me. You say you have a Rogue but I can only assume you don't fully understand this. You don't see any problem whatsoever with making Backstab the same energy cost as an Improved Sinister Strike, with double the combo points, and higher potential to gain a third combo point with Seal Fate and Imp Backstab?

Ok, lets talk about Seal Fate. In pve Combat spec and in pve Sublet dominate but you want to talk about talent deep in Assassination...

No, SF was just a further possibility I was showing you to highlight the change. Ignore that for now because we clearly need to go super simple here.

Replace the current Combat PvE spec with a SS that gives 2 combo points and tell me which one is stronger. Then realise that this is what you are suggesting but with Backstab. You proposed a Backstab that is identical cost to SS but with better combo point generation, and therefore strictly superior to SS and you can't understand how this is a problem.

[Bloodline1x9]

You proposed a Backstab that is identical cost to SS but with better combo point generation, and therefore strictly superior to SS and you can't understand how this is a problem.

There is no problem here. Backstab should deal the same amount of damage for the same cost as sinister strike. But, give 2 combo points for hitting him in the back. It's very simple. If you hit anywhere with sinister it's 1 point, and if you try to hit the back with backstab then it's 2 combo. Skill work is rewarded. The rogue will receive more points if he hits in the back, or nothing if the enemy protects his back well. If you don't want the rogue to score points quickly, spin, strafe, control. It's much more interesting than dumb one-button spam. I don't think there will be many backstab rogues. They will compete with hemo.

[Ravenstone]

You proposed a Backstab that is identical cost to SS but with better combo point generation, and therefore strictly superior to SS and you can't understand how this is a problem.

There is no problem here. Backstab should deal the same amount of damage for the same cost as sinister strike. But, give 2 combo points for hitting him in the back. It's very simple. If you hit anywhere with sinister it's 1 point, and if you try to hit the back with backstab then it's 2 combo. Skill work is rewarded. The rogue will receive more points if he hits in the back, or nothing if the enemy protects his back well. If you don't want the rogue to score points quickly, spin, strafe, control. It's much more interesting than dumb one-button spam. I don't think there will be many backstab rogues. They will compete with hemo.

Either you truly don't understand or cannot accept that you are wrong. Either way I've made it as simple as possible and you still refuse to see a problem...

Where do Rogues spend the vast majority of their time in PvE?
Behind the opponent.
Ignoring energy, which skill does more damage with the same ilvl sword vs dagger?
Backstab.
Would you rather have 1 combo point per skill or 2?
2 is a higher number than 1.

Therefore no sane Rogue would use SS over your proposed Backstab in PvE.

[Fixaren1]

If you have ever played druid on this server you would know they are not imba even weak when it comes to scaling in pvp, start great and get so much worst, better gear you get equal to your target.
They have no slow, the movement increase not big enough, you get kited by everything. I play kinda alot pvp on this server, and played vanilla way too much in my life. And when you can't backstab a warlock/priest who dot and run, because you are 2 far away.( You have to be Infront, or were their back will be in 1-2 sec later). I have almost full bis, and I don't delete people like hunters/warriors/priest/shaman(i am alliance so maybe paladins i don't know) with same gear. You have to work. Sure druid are strong 1vs1 but in a 2vs2 they are low tier. Either you kill someone quick or you get stuck in bear and do low DMG. Imo druids need buff to feral like 10% more movement or 10%slow, as it is now. If you ever played feral druid on this server you know this to be true. Think people get more angry about druids because they don't know what gear they have, had have blue geared people say same things as this warrior. But if t3 hunter deletes you before you done 100 DMG back , it's fine because you say to urself he just outgeared me.

[Bloodline1x9]

Ignoring energy, which skill does more damage with the same ilvl sword vs dagger?
Backstab.

Would you rather have 1 combo point per skill or 2?
2 is a higher number than 1.

Therefore no sane Rogue would use SS over your proposed Backstab in PvE.

PvE dps works not so simple as you think. First, the main part of the damage is done by white attacks. Secondly, this is an ordinary ability. And in the last place finishers. If you know how combat sword spec works, namely that a fast offhand creates hits from a slow mainhand. This gives a high increase in dps. Plus a WF totem that buffs a lot especially slow MH than dagger. Whether the dagger will overtake the sword on the boss is still a debatable question. But the dagger is most likely to lose on the trash.

In any case, balancing a dagger in pvE is a very simple task. It is still too early to say. We are talking about two things. About reducing the price to 40 and about 2 combo points. The weakness of the current backstab is that it absolutly needs at least one of these two buffs.

[Bloodline1x9]

If you have ever played druid on this server you would know they are not imba even weak
They have no slow, the movement increase not big enough, you get kited by everything.

Druids have no slow cause they have passive +30% movement from Feline Swiftness. Again, rogues have no such improve. I think if the druids would be locked in form for a 20 second cooldown then they can be given the slow ability. Because as I wrote earlier, this nerf is the point from which the druid will balance. Separately, each form. If you want to play cat, then you must be no weaker than a rogue. But not like now, which cannot be stopped by anything at all.

At the same time, when you talk about the skills that druids do not have, I want to say that you have enough that the class-analogs do not have. Is it normal that a bear can Stun? An ordinary warrior cannot do this, only a prot warrior with talent. At the same time, the bear deals much more damage than the prot warrior. I see how on some packs in the dungeons, the blue gear bears did a little less damage than the fury warriors. But I'm not talking about taking away your bash or damage or anything. And only that which should not be. Infinite pvp trinket.

[Ravenstone]

We are talking about two things. About reducing the price to 40 and about 2 combo points.

This is not what you said, and I've clearly been hammering this home.

4. Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd. Need to change to 40 energy and 2 combo points.

Your suggestion was to do both.

You can't increase the combo points gained, thats one of the reasons SF builds work, the increased combo point throughout allowing more finishers, more Eviscerates. I don't think you are appreciating how much more reliable control a Rogue would have in PvP with a combo generator providing 2 combo points whilst dealing a lot of damage, or the extra throughput in PvE of finishers.

A decrease in energy cost I haven't thought enough about.

[Bloodline1x9]

Your suggestion was to do both.

I suggest both, right. Because I believe that one will not be enough to update the backstab.
Only the price reduction will make backstab relatively equal to hemo. This is still not enough to use the skill that requires the conditions of being behind. Therefore, the backstab should be stronger than the "anyway" ability.

We are talking about two things. About reducing the price to 40 and about 2 combo points.

This is not what you said, and I've clearly been hammering this home.

I meant that if you agree that two buffs is too much but 1 is fine, then it proves that at this current point, without a single buff, backstab is a weak skill. So at least 1 is needed.

[Fixaren1]

Druids have no slow cause they have passive +30% movement from Feline Swiftness.

Slow are way better on this cliant due to lag, i have 20 ms still have to stand were they are gonna stand in future 1-2sec to backstab, if you run in sicksack its close to impossible to backstab you.

I think if the druids would be locked in form for a 20 second cooldown then they can be given the slow ability. Because as I wrote earlier, this nerf is the point from which the druid will balance. Separately, each form. If you want to play cat, then you must be no weaker than a rogue. But not like now, which cannot be stopped by anything at all.

This would make feral druid the worst pvp charecter in the game by far. If a warrior with bwl + gear hit you in cat and crit you die in like 2-4 sec, Rogues get you outside bear form will 100-0 before you get out from the 2 stun combo (if you dont have trinket). And still warrior in endgame gear can and will sometime kill a bear who start in bear form(with dmg gear on). Before you talk about a class play it once.

[Bloodline1x9]

This would make feral druid the worst pvp charecter in the game by far.

When I wrote "If you want to play cat, then you must be no weaker than a rogue."
did it looked like death of a class to you? Are you too used to being an imba?
The rogue is also not immune to slow down. So why are you crying that you are being slowed down? You have stealth like a cat and you will be able to dispel nova one more time. And do it many more times, but with a small cooldown for this skill. You will take damage in the bear form. Do the warriors also not have a dispel?
Plus you have heals. Balance is when everyone is equal, not when you are stronger than others.

If you played Warcraft 3, you must have seen that there druids do not instantly transform into bears. Why should it be instantly in WoW? If the admins take warcraft3 as a starting point, then it's a good idea not only from a balance point of view, but also from a lore point of view. But I don't suggest doing a cast-time for the transformation, because it will affect druids who are not used to it too much.

[Ravenstone]

PvE dps works not so simple as you think. First, the main part of the damage is done by white attacks. Secondly, this is an ordinary ability. And in the last place finishers. If you know how combat sword spec works, namely that a fast offhand creates hits from a slow mainhand. This gives a high increase in dps. Plus a WF totem that buffs a lot especially slow MH than dagger. Whether the dagger will overtake the sword on the boss is still a debatable question. But the dagger is most likely to lose on the trash.

It's really not that difficult. If you exclude WF, you can easily compare the two DPS specs and find that it is very equal in terms of white damage. Because the daggers and the swords have very similar DPS values. The increase from Sword Specialisation is fairly negligable. Combat Swords is only minorly ahead of Combat Daggers, partly due to the availability of good daggers. WF helps Swords more, but not a great deal more.

Backstab does a lot more damage than SS, like 50 more DPS when BIS. You propose to both decrease the energy cost, further pushing Backstab ahead of SS in terms of damage, and increase the combo points, which will undoubtedtly increase the number of extra Eviscerates you can fit in before SnD falls off. This is nowhere near being covered by the benefits of WF.

White damage between daggers vs swords is negligable difference.
Backstab outclasses SS in terms of damage. Reducing the energy cost further pushes Backstab out in front.
Double combo points would provide more Finishers for the person using Backstab.

There is no scenario where SS Swords would be better than Backstab Daggers if both of your suggestions were made.

[Bloodline1x9]

and increase the combo points, which will undoubtedtly increase the number of extra Eviscerates

There is no scenario where SS Swords would be better than Backstab Daggers if both of your suggestions were made.

It is too early to talk about this before the innovation. Eviscarate deals about 7% damage (I'm not sure in accuracy)

The increase from Sword Specialisation is fairly negligable

Due to the mechanics of work, which I wrote about earlier, combat spec gives a lot of dps. Ask yourself why rogues prefer swords instead of fist weapons?

White damage between daggers vs swords is negligable difference.

WF helps Swords more, but not a great deal more.

Compensation is collected a little, a few % here and few % there.

In any case, as I said, if it turns out that backstab will be much better than swords, then it can always be little nerfed. Through bonus damage. Until the balance appears. Now it does not exist. Backstab must be buffed.

[Heine]

Not a single real problem mentioned about paladins.
Op is biased "pls buf ma class" boi, due to constant complain over druids (LOL) he is playing mage.

[Ravenstone]

and increase the combo points, which will undoubtedtly increase the number of extra Eviscerates

There is no scenario where SS Swords would be better than Backstab Daggers if both of your suggestions were made.

It is too early to talk about this before the innovation. Eviscarate deals about 7% damage (I'm not sure in accuracy)

The increase from Sword Specialisation is fairly negligable

Due to the mechanics of work, which I wrote about earlier, combat spec gives a lot of dps. Ask yourself why rogues prefer swords instead of fist weapons?

White damage between daggers vs swords is negligable difference.

WF helps Swords more, but not a great deal more.

Compensation is collected a little, a few % here and few % there.

In any case, as I said, if it turns out that backstab will be much better than swords, then it can always be little nerfed. Through bonus damage. Until the balance appears. Now it does not exist. Backstab must be buffed.

You are just clutching at straws here. Combat Daggers vs Combat Swords is a very valid comparison that can be done today. You can look at the parses between the two and see that there is very little difference between them. The balance already there.

Fist weapons cannot be used to backstab, so must use SS. Furthermore, Fists had no +weapon skill increase item before Turtle introduced them, whilst Sword does, so Sword is the natural choice. Lastly, there are very few good Fist weapons.

[Bloodline1x9]

Not a single real problem mentioned about paladins.
Op is biased "pls buf ma class" boi, due to constant complain over druids (LOL) he is playing mage.

I play mage, rog, warri, hunt, shaman and pally. A little bit a lot for just "ma class". What do you think?
But actually, I've never played vanilla before as a paladin and I still leveling him so that's why I didn't write anything about him. I don't talk about things I don't understand. Yes, he is strong. But he can be turned into a sheep, frightened, sapped, disarmed, freedom is over, he has no root, no charge, he has no stealth.

Furthermore, Fists had no +weapon skill increase item before Turtle introduced them, whilst Sword does, so Sword is the natural choice. Lastly, there are very few good Fist weapons.

Classic wowhead screenshot


There is a fist spec. And fist in weapon expertise. It was also in TBC, and rogues always chose swords.
And when Mutilate appeared, which could give 3-4 combos with SF rogues still prefer Combat Sword Spec in pvE. Prefer Sinister that gave 1 combo. Many guides have been written about it, tests have been conducted. Sword spec bypassed daggers and fists, bypassed mutilate. Because its procs are more than the banal +5% crit

[Gantulga]

I wish only people with a basic understanding of classes, mechanics and their PvP interactions made suggestions of this kind.

[Fixaren1]

Not a single real problem mentioned about paladins.
Op is biased "pls buf ma class" boi, due to constant complain over druids (LOL) he is playing mage.

I play mage, rog, warri, hunt, shaman and pally. A little bit a lot for just "ma class".

I dont get it, you play 3 classes that has easy time vs Druid. 1 that has a 50/50 winrate, 1 that can if he get you outside bear from always win and 1 classes who has a big problem vs druid.

Either you have not master the classes you play, you dont know how to play vs druid or you dont have gear.

But gohead nerf them to the ground.

[Gantulga]

To be fair druid has received a hefty amount of buffs which made them considerably better in PvP when they were already pretty solid in 1.12.

[Bloodline1x9]

Not a single real problem mentioned about paladins.
Op is biased "pls buf ma class" boi, due to constant complain over druids (LOL) he is playing mage.

I play mage, rog, warri, hunt, shaman and pally. A little bit a lot for just "ma class".

I dont get it, you play 3 classes that has easy time vs Druid. 1 that has a 50/50 winrate, 1 that can if he get you outside bear from always win and 1 classes who has a big problem vs druid.

Lol, what? Lets a little discuss about pvp strategies of different classes against the druid

Mage - lose a lot of hp after druids opening from steath, Nova -> transform free, CoC -> transform free, Cannot poly, Ice Block and after that the mage dies. He doesn't have time to cast anything only instants. No way to stop this shifting sh1t.
Warrior - druid fight in bear and if he loses a lot of health, just use Stun + Root, run away and heals. No way to stop it.
Rogue - druid meat him in bear give Fairy fire so that re-stealth was not possible. And just laugh as rogue tries to impale that fat skin.
Warlock - druid got a anti-fear
Priest - same, anti-fear
Hunter - easy free from slow/immobilize, oh OMG freeze trap can cautch druid! Have we found the only long CC capable of controlling the druid? Can not be! Hunter uses "Fear beast".. Oops.. Berserk

But gohead nerf them to the ground.

lol again. Where you see nerfes? Lets count:
No slow
No immobilize
No poly
No sap
No fear
No disarm
No mana burn in form


+30% movement
+Stealth
+Charge
+Stun
+Root
+poison clean
+cast strikes
+FAT
+HEAL

What else? Go cry that you don't have a mortal strike or poisons.

[Ravenstone]

Furthermore, Fists had no +weapon skill increase item before Turtle introduced them, whilst Sword does, so Sword is the natural choice. Lastly, there are very few good Fist weapons.

Classic wowhead screenshot


There is a fist spec. And fist in weapon expertise. It was also in TBC, and rogues always chose swords.
And when Mutilate appeared, which could give 3-4 combos with SF rogues still prefer Combat Sword Spec in pvE. Prefer Sinister that gave 1 combo. Many guides have been written about it, tests have been conducted. Sword spec bypassed daggers and fists, bypassed mutilate. Because its procs are more than the banal +5% crit

I specifically wrote Fist +weapon skill item. I've already explained why Swords are better than Fists, and Fists are uncomparable to Daggers. If you are going to try and pick minor holes in my argument and ignore the main points then stop wasting both our times please.