nerf tea with shugar

[Geojak]

Vanilla content is balanced around mana costs. Too low raids dps and healers will oom, Decurse will stop and raids will wipe.

On classic people had to deal with it and still cleared.

On twow we got tea with sugar additionaly to mana pots for almost impossible to oom when used on cd.

Tea gives 1000-1700 mana and heath, shares cd with demonic runes which cost heath and give less mana if I remember correctly.

We got class buffs, more debuffs, raid scaling, crossfaction.
I don't think we need op tea I the meta.

Nerf it to the same values night dragon from felwood which gives around 500 heath and mana and make demonic runes relevant again

Now let the "hardcore" raider shit storm begin

[Balake]

In classic bosses melted in 20 seconds cause they were so easy. Nobody had mana problems anyway.

Tea being a helpful tool and strong in comparison to demonic runes doesn't automatically reach the conclusion "nerf tea". It reaches the conclusion "buff demonic runes".

Nobody got class buffs except ret paladins and druids (still not good dps specs). Holy paladins got nerfed downright.
More debuffs is negligible
Crossfaction is helpful (for melees only) but is very very far from offsetting the difficulty difference between turtle wow and classic.

And one more thing, turtle wow is a casual roleplay server, and YOU are not a hardcore raider yourself, you never stepped into Naxx besides maybe a trash farm, so for you to say "Now let the hardcore raider shit storm begin" doesn't translate to "I cleared all the content and I didn't find it challenging, remove tea and make it more challenging for me".
it translates to "i loathe others and want to inconvenience them as much as possible"

[Ugoboom]

Remember that we are at a lower powerlevel than on classic, as we don't have world buffs in raids, which were used by 2006 vanilla and 2019 classic players to clear content.

The only brought-in-meta class that came away from class changes more powerful is hunter, and they still aren't top dogs. The total raid DPS potential has not risen, other than totems/blessings stacking, which has done a bit but yeah pales in comparison to wbuff dps.

Anyway yeah what balake said is right. Tea isn't really used except on the absolute longest of fights like nef, KT. And even then an HP hit via runes vs an HP gain via tea really doesn't mean too much as it would cost minimal mana from heals to replenish that HP.

But yeah removing tea would barely punish warlocks who can tap for mana, it would barely punish mages who would just use their mana gems instead, and it woudln't punish hunters at all who effectively have infinite mana thanks to t3.

Removing tea would punish rets, protpals, moonkins, smites, eles and ehnance... all the memes who have terrbile mana efficiency, low int on their gear, and no or poor mana sustain mechanics.

On the very few long fights of the game, healers would simply stop overheal sniping as much as they can do now, and just play normally. Your proposed change doesn't change anything in regards to healer performance.

Geojak once again you seem to critically misunderstand how the raiding game works. I would suggest raiding and joining the many teams that have completed naxx to identify the actual problems with the game. Tea is not one of them.

[Geojak]

You are Very wrong if you think tea is only used on kt or nef. It's used all the time even by guilds progressing in mc or bwl. Because why not. You can pump Max rank heals non stop without stop, topping the meters easily against anyone not knowing how op and meta changing tea actually is.

Tea changes everything. Instead of having to be careful with mana, I and other healers make sure to top everyone with max ranks of. Noone dying, easy progression.

Regarding your argument about world buffs. Wipes happen. And then the buffs are gone. But teas are eternal. People still carried on without buffs on classic and so do we on turtle with all our benefits, just in easy mode.

I raid alot, just not naxx. I think it woild help you seeing the side from a guild still progressing from time to time, but it's hard to get back down to earth once you are up in the clouds

[Balake]

You're saying you want tea removed because it trivialized your molten core progression.

Well this might be shocking news, molten core is already braindead. Tea is only 200-300 more mana than demonic rune. Accounting for the health cost it becomes equivalent of 500-600 more mana.

If the truth is you want molten core to be hard for you, suggest buffing that raid.
If the truth is you dislike farming tea, suggest different methods of getting it.
If the truth is "tea changes the meta", what really is the meta in your head? Using different rank heals depending on kill length and effective mana pool IS the meta and the depth of vanilla healing. It's all about finishing the fight with as close to 0% mana as possible. Tea, shadow priest vampiric embrace, shaman totem stacking with pala blessing, mages arcane brilliance aura. All of these won't affect how you play the game (the definition of meta), only what rank of ability you use. Same thing mana potions do.

I'm not logically seeing why a guild progressing on molten core would agree with you. If it really is a clutch like you say that allows people to do this raid, do you really think they will support you and want it gone? If you want to challenge yourself, you would try to join at least AQ40, not fuck around in molten core and blackwing lair.

Right now, either you're trying to mess with casual raiders who want to have an enjoyable time in molten core THE INTRODUCTION RAID supposed to be easy.
OR you're trying to mess with the hardcore raiders because you convinced yourself you must hate hardcore raiders by principle.

Both are really not good hills to die on, and there's nothing more to say about it except yikes

[Xudo]

Tea https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=15723 Restores 1050 to 1751 health and mana.
Demonic Rune https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=12662 Restores 900 to 1501 mana at the cost of 600 to 1001 life.
Major Mana Potion https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=13444 Restores 1350 to 2251 mana.
Greater Dreamless Sleep Potion https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=20002 Puts the imbiber in a dreamless sleep for 12 sec. During that time the imbiber heals 2100 health and 2100 mana.
Night Dragon\'s Breath https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=11952 Restores 394 to 457 mana and 394 to 457 health.

When I did a lot of raiding, our healers drank GDS in some sort of queue. I think it was cool mechanic, which gives you a lot of resources, but requires additional cooperation and timing.

They also farmed demonic Runes for additional mana for fights. Yes, you can outheal health loss easily, but you have to use it carefully and you need to press additional healing buttons on users of runes. Which is more cooperation too.

Tea is not interesting consumable. You press button, you get additional resources.
It is also imbalanced compared to rune. You get more resources with less cost.

With removal of tea, people will switch to runes. They'll get ~500 mana less each 2 minute.

I don't think that tea should be removed, it can be more interesting. It can work like greater GDS for example. You need to fullfill tea ceremony to get all this mana and health.

[Kairion]

Well tea does offer a crutch for some mana dependent classes in the same way MCP is for Druids or fish was for tank paladins.

I'd vastly prefer these crutches not be needed. But in the current game ecosphere tea with sugar is vital to supplement most manaclasses.

The strain on healers if you do patchwerk with 14 warriors or 2 warriors 6 dps shamans 4 hunters and two protection paladins is vastly different.

Having no mana crutch would make warrior stacking outright necessary. And under these circumstances id rather take my tea with sugar.

But i think its fair to argue that runes undeservedly got their spot stolen. As tea is an improvemenent in both mana and health gained. It serves as a second healthpotion too at the same time.

So i would be okey with massively slashing the healthgain from tea and buffing runes mana return to slightly outdo tea.

This at least keeps healthstones, runes and tea all relevant.

[Geojak]

The problem doesn't ly with meme classes like shamans or ret paladins or boomkons ooming without tea. They could be using demonic runes and mana problem on these class have already been lowered on turtle wow.

It is the wrong focus imo. Our ret Palas in guild do great dmg for example, and they don't need any tea, they use storm gauntlets instead. Granted I don't know much about shadow priests or boomkons, but I would assume there mana problems were greatly lowered with class changes compared to pure vanilla.

The problem is long gear check raid bosses are trivialised by healers never ooming.

I like xudos point about greater dreamless sleep potions needing extra coordination. This will never be needed on turtle wow with tea.

Make tea heal and mana Similiar to night dragon so around 500 health and mana. Or let tea share Cd with regular mana potions

[Kairion]

I'm not sure if i would want Gear Check bosses to remain hard obstacles guilds flat out can't overcome. It feels frustrating standing in front of Patchwerk and lacking the Gear to go past him with the only solution being "suck it up and go farm more gear". It doesn't lend itself to a modern raid environment. So bypassing it via consumes such as Tea is not the worst thing in the game imho.

Well as a Prot paladin Tea with sugar is fairly necessary and a self CC on use would kill the item. While at the same time using a Rune as tank is fairly dangerous. So i think having a consumable option that returns mana without downside is important for them. Same goes for Sharing CD with Potion, as Stoneshield is fairly mandatory in hard content.

But ye for the other classes i like the idea of self CC for a bigger benefit. But i don't think Tea is the right item to push in such a role. Remove its Health gain, slightly nerf its mana gain and slightly buff runes. Then runes are the supperior choice for mana, while Tea serving as the "less opportunity costs and easy to farm alternative"

[Xudo]

Well as a Prot paladin Tea with sugar is fairly necessary and a self CC on use would kill the item. While at the same time using a Rune as tank is fairly dangerous. So i think having a consumable option that returns mana without downside is important for them. Same goes for Sharing CD with Potion, as Stoneshield is fairly mandatory in hard content.

You are not alone in raid.
There are Major Recombobulator https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=18637 Dispels Polymorph effects on a friendly target. Also restores 375 to 626 health and mana.
It is nice thing for cooperation. Guys that have enough mana and free CD can help you with your mana.
I think that more consumables like this could be made. May be even without engineering requirement.

[Kairion]

Sure, i'm not alone in the Raid, but the reason people don't like meme specs in their raids is because it puts more burden on them. If i also need people to spoonfeed me mana, i expect many more of them to dislike my presence.
Paying with a Healthstone cooldown should be opportunity cost enough for a tank (and even melee dps in many encounters) to regain some mana. (Thats why i'm advocating for its health gain to be reduced heavily/removed)

Forcing frankly janky trinkets onto your raidmemebers to enable you is controversal imho.

[Geojak]

Prot pala relies on tea probably the most so i see where you are coming from.
I dint think runes needs to be buffed, because twow introduced op tea. Power creep and all making night dragon totally look like shit when they were an intersting alternative originally as middle grounds between heatlhstone and rune (these all share cd)
Tea is not a middle ground, it's better than both

[Reploidrocsa]

if you want to remove tea, sure, i don't use it too often since i can manage my mana properly while healing, but expect ele shams, paladins and boomkins to be very pissed

[Kairion]

Prot pala relies on tea probably the most so i see where you are coming from.
I dint think runes needs to be buffed, because twow introduced op tea. Power creep and all making night dragon totally look like shit when they were an intersting alternative originally as middle grounds between heatlhstone and rune (these all share cd)
Tea is not a middle ground, it's better than both

Indeed, we got
Whipper Root Tuber for health (~800 health)
Night Dragon's Breath (~420 Health & ~420 Mana)
Major Healthstone (1320 health)
Dark / Demonic Runes (- ~800 Health & ~1200 Mana)

And then there is Tea with sugar for ~1400 Each.

Since we already got some Health option and even a mixed option for Both health and Mana without downside, but no mana only option without downside, making Tea restore about 800 mana and no health would give it an unique standing point without completely outcompeting the other options. Mana Ruby and Dark Runes would remain superior for mana but tea would still be able to close the gap for which its most commonly used (just to a lesser degree)

[Xudo]

I believe that pure mana option will be used over all other mixed alternatives anyway.
In raids, mana is more important resource than health.

Before tea, people were used only demonic runes even with its health cost.

If goal is "nerf tea", then it is ok. If goal is "make people use different consumables", then it needs further elaboration.

[Piffo]

Just remove it/ link it with potions/ make it expensive af...
Mana management is a core mechanic and tea with shugar kills it.

As others said, the struggle is part of the fun and it adds a interesting aspects to raiding:
Using lower lvl Potions/ FD and eat drink/ wearing special gear with a lot mp5...

Most specific mechanics that should generate mana problems seem too weak.
Chromaggus for example has a mana draining debuff. Ragnaros Submerge (that never happens) the Elementals do a mana Burn...
And other fights that are healing intense/ having a lot of aoe bombing adds/ are simply very long should cut into your potion reserves. Its a good thing after all. It encourages farming, removes gold via AH, adds pressure to increase dps,...

[Geojak]

Prot pala relies on tea probably the most so i see where you are coming from.
I dint think runes needs to be buffed, because twow introduced op tea. Power creep and all making night dragon totally look like shit when they were an intersting alternative originally as middle grounds between heatlhstone and rune (these all share cd)
Tea is not a middle ground, it's better than both

Indeed, we got
Whipper Root Tuber for health (~800 health)
Night Dragon's Breath (~420 Health & ~420 Mana)
Major Healthstone (1320 health)
Dark / Demonic Runes (- ~800 Health & ~1200 Mana)

And then there is Tea with sugar for ~1400 Each.

Since we already got some Health option and even a mixed option for Both health and Mana without downside, but no mana only option without downside, making Tea restore about 800 mana and no health would give it an unique standing point without completely outcompeting the other options. Mana Ruby and Dark Runes would remain superior for mana but tea would still be able to close the gap for which its most commonly used (just to a lesser degree)

How about these numbers
Old: 1050 - 1750 mana and health
The higher number is 1.66 the lower value. Let's keep the range unchanged and only adjust the min value

New: 213-353 health (353=213*1.66)
+ 427-708 mana (708=427*1.66)
Average total mana and health gain is 851. The mana gain is exactly, double the health values.

Compared to nigh dragon which is 394-456 health and mana with a average total of 850.
Tea is a not more or less powerfull than nigh dragon but it is weighted towards mana (double the mana than health whole nighrsagon is same) and has a higher range on the resources gained (to keep part of its original design)

[Grubi450]

The amount of people in full tier sets farming owlkins tells you everything about how strong or weak the tea is.

As a consumable I think it makes healer's life too easy, but it makes DPS with mana bars more viable, you could simply make it apply an undispellable debuff that reduces healing done and/or reduce the values.

Or simply nerf the amount you get from finishing a quest, 12 uses for 10 minutes of grinding is kinda insane compared to anything you would do for raid preparation, though it seems the guy who implemented it REALLY hated farming runes

[Geojak]

Never use mana potions when tea is off cd. It's stronger, and cheaper/easier to get atm.

But even if quest gave only 1 tea, you would also need to make it unique in order to prevent it have severe effects on meta forming around it.

IF you just make it more tedious to get tea, all you did is waste people's time without fixing any of the problems

But making tea unique could work too instead of nerfing tea. Then you have 3 charges per raid and you can't just spamm it. So you need to judge when to use it and when to rely on the other options like runes, healtstones, nightdragsons

[Balake]

The ridiculousness of a casual raider complaining about challenge and powercreep. It's as stupid as somebody who queues for bgs once a week complaining the grind to rank 14 is too easy.

Giving players power is fun, this is not a hardcore mindset server. Nobody is asking for making raids more hard, it wants more accessibility, more tools for the weak classes to perform (tea is for weak classes, warriors and rogues don't use it). You are a minority here, and being not even a hardcore mindset player, you're just trying to get things nerfed for the heck of it. You have nothing to gain personally, but apparently making things harder for other people is fun to you.

Making tea unique will severely punish the progression raiders who have to try a boss many times to down it, while the people who have it on farm use one tea per boss and it's enough for them.

The reliance on consumes for mana regeneration is a problem in vanilla design, but the solution is NOT to nerf the consumes, but rather to buff mana generation from items and add some sort of haste consume so people will want to go that route instead.

Major mana potion is 75 mp5 on a 1 min 59 second fight (worst case scenario).You know how much it is on a 2 min fight? 150 mp5.

[Balake]

The forums are 99% people with very strong opinions on what naxx raiders should do, even though never stepped foot into naxx in turtle wow.

And all the bad faith arguments too, ranting about challenge and balance when its clear they don't give a shit about those.

[Xudo]

IF you just make it more tedious to get tea, all you did is waste people's time without fixing any of the problems

Making stuff tedious to farm won't help.
People have farmed MCPs for raids.

[Oolaatris]

As someone who healed all content in Classic and is working through content here, I used runes in classic (although I did have the 1 tea from the Battle for Darrowshire quest). The absolute worst part of farming raid consumes for me in classic was rune farming, I could farm for an hour without a single rune. Particularly with the population boom we've seen recently, just getting tags to get runes will become a huge problem if tea is done away with. I use tea here because it's a HUGE quality of life improvement as I don't have to spent endless hours waiting on RNG to grant me the drops I need. There are still things that are bugged on the server, making life more tedious for mana users feels like a terrible waste of dev time and really just feels like a rant from someone who doesn't want anyone else to have fun.

[Astrallizard]

The tea needs some adjustments since it is too easy to farm and can be consumed non stop on cooldown without downsides. My suggestion would be to simply increase its cooldown. This way timing the tea becomes more important while the other runes become more relevant again.

Other than that, I think that the tea should be completely disabled in battlegrounds. A much weaker variant of the tea could be added to the PvP vendors.

[Tawneyturtle]

Msg/Yia, once again you try to fullfill your role as the server's #1 clown by asking for stuff to be changed that doesn't need changing.

The server has entered a permanent farm state for raiding with 7 different guilds having Naxx on farm(there are more Naxx farm guilds than prog raiding guilds on the server 7 to 5), countless characters in T3. Obviously the devs want to cater to the old players by making farm raiding more enjoyable and not make every week a constant struggle, hence why every single change to raiding has been a QoL one. The devs don't want us to quit after we're done with Naxx.

If you believe the game should be hard and weed people out, you failed as a game dev/director and as a player, you need to understand there is no new content aimed at people in T3, the endgame is get bis and push your parses (most of the players on the server don't) or gear up alts. If a game designer decides "Hey let's make peoples weekly raiding suddenly more annoying!" that will result in unhappy players and ex players. If players desire difficulty, they create it for themselves(see the guild Hard Chores). The mere motion that you'd request one of the single best features of this server to be removed or nerfed not only reinforces the idea that you ARE the laughing stock of not just 1-2 guilds but the whole raiding part of the server, but your inability to self reflect crowns you as most likely next to Faralynn in the most despised and looked down upon person to ever damage the server by your mere pressence, and your consecutive attempts at culling the server's average IQ each time you decide to report any """bugs""" or ask for unnecesarry fixes. There is no endgame for you. You may change your name over and over but people will recognize it's you. If you're a masochists who gets off from being publicly hated, I congratulate you for your success.

[Geojak]

Msg/Yia, once again you try to fullfill your role as the server's #1 clown by asking for stuff to be changed that doesn't need changing.

The server has entered a permanent farm state for raiding with 7 different guilds having Naxx on farm(there are more Naxx farm guilds than prog raiding guilds on the server 7 to 5), countless characters in T3. Obviously the devs want to cater to the old players by making farm raiding more enjoyable and not make every week a constant struggle, hence why every single change to raiding has been a QoL one. The devs don't want us to quit after we're done with Naxx.

If you believe the game should be hard and weed people out, you failed as a game dev/director and as a player, you need to understand there is no new content aimed at people in T3, the endgame is get bis and push your parses (most of the players on the server don't) or gear up alts. If a game designer decides "Hey let's make peoples weekly raiding suddenly more annoying!" that will result in unhappy players and ex players. If players desire difficulty, they create it for themselves(see the guild Hard Chores). The mere motion that you'd request one of the single best features of this server to be removed or nerfed not only reinforces the idea that you ARE the laughing stock of not just 1-2 guilds but the whole raiding part of the server, but your inability to self reflect crowns you as most likely next to Faralynn in the most despised and looked down upon person to ever damage the server by your mere pressence, and your consecutive attempts at culling the server's average IQ each time you decide to report any """bugs""" or ask for unnecesarry fixes. There is no endgame for you. You may change your name over and over but people will recognize it's you. If you're a masochists who gets off from being publicly hated, I congratulate you for your success.

This is what I meant when I said, "let the hardcore raider shirstoem begin"
I was expecting your comment.

It impossible to have a meaningful discussion with you. You only know personal attacks. Be gone from here

[Bayanni]

Three things here:

1. Tea with Sugar is a vanilla item as a one-time quest reward. TWoW added it to vendors in their early iterations of Winterveil and it was so good it caused problems with people leaving warlock alts in the zone to keep bringing raiders back well after the event to load up, leaving people without alts in a crap situation. You can't just outright remove the tea since it's vanilla, and you can't just remove the vendor as it only rewards people who stocked up heavily and punishes those that didn't, so they compromised by making a quest to get it. Removing or changing it's unique effect would take just a little more effort than I think some people are giving it credit for.

2. Simply put, this consumable isn't an issue. It diversifies where people are in the overworld by not having every single caster sitting on satyr spawns in felwood like what usually happens, but instead allows people to use them for felcloth farming while raiders go to winterspring to kill mobs no one ever touches otherwise. It's existence and current implementation actively encourages utilizing otherwise dead parts of the world in lieu of squatting areas that are already useful for other reasons, a complete net positive.

3. Moonkin lives and dies by it's mana consumption. I've said it a lot but to iterate again, boomkins were finally able to actually raid thanks to the TWoW mana changes to the class, but this is after including a lot of other items and consumables to bring them up. We still use mageblood and need it up 100% of the time; we still chug stacks of mana pots; and we still can and do go oom even with all of this and TwS. I raided with the Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon up through Naxx since it was the only way I could actually possibly last through most raid bosses and I would still go oom on Nef, KT, and C'Thun. If I innervate myself, I can make it through if I plan carefully. If tea is removed, even with possible replacements like runes, I will be noticeably less viable. This is also true for any off-meta shaman build, and we all should know how much they need help.


This doesn't need a change. It's not an issue.

[Bayanni]

The tea needs some adjustments since it is too easy to farm and can be consumed non stop on cooldown without downsides. My suggestion would be to simply increase its cooldown.

I don't think you know what this item is off-hand. It has a 2 minute CD and shares it with healthstones, runes, and the like. By no means can it be consumed non-stop and generally isn't used more than 1-2 times per raid boss, depending on class/spec.

[Xudo]

Thing is that with additional consumables (which you should farm along all other consumables) you hide problems of meme specs.
Devs look in their statistics and see that there are enough moonkins are raiding. No need to buff them up.
But meme specs spend much more time preparing for raid than meta specs.
Things looks normal, but you are in weaker position and spend more time farming than raiding.

I think this is real outcome of powercreep, which Geojack means.

The more consumables devs introduce, the longer players will prepare for raid. Because it is natural to gather every possible powerup for serious fight. Thats why I'm against craftable scrolls and against increasing buff slots.
Importance of consumables should be decreased, natural power of classes and gear should be carefully improved.

I also don't like the fact that healers left on their own to kill satyrs in felwood with 5% chance to drop rune. Demons in Winterspring has 25% chance to drop rune. Why don't you group up to kill them instead? Why preparation for raid are done solo?

[Astrallizard]

The tea needs some adjustments since it is too easy to farm and can be consumed non stop on cooldown without downsides. My suggestion would be to simply increase its cooldown.

I don't think you know what this item is off-hand. It has a 2 minute CD and shares it with healthstones, runes, and the like. By no means can it be consumed non-stop and generally isn't used more than 1-2 times per raid boss, depending on class/spec.

You can fill all your bags with the tea and consume it non stop on cooldown without downsides. Since it is very powerful and very easy to obtain at the same time, giving it a longer (still shared) cooldown seems like a fair trade-off. As I mentioned before this change would make the other runes more relevant again (especially in longer boss fights).

Sadly, my point about PvP was completely ignored due to the Naxxramas tunnel vision of some commenters. Ultimately, some kind of change based on the game mode is needed.

Suggestions:
1) disabled in PvP (battlegrounds)
2) weaker regular variant obtainable via the quest
3) weaker variant can be upgraded to original version (renamed to Tea with more Sugar) and is usable in Naxxramas

[Zirek]

Just nerf it . It's harming the og classic mana balance .

[Balake]

You can fill all your bags with the tea and consume it non stop on cooldown without downsides. Since it is very powerful and very easy to obtain at the same time, giving it a longer (still shared) cooldown seems like a fair trade-off. As I mentioned before this change would make the other runes more relevant again (especially in longer boss fights).

Sadly, my point about PvP was completely ignored due to the Naxxramas tunnel vision of some commenters. Ultimately, some kind of change based on the game mode is needed.

Suggestions:
1) disabled in PvP (battlegrounds)
2) weaker regular variant obtainable via the quest
3) weaker variant can be upgraded to original version (renamed to Tea with more Sugar) and is usable in Naxxramas

The downside is time spent. "Just fill your bags with tea/rage potions/mana potions/demonic runes and consume it non stop without downsides" well that aint possible cause that item costs gold or time to obtain, and it has a cd restricting its use.

I agree with disabling in PVP.

It's a good point that weak classes shouldn't be very reliant on consumes to still perform below the strong classes. But this server is notorious for making first half of a change then stalling months to do the second half. If you want an example of why you should never trust them to make such smart plans, just look at how they nerfed fishbringer cause "they will buff righteous fury in patch 1.16.6", yet we don't even have an estimated time of arrival on that patch! So now prot paladins (undeniably one of the most underdog specs of vanilla) got NERFED while they're waiting for compensatory buffs that are still very far away.

we CAN'T tell them to nerf tea and buff moonkins, because they'll nerf tea and simply leave moonkins as they are for months. We've seen it happen before thousands of times.

Reducing the number of consumes in general is good, but tea itself is not a consumable that needs removing. It's fine to give people many active consumable options and let them decide. The bloat of passive consumables that you have to drink up after wipe should definitely be sliced up though, and that's by slowly moving it to class buffs. Tea can have its uses cut down by buffing healthstone up to its level.

[Balake]

Just nerf it . It's harming the og classic mana balance .

just wait till you find out about vampiric embrace, brilliance aura, wisdom stacking with totems

dude you are clueless talking about og mana balance on a custom server with the goal of fixing balance. Mana management of vanilla is a failure, the best classes are the ones that don't need to think about managing mana at all.

[Rat2156]

Just nerf it . It's harming the og classic mana balance .

just wait till you find out about vampiric embrace, brilliance aura, wisdom stacking with totems

dude you are clueless talking about og mana balance on a custom server with the goal of fixing balance. Mana management of vanilla is a failure, the best classes are the ones that don't need to think about managing mana at all.

Mana management is one of the most interesting parts of classic. Your personal skill issues don't make it any less true.

Pretending that removing mana as an element from the game is good is just like pretending raiding with all world buffs is good like the Blizzard Classic like to pretend. You don't care about the quality or the integrity of the game, you just want easy loot

[Balake]

Mana management is one of the most interesting parts of classic. Your personal skill issues don't make it any less true.

Pretending that removing mana as an element from the game is good is just like pretending raiding with all world buffs is good like the Blizzard Classic like to pretend. You don't care about the quality or the integrity of the game, you just want easy loot

What really IS mana management in vanilla. Downranking? As a dps? A moonkin has two things to do, either they cast or they afk. A mage can evocate to extend their casting time somewhat but once all their tools are over they're left wanding.

There is no depth to it, you don't MANAGE mana, you just try to inflate your effective mana pool as much as possible so that it lasts the fight. It's not like TBC or WOTLK arcane mages where they could really choose to burn their mana for burst or conserve it for sustain, in Vanilla there's only one thing you can do, if you downrank on a boss when you're already an underperforming class then IDK what to say.

So in the end, mana management is just a buzzword people repeat to praise vanilla when its been proven that it's just a restriction some classes have without any compensatory upside.

Either your mana pool lasts the fight and you're viable, or it doesn't and you're not viable. There's nothing you can do if it doesn't reach the end of the fight. You can't somehow counterplay the game with your big brain and reduce the cost of your lightning bolt or starfire or whatever.