2023 — February 20

[Terraform]

To be honest everyone saying anything about the hassle of collecting them before raid must end their post with their ingame name. It's all drones repeating the same buzzwords, there can't be that insanely high number of actual raiders in turtle wow regurgitating the same thing without understanding any of the implications of world buff removal.

My character is Lavender, I am so happy world buffs are gone!

[Redmagejoe]

To be honest everyone saying anything about the hassle of collecting them before raid must end their post with their ingame name. It's all drones repeating the same buzzwords, there can't be that insanely high number of actual raiders in turtle wow regurgitating the same thing without understanding any of the implications of world buff removal.

The implication they understand is that an additional list of chores anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour before raid time generally imposed upon them by their raid leader or at least the pressures of the core raiding group is no longer burdening them. Regardless the benefits it provides under ideal circumstances, this is not fun or rewarding. People don't want raiding to feel like a job. When it feels like a job, it is either a failing of the game's design or of the guild community. The onus is no longer on the guild, as it has been addressed from a game design standpoint.

[Ovaron]

very good descicion, kudos dev team!
Dont let the small but loud minority dictate how the server is run.
I imagine adjusting next raid tier will be a lot easier.

[Schwarzschild]

World Buff meta was never "intended" for Vanilla. Good riddance.
Everybody chill, without the need to balance for WBs, the devs can now implement better class changes.

[Balake]

World Buff meta was never "intended" for Vanilla. Good riddance.
Everybody chill, without the need to balance for WBs, the devs can now implement better class changes.

This was always the goal. They executed it badly.
We advocated for progressive world buff removal with progressive class changes. This server does irrational things abruptly, then goes back to "slow and steady" mode when its time to rush and fix things.

The implication they understand is that an additional list of chores anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour before raid time generally imposed upon them by their raid leader or at least the pressures of the core raiding group is no longer burdening them. Regardless the benefits it provides under ideal circumstances, this is not fun or rewarding. People don't want raiding to feel like a job. When it feels like a job, it is either a failing of the game's design or of the guild community. The onus is no longer on the guild, as it has been addressed from a game design standpoint.

If getting world buffs was a chore it would be a great shock to everyone when they know world buffs allowed for less need of consumables and lower repair bills overall. People are gonna be bleeding gold to afford protection potions cause now raid mechanics can just oneshot you when they feel like it.

[Skumbanana]

+1 great news

[Dansch]

To be honest everyone saying anything about the hassle of collecting them before raid must end their post with their ingame name. It's all drones repeating the same buzzwords, there can't be that insanely high number of actual raiders in turtle wow regurgitating the same thing without understanding any of the implications of world buff removal.

After 6 posts of you in a single thread not even 1h old we understand you don't like the changes!

One of the implications of world buff removal you don't get is that class reworks/new raid content creation can be done in a much better way without keeping insanely over-tuned buffs in mind...

[Xudo]

• The following world buffs will no longer work in the raids, not in the existing ones, nor in the upcoming raiding content.

Will worldbuffs work in battlegrounds?
They should not. Because it increases the gap between twinks (who can survive a lot with buff) and non-twinks.

[Redmagejoe]

People are gonna be bleeding gold to afford protection potions cause now raid mechanics can just oneshot you when they feel like it.

I hate to break it to you, but given the lack of appropriate gold sinks in the game, this is a good thing. This may actually improve the health of the economy.

[Xudo]

I hate to break it to you, but given the lack of appropriate gold sinks in the game, this is a good thing. This may actually improve the health of the economy.

Buying things from other players is not goldsink in scale of server. It is just moving money from one player to another.

[Redmagejoe]

Buying things from other players is not goldsink in scale of server. It is just moving money from one player to another.

Increased repair bills due to additional attempts is a gold sink, however. While I understand that player-to-player is not a gold sink, there is a non-zero number of components and goods players will utilize in place of world buffs to increase their power in raids. At the same time, more money moving hands around the server is also good for the economy.

[Sunguru]

So, now we lost optional WBs and have less variety in the way to play late game PvE, which gives players that HC "don't die!" feeling. And this considered good thing by someone. Huh?

[Lichman]

People are gonna be bleeding gold to afford protection potions cause now raid mechanics can just oneshot you when they feel like it.

I hate to break it to you, but given the lack of appropriate gold sinks in the game, this is a good thing. This may actually improve the health of the economy.

You've completely side-stepped the fact that turning raiding in to an even bigger gold-sink is going to lead to a larger amount of time being necessary for farming that gold, both for repairs and consumables. That's on top of the fact that many raids, especially for progression guilds, will take significantly longer. They may even be stretched out across multiple days. How does this avoid the game feeling like a chore, sitting in a raid for five hours on end, rather than farming world buffs for one hour whenever you want in order to finish a single raid in three hours? Oh but of course, being perpetually out of money and farming money to feed the economy really makes the game not feel like a job.

[Kefke]

Please let rogues use poisons with WF totem so they can make proper use of those changes.

Yeah, honestly WF not working with poisons has never made sense. If I'm being honest, most things not working with poisons don't make sense. You could make a realism argument for oils, but that's about it. Balance wise...I could see it if Poisoner was a profession, but it's not. It's a class feature. They have talents for it, and were designed with the expectation they'd be using it. Not letting Rogues poison because they got a weapon buff from another source feels a bit like not letting Priests heal someone because they recently drank a potion.

[Bobettedoores]

Lets give it time to play out and see how it goes

[Kairion]

Please let rogues use poisons with WF totem so they can make proper use of those changes.

Yeah, honestly WF not working with poisons has never made sense. If I'm being honest, most things not working with poisons don't make sense. You could make a realism argument for oils, but that's about it. Balance wise...I could see it if Poisoner was a profession, but it's not. It's a class feature. They have talents for it, and were designed with the expectation they'd be using it. Not letting Rogues poison because they got a weapon buff from another source feels a bit like not letting Priests heal someone because they recently drank a potion.

The game just fundamentally was never built to support multiple temporary weapon enchants. Even when they made them "stack" in wrath they had to replace wf with a flat haste buff.

Having both active at the same time needs soo many changes especially to the client, and you probably still end up using elemental sharpening stones over poisons if you got the chance.

You can also build a group with agility instead of windfury totem to support rogues and their class feature. You just get to choose, whose class feature you want. The only thing that ruins this is the lack of ways to clean your weapon from poisons on demand.

[Kicky78]

When will caster buffs be introduced to compensate for the catastrophic loss in player power from losing world buffs? Hopefully as soon as possible.
+5 spell crit elixir
moonkin aura buffed to 5% and made raid-wide (or reworked into a buff like gift of the wild. "Gift of the moon" increase spell crit for 30 mins or 60 mins for group version)

Very good question. If you remover something, there must be a sort of "compensation" introduced. A buff for spell-crit looks most suitable

[Bearcake103]

You listened to the community regarding world buffs!
You listened to the community regarding shaman/paladin buff interaction!
You listened to the community regarding profession skill requirements on items!

I am just very impressed by the decision making of server admins. This is runescape classic level of professionality <3

[Tamm]

No clue why did you remvoe world buffs, it was up to user to use it or not.

[Kairion]

When will caster buffs be introduced to compensate for the catastrophic loss in player power from losing world buffs? Hopefully as soon as possible.
+5 spell crit elixir
moonkin aura buffed to 5% and made raid-wide (or reworked into a buff like gift of the wild. "Gift of the moon" increase spell crit for 30 mins or 60 mins for group version)

Very good question. If you remover something, there must be a sort of "compensation" introduced. A buff for spell-crit looks most suitable

Your buff came in form of a stacked 44% threat reduction as well as increased tank threat. Its a potentially massive 16% dmg increase if your class can utilize it. Additionally for casters such as moonkin who are mediocore but benefit massively from crit, its now much more feasable to buff them, since you dont have to account for how strong they would be with them

[Dudeface]

This is a massive nerf to naxx mages. 30 warrior raids soon I guess.

You've had almost 20 years to cheese damage meters with world buffs. How much validation from strangers do you actually need?

[Redmagejoe]

No clue why did you remvoe world buffs, it was up to user to use it or not.

Incorrect. It was up to your guild or raid leader whether or not you used it. If you are among the lucky few who were in guilds that did not push this meta, that is good. However, it is incredibly ignorant and/or naive to suggest for one moment that the existence of world buffs as raid crutches has not cultivated a culture of social pressure revolving around their use. Furthermore, just reliant and culture of world buffs makes it very difficult for the dev team to consider how to improve on or continue developing classes when they would have to consider both with and without World buffs in a raid environment.

In other words, this is a net positive that all of the people complaining will come to realize and adapt to in time.

[Fishi]

This is it, fellas
Time to actually fix the classes
Looking forward to shaman buffs <3

[Kefke]

No clue why did you remvoe world buffs, it was up to user to use it or not.

That's a bit of a weak argument. Raiding isn't a solo activity. Sure, an individual player can make the decision to not use World Buffs, and then they can try to explain to ~19-39 other people why they should get a slot in the raid over someone who did go get them.

[Tamm]

No clue why did you remvoe world buffs, it was up to user to use it or not.

Incorrect. It was up to your guild or raid leader whether or not you used it. If you are among the lucky few who were in guilds that did not push this meta, that is good. However, it is incredibly ignorant and/or naive to suggest for one moment that the existence of world buffs as raid crutches has not cultivated a culture of social pressure revolving around their use. Furthermore, just reliant and culture of world buffs makes it very difficult for the dev team to consider how to improve on or continue developing classes when they would have to consider both with and without World buffs in a raid environment.

In other words, this is a net positive that all of the people complaining will come to realize and adapt to in time.

So next patch is alchemy removal - its soo tedious being prepared for raid, yes ?

[Remmo87]

Great changes, turtle-devs.
Though 1 thing is missing.
Please remove debuff limit so that more talent specs makes sense in raiding.
Theres other ways of making raid content harder or more "demanding" than having a
debuff limit that just excludes classes from being viable.

[Xudo]

Please remove debuff limit so that more talent specs makes sense in raiding.

But they did that

• The debuff limit was increased from 24 to 64. You will not see them all under your enemy frame, but they're there server-side. A previous community discussion: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3583

[Sunguru]

It was up to your guild or raid leader whether or not you used it.
<...>
...it is incredibly ignorant and/or naive to suggest for one moment that the existence of world buffs as raid crutches has not cultivated a culture of social pressure revolving around their use...

It's a problem IF your RL/guild forces you to use WBs and IF you can't change guild, but why can't you? Join less rush-progressive-raiding guild, it's up to you, player.

...an individual player can make the decision to not use World Buffs, and then they can try to explain to ~19-39 other people why they should get a slot in the raid over someone who did go get them.

It's a problem IF these other people all use WBs and expect everyone else to do the same, but why would you come with them and not with others?

Furthermore, just reliant and culture of world buffs makes it very difficult for the dev team to consider how to improve on or continue developing classes...

Just a pair of binary variables among hundreds of others can't make it very difficult, mr. drama queen. Even if they can, WBs can be just rebalanced. For example, giving less +crit, but more +def/ap/spd/bh or something (level-based).

[Redmagejoe]

Just a pair of binary variables among hundreds of others can't make it very difficult, mr. drama queen.

The staff themselves have gone on record confirming my exact point about the difficulty it brings to balancing. You seem to think I'm speculating rather than speaking on a data point. Is your next tact to bad-mouth the devs for not being competent enough to design around these radical power increases effectively?

[Kairion]

The whole discussion is mute, since worldbuffs HAD to go to enable Shaman & paladin buffstacking as otherwise the statboosts in combination with Songflower and Zandalar would get absolutely ridiculous. So it was either having Shamans being able to use their toolkit or keeping worldbuffs around. And in that discussion, Making a class be able to use its toolkit should always win over "muh i want bigger number"

Sure Ignite mages got worse without worldbuffs. But that could also have something to do with ignite being bugged in the first place...

[Redmagejoe]

As has been stated, whether you agree with the ultimatum or not, staff made the ultimatum clear a long time ago as being necessary to avoid obscene power spiking. Being petty and passive-aggressive in this thread, on the Discord, and in-game about world buff removal just makes you look like an entitled child.

By doing so, you are telling everyone that you think classes' basic spells, the bread and butter of a player character, should be forbidden in favor of some unnecessary power increase that doesn't make content possible, just more convenient. Your argument is immediately null when you favor casualization over class playability.

[Nerasw]

great step!

[Reploidrocsa]

Rip ZG and onyxia with geared people raids, enjoy cumbersome ones until class changes

[Healingrain]

People are gonna be bleeding gold to afford protection potions cause now raid mechanics can just oneshot you when they feel like it.

I feel like is is exactly backwards. People were only so wary and averse to deaths and being one shot BECAUSE they would lose all their buffs. Getting btfo by flame blossom on MC trash or a Meteor on AQ trash only sucks so much because you lose buffs. Dying once or twice isn't and shouldn't be a huge deal.

[Illyane]

I am not a raider so I can't tell for this change and how it will modify the end-game PVE but I am happy that, finally, the Stormwind guards will find some love :')