World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules

[Xudo]

Just a thought as my insomnia bothers me, but rather than removing world buffs in raids, what about removing world buff stacking overall? Make people choose the one buff that benefits them most, perhaps making the buffs that only do one thing persist through death to make them an attractive alternative to the ones with multiple effects. To prevent players having their buffs overwritten, the city buffs could be opt-in, like how you give confirmation to join a quest (assuming this is possible), but on the other hand, choosing to avoid the areas where a buff one doesn't want drops would also incentivise use of other cities.

Too complex to implement as special dialog. It is better to grant buff when you use that pillar with head. Not just when someone else put it there.

OL and DM might be not retain their usefulness, if their buffs will not be meta.

World buffs can't be dispelled.

[Kairion]

Well Songflower Serenade as well as the DM buffs can be dispelled. Only Dragonslayer, Warchiefs Blessing & Spirit of Zandalar are immune to being dispelled.

But id say thats not an important consideration with chronoboon displacer available and warmode being an opt-in system

[Lightwave]

If we're going to use Season of Mastery as an example, please also remember that they removed the Debuff limit on bosses in Season of Mastery.

[Cortapotty]

Do not remove world buffs and nerf warriors and rogues-rogues slightly less.

Focus on bringing the meme specs (sub-optimal specs) up to par a little bit.

Fixed

[Geojak]

I don't dare about world buffs but pls can I just use my blessing now without having to tell the shaman to stop using mana totem all the time. Oh yes it owuld be nice to use blessing of might and Kings sometimes too.

Thx.

[Kairion]

I don't dare about world buffs but pls can I just use my blessing now without having to tell the shaman to stop using mana totem all the time. Oh yes it owuld be nice to use blessing of might and Kings sometimes too.

Thx.

So you are pro worldbuff removal, as described in the initial post, having combos such as kings, strength & agi totem next to zandalar buff & songflower just too strong, the only way how that will be implemented is when worldbuffs go.

[Remorsx]

IMO if you want to remove world buffs then remove debuff cap as well
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells

[Aykhanchik]

Will we see any updates on this thread from devs? We wanna know what you guys think

[Kefke]

IMO if you want to remove world buffs then remove debuff cap as well
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells

Honestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.

[Steelgrip]

No please.

World Buffs is what makes World of Warcraft alive.

[Pauloricardo]

we should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack

[Pauloricardo]

Is it possible maintain world buffs from raids and make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack?

[Redmagejoe]

we should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack

No we should not.

[Kairion]

we should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack

A warrior wrote this post
The game is seriously broken if you can stack all the best buffs in the game with eachother. Rogue Straightup becomes immune to any melee damage when stacking all these buffs and decent gear.

Let that sink in, he can literally tank Patchwork solo for 8min 30 seconds without any healer

[Shamma]

we should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack

A warrior wrote this post
The game is seriously broken if you can stack all the best buffs in the game with eachother. Rogue Straightup becomes immune to any melee damage when stacking all these buffs and decent gear.

Let that sink in, he can literally tank Patchwork solo for 8min 30 seconds without any healer

They can already do it. Garr was recently killed by 4 ppl with a rogue tank.

[Snakeman]

Do not remove world buffs and nerf warriors and rogues-rogues slightly less.

Focus on bringing the meme specs (sub-optimal specs) up to par a little bit.

Fixed

There is absolutely no way to bring meme specs "up to par" without first disabling world buffs in raids.

The paladin changes from last year have brought ret somewhat into viability in a raid setting, but they're on death knight levels of broken in PvP. If we want to foster any kind of battleground community on this server, we cannot just go making class changes willy-nilly while we still have world buffs in raids.

Warriors are fine - having both kings/might and strength of earth totem at once is already gonna give them world buff levels of attack power on bloodthirst, not to mention they'd still have windfury with that combo

[Remorsx]

IMO if you want to remove world buffs then remove debuff cap as well
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells

Honestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.

wholeheartly agree

[Tllap]

IMO if you want to remove world buffs then remove debuff cap as well
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells

Honestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.

I agree. Its rly needed.

[Remmo87]

To remove world buffs is plainly foolish, all this would result in is a harder stacking of classes for raiding, allowing shaman and paladin buffs to stack narrows the field since you advantage warriors and rogues a hell of a lot more than casters like this. You now open up double threat reduction and WF/BoK/M stacked warrior and rogue groups, you now have less reason to take more than a token group of casters and druids.

Hear hear

[Remmo87]

Remove wbuffs and remove debuff limit.
That calls for more class balance.

The stacking of shaman and pally buffs
is just straight up insane.

[Schwarzschild]

Removing world buffs, making totems+blessings stack, AND removing the debuff limit were all done in TBC. And that is a GOOD thing.

I'm afraid that just because of that, the Devs are hesitant to implement these changes here, as they might make TWoW "more like TBC" and "less Vanilla". However, this thinking is flawed. TBC just finished a lot of trains of thought that were started in Vanilla. If TWoW wants to be a Vanilla+, then naturally, it should not be afraid to adopt certain aspects of TBC.

(my personal opinion is that, if you would take all gameplay aspects of TBC, e.g., honor system, crafting, class reworks, raid rules regarding world buffs and debuffs, and transplant them into the old vanilla world without flying, capped at lvl 60, but with added dungeons and zones, you would have a pretty solid foundation for a Vanilla+ vision right there)

Also, the historic background for certain "design" decisions in Vanilla needs to be considered:

World buffs were NEVER intended to be used in the way they are (ab)used now. They were simply meant as a cool gimmick, nothing more. Disabling them in raids would therefore actually get the game closer to the original Vanilla vision.

The debuff limit was never intended to be a feature, supposedly creating a challenge in the form of some obscure "debuff slot management". Like the lower server tick rate at the time, it was simply implemented to limit the data transfer rate in an age of 56 kbit modems and limit graphical effects when people ran the game on a S3 Virge.

One could go on: In interviews, Vanilla Devs admitted that they did not have the time to flesh out all three talent specs for each class and instead focused on making sure that at least one spec per class was raid viable (for the hybrids it was only their healing trees). Therefore, further class changes (empowering memespecs etc) are actually in line with a Vanilla+ vision.

[Roa7175]

I agree with what Schwarzschild said.

Honestly, Turtle has gone it's own way and there is obviously nothing wrong with taking something good from later expansions and implementing it in Turtle so that the game will feel overall better.

[Reploidrocsa]

If we can get rid of buff/debuff cap, make hots stack and blessings/totems stack i would be ok by getting rid of world buffs in raids

[Schwarzschild]

If we can get rid of buff/debuff cap, make hots stack and blessings/totems stack i would be ok by getting rid of world buffs in raids

Exactly. It is the "TBC philosophy" and should not be avoided just because of that. It just makes sense and, according to the Vanilla devs, it simply finished what they were not able to finish in time for Vanilla (unlike WotLK, which started to completely revamp many aspects of the game).

There would, however be a resulting power creep in 5er-dungeons, where world buffs are rarely used, but where stackable totems+blessings would be felt. Nevertheless, it will not be too significant I think, and maybe it will motivate more people to play Shaman (one of the least played classes atm).

[Luuk]

Shaman and paladin buffs should stack. They can't bring their signature skills into group content. Should warlocks be unable to summon a demon when a hunter pet is in their team? Should Arcane intellect overwrite PW:F? Should druids be locked out of cat form when they have a rogue in their team?

Why pit paladins and shaman against each other while all other classes can bring their full utility kit to the group?

If you have to remove world buffs to do this then by all means, do it. As mentioned before they were supposed to be a gimmick anyway

[Dasore]

This poll has been open for ages now, people hate grinding for wbs, which usually takes longer then the actual raid. Where is the respond of the devs and when will they finally be removed? Looks like a few people who like wbs got their head to far up some devs a.., so we ll never have them removed...

[Gantulga]

Reposting my idea from another thread here:

Instead of removing an iconic part of the game, keep them as is BUT raid bosses would get an aura which suspends the effects of all world buffs while engaged.
This way they can still be used to speed up trash pack clears, which is the main argument in favor of world buffs, and a perfectly valid one.

[Redmagejoe]

Reposting my idea from another thread here:

Instead of removing an iconic part of the game, keep them as is BUT raid bosses would get an aura which suspends the effects of all world buffs while engaged.
This way they can still be used to speed up trash pack clears, which is the main argument in favor of world buffs, and a perfectly valid one.

I think you may find that world buffs are not necessary for fast trash clears when both shaman/paladin stacking is implemented and debuff limit is entirely removed. Debuff limit removal alone means a huge amount of additional damage from classes not previously allowed to place them is suddenly happening. Moonfire, Insect Swarm, Rend, Deep Wounds, Immolate, Curse of Agony, Corruption, Shadow Word Pain, Flame Shock, multiply all these by the number of each class in the raid, etc etc etc

[Remmo87]

Should warlocks be unable to summon a demon when a hunter pet is in their team? Should Arcane intellect overwrite PW:F? Should druids be locked out of cat form when they have a rogue in their team?

So Arcane Intellect should also stack?
So if there's 7 mages you can have 7 AI on you?
Same as PW:F ?

Ain't that what we are talking about?
Stacking of buffs like that is crazy.
Totems and blessings are no different.
They should NOT be able to stack.
Just like all other buffs are not.

But remove debuff limit and remove world buffs.

[Redmagejoe]

That's not even comparable to Paladin/Shaman stacking and you know it. You can already have multiple different buffs that stack the exact same effect (Arcane Intellect, Intellect Well Fed buff), but we are talking about buffs that affect two different stats even if they end up having similar final effects. It's a false equivalence and you know it; don't be obtuse.

Paladin: Buff that gives Melee Attack Power
Shaman: Place a totem that gives Strength (gives less AP but also gives block value to tanks)

Paladin: Buff that gives mana regen every 5 seconds as an energize
Shaman: Place a totem that gives much smaller mana regen every 2 seconds as an energize, but lower overall regen

Paladin: Place a debuff that gives melee attackers a chance to get HP on hit
Shaman: Place a totem that gives a little health every few seconds

Paladin: Buff that gives +10% to all stats
Shaman: Place a totem that gives a chance for an extra attack on hit

Paladin: Aura that increases Armor, roughly translating to a % reduction in physical damage that varies per player
Shaman: Place a totem that lowers physical damage by a small flat amount
ALSO PALADIN: Primary tank buff

These are just some of their analogues, but with the exception of Mana Spring Totem and Blessing of Wisdom, how are these the same buffs?

[Remmo87]

The only mistake you might have made there is saying
"You know it"


No, i don't know it. The question is should Paladins blessings stack?
And should Shamans totems stack?

No, i do not think they should.
And i do not know anything that would make me think otherwise.
If this is not the question, i think the question is worded very wrong.

EDIT:
If your point is correct, im convinced the questions should have been worded:
"Should shamans totems stack with paladins blessings?"

My answer to that would be yes.

Thats not the case though.
The question has been worded:
"Should Shaman's totems +(and) Paladin's blessings stack?"

My answer to that is NO

[Kefke]

Split that hair any finer, and you'd need a microscope to see it...

[Remmo87]

Split that hair any finer, and you'd need a microscope to see it...

Thats ok. But im not splitting it any finer than this.
Doesnt matter really, cos it seems like it will be a "yes" vote.

Lets hope they worded the question wrong.

[Luuk]

Should warlocks be unable to summon a demon when a hunter pet is in their team? Should Arcane intellect overwrite PW:F? Should druids be locked out of cat form when they have a rogue in their team?

So Arcane Intellect should also stack?
So if there's 7 mages you can have 7 AI on you?
Same as PW:F ?

Ain't that what we are talking about?

No.

The point is that paladins and shamans get punished for grouping together while all other classes have nothing to worry about.

[Lightwave]

Split that hair any finer, and you'd need a microscope to see it...

Thats ok. But im not splitting it any finer than this.
Doesnt matter really, cos it seems like it will be a "yes" vote.

Lets hope they worded the question wrong.

You seem to be misinterpreting the point of this poll, deliberately or not.
Turtle WoW has a system in place that prevents you from benefiting from Paladin Buffs and Shaman buffs of the same nature at the same time. For example, Blessing of Wisdom will be removed by Mana Spring Totem.

This Poll isn't about making multiple instances of the buffs stack with themselves, it's about allowing an individual to benefit from Totems and Blessings at the same time.