World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules

[Velite]

If I need the buffs to cut it before I get my raid gear what's the point in getting to 60? That's really my only concern, mostly due to inexperience.

As of now, you can complete all content in the game without using world buffs. It's totally doable so long as you meet the gear requirements as a raid and use consumables and follow mechanics. World buffs purely exist to cut down on time and increase your maximum hits. If your raid is relying on world buffs to kill a boss period, then you're not prepared for it to begin with and that's just taking shortcuts.

The point to getting 60 is that BWL and all further raids require you to be level 60 to enter. And most raid gear past MC requires level 60 to equip. The point is also to go and focus on getting your pre-raid gear before you step into an instance so you're at least prepared to upgrade those slots to the next step. And I don't mean upgrade that you strictly need those items to get the next ones, but that it shows the other people in the raid that you aren't just there straight fresh 60 looking for a gear handout.

[Isvya]

If you are really going to remove WBs then at least consider removing the debuff slot cap too.

[Greatgrass]

If you are really going to remove WBs then at least consider removing the debuff slot cap too.

this is a fantastic suggestion. please do.

[Martikos]

+1

[Kuz]

If you are really going to remove WBs then at least consider removing the debuff slot cap too.

THIS

[Neoulous]

Actually taking this decision is imposing this solution to optimised people who make logistic to take it and don’t want it.

Why don’t we give both ? Instead of killing a part of the game because it was not in the origin ?

Please take it in consideration. With keeping it, people will always have the choice. If you remove it, there will be no choice.

[Neoulous]

Don’t forget WB are reducing dps gap between geared people and no-geared people. At last, only gear will talk in raid, so why doing raid if there is no competition ?

[Suggney]

We're against this approach because the leveling folk will become raiders one day, they should be able to have a say on their future.

Is there no loyalty to those who've actually been here long enough to better gauge the impact of changes? This feels like pandering to the new population influx.

You're only hurting the people who are raiding higher tier content. Those who raid for fun instead of gear will have less fun; those who raid for gear will no longer have the assistance of the raiders who are no longer having fun - and suddenly their fun might just be gone too.

I get you're a small dev team looking to make everybody happy, but pause. You advertise as an RP server, yet have thrown out nearly all support for roleplayers beyond transmogrification and assisting players in events they made. You advertise as a PVE server, yet incentivize PVP with experience bonuses and now seek to remove an integral part of doing PVE content faster. You've advertised class changes, yet they've done more for the PVP scene - which you do not advertise as - than they have in shaking up the raiding meta.

Please, consolidate the things Turtle already has. Focus on what you've already changed and improve those things. There's existing cracks to mend, and this change is driving a new one. Don't take candy from a baby before you can replace it.

[Redmagejoe]

Is there no loyalty to those who've actually been here long enough to better gauge the impact of changes? This feels like pandering to the new population influx.

And this sounds like demanding bending a knee only to the old guard / elite / whatever you want to call it while ignoring the fresh blood. No matter how you look at it, so long as you try to frame it as "being about specific group of people" instead of accepting that it's a design decision that affects other aspects of development and balance, it's going to be reductive. Let's try to avoid asking loaded questions like "HAST THOU NO LOYALTY?!" in this topic and actually try to discuss the change on its merits or shortcomings.

[Chnams]

If you are really going to remove WBs then at least consider removing the debuff slot cap too.

This oh god please this

[Ayesha]

After reading through this forum I think this would make sense:
If you want to remove world buffs from raids, you need to buff casters in raids - because that’s were they are getting nerfed compared to melees.

The way to balance this could be:
1. Removing or increasing the debuff slot cap
2. Increasing moonkin aura spell crit chance

Maybe shadow priests and arcane mages as well other caster classes have something else to say.

[Shamma]

Remove WBs, buff raids too at the same time. One thing SoM did right. Enough with the old boring raids ppl can do with their eyes closed.

[Lagtime]

id rather quit then have longer raid nights, just make the content harder instead of pleasing filthy casuals that never raid anyways.
your gonna end up with fewer raids/pugs iff people dont need new zg / ony buffs
id rather see a gold sink vendor selling world buffs if preparing is to stressfull for some then full removal.

better remove people turning pvp flag off too in contested zones how could someone steal a node/herb without a fight for it? its world of (grief)warcraft not hug a tree craft..

world pvp on best farming spots is what makes a mmo feel alive

[Lagtime]

Season of mastery had no world buffs we all saw what a flop that was.
iff you cant manage to get your world buffs being summond by guild alts because your working all day get them the day before? or accept not parsing 1 week. removing the fun for some because most people are lazy is.....

[Redmagejoe]

Season of Mastery was a flop for many more reasons than simply "no world buffs". Let's try not to oversimplify that trainwreck. Also your takes in general from your only two posts are anything but the common outlook of the server population, I'm sorry to say.

[Velite]

Season of mastery had no world buffs we all saw what a flop that was.
iff you cant manage to get your world buffs being summond by guild alts because your working all day get them the day before? or accept not parsing 1 week. removing the fun for some because most people are lazy is.....

Except it's the developers asking this question. Not a player. And it's not about effort to get them or anything like that either. It's about class changes.

[Elonamusk]

To pretend that anyone will use Tranquil Air totem even if it stacks with Salvation is hilarious.

[Shamma]

To pretend that anyone will use Tranquil Air totem even if it stacks with Salvation is hilarious.

/sarcasm end?

[Xef42]

World buffs being removed and shaman totems stacking with paladin blessings could be the best change yet.

[Riktor]

As a hunter, I'd be behind this change if you make Blessing of Might also be for ranged attack power vs. just melee attack power.

We don't get the benefit from strength of earth totem stacking with Blessing of Kings, we will literally never get grace of air totem over warriors/rogues in our groups getting windfury.

Stacking a hunter group doesn't make sense since Trueshot aura doesn't stack etc.

Hunter's don't really gain anything in this situation outside of now kings isn't overwritten by strength of earth.

[Xudo]

World buffs affect low level players during battlegrounds.
It is great that there are 10-19 and 30-39 possible and can be played every day.
But when enemy twinks joins with world buffs, they are very hard to beat.
They put almost no effort to get those buffs and they get very strong advantage.

I voted "Yes" and ask to remove worldbuffs not only in raids, but on battlegrounds too.

[Toaomb]

My friends are all highly competitive raiders in the classic scene and universal opinion seems to be that world buffs in raid make the content too cheesy, but tipping the scales by buffing melee seems a little risky due to stacking classes meta. I think there should be no world buffs but some form of compensation to casters. Maybe instead of taking buffs away, when you enter a raid you instantly get all buffs and the content is scaled to be much harder?

[Redmagejoe]

My friends are all highly competitive raiders in the classic scene and universal opinion seems to be that world buffs in raid make the content too cheesy, but tipping the scales by buffing melee seems a little risky due to stacking classes meta. I think there should be no world buffs but some form of compensation to casters. Maybe instead of taking buffs away, when you enter a raid you instantly get all buffs and the content is scaled to be much harder?

Refining content is much harder than just removing overpowered buffs. People seem to believe that things should just be adjusted with a slider that ups damage and HP, but that's an incredibly shallow adjustment that seldom yields something that is properly more difficult and instead just raises a gear ceiling. Yes, tuning raid content so that it is actually challenging would be wonderful, but would require an entire intense development cycle to achieve and might not be usable until a year or more down the road.

[Ugoboom]

My friends are all highly competitive raiders in the classic scene and universal opinion seems to be that world buffs in raid make the content too cheesy, but tipping the scales by buffing melee seems a little risky due to stacking classes meta. I think there should be no world buffs but some form of compensation to casters. Maybe instead of taking buffs away, when you enter a raid you instantly get all buffs and the content is scaled to be much harder?

buff armor values back to tbc values or even higher
this allows spell meele like rets to catchup with their effective full armorpen and casters to just generaly catch up
and allows arp gear to be useful beyond the 216 armor we get most boses down to

[Gantulga]

It would be infinitely better to simply rebalance the buffs so that they benefit all specs equally, toning down some outliers.
WF and blessing stacking just works in favor of fury zug zug more than anything else, exacerbating this balance issue further.

Why not tone down the amount of trash in some raids or reduce their hit points?

[Ugoboom]

It would be infinitely better to simply rebalance the buffs so that they benefit all specs equally, toning down some outliers.
WF and blessing stacking just works in favor of fury zug zug more than anything else, exacerbating this balance issue further.

Why not tone down the amount of trash in some raids or reduce their hit points?

you can do both. indeed the insanely long time vanilla raids take to clear needs to be remedied. this is far better done by toning down armor and hp of mobs, and the bullshitness of mechanics they do (patchwerk trash 360 cleaving warstomp oneshotting :puke:)

the issue of wbuffs is that, do you tune new raid encounters to require them? if so, you only get 1 attempt to kill them per week. wipe and lose the buffs? welp the raid is done, its over boys lets throw the towel in.

Or if you balance the new raids to not require buffs, then you just make prog far more trivial than it needs to be and you end up repeating the mistake of vanilla all over again.

wbuffs being limited nonreproducable consumes creates this dumb meta

[Isvya]

If you are really going to remove WBs then at least consider removing the debuff slot cap too.

What a great idea

[Jmilesi]

So... We all rerolling warrior or rogue now?

[Venytas]

Just give us both. If neccesary nerf wbuffs a bit. but at the end i think being able to combine the buffs is more important than having wbuff because it impacts more players

[Jmilesi]

I don't see a problema with world buffs, people got the wrong idea after all the world buff meta during Classic Wow and most of these never raid Naxx or AQ20 anyway.
To stack shammy and pally buffs is bad, shamans always raid in melee groups to use WF totem. This change only benefits warriors and rogues and they already are the best DPS.
If you guys wanna stack both buffs you should somehow encourage shamans to play in ranged DPS groups, reworking the elemental shaman or something.
People that voted Yes clearly didnt think this through or play main warrior.

[Shamma]

Raided on classic from MC to Naxx. Did not skip a week. Played a mage. Hated WBs with a passion all the time. We cleared all content w/o WBs too.

Thought it very well through. To hell with WBs.

[Jmilesi]

My problem is not with the WBs, keep it or leave it, I dont care.
My problem is with the buffs stacking only consolidating the Warrior meta, thats what I was reffering to when I said "people that voted Yes didnt think this through".

[Geojak]

As a paladin is thought is trough.

My blessings not removed is all I need.

I care little about warrior meta in raids, I dont care about wold buffs, I care about the absurdity of shamans and paladins the same group. It must be fixed. I have priorities. Warriors needing a nerf is a separate topic from this

[Yirman]

My problem is not with the WBs, keep it or leave it, I dont care.
My problem is with the buffs stacking only consolidating the Warrior meta, thats what I was reffering to when I said "people that voted Yes didnt think this through".

While I agree that totems+blessings stacking mostly affects Melee Physical Damage dealers (and in a positive way), removing world buffs also hit the same group the hardest, since they scale the best with current world buffs. It seems fair to assume that the result of the suggested change, should it go through, will not affect the raiding meta, while a lot of annoyances of buffs overwriting each other is removed. This seems like a win to me.

If WB's are not removed at the time totems+blessings stack, then aforementioned scaling of melee physical damage dealers only keeps outscaling the others, consolidating the warrior meta further. At such, both should go, or both should stay in my opinion.

I voted yes to remove WB's and have blessings and totems stack, not because I think it will change the meta in any way, but because of the annoyances of having a shaman and paladin in the same group or raid.

[Kerenis]

Greetings!

Any news on this? its been more than 3 weeks ago