Sad pvp situation

[Ataika]

(the topic not about TelAbim but twow pvp situation in general)

The pvp server is completely dead

Main server
- 0 blood ring (day)
- 0 av
- 0 ab
- 1 warsong game (29 min que)

Post your ideas why pvp scene became abysmol and suggestions how devs can revive it.

[Zvyrhol]

Assumption that devs can revive "dead" server is wrong. There is no way to increase population unless you offer something very desirable for WoW players, something desirable enough that RP-PVE server doesn't offer. My opinion is that no matter what devs will change about Tel'Abim in PvP it won't change much in population of the server. It's already too late. Only miracle might save Tel'Abim.

[Ataika]

Assumption that devs can revive "dead" server is wrong. There is no way to increase population unless you offer something very desirable for WoW players, something desirable enough that RP-PVE server doesn't offer. My opinion is that no matter what devs will change about Tel'Abim in PvP it won't change much in population of the server. It's already too late. Only miracle might save Tel'Abim.

Tel'abim is done indeed. All potential changes able to rivive this server wont come fast and in time cause they are not ready and take a lot of time to implement. so the server is doomed, it was clear 3 months ago.

Iam more concearned about the main one since it still has a glimpse of pvp scene that can be lost completely unless something is done.

@Something@ is a subject to discuss

[Bjorn88]

Well, worst thing comes to show and they merge the servers, you can bet on me harrassing warmode players.

Vengeance for tel'abim.

[Frantsel]

Do we really need to talk anymore about this?

Balancing is completely broken..

[Fizzler]

The pvp server is completely dead

Main server
- 0 blood ring (day)
- 0 av
- 0 ab
- 1 warsong game (29 min que)

Post your ideas why pvp scene became abysmol and suggestions how devs can revive it.

add HC to Tel'abim so we get some levelers there.

[Frantsel]

Make crossfaction in bgs, that would help alot. So both factions have at least same outcomes..

[Spot]

The PvP realm needs to be advertised outside the Turtle WoW community. Can’t expect a PvE community to populate the realm.

[Forbearance]

Class changes are just around the corner, it will save Tel'Abim. Don't worry man.

[Imonobor]

Glyphs should help. Class changes might as well. But most of all, that PvP update they have on their roadmap about the pvp gearing overhaul, ranking overhaul, and pvp world objectives. If those don't help we might as well give up hope, but for now there IS hope.

[Nitaya]

PvPers asked for a PvP server, they received it.
By now for everybody (except for the delusional ones who think the PvP server is the future of Turtle Wow), it should be clear that the majority of the players are not interested in that. Developers can't fix a player problem.

Also my thoughts on a PvP-oriented server:
A dedicated PvP server should have an entirely different ruleset since it should be focusing on outdoor PvP.
(Less zones to be available, to make them more dense. Turn off most of the instances and loot should be coming from the given zones H/A town or other PvP objectives, Leaderboards, not just horde vs alliance but competing of smaller groups)

But somehow making sure players will not be discouraged by the 2 common causes of leaving a PvP server: Being outnumbered and being ganked by way higher levels. (if you don't believe me just check older Blizzard forums)

I know the bloodthirsty PvP players will say that: it's part of the game. Get over it, gank back, organize, etc. but exactly that kind of toxicity (and they will believe that's not toxic behavior) will drive away the majority of the players.

However, I doubt turtle wow developers have the resources and time to focus on that aspect, this is not their vision of the game. Maybe a different V+ server will implement such.

[Typh1]

What a bunch of bullcrap ^

[Typh1]

Don't like pvp? don't play mmo in general, go play The Sims.

[Typh1]

Always these obvious pve realm white knights entering a discussion about a server they ain't even play on

[Ataika]

this topic is not only about TelAbim but twow pvp in general
Nordanaar pvp also crumbles

[Trevor89]

For sure ganking discourages; on the other hand creating wPvP oriented events (such as ashenvale and stv sod ones without lag) can be attractive.
But in general u need casual players to get a mmo state whereas if something fits for elite players then it is like the not-so-appreciated retail.

[Xudo]

If topic is not about Tel'Abim, then following could work:
1. Rework of PvP system (or alternative PvP gearing path)
2. Experience in BR/battlegrounds (to let pvp players grow up by pvp only, without grinding mobs)
3. Nerf high level enchantment on low level gear (to equalize field and strip power from twinks)
4. Class changes (so you don't get one-shotted by paladins in every bracket)

[Nitaya]

this topic is not only about TelAbim but twow pvp in general
Nordanaar pvp also crumbles

If you ask 10 ppl, everybody will have a different opinion.
But here are my thoughts. (without mentioning class balance)

BGs:
The general concept of PvP is based on both sides having nearly equal amount of players with equal gears, and equal skills.
But that is never the case.
The problem is if 1 side is generally stronger due to 1 aspect, they will remain stronger. It's not an FPS where you lose a round and the next one you will have different players, maybe the ones that were in the winning team last time.

No, you are stuck with them and you will be in a loop.
Players will not balance themselves, If you are winning you don't want to join the losing side. (especially since it takes a lot of time).
You just tell them to l2p and ask GMs to punish them even further.
On the other hand, the weaker side will be joining the winning one, creating more and more problems.

How to fix it?
Multiple ways -> Crossfaction BG is the easiest solution but IMO, there can be other alternatives but that takes a lot of work to make. I Don't even know if these can be implemented.
Example:
Create new battlegrounds that are not about 2 teams that are HORDE VS ALLIANCE.
I know the whole wow is about Horde vs Alliance but c'mon give some alternatives.

Make a BG where 3 teams are competing in a king of the hill style.
Make a large outdoor BG where 10 groups of 3 ppl are competing all of them with 1 life in a last-man-standing style.
Create rated arenas for 3v3, 5v5.
People love titles leaderboards/achievements. All of these BGs / Arenas should have a leaderboard and temporary titles.

Gear:
You need decent gear to truly enjoy PvP. You are fresh lvl 60? You probably won't have much enjoyment.
The time it takes to get epic repu gear from PvP factions is simply not worth it. You can go to MC with a PUG and get gear in 1 hour. PvP gear needs weeks/months of grinding.

PvE gear outshines PvP gear.
These are ideas, that come to mind, without much afterthought:
There should be properly tiered PvP gear. (Not just a set but all other accessories)
Tier 1 (blue)-> craftable, various repu rewards on Friendly + buyable from PvP tokens + honor points.
Tier 2 (blue with 1-2 epic) -> Repu rewards on honored/revered, buyable using PvP tokens + honor points.
Tier 3 (epic) -> Exalted rewards + you must be on the leaderboard in the top XX% in certain BGs and/or arenas for certain items (Similar to the rating requirements for arena gear in TBC)

High lvl PvE gear (AQ / NAX) should not be allowed in BGs/Aren or they should provide certain debuffs, like increased dmg taken.

So these are my ideas but hey, in 10 minutes somebody will comment this is all bullshit and PvP is fine as it is, and all I need to do is L2Play.

[Xudo]

this topic is not only about TelAbim but twow pvp in general
Nordanaar pvp also crumbles

If you ask 10 ppl, everybody will have a different opinion.
But here are my thoughts. (without mentioning class balance)

BGs:
The general concept of PvP is based on both sides having nearly equal amount of players with equal gears, and equal skills.
But that is never the case.
The problem is if 1 side is generally stronger due to 1 aspect, they will remain stronger. It's not an FPS where you lose a round and the next one you will have different players, maybe the ones that were in the winning team last time.

I agree. Gear disparity on 60 lvl makes things worse.
Even t1 vs green difference is huge. Even enchanted blue vs green on lvl 19 feels hopeless. What can you tell about t3 vs fresh green 60?
It leads to AFKers in battlegrounds, defending single base in arathi, avoiding Wsg. Gear disparity is the source of all current negative effects.
People are forced to PvE first and PvP second. It won't work.

[Typh1]

Gear disparity is a good part of what vanilla made good. FUCK everyone having equal gear and fuck inclusion.

[Xudo]

Gear disparity is a good part of what vanilla made good. FUCK everyone having equal gear and fuck inclusion.

Feel free playing with yourself with this attitude.

[Trevor89]

Dear Nitaya, I understand a lot of ur points and I want to share "The problem is if 1 side is generally stronger" phrase:

Considering Nordanaar, for example that's the case for ally in AV mainly for faction population disparity (https://turtle-wow.org/population-graph); on the other hand in WSG and AB, a lot of time u have a side with a bunch of casual players and a side with power PvP players (stun resistance, anti-fear button, AQ40/Naxx gears and consumables and mount speed bonuses).

Of course, adding new PvP contest can be apprieciated by some player but it not necessarily would increases the amount of players joining battlegrounds. Very often as ally I have to wait in AV or BA queues to get call into the bg, whereas I got a faster call for WSG and AB likely meaning that hordes have to wait in these two cases.

Imo cross-faction bg alone aren't the solution; in servers where cross-faction is possible, people tend to complain about challenging twink-out teams with graveyard camping situations.
I can accept and appreciate cross-faction BGs if there's a rare cap gear or if the "join as group" become also unable in WSG and in AB.

As for the PvP rewards, I think the situation is really bad; the player have to marry the game and joining BGs successively 24/7 for several month to reach a decent PvP gear;
Also it should be fair to get a new PvP gear to farm when fresh PvE content grants a new ones; in this regard, I would reintroduce a weekly SOFT-decay of the honor points to keep up the seasonal of new PvP farmable gears and I would halve the amount of honor required to get new ranks for every ranks;
At the end of the day it's also about dopamine and no rewards, no dopamine then no joining BGs. ty.

[Jkldsngkljsng]

PvPers asked for a PvP server, they received it.

No PvP'er asked for it, they were against it.
It's only levellers who wanted world PvP and freeeeeiiiissshh crowd who begged for it.
And that's what when a server says "PvP" it only means there is forced world PvP and when a server says it's "PvE" it only means there is no mandatory world PvP. That's it, it's the only difference.

[Jkldsngkljsng]

PvP on Turtle is butchered (making Turtle no longer Vanilla) because they didn't put a competent PvP developer on the team years ago.

[Nitaya]

Of course, adding new PvP contest can be apprieciated by some player but it not necessarily would increases the amount of players joining battlegrounds. Very often as ally I have to wait in AV or BA queues to get call into the bg, whereas I got a faster call for WSG and AB likely meaning that hordes have to wait in these two cases.

We are on a theoretical level, whatever I say, cannot be proven.
But why do I think it would increase the number of players who are queuing in case of introducing new BGs that are not solely Horde vs Alliance or 1 team vs another team?

Games/modes, where the main aspect is one team vs another team rather than FFA or multiple (3+) teams fighting each other usually turn into super competitive. (And I have played tons of DOTA in the War3 era and other custom modes as well. A footman frenzy was never as competitive as Dota or Castle Fight. Or we can compare CS/team-based FPS vs any battle royal game)
In current BGs. On the losing side: Weaker / Less geared ppl will be called out, ppl will blame others, if you are constantly losing without any chance you will be discouraged to continue as you are not seeing any success. Also, it's not really attractive to the casual players. Being instakilled / graveyard camped is fun for some players, but not for the other team. All this creates is frustration and anger among many players, especially for those who really want to win.

However in case of a mode, where there are lots of teams, like a battle royal / last-man standing. - that I have mentioned as an example.
Sure, you can die quickly but hey you wasted 5 minutes.
Even if you are not the best geared, you can still have success.
You encounter 2 geared / skilled teams skirmish and you manage to kill them as they were on low HP. You won't necessarily win the match but you achieved some success/excitement.
There won't be that many tryhards in chat, people will be less likely to call you out since there are 9 teams that are losing and only 1 is winning.
Winning will feel better but losing won't feel as bad since you are sharing with others, who are not part of your team.

all in all, such matches can't be taken as seriously as current BGs, and IMO that would attract more (casual) players.
But again, that's only my opinion. I have no evidence it would work. But certain BGs should be taken lightly and not the super tryhard way as it is now and maybe that would be a solution for it.

[Ataika]

Of course, adding new PvP contest can be apprieciated by some player but it not necessarily would increases the amount of players joining battlegrounds. Very often as ally I have to wait in AV or BA queues to get call into the bg, whereas I got a faster call for WSG and AB likely meaning that hordes have to wait in these two cases.

We are on a theoretical level, whatever I say, cannot be proven.
But why do I think it would increase the number of players who are queuing in case of introducing new BGs that are not solely Horde vs Alliance or 1 team vs another team?

Games/modes, where the main aspect is one team vs another team rather than FFA or multiple (3+) teams fighting each other usually turn into super competitive. (And I have played tons of DOTA in the War3 era and other custom modes as well. A footman frenzy was never as competitive as Dota or Castle Fight. Or we can compare CS/team-based FPS vs any battle royal game)
In current BGs. On the losing side: Weaker / Less geared ppl will be called out, ppl will blame others, if you are constantly losing without any chance you will be discouraged to continue as you are not seeing any success. Also, it's not really attractive to the casual players. Being instakilled / graveyard camped is fun for some players, but not for the other team. All this creates is frustration and anger among many players, especially for those who really want to win.

However in case of a mode, where there are lots of teams, like a battle royal / last-man standing. - that I have mentioned as an example.
Sure, you can die quickly but hey you wasted 5 minutes.
Even if you are not the best geared, you can still have success.
You encounter 2 geared / skilled teams skirmish and you manage to kill them as they were on low HP. You won't necessarily win the match but you achieved some success/excitement.
There won't be that many tryhards in chat, people will be less likely to call you out since there are 9 teams that are losing and only 1 is winning.
Winning will feel better but losing won't feel as bad since you are sharing with others, who are not part of your team.

all in all, such matches can't be taken as seriously as current BGs, and IMO that would attract more (casual) players.
But again, that's only my opinion. I have no evidence it would work. But certain BGs should be taken lightly and not the super tryhard way as it is now and maybe that would be a solution for it.

People are not upsed because they lost, people upset because they arent rewarded when they lost.
Once pvp remade into "we play bgs for fun and not for gear" the losing factor wont be so severe anymore.

[Galindae]

add pvp events in pvp server. (and only for pvp realm, let pve realm has their own coockies)
trall orc hero boss attacking stormwind or vice versa vryn attacking undercity. (for example)
2. finally add low level pvp set gear from batlegrounds. only pvp set is 60. some items are for low byt few.
3. redesign pvp system , like add pvp abilities for ranks. with their own tree pvp focused. so ppl feel that pvp rank has impact of your gameplay. not just title or after 60 better pvp gear. till that u dont feel pvp ranks impact u or give u something.
4. make more xp in battlegrounds, give honor boost for underground faction (with less % players faction)

[Deeno]

This short exchange sums up my Tel'Abim experience:

Gear disparity is a good part of what vanilla made good. FUCK everyone having equal gear and fuck inclusion.

Feel free playing with yourself with this attitude.

This also aligns why dedicated telabim players are "having fun, join us", but not many casuals remain. Its not about the gearing itself, but the approach how they want to save the realm. What they want and making them having fun is not the same what the realm needs/needed.

(I may share my suggestions about vanilla pvp and telabim as well if i get some time for it.)
(No, im not saying everyone should have the same gear, just the vanilla gearing and good pvp environment cannot exist together)

[Bjorn88]

People are not upsed because they lost, people upset because they arent rewarded when they lost.
Once pvp remade into "we play bgs for fun and not for gear" the losing factor wont be so severe anymore.

But they are. They get honor and rep which eventually gets them gear, just less than the winners. Which is entirely as it should be. The "everyone gets a participation medal" mentality is so frustratingly reoccuring on these forums.

Also, people request of twow team to make new BGs when SGV shows that it is not really their field of competence. Even if they try, odds are noone will play it as AB and WSG are true and tested. What they could do is copy-paste EotS and change the scenery to not be in space (lol).

[Ataika]

People are not upsed because they lost, people upset because they arent rewarded when they lost.
Once pvp remade into "we play bgs for fun and not for gear" the losing factor wont be so severe anymore.

But they are. They get honor and rep which eventually gets them gear, just less than the winners. Which is entirely as it should be. The "everyone gets a participation medal" mentality is so frustratingly reoccuring on these forums.

Also, people request of twow team to make new BGs when SGV shows that it is not really their field of competence. Even if they try, odds are noone will play it as AB and WSG are true and tested. What they could do is copy-paste EotS and change the scenery to not be in space (lol).

Tell me how much honor recieves losing side for 0-3 warsong

The "everyone gets a participation medal" mentality is so frustratingly reoccuring on these forums.

Frustrating are elitists curious why barely any1 plays their system
People need motivation, people need a candy
The "uh oh embrace yourself we should win at any cost try hardeeeer" does not work here bro, we are playing mmo game not participating World War 2

[Bjorn88]

Frustrating are elitists curious why barely any1 plays their system
People need motivation, people need a candy
The "uh oh embrace yourself we should win at any cost try hardeeeer" does not work here bro, we are playing mmo game not participating World War 2

Yawn, the problem is not the points reward. Twow team has already buffed the honor gain from AB and WSG.

For context I've lost the majority of WSGs I played vs alliance in the last months on tel'abim, before I finished ranking. Yet I understand better than to demand more honor for losing a game. It's a child's mentality.

The "equal fun for everyone" mentality is what gave twow pvp druids and retridins. If they listen to the enhancement fanclub I bet the next class to break pvp for some unforeseen reason are shamans.

[Nitaya]

People are not upsed because they lost, people upset because they arent rewarded when they lost.
Once pvp remade into "we play bgs for fun and not for gear" the losing factor wont be so severe anymore.

But is there any proper reward, even for winning?

You get honor and marks. Marks worth additional honor and repu.
Repu rewards needs a lot of pvp on given BGs and they are not that good. (Except for AV)
Honor by itself is worthless unless you are ranking.
You have to grind and rank up week by week and dedicate more and more time.

If you win you get more honor, but you are competing with your own faction in PvP ranking. You get more honor but the other guy who you need to outperform will get more honor as well. You are not (necessarly) ahead of the race by winning

While on the other side, you get less but all of them gets less.
Assume you start PvP at lvl 60, you won't see a proper reward in the 1st few weeks.

Compare it with PvE, you go to MC / ZG / AQ20 / Kara / Ony as fresh lvl 60. You spend around 6 hours for that activity / week.
In 2-3 weeks you will be in decent gear, afterwards you can shift to BWL / ES / AQ40.

So all in all:
Casually raiding -> You will be rewarded with gear.
Casually Pvping -> No reward, also if you are on the losing side, no accomplishment.

[Marafado]

(the topic not about TelAbim but twow pvp situation in general)

The pvp server is completely dead

Main server
- 0 blood ring (day)
- 0 av
- 0 ab
- 1 warsong game (29 min que)

Post your ideas why pvp scene became abysmol and suggestions how devs can revive it.

the pve server used to have a nice pop for BGs before the china and fresh pvp crew hype.
29 min que for wsg is a surprise with the number of china farmers pve server has,i remember 4, 5 months ago farmers doing over 1.2k honor to be in top 10. this ppl was doing 24/7 working shifts to rank13 and parking toons till the sell.

No one buying r14 toons anymore?

heheh maybe there are to many for sell and no1 buying, the market is hard to understand ;p

ps: ehhh...nerf palas, buff shamies...nerf druids, ballance this and that :) , twow need more devs ;p and some other popular sugestions in forum.

[Twinking]

The pvp server is completely dead

My guild left this server due to low population. We did world pvp and it was quite fun (Much more fun than random bg).
For me he is already completely dead

Main server
- 0 blood ring (day)
- 0 av
- 0 ab
- 1 warsong game (29 min que)

What's the point of playing BG on the main server?
Whoever reaches 60 for the first time and launches the first BG with HonorSpy, will see 800k - 1.200k honor from top players (honor farmers who farm afk).
Most people don't have enough time to even get to r13...

Post your ideas why pvp scene became abysmol and suggestions how devs can revive it.

Perhaps we are asking too much from a small devs team. Implement interesting mechanics on the 2004 client.

[Ataika]

What's the point of playing BG on the main server?

People had that point 5 months ago,
Each time i logged in there was an AV up even deep night or several ab/wsg games dependinig on the day.
Now av is dead ouside of its day, AB only alive during its day (max 2 games simultaneously).
The pvp scene surely dwindles and i seek for a solution to revitalize it.

Perhaps we are asking too much from a small devs team. Implement interesting mechanics on the 2004 client.

We are talking about a smol team that made sunnyglade walley.
While the bg itself is quite boring the factsshows twow team's capability to make completely new battlegrounds with unique mechanics (when they want)