Balance PvP: Nerf Paladins and Feral Druids

[Neltharion]

Right now, as it is, the two classes that completely break the PvP experience, at least on Tel'abim, are paladins and feral druid.

Scaling down Bear Form armor coefficient would be nice, as it is, a bear can hold 3/4 players for a whole minute without problems
And for the love of god, frenzied regeneration does not work in PvP, but a nerf on the heals would be good enough

Paladins. Ah, paladins. Nerf Holy Strike, please. Everyone has been asking for that nerf for MONTHS. It's just not fun being 1tapped by a 4k holy strike.
Paladin bubble immunity + the unnecessary crazy amount of damage that paladins can do with zero effort and low gear dependency make paladins a literal broken class.

Devs, please, hear your community.

(buff enhancement shaman, thanks)

[Zvyrhol]

I think all these issues will be adressed in patch 1.17.2 with class changes.

[Ataika]

just wait 3 years for that patch

[Neltharion]

I think all these issues will be adressed in patch 1.17.2 with class changes.

Sincerely I hope so
Otherwise if class changes won't solve these problems that'd be a sufficient reason for me to quit for good
It really seems that devs are playing paladins and druids lol

[Twinking]

Please devs weaken the most powerful classes in the game:
paladins and druids (mages, priests, warlocks), and give my shaman even more instant damage, otherwise I quit for good...

[Turboman]

Piss off, Neltharion, bear tanking is the only reason why i play on this server, because its actually good in here. Throw your lightning bolts at someone else if you're struggling with druids so much.

Oh and by the way, how do you even manage to struggle against druids as a shaman?? Your class is literally a direct counter to druids wtf.

[Jammyzz]

What's hilarious is that shamans absolutely clap druids in PvP... Purge omen of clarity and mark of the wild then bam 13k Armor useless against shocks and lightning bolts.. Purge the hots... Don't attack when they frenzy regen as no rage heals nothing.... Sounds like a L2P issue from op to me.

[Neltharion]

I understand you guys have never played a shaman but come on you're kinda ridiculous at this point
First of all it's not me saying this, it's literally everyone except druid players that is asking for this nerf
Of course druid players want their op class to stay that way
It may work in PvE but in PvP druid is absolutely broken and needs a nerf as fast as possible, as any melee class (I play Enhancement) you're destined to lose
You literally have no hope to kill a druid 1v1, no class, except paladins unironically, due to their Holy Strike free armor pen attack, can outdps frenzied regen and the amount of armor bears have

Also, dispell hots? Wow what a genius you are! That would solve everything!
Oh wait, no, bears still are unkillable and deal more damage than an arms warrior.

[Atreidon]

Feral druid and Ret pally are no doubt both top tier classes in pvp

But classic wow pvp was never balanced to begin with. Since 2004 Frostmages with half a braincell absolutely dumpster every single melee and people accepted it eventually as "the classic wow balance"

Just because there are new topdogs doesn't necessarily mean they need a nerf.

In Paladins case there is a bug that was present in classic but no big deal which is way more devastating on turtlewow with holy strike that is responsible for a lot of the salt. That definitely needs fixing. (Holy strike & SOC benefits twice from berserking & vengeance)

As for unkillable bear druids, Frenzied regeneration does stop if the druid has to switch out of bear form. A simple slow is all you need to completely neuter his frenzied regeneration. Forcing him to either not get healing at all or just get kited out.

Way too many people are simply unable to adapt to a different set of tools available on turtle.

I understand you guys have never played a shaman but come on you're kinda ridiculous at this point
First of all it's not me saying this, it's literally everyone except druid players that is asking for this nerf
Of course druid players want their op class to stay that way
It may work in PvE but in PvP druid is absolutely broken and needs a nerf as fast as possible, as any melee class (I play Enhancement) you're destined to lose
You literally have no hope to kill a druid 1v1, no class, except paladins unironically, due to their Holy Strike free armor pen attack, can outdps frenzied regen and the amount of armor bears have

Also, dispell hots? Wow what a genius you are! That would solve everything!
Oh wait, no, bears still are unkillable and deal more damage than an arms warrior.

Shamans are in a similar boat to paladins when it comes to 1v1ing feral druids. Equip a shield, use watershield to retain your mana and the druid can not kill you in bear form unless he vastly outgears you. And you can prevent him from healing much better than he can deny you

[Neltharion]

Feral druid and Ret pally are no doubt both top tier classes in pvp

But classic wow pvp was never balanced to begin with. Since 2004 Frostmages with half a braincell absolutely dumpster every single melee and people accepted it eventually as "the classic wow balance"

Just because there are new topdogs doesn't necessarily mean they need a nerf.

In Paladins case there is a bug that was present in classic but no big deal which is way more devastating on turtlewow with holy strike that is responsible for a lot of the salt. That definitely needs fixing. (Holy strike & SOC benefits twice from berserking & vengeance)

As for unkillable bear druids, Frenzied regeneration does stop if the druid has to switch out of bear form. A simple slow is all you need to completely neuter his frenzied regeneration. Forcing him to either not get healing at all or just get kited out.

Way too many people are simply unable to adapt to a different set of tools available on turtle.

I'm tired of the "you have to kite" excuse
Because players shouldn't be treated as raid bosses, it's not normal that a class has the tankiness of a prot warrior and the damage of an arms warrior at the same time
It's just super unbalanced and, since this is not vanilla wow but vanilla+, it needs a nerf, regardless of the druid players above crying.

[Neltharion]

Feral druid and Ret pally are no doubt both top tier classes in pvp

But classic wow pvp was never balanced to begin with. Since 2004 Frostmages with half a braincell absolutely dumpster every single melee and people accepted it eventually as "the classic wow balance"

Just because there are new topdogs doesn't necessarily mean they need a nerf.

In Paladins case there is a bug that was present in classic but no big deal which is way more devastating on turtlewow with holy strike that is responsible for a lot of the salt. That definitely needs fixing. (Holy strike & SOC benefits twice from berserking & vengeance)

As for unkillable bear druids, Frenzied regeneration does stop if the druid has to switch out of bear form. A simple slow is all you need to completely neuter his frenzied regeneration. Forcing him to either not get healing at all or just get kited out.

Way too many people are simply unable to adapt to a different set of tools available on turtle.

I understand you guys have never played a shaman but come on you're kinda ridiculous at this point
First of all it's not me saying this, it's literally everyone except druid players that is asking for this nerf
Of course druid players want their op class to stay that way
It may work in PvE but in PvP druid is absolutely broken and needs a nerf as fast as possible, as any melee class (I play Enhancement) you're destined to lose
You literally have no hope to kill a druid 1v1, no class, except paladins unironically, due to their Holy Strike free armor pen attack, can outdps frenzied regen and the amount of armor bears have

Also, dispell hots? Wow what a genius you are! That would solve everything!
Oh wait, no, bears still are unkillable and deal more damage than an arms warrior.

Shamans are in a similar boat to paladins when it comes to 1v1ing feral druids. Equip a shield, use watershield to retain your mana and the druid can not kill you in bear form unless he vastly outgears you. And you can prevent him from healing much better than he can deny you

Equipping a shield and going 1h would mean dealing absolutely no damage, druid can just root or cc as they please, refull their life and oneshot me as a cat
I mean, I appreciate you giving tips like these, I really do, but there's simply no way a melee class can 1v1 a druid right now
No matter how hard you think about it, feral druids are completely retarded right now

[Grizb37]

On my shaman I eat ferals for breakfast. Literally just 2-3 shot them with CL and shock. If they frenzied regen what I normally do is frost shock and run then they have to shift out to remove the slow removing the frenzied regen

"But but they have feral charge!" - yeah which has a dead zone, learn to kite in the dead zone with frost shock, he'll eventually get fed up and shift out the slow and bham no frenzied regen" it really is just simple

Imake sure to dispel at the start to remove his omen of clarity which is where most of their burst dmg comes from.

Not to mention you can get "flash bombs" for cheap and use against druid in form. 10 second fear that can't be broken. Essentially a 10sec stun...

If they try heal I earth shock it, ferals have a 3.5 sec cast healing touch, the only other heal is regrowth and rejuv which can be dispelled rendering them useless.

I also have a druid in good gear, you get destroyed by warlocks and shadow priests and shamans and good geared rets. You might be able to beat a lock or shadow priest if you out gear them and get some lucky shred crits.

But the problem is enhance sucks balls in PvP. Doesn't mean ferals and paladins need nerfs just because your class / spec isn't very good against them.

[Neltharion]

On my shaman I eat ferals for breakfast. Literally just 2-3 shot them with CL and shock. If they frenzied regen what I normally do is frost shock and run then they have to shift out to remove the slow removing the frenzied regen

"But but they have feral charge!" - yeah which has a dead zone, learn to kite in the dead zone with frost shock, he'll eventually get fed up and shift out the slow and bham no frenzied regen" it really is just simple

Imake sure to dispel at the start to remove his omen of clarity which is where most of their burst dmg comes from.

Not to mention you can get "flash bombs" for cheap and use against druid in form. 10 second fear that can't be broken. Essentially a 10sec stun...

If they try heal I earth shock it, ferals have a 3.5 sec cast healing touch, the only other heal is regrowth and rejuv which can be dispelled rendering them useless.

I also have a druid in good gear, you get destroyed by warlocks and shadow priests and shamans and good geared rets. You might be able to beat a lock or shadow priest if you out gear them and get some lucky shred crits.

But the problem is enhance sucks balls in PvP. Doesn't mean ferals and paladins need nerfs just because your class / spec isn't very good against them.

Buddy, I'm talking about melees
Please read
Flash bombs are a different matter, I'm talking about feral situation regardless of them
Flash Bombs could even be removed, I don't care I just want a balanced PvP experience

[Ataika]

Anyone who calls druid S tier is a special sunny boy

[Grizb37]

On my shaman I eat ferals for breakfast. Literally just 2-3 shot them with CL and shock. If they frenzied regen what I normally do is frost shock and run then they have to shift out to remove the slow removing the frenzied regen

"But but they have feral charge!" - yeah which has a dead zone, learn to kite in the dead zone with frost shock, he'll eventually get fed up and shift out the slow and bham no frenzied regen" it really is just simple

Imake sure to dispel at the start to remove his omen of clarity which is where most of their burst dmg comes from.

Not to mention you can get "flash bombs" for cheap and use against druid in form. 10 second fear that can't be broken. Essentially a 10sec stun...

If they try heal I earth shock it, ferals have a 3.5 sec cast healing touch, the only other heal is regrowth and rejuv which can be dispelled rendering them useless.

I also have a druid in good gear, you get destroyed by warlocks and shadow priests and shamans and good geared rets. You might be able to beat a lock or shadow priest if you out gear them and get some lucky shred crits.

But the problem is enhance sucks balls in PvP. Doesn't mean ferals and paladins need nerfs just because your class / spec isn't very good against them.

Buddy, I'm talking about melees
Please read
Flash bombs are a different matter, I'm talking about feral situation regardless of them
Flash Bombs could even be removed, I don't care I just want a balanced PvP experience

What I'm trying to say is anything can be beaten if you're willing to put enough effort in....

Are you expecting to beat a feral by just auto attacking and waiting for a windfury proc and the occasional shock?

A good warrior can beat a bear, a rogue can beat a bear, they just have to bait them out of bear form then stun lock them dead. Or if the rogue gets opener on cat druid it's bye bye.

This is vanilla pvp. Not every class can be beaten easily by the class you're playing. Eg warrior vs frost mage or shadow priest.... You need to use every trick in the book against these classes

[Griffith961]

Fix the shaman first, even is you disregard the insane chain lightings and windfuries from a full rare enha with 53 2 hander breaking throughmyshiled and my pvp set and full stam enchants 1 shotting me, but the grounding totems that soak several spells and never go down and are spammed all the time plus the interrupt, talk about a broken class, not even close to anything on twow. not even a rogue stunlocking me forever would get me so annoyed

[Anythinggoes]

Paper is fine, nerf rock!

Love: Scissors

Though can agree on paladins doing too much damage for the huge defences they have.

[Holyhorrorr]

Seems more like the threat creator has no clue of his class. If a druid puts on Nature's grasp you just can purge it. I´ve never seen a good shaman being beaten by a druid on t-wow cause shamans can heal better and burst better then a druid. On top of that you can put 4 totems at once on the ground on t-wow yet you cry about a druid being tanky in pvp. Ofc they are tanky, they have no 2k bursts like you do or instant shocks that do 1.2k. If you struggle against druids you should consider to play an other class because that is obviously a skill issue. The other shaman above even told you several ways how to beat druids.

[Drubarrymooer]

How come "I have a hard time fighting x-class" always turns into "nerf x-class"? Genuinely, the suggestions you make would nerf feral into the ground for PVE and PVP. Their sole "tankiness" comes from high armor/high hp. Further, I posit that if you have 4 players vs 1 bear and they can't kill the bear in under a minute, they're probably bad or very undergeared players.

I can't speak to paladins as I just dinged my first one here a few days ago. I can speak from having other geared characters that pally burst dmg is a bit too high to be able to be mitigated well. It probably should be looked at.

[Ragetto]

How come "I have a hard time fighting x-class" always turns into "nerf x-class"?

Paper is fine, nerf rock!
Love: Scissors

You both are correct, no class/spec is unbeatable, but it must also be admitted that some have far more predators than others.

I think it would be good to create, spec by spec, a tier list of other specs - with equivalent gear (from 'nightmare' to 'free kill' - explaining why, of course). And not an absolute tier list, which means nothing.

This would provide a more objective 'rock paper scissors' view, and it could be useful for those looking to improve primarily against certain classes (or just know when to run :) ). And also, if done objectively, we could see that some 'papers' have more 'scissors' and fewer 'rocks' than others.

The feral druid (if well-equipped) is almost an indestructible tank for me, as a hunter, but I imagine it's less cocky against magical damage.

Shadow priest is my absolute nemesis, but I've seen them much less comfortable against warriors/rogues.

I think I'll give it a try on the hunter forum to get things started.

It would also be interesting to create tier lists based on contexts, for example, wPvP, specific BGs, etc. This would help new players depending on what they want to do.

[Akos1896]

I's def read such a chart but it is also a big work. I'm not familiar with PVP and only having big knowledge on shamans so I wouldn't be able to create it but would love reading it.

[Ragetto]

I's def read such a chart but it is also a big work. I'm not familiar with PVP and only having big knowledge on shamans so I wouldn't be able to create it but would love reading it.

I don't think we need complex charts with advanced stats.

A format like the one in this topic could suffice
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12596

The issue was that everything was mixed together, each class was evaluated 'in absolute terms' and probably from the perspective of one particular class (thus not objective at all).

A first step would be to use this format but from the perspective of one specific class/spec (specifying the context and the standard gear level + explanations and comments to justify the power tier list rankings). It's not perfect but it would be more precise and allow for discussion on how to counter specific specs.

[Drubarrymooer]

I don't think we need complex charts with advanced stats.

A format like the one in this topic could suffice
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12596

The problem with that chart is it was made by someone who made the list subjectively as opposed to objectively.

We don't need every class to be able to counter every other class. That's what retail is. There should be class disparity. I used to struggle with hunters, now I don't. Currently, I struggle with shadow priests. That doesn't mean spriest need nerfs.

[Shockoladetwo]

Yes, please nerf paladins and Druids, they are so op... look the kill stats of the top player in that BG... oh wait, that's a shaman *shocked picachu face*

[Gantulga]

I don't think we need complex charts with advanced stats.

A format like the one in this topic could suffice
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12596

The problem with that chart is it was made by someone who made the list subjectively as opposed to objectively.

We don't need every class to be able to counter every other class. That's what retail is. There should be class disparity. I used to struggle with hunters, now I don't. Currently, I struggle with shadow priests. That doesn't mean spriest need nerfs.

There's a difference between original vanilla's counters while you still have a chance, and turtle's counters where what already countered an X class/spec, now does it ten times better, leaving no room for counterplay.
That's just extremely poor game design.

Spriest does need pain spike removed for example because it was an unnecessary twow's addition to an already amazing PvP spec which never needed any buffs whatsoever.

[Nitaya]

Yes, please nerf paladins and Druids, they are so op... look the kill stats of the top player in that BG... oh wait, that's a shaman *shocked picachu face*

Please don't provoke with stats and facts from BG, here we are only discussing feelings and 1v1.

[Twinking]

Right now, as it is, the two classes that completely break the PvP experience, at least on Tel'abim, are paladins and feral druid.

Every time I wonder what other nonsense these “PVP” clowns can come up with...

(buff enhancement shaman, thanks)

(delete enhancement shaman, thanks)

[Geojak]

Meanwhile all casters, namely ele shaman, shadow priest, t3 waelock or mage contnue to dominate every bg including blood ring. But we discuss strawman op paladins.
Yea holy strike burst kinda isi insane and it ignoring armor an issue. But Overally paladins do not win bgs casters do, (unless ins wsg, then it's op druids flag carry beyond broken unstoppable )

[Mackylol]

Meanwhile all casters, namely ele shaman, shadow priest, t3 waelock or mage contnue to dominate every bg including blood ring. But we discuss strawman op paladins.
Yea holy strike burst kinda isi insane and it ignoring armor an issue. But Overally paladins do not win bgs casters do, (unless ins wsg, then it's op druids flag carry beyond broken unstoppable )

+1

[Ataika]

Yes, please nerf paladins and Druids, they are so op... look the kill stats of the top player in that BG... oh wait, that's a shaman *shocked picachu face*

Please don't provoke with stats and facts from BG, here we are only discussing feelings and 1v1.

again the sunny guy is trying to make an argument
i had games with 50-0 hunters, lets nerf them too because they have tons of kills ?

Meanwhile all casters, namely ele shaman, shadow priest, t3 waelock or mage contnue to dominate every bg including blood ring. But we discuss strawman op paladins.
Yea holy strike burst kinda isi insane and it ignoring armor an issue. But Overally paladins do not win bgs casters do, (unless ins wsg, then it's op druids flag carry beyond broken unstoppable )

i like how u slapped "t3" to a warlock
yeah t3 hunters do not dominate doing 700 autoshots to clothers

and surely naxx geared rogue does not tremendous damage, yeah

[Neltharion]

Yes, please nerf paladins and Druids, they are so op... look the kill stats of the top player in that BG... oh wait, that's a shaman *shocked picachu face*

Please don't provoke with stats and facts from BG, here we are only discussing feelings and 1v1.

Out of context screenshot of a premade where I was personally healing him all the time
Put a warrior instead of that shaman and the result will be even worse
Do we need to nerf warriors? No
So that's not really an argument

[Bloodline1x9]

Druids are a completely broken class. Especially for the classic and even stronger for Turtle.
After a hiatus here where I played TBC, I'm back. Everyone there in TBC hates druids. Moreover, all classes are much stronger and have received their opportunities. A warrior is no longer a piece of meat, for example. He got Second Wind and Resielence. He survive well, and also has a Reflect. But the druid is still stronger. Rogue got Shadowstep and CoSH. He is strong, indeed. But still as fragile. Try to kill the druid quickly? No? Each class became much stronger in TBC. And here in classic everyone has very few opportunities to resist control. On the classic, each class has about 5 main buttons. And only the druid has three times more possibilities. Because he hasn't changed so much. He is even stronger here. While everyone is still very weak, limited, fragily but he already has all the possibilities even without CD IMBALANCED RESHIFT DISPEL. In the classic where pvp trinket does not remove all control, but only certain for different classes. When some spend it with a long cd on slow or immobilize, then the druid can remove it as much as he want by changing the form.
And for some reason, admins gave removal of fear (plus AR). Did he lack control or counter control? Little does poly and sap not work on druid? Where are the rock, scissors, paper? It is obvious that the admin is playing a druid. The second admin plays paladin. And they hate warriors.
Warriors are such crap in pvp and they buff druids lol.

viewtopic.php?t=6665

[Steelgrip]

Piss off, Neltharion, bear tanking is the only reason why i play on this server, because its actually good in here. Throw your lightning bolts at someone else if you're struggling with druids so much.

Oh and by the way, how do you even manage to struggle against druids as a shaman?? Your class is literally a direct counter to druids wtf.

I mean I was thinking the same shit :D one of the reasons I stopped playing here was Shamans 1 shotting me when I was in full epics + have nature protection potion on xD xD

Feral is garbage in PvP xD

/played 18 days on Feral - or more like /wasted 18 days :D

[Steelgrip]

Yes, please nerf paladins and Druids, they are so op... look the kill stats of the top player in that BG... oh wait, that's a shaman *shocked picachu face*

Right? :D :D :D Fucking SHamans xD

[Neltharion]

Piss off, Neltharion, bear tanking is the only reason why i play on this server, because its actually good in here. Throw your lightning bolts at someone else if you're struggling with druids so much.

Oh and by the way, how do you even manage to struggle against druids as a shaman?? Your class is literally a direct counter to druids wtf.

I mean I was thinking the same shit :D one of the reasons I stopped playing here was Shamans 1 shotting me when I was in full epics + have nature protection potion on xD xD

Feral is garbage in PvP xD

/played 18 days on Feral - or more like /wasted 18 days :D

Let me correct, horde druids are weaker than alliance druids because since paladins do not give a single fuck about armor they counter them well
Two broken class which one happens to be more broken than the other