Five Year Anniversary & New European Realm!

[Geojak]

They need to work on dwarf shamans and undead paladins. Otherwise it's almost impossible to both have balanced pve and pvp raids where in one they have wf totem plus blessings in the other they don't.

They are creation their own balance nightmare.
Paladins do half the dmg without wf totem and will be a meme and pure healer on the pvp server.add to thar how seemingly ever second pvp server Andy pledged to kill all paladins on sight. The server is surely going to be ruined by hatred.

[Dannyp92]

They need to work on dwarf shamans and undead paladins. Otherwise it's almost impossible to both have balanced pve and pvp raids where in one they have wf totem plus blessings in the other they don't.

They are creation their own balance nightmare.
Paladins do half the dmg without wf totem and will be a meme and pure healer on the pvp server.add to thar how seemingly ever second pvp server Andy pledged to kill all paladins on sight. The server is surely going to be ruined by hatred.

Turtle WoW is supposed to care deeply about the world's lore and immersion, based upon OG WoW and the previous Warcraft RTS games. Therefore, Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans do not make sense in Vanilla-inspired WoW. And in Vanilla, faction identity stands strong. Blizzard introduced class combinations like these later in WoW's lifetime due to retconning of the lore and gameplay concerns. In other words, they opted for gameplay > immersion. Whether they'll prioritize gameplay > immersion on the PvP-server remains to be seen, though.

Shamanism is a unique aspect of Horde culture, which was also emphasized in Warcraft 3, so it doesn't make sense for Dwarves to have it. Blizzard had to introduced Draenei, which used to have friendly relations with the Orcs of Draenor, in order to for Alliance to get Shamans. While the Wildhammer Dwarves have a deep connection to nature, it doesn't mean they have the culture nor practice of the Shamanism of the Orcs.

Paladins are powered by the Light, and the Undead are cursed creatures that are rejected by the Holy Light. While Undead has access to the Priest class, in the lore they're using a twisted version of the Light; in other words they're more akin to Shadow Priests. Blizzard just didn't bother to give neither the Undead nor the Trolls unique spell effects to show that they aren't followers of the Light. Instead, their Priest racials are supposed to reflect it (e.g. Devouring Plague, Touch of Weakness etc.). Priests are simply spiritual leaders of their people (see the class description in-game). Therefore, if a Human/Dwarf Paladin got raised into undeath, they would rather become Death Knights.

[Lukzak]

They need to work on dwarf shamans and undead paladins. Otherwise it's almost impossible to both have balanced pve and pvp raids where in one they have wf totem plus blessings in the other they don't.

They are creation their own balance nightmare.
Paladins do half the dmg without wf totem and will be a meme and pure healer on the pvp server.add to thar how seemingly ever second pvp server Andy pledged to kill all paladins on sight. The server is surely going to be ruined by hatred.

Turtle WoW is supposed to care deeply about the world's lore and immersion, based upon OG WoW and the previous Warcraft RTS games. Therefore, Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans do not make sense in Vanilla-inspired WoW. And in Vanilla, faction identity stands strong. Blizzard introduced class combinations like these later in WoW's lifetime due to retconning of the lore and gameplay concerns. In other words, they opted for gameplay > immersion. Whether they'll prioritize gameplay > immersion on the PvP-server remains to be seen, though.

Shamanism is a unique aspect of Horde culture, which was also emphasized in Warcraft 3, so it doesn't make sense for Dwarves to have it. Blizzard had to introduced Draenei, which used to have friendly relations with the Orcs of Draenor, in order to for Alliance to get Shamans. While the Wildhammer Dwarves have a deep connection to nature, it doesn't mean they have the culture nor practice of the Shamanism of the Orcs.

Paladins are powered by the Light, and the Undead are cursed creatures that are rejected by the Holy Light. While Undead has access to the Priest class, in the lore they're using a twisted version of the Light; in other words they're more akin to Shadow Priests. Blizzard just didn't bother to give neither the Undead nor the Trolls unique spell effects to show that they aren't followers of the Light. Instead, their Priest racials are supposed to reflect it (e.g. Devouring Plague, Touch of Weakness etc.). Priests are simply spiritual leaders of their people (see the class description in-game). Therefore, if a Human/Dwarf Paladin got raised into undeath, they would rather become Death Knights.

Sir zeliek from naxx is an undead paladin, isn't he? So it's not like the lore prevents it. Although he is meant to be such a follower of the light that he is an exception. I guess if we had a ton of undead paladins, it would kind of cheapen how special Sir zeliek is.

Or even if we just say he was raised as a death knight, he still uses light abilities. I bet if he had managed to break free with the forsaken, he would have turned back to the path of light fully while still being undead.

[Harkus]

They need to work on dwarf shamans and undead paladins. Otherwise it's almost impossible to both have balanced pve and pvp raids where in one they have wf totem plus blessings in the other they don't.

They are creation their own balance nightmare.
Paladins do half the dmg without wf totem and will be a meme and pure healer on the pvp server.add to thar how seemingly ever second pvp server Andy pledged to kill all paladins on sight. The server is surely going to be ruined by hatred.

Hell no, you want PvP, you get the unbalanced mess that it always was and always will be. The Alliance should never get shamans and the Horde should never get paladins, it just does not make any sense lorewise as stated by Dannyp92. But who knows, maybe Turtle will stop caring about the lore like they stopped caring about fresh and PvP servers and you will get your nonsensical paladins and shamans? That is exactly one of the reasons I did not want a PvP server though, as the QQing will force this shit on the RPvE players...
Also I thought paladins were broken, OP and needed nerfing now?

Sir zeliek from naxx is an undead paladin, isn't he? So it's not like the lore prevents it. Although he is meant to be such a follower of the light that he is an exception. I guess if we had a ton of undead paladins, it would kind of cheapen how special Sir zeliek is.

Or even if we just say he was raised as a death knight, he still uses light abilities. I bet if he had managed to break free with the forsaken, he would have turned back to the path of light fully, while still being undead.

The Lich King is forcing Sir Zeliek to use the Light as a means to torture him, twisting his precious Light by forcing him to use it against good people. The Holy Light also burns the undead, so it probably causes Sir Zeliek immense pain as well. Arthas is a sick bastard. Sir Zeliek is powered by the Lich King, which prevents him from dying while channeling the Holy Light. If an ordinary undead adventurer tried this, he would just be committing suicide. It is like mixing water and fire, the two cannot coexist.

[Geojak]

Faction idetitfy being based in not have shaman or Palas respectively is so 2005. There is zero value in faction idetitfy. It just enables hating the other side. Crossfaction is the future anyway.

[Dannyp92]

Hell no, you want PvP, you get the unbalanced mess that it always was and always will be. The Alliance should never get shamans and the Horde should never get paladins, it just does not make any sense lorewise as stated by Dannyp92. But who knows, maybe Turtle will stop caring about the lore like they stopped caring about fresh and PvP servers and you will get your nonsensical paladins and shamans? That is exactly one of the reasons I did not want a PvP server though, as the QQing will force this shit on the RPvE players...
Also I thought paladins were broken, OP and needed nerfing now?

Actually, one thing Turtle could theoretically do is to have separate balancing between the PvE and the PvP servers. PvE folks tend to care more about the lore and performance in PvE but don't really care much for PvP. PvPers tend to care about gameplay more than immersion, and they care about balance in PvP (and PvE to a lesser degree). So in that sense both audiences could be appeased, but again, it requires more work and isn't necessarily ideal. It's very hard to please everyone without displeasing someone.

[Lukzak]

They need to work on dwarf shamans and undead paladins. Otherwise it's almost impossible to both have balanced pve and pvp raids where in one they have wf totem plus blessings in the other they don't.

They are creation their own balance nightmare.
Paladins do half the dmg without wf totem and will be a meme and pure healer on the pvp server.add to thar how seemingly ever second pvp server Andy pledged to kill all paladins on sight. The server is surely going to be ruined by hatred.

Hell no, you want PvP, you get the unbalanced mess that it always was and always will be. The Alliance should never get shamans and the Horde should never get paladins, it just does not make any sense lorewise as stated by Dannyp92. But who knows, maybe Turtle will stop caring about the lore like they stopped caring about fresh and PvP servers and you will get your nonsensical paladins and shamans? That is exactly one of the reasons I did not want a PvP server though, as the QQing will force this shit on the RPvE players...
Also I thought paladins were broken, OP and needed nerfing now?

Sir zeliek from naxx is an undead paladin, isn't he? So it's not like the lore prevents it. Although he is meant to be such a follower of the light that he is an exception. I guess if we had a ton of undead paladins, it would kind of cheapen how special Sir zeliek is.

Or even if we just say he was raised as a death knight, he still uses light abilities. I bet if he had managed to break free with the forsaken, he would have turned back to the path of light fully, while still being undead.

The Lich King is forcing Sir Zeliek to use the Light as a means to torture him, twisting his precious Light by forcing him to use it against good people. The Holy Light also burns the undead, so it probably causes Sir Zeliek immense pain as well. Arthas is a sick bastard. Sir Zeliek is powered by the Lich King, which prevents him from dying while channeling the Holy Light. If an ordinary undead adventurer tried this, he would just be committing suicide. It is like mixing water and fire, the two cannot coexist.

But if he is twisting the light, it means that there is still light within him to twist, no? Maybe it would hurt him to use the light, but hurting yourself for power hasn't exactly been an obstacle for people who are devoted to something. Take warlocks, for example. They life tap, they burn themselves with hellfire in the name of power. An undead who is devoted to helping people despite the pain of the light doesn't seem like such an insane idea.

[Sergarey]

What they would have to do is let the horde party with the alliance, so the pve issue would be the same , so you wouldn't have to spend hours to get the world bufos to raid

[Bandyc]

retail wow is better if you want to play a blended version of wow where you can be anything and do anything with perfect balance lmao.
dont let these players ruin the good ol wow.

[Javdett]

Are you guys opening a separate division here/on discord for the new realm?

[Klerih]

• Hardcore Challenge will not be available on launch.

Hardcore Challenge must be available on launch or be unavailable ever.
My guess is that his delay is due to the processing of his mechanics, more specifically the need to make a pve mode in the pvp zones for hardcore characters. But I think it’s disrespectful to the time of the players who will play from the start without being able to choose hardcore mode.

[Xerilin]

• Hardcore Challenge will not be available on launch.

Hardcore Challenge must be available on launch or be unavailable ever.
My guess is that his delay is due to the processing of his mechanics, more specifically the need to make a pve mode in the pvp zones for hardcore characters. But I think it’s disrespectful to the time of the players who will play from the start without being able to choose hardcore mode.

Not offering hc on a pvp realm is not disrespectful, it's just common sense.

[Klerih]

Not offering hc on a pvp realm is not disrespectful, it's just common sense.

On the one hand, I understand that they want to enable it later, as a tool to keep the server active, but the ordinary player why does he need it later? If it would have been from the launch, but invest time in ordinary characters, and then more in hardcore, which will run in PVE mode on the PVP server... I don't understand this. I would be happy to start on a new server in hardcore mode if it was immediately, and if not immediately, then it would not be later.
Please, share your opinion.

[Xerilin]

Not offering hc on a pvp realm is not disrespectful, it's just common sense.

On the one hand, I understand that they want to enable it later, as a tool to keep the server active, but the ordinary player why does he need it later? If it would have been from the launch, but invest time in ordinary characters, and then more in hardcore, which will run in PVE mode on the PVP server... I don't understand this. I would be happy to start on a new server in hardcore mode if it was immediately, and if not immediately, then it would not be later.
Please, share your opinion.

I don't think they want to (or should) offer hc later. As I read it, they just don't want to rule it out.

[Klerih]

I don't think they want to (or should) offer hc later. As I read it, they just don't want to rule it out.

Maybe. I hope it’s not added later. But hardcore mode is a key element to keep the audience from just abandoning it.

[Xudo]

There will be PvE server with hardcore option. Why would you ever want all problems of interactions between HC and regular players in PvP server?

[Klerih]

There will be PvE server with hardcore option. Why would you ever want all problems of interactions between HC and regular players in PvP server?

I don't want hardcore mode on the pvp server. That’s the thing.

[Gladeshadow]

While I like PvP and played exclusively on PvP servers before the fresh challenge that is hardcore, I've seen that nearly all PvP servers tend to go 90%+ one faction after not too long. However, turtle has been good to me and has had much more longevity than any official server so far, so I'll give it a try and hope it's different.

I do have a question: Will we be able to lock xp on our characters? Frankly, the end game raid geared 60 pvp is boring and imbalanced for anyone without the gear. Twinks of any level are much more fair than a fresh 60 competing with a Naxx geared 60. To that end, I'd want to lock my characters at certain _9 levels. Will this be implemented on the server as it is on the PvE one?

[Beard]

I'm confused on the new server. Why are they doing it? Isn't this just going to split the population? One server will be worth playing where the other wont? What am I missing? Finally have a nice healthy population on the one server and they're going to ruin it by splitting everyone up.

[Munra]

-thanks for the anniversary gift! 5 fashion coins <3

May I ask why some people got in their gift 5 fashion coins and others like my self and many more don't? Doesnt seems really fair, also is there a way to ask for the coins?? Thanks!

[Xudo]

I'm confused on the new server. Why are they doing it? Isn't this just going to split the population? One server will be worth playing where the other wont? What am I missing? Finally have a nice healthy population on the one server and they're going to ruin it by splitting everyone up.

New PvP server surely won't split the population. Because pvp on existing turtle server is dead or close to.
There might be a lot of PvP enjoyers, but they just watch and wait for realm to open.

PvE and PvP server enjoyers are totally different people.

[Sylveria]

I'm confused on the new server. Why are they doing it? Isn't this just going to split the population? One server will be worth playing where the other wont? What am I missing? Finally have a nice healthy population on the one server and they're going to ruin it by splitting everyone up.

New PvP server surely won't split the population. Because pvp on existing turtle server is dead or close to.
There might be a lot of PvP enjoyers, but they just watch and wait for realm to open.

PvE and PvP server enjoyers are totally different people.

Exactly - PvE- and PvP-Players have very different mindsets and I think it's for the better of everyone, if those with the same mindset are a bit closer to each other cause they're on their respective realm. I even think, that a smaller community might benefit the overall behaviour on the realms. Can't tell how many times people were hating each other on the world channel or other chats due to different view points, especially when it comes to PvP, faction, race.

I'd even say, that if the population on the PvE-Realm would decrease further, that Open-World-RP might return more frequently. :)

[Harkus]

Actually, one thing Turtle could theoretically do is to have separate balancing between the PvE and the PvP servers. PvE folks tend to care more about the lore and performance in PvE but don't really care much for PvP. PvPers tend to care about gameplay more than immersion, and they care about balance in PvP (and PvE to a lesser degree). So in that sense both audiences could be appeased, but again, it requires more work and isn't necessarily ideal. It's very hard to please everyone without displeasing someone.

I mean yes they could do that but it seems like a lot of work and it would be very confusing as both Turtles would be different but still have the same name. It just seems like the first step for just giving everybody pallies and shammies, so no thanks.

But if he is twisting the light, it means that there is still light within him to twist, no? Maybe it would hurt him to use the light, but hurting yourself for power hasn't exactly been an obstacle for people who are devoted to something. Take warlocks, for example. They life tap, they burn themselves with hellfire in the name of power. An undead who is devoted to helping people despite the pain of the light doesn't seem like such an insane idea.

It is not the same as spirit tap (which only uses part of the user's spirit), undead using the light would just instantly die, like I said, water and fire. The only reason Sir Zeliek does not is again because Arthas is using his immense power (he is stupidly powerful, possibly the most powerful entity on Azeroth) to keep him alive. There is no way an ordinary undead adventurer has access to this kind of power. Unless you want to make undead players dumb Med'an fanfiction OC level powerful, undead paladins should never happen.

[Lukzak]

Actually, one thing Turtle could theoretically do is to have separate balancing between the PvE and the PvP servers. PvE folks tend to care more about the lore and performance in PvE but don't really care much for PvP. PvPers tend to care about gameplay more than immersion, and they care about balance in PvP (and PvE to a lesser degree). So in that sense both audiences could be appeased, but again, it requires more work and isn't necessarily ideal. It's very hard to please everyone without displeasing someone.

I mean yes they could do that but it seems like a lot of work and it would be very confusing as both Turtles would be different but still have the same name. It just seems like the first step for just giving everybody pallies and shammies, so no thanks.

But if he is twisting the light, it means that there is still light within him to twist, no? Maybe it would hurt him to use the light, but hurting yourself for power hasn't exactly been an obstacle for people who are devoted to something. Take warlocks, for example. They life tap, they burn themselves with hellfire in the name of power. An undead who is devoted to helping people despite the pain of the light doesn't seem like such an insane idea.

It is not the same as spirit tap (which only uses part of the user's spirit), undead using the light would just instantly die, like I said, water and fire. The only reason Sir Zeliek does not is again because Arthas is using his immense power (he is stupidly powerful, possibly the most powerful entity on Azeroth) to keep him alive. There is no way an ordinary undead adventurer has access to this kind of power. Unless you want to make undead players dumb Med'an fanfiction OC level powerful, undead paladins should never happen.

Where are you getting the information that it should instantly kill the undead? I couldn't find anything that said that. I did manage to find some dev QA articles from around WotLK where they mention that undead can channel the light and also be healed by it, but it is extremely painful. Like being burned. The light is like fire to an undead.

You also mentioned that life tap only uses a part of the user's soul. But what about the hellfire ability of warlocks that I mentioned? That definitely burns warlocks and takes their health, but they still do it without being some ultra rare OP characters.

[Dannyp92]

Actually, one thing Turtle could theoretically do is to have separate balancing between the PvE and the PvP servers. PvE folks tend to care more about the lore and performance in PvE but don't really care much for PvP. PvPers tend to care about gameplay more than immersion, and they care about balance in PvP (and PvE to a lesser degree). So in that sense both audiences could be appeased, but again, it requires more work and isn't necessarily ideal. It's very hard to please everyone without displeasing someone.

I mean yes they could do that but it seems like a lot of work and it would be very confusing as both Turtles would be different but still have the same name. It just seems like the first step for just giving everybody pallies and shammies, so no thanks.

But if he is twisting the light, it means that there is still light within him to twist, no? Maybe it would hurt him to use the light, but hurting yourself for power hasn't exactly been an obstacle for people who are devoted to something. Take warlocks, for example. They life tap, they burn themselves with hellfire in the name of power. An undead who is devoted to helping people despite the pain of the light doesn't seem like such an insane idea.

It is not the same as spirit tap (which only uses part of the user's spirit), undead using the light would just instantly die, like I said, water and fire. The only reason Sir Zeliek does not is again because Arthas is using his immense power (he is stupidly powerful, possibly the most powerful entity on Azeroth) to keep him alive. There is no way an ordinary undead adventurer has access to this kind of power. Unless you want to make undead players dumb Med'an fanfiction OC level powerful, undead paladins should never happen.

Where are you getting the information that it should instantly kill the undead? I couldn't find anything that said that. I did manage to find some dev QA articles from around WotLK where they mention that undead can channel the light and also be healed by it, but it is extremely painful. Like being burned. The light is like fire to an undead.

You also mentioned that life tap only uses a part of the user's soul. But what about the hellfire ability of warlocks that I mentioned? That definitely burns warlocks and takes their health, but they still do it without being some ultra rare OP characters.

Remember that Turtle builds upon the lore from Warcraft 3 and Vanilla WoW, so whatever comes after that isn't necessarily applicable. Blizzard did all kinds of weird retcons of the lore in the expansions, mostly in favor of gameplay and to appease certain players, but at the detriment of the original lore. In the OG lore, Undead are cursed and rejected by the Light, so Paladins don't make sense, they would because Death Knights instead which is the twisted version of the Paladin. The Undead Priests we have in-game are actually Shadow Priests, but Blizzard didn't bother to make them or Trolls look different, but they tried to show it by giving them more Shadow-themed unique-spells that Alliance priests don't have access to. Death Knight as a class wasn't fully complete during Vanilla, so we only get pseudo-death knights through Baron Rivendare etc., and in Naxx they use Paladin-spells instead as Paladin is a reflection of a Death Knight; but if they had more time I'm sure they would've given them Shadow-esque spells instead.

[Harkus]

Where are you getting the information that it should instantly kill the undead? I couldn't find anything that said that. I did manage to find some dev QA articles from around WotLK where they mention that undead can channel the light and also be healed by it, but it is extremely painful. Like being burned. The light is like fire to an undead.

You also mentioned that life tap only uses a part of the user's soul. But what about the hellfire ability of warlocks that I mentioned? That definitely burns warlocks and takes their health, but they still do it without being some ultra rare OP characters.

Lore in both Warcraft III and Vanilla continuously has the Holy Light as the antithesis of undeath. In Warcraft III, paladins using the Holy Light can only heal humanoid units with it and can only damage undead units with it. It ruins undead units. In Vanilla, Exorcism can only be used on undead (and demons). The Ashbringer turns undead into ash because it is a Holy Light artefact. Every single interaction between the Holy Light and undead results in the undead being greatly harmed if not outright destroyed. The only exception being Zeliek and as mentioned he is a special case. This is not even getting into the aspect of Forsaken priests being abandoned by the Light and hence abandoning their old religion en masse and becoming shadow priests of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. All undead priests are shadow priests in the lore. The Light does not discriminate between good and evil undead. If you are undead or demonic, too bad, the Light hates you. So even if playable undead could call upon the Light (which they cannot), it would be devastating to them and akin to suicide. And no, anything after Vanilla is not canon in Turtle.

Warlocks use some of their life force and can sustain (minor) injuries by recklessly using their demonic magic, but it is not the same at all. Demonic magic is not a divine force, it is simply dangerous and powerful magic, it has no will of its own. It can use spirit as a resource but it is not required. It is used as fuel. Undeath is not fuel for Holy magic. And the Light does not like undeath.

[Sylveria]

Where are you getting the information that it should instantly kill the undead? I couldn't find anything that said that. I did manage to find some dev QA articles from around WotLK where they mention that undead can channel the light and also be healed by it, but it is extremely painful. Like being burned. The light is like fire to an undead.

You also mentioned that life tap only uses a part of the user's soul. But what about the hellfire ability of warlocks that I mentioned? That definitely burns warlocks and takes their health, but they still do it without being some ultra rare OP characters.

Lore in both Warcraft III and Vanilla continuously has the Holy Light as the antithesis of undeath. In Warcraft III, paladins using the Holy Light can only heal humanoid units with it and can only damage undead units with it. It ruins undead units. In Vanilla, Exorcism can only be used on undead (and demons). The Ashbringer turns undead into ash because it is a Holy Light artefact. Every single interaction between the Holy Light and undead results in the undead being greatly harmed if not outright destroyed. The only exception being Zeliek and as mentioned he is a special case. This is not even getting into the aspect of Forsaken priests being abandoned by the Light and hence abandoning their old religion en masse and becoming shadow priests of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. All undead priests are shadow priests in the lore. The Light does not discriminate between good and evil undead. If you are undead or demonic, too bad, the Light hates you. So even if playable undead could call upon the Light (which they cannot), it would be devastating to them and akin to suicide. And no, anything after Vanilla is not canon in Turtle.

Warlocks use some of their life force and can sustain (minor) injuries by recklessly using their demonic magic, but it is not the same at all. Demonic magic is not a divine force, it is simply dangerous and powerful magic, it has no will of its own. It can use spirit as a resource but it is not required. It is used as fuel. Undeath is not fuel for Holy magic. And the Light does not like undeath.

Finally someone who's telling the true facts regarding the Light and Undeath! God i'm so tired of repeating myself over and over again when people are asking for Undead Paladins. :D
YES! Lorewise all Undead Priests are Shadow Priests. OBVIOUSLY y'cant do that gameplaywise. But lorewise it should stay that was as it was. So: No Undead Paladins. Heck! Undead players even were considered "Undead" in ancient times and could be attacked with exorcism etc. (an in turn were immune to polymorph and fear). They were changed to Humanoid solely for balancing purposes.

[Lukzak]

Remember that Turtle builds upon the lore from Warcraft 3 and Vanilla WoW, so whatever comes after that isn't necessarily applicable. Blizzard did all kinds of weird retcons of the lore in the expansions, mostly in favor of gameplay and to appease certain players, but at the detriment of the original lore. In the OG lore, Undead are cursed and rejected by the Light, so Paladins don't make sense, they would because Death Knights instead which is the twisted version of the Paladin. The Undead Priests we have in-game are actually Shadow Priests, but Blizzard didn't bother to make them or Trolls look different, but they tried to show it by giving them more Shadow-themed unique-spells that Alliance priests don't have access to. Death Knight as a class wasn't fully complete during Vanilla, so we only get pseudo-death knights through Baron Rivendare etc., and in Naxx they use Paladin-spells instead as Paladin is a reflection of a Death Knight; but if they had more time I'm sure they would've given them Shadow-esque spells instead.

Oh yeah, I understand that TWoW is in an alternate timeline. I just don't know if more modern lore can be used when it's not mentioned at all in our canon and doesn't contradict anything else. As far as I understand it, we only know from canon lore that light harms undead, not that it instantly kills them. One of the main points of Forsaken is their willpower. I still don't see why an undead that was a paladin in the past life cannot carry on that conviction after breaking free of the lich king.

I haven't spent much time in Naxx, but I understand that only one of the horsemen have light spells. So, clearly the light can still be channeled by an undead (though in this case, he's forced to use it). This is not just the devs not implementing shadow spells like with priests. He is canonically an undead paladin.

An undead harming himself to help his allies and smite his enemies sounds like the most paladin thing ever, given that paladins can actually kill themselves to protect others. Or we could use the inspiration of the blood elves, who dominated the light and bent it to their will.

An undead paladin who bends the light to his will while hurting himself to use the power sounds INCREDIBLY similar to the mindset of warlocks.

[Sylveria]

Oh yeah, I understand that TWoW is in an alternate timeline. I just don't know if more modern lore can be used when it's not mentioned at all in our canon and doesn't contradict anything else. As far as I understand it, we only know from canon lore that light harms undead, not that it instantly kills them. One of the main points of Forsaken is their willpower. I still don't see why an undead that was a paladin in the past life cannot carry on that conviction after breaking free of the lich king.

Still: Even if it's not an instant kill: You yourself admitted the fact, that the holy light's harmful to undead. IF Undead Paladins were to be allowed, then you would have to implement a mechanic, that hurts all undead players, whenever they use an ability, that uses Holy Magic.


Regarding Sir Zeliek of the Four Horsemen..
I wanna throw in a thought of mine..
WHY is ARTHAS considered UNDEAD? Did he die in Northrend and has been resurrected? Or is he just a human without a soul? If so: Maybe Sir Zeliek ist also STILL a human, but as I've read, his body has been forced to obey Kel'thuzad. Did Sir Zeliek die and has been resurrected into Undeath? Or is he physically still 'alive' and not undead?

[Lukzak]

Oh yeah, I understand that TWoW is in an alternate timeline. I just don't know if more modern lore can be used when it's not mentioned at all in our canon and doesn't contradict anything else. As far as I understand it, we only know from canon lore that light harms undead, not that it instantly kills them. One of the main points of Forsaken is their willpower. I still don't see why an undead that was a paladin in the past life cannot carry on that conviction after breaking free of the lich king.

Still: Even if it's not an instant kill: You yourself admitted the fact, that the holy light's harmful to undead. IF Undead Paladins were to be allowed, then you would have to implement a mechanic, that hurts all undead players, whenever they use an ability, that uses Holy Magic.


Regarding Sir Zeliek of the Four Horsemen..
I wanna throw in a thought of mine..
WHY is ARTHAS considered UNDEAD? Did he die in Northrend and has been resurrected? Or is he just a human without a soul? If so: Maybe Sir Zeliek ist also STILL a human, but as I've read, his body has been forced to obey Kel'thuzad. Did Sir Zeliek die and has been resurrected into Undeath? Or is he physically still 'alive' and not undead?

True. Although I would argue that since light is able to heal undead while just causing extreme pain, we can say that the undead paladins have learned to adapt to their condition. They are able to protect themselves while channeling the light, which would just cause them the extreme pain instead of actual damage. Like a sort of shield. Just like how warlocks can be shielded to not be hurt by their own hellfire. This could even help make undead priests using holy magic more lore friendly, rather than just saying it's supposed to be shadow but blizzard didn't put it in the game.

Sir Zeliek is definitely an undead, at least according to wowpedia. Do we know if holy spells do more damage to them during the horsemen fight?

[Harkus]

Oh yeah, I understand that TWoW is in an alternate timeline. I just don't know if more modern lore can be used when it's not mentioned at all in our canon and doesn't contradict anything else. As far as I understand it, we only know from canon lore that light harms undead, not that it instantly kills them. One of the main points of Forsaken is their willpower. I still don't see why an undead that was a paladin in the past life cannot carry on that conviction after breaking free of the lich king.

I haven't spent much time in Naxx, but I understand that only one of the horsemen have light spells. So, clearly the light can still be channeled by an undead (though in this case, he's forced to use it). This is not just the devs not implementing shadow spells like with priests. He is canonically an undead paladin.

An undead harming himself to help his allies and smite his enemies sounds like the most paladin thing ever, given that paladins can actually kill themselves to protect others. Or we could use the inspiration of the blood elves, who dominated the light and bent it to their will.

An undead paladin who bends the light to his will while hurting himself to use the power sounds INCREDIBLY similar to the mindset of warlocks.

Forsaken cannot use the Light, no matter how good or how powerful their will is. Even the pious Leonid Barthalomew cannot use the Light. Why would an entire religious organisation cease to exist if it simply took some concentration and some pain to use the Light? Why would every single undead abandon it and cease using it? Just because ONE example exists where a very powerful undead, powered by another extremely powerful being uses the Light does not make it a case for ye average undead adventurer who was simply a mindless zombie before being freed from the Lich King to be a paladin...

The Holy Light devastates the undead, good or bad alike. TBC blood elves are not canon in Turtle. Did you even read my post about the differences between the Light and demonic magic? It is not similar in the slightest.

True. Although I would argue that since light is able to heal undead while just causing extreme pain, we can say that the undead paladins have learned to adapt to their condition. They are able to protect themselves while channeling the light, which would just cause them the extreme pain instead of actual damage. Like a sort of shield. Just like how warlocks can be shielded to not be hurt by their own hellfire. This could even help make undead priests using holy magic more lore friendly, rather than just saying it's supposed to be shadow but blizzard didn't put it in the game.

Sir Zeliek is definitely an undead, at least according to wowpedia. Do we know if holy spells do more damage to them during the horsemen fight?

You cannot use gameplay like this in a lore debate. Otherwise all undead players would actually be alive because they are classified as ''humanoid'' and not ''undead''. Plus, holy resistance was never properly implemented in Vanilla. Also all undead priests being shadow is definitely in the game, just do a few levels as an undead priest and you will see.

[Sylveria]

You cannot use gameplay like this in a lore debate. Otherwise all undead players would actually be alive because they are classified as ''humanoid'' and not ''undead''. Plus, holy resistance was never properly implemented in Vanilla. Also all undead priests being shadow is definitely in the game, just do a few levels as an undead priest and you will see.

Holy Resistence existed though in Alpha WoW and has been swaped Out with arcane resistence. Propably because there barely was any holy DMG in the Game at all?
Bringing it Back may be a possibility.
Other than that: absolutely agree.

[Harkus]

Regarding Sir Zeliek of the Four Horsemen..
I wanna throw in a thought of mine..
WHY is ARTHAS considered UNDEAD? Did he die in Northrend and has been resurrected? Or is he just a human without a soul? If so: Maybe Sir Zeliek ist also STILL a human, but as I've read, his body has been forced to obey Kel'thuzad. Did Sir Zeliek die and has been resurrected into Undeath? Or is he physically still 'alive' and not undead?

Nice to see another lore enjoyer :D
Sir Zeliek barely has any backstory. He could still be alive. He is classified as undead in the game however. Honestly, it would not surprise me if Blizzard just made him an undead holy user just to add some variety to Naxx in terms of damage types. At this point it was just before TBC and Blizz really started to lean into the gameplay > lore aspect.

It is not really stated what happened to Arthas in Northrend after the human campaign in RoC, nor what happened when he became one with Ner'zhul and became the Lich King. But for sure he is not ''alive'' anymore in the traditional sense I would say. But who knows? Maybe Turtle will answer this at some point if they involve the Lich King in any capacity in a new story?

[Lukzak]

Forsaken cannot use the Light, no matter how good or how powerful their will is. Even the pious Leonid Barthalomew cannot use the Light. Why would an entire religious organisation cease to exist if it simply took some concentration and some pain to use the Light? Why would every single undead abandon it and cease using it? Just because ONE example exists where a very powerful undead, powered by another extremely powerful being uses the Light does not make it a case for ye average undead adventurer who was simply a mindless zombie before being freed from the Lich King to be a paladin...

The Holy Light devastates the undead, good or bad alike. TBC blood elves are not canon in Turtle. Did you even read my post about the differences between the Light and demonic magic? It is not similar in the slightest.

I missed your reply to my post, sorry. I didn't intend to ignore it. I know that TBC blood elves are not canon in here. I meant it as inspiration for a continuation on turtle wow's lore for bending the light to your will.

Regarding warcraft 3, are you able to heal enemy units? Of course using holy light as an offensive ability against undead wouldn't heal them if you're fighting them. Why would the paladin choose to heal the enemies attacking him?

You cannot use gameplay like this in a lore debate. Otherwise all undead players would actually be alive because they are classified as ''humanoid'' and not ''undead''. Plus, holy resistance was never properly implemented in Vanilla. Also all undead priests being shadow is definitely in the game, just do a few levels as an undead priest and you will see.

I meant the fact that they are using holy spells in the game, not that they don't prefer shadow magic. I don't accept the argument that we should stick to the lore in some areas (undead being destoryed by light in warcraft), but ignore it in other areas (undead players are able to use holy light spells).

We are in an alternative lore with turtle wow and they have the opportunity to continue the lore to make it match the gameplay if they wanted to. I'm just spit balling ideas here for possible avenues of achieving new-lore and gameplay parity.

[Harkus]

Forsaken cannot use the Light, no matter how good or how powerful their will is. Even the pious Leonid Barthalomew cannot use the Light. Why would an entire religious organisation cease to exist if it simply took some concentration and some pain to use the Light? Why would every single undead abandon it and cease using it? Just because ONE example exists where a very powerful undead, powered by another extremely powerful being uses the Light does not make it a case for ye average undead adventurer who was simply a mindless zombie before being freed from the Lich King to be a paladin...

The Holy Light devastates the undead, good or bad alike. TBC blood elves are not canon in Turtle. Did you even read my post about the differences between the Light and demonic magic? It is not similar in the slightest.

I missed your reply to my post, sorry. I didn't intend to ignore it. I know that TBC blood elves are not canon in here. I meant it as inspiration for a continuation on turtle wow's lore for bending the light to your will.

Regarding warcraft 3, are you able to heal enemy units? Of course using holy light as an offensive ability against undead wouldn't heal them if you're fighting them. Why would the paladin choose to heal the enemies attacking him?

You cannot use gameplay like this in a lore debate. Otherwise all undead players would actually be alive because they are classified as ''humanoid'' and not ''undead''. Plus, holy resistance was never properly implemented in Vanilla. Also all undead priests being shadow is definitely in the game, just do a few levels as an undead priest and you will see.

I meant the fact that they are using holy spells in the game, not that they don't prefer shadow magic. I don't accept the argument that we should stick to the lore in some areas (undead being destoryed by light in warcraft), but ignore it in other areas (undead players are able to use holy light spells).

We are in an alternative lore with turtle wow and they have the opportunity to continue the lore to make it match the gameplay if they wanted to. I'm just spit balling ideas here for possible avenues of achieving new-lore and gameplay parity.

Do not worry, I am not intending to be hostile, I am simply passionate about this because watching Blizzard slowly but surely destroy the lore of Warcraft was awful

In Warcraft III you could only heal living friendly units with Holy Light and only damage undead enemy units. Obviously you could not heal enemy living units because that is just bad game design in giant RTS battles where misclicking is easy. But the point is you cannot heal allied undead units and the only enemies you can damage with it are undead.

I agree that Turtle should do something new with the lore, but more in the sense that dumb WoW retcons like Horde blood elves/paladins and heroes like Kael, Vashj and Illidan just randomly going crazy and 100% evil should be avoided.