PvP server is a bad idea, HC server is a good one

[Wafflecrusher]

I'm making this post in response to the two or three Pro-PVP spammers who won't stop flooding the forum. Although the responses to those posts, and responses to discord rabbling is reflective of the general attitude, I felt an independent post was necessary.

The EU population is not high enough to support a PVP server. I do not think the new patch will attract enough players to then justify a PVP server. I've attached population statistics below.

https://turtle-wow.org/#/population-graph

I do not think the Pro-PVP players realize that the PVP server will only have world PVP for about ~6 months, at which point it'll only be one faction and world PVP will be gone. Then the PVP server will melt away, while still demanding resources which could be focused on the main realm. It's likely once the population shrinks enough, people with 60s on that realm will begin to demand transfers, requiring resources which could be used elsewhere. I also don't think the Turtle team should be opening and closing servers regularly (something people will start calling for in a few months when the faction imbalance gets out of hand). I do not think a PVP server will solve any existing problems, indeed it will potentially create many more.

I think a HC only server is something that I think would benefit everyone. No longer would players get frustrated when trying to group with someone who's tagged a mob, only to get the "sorry, this is a HC player" notification in red. HC players would get their own AH, and could trade freely. Additionally, it's a good way to mitigate future queues in the event there is population growth.

I do not see any long term benefit to a PVP server, indeed many problems could arise from it. I think a PVP server could be considered if the population doubles or triples, but now is not the time for a PVP server. A HC server on the other hand would solve many problems that currently exist. The philosophy of Turtle is slow and steady, I think the focus should be on solving long-term problems.

[Fresharugula]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

[Wafflecrusher]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

Source?

[Crunshy1512]

eu2when

[Xerilin]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

Source?

Torta on discord: https://discord.com/channels/4666224558 ... 9427055677

[Harkus]

Yep, PvP servers are unsustainable, only useful for quick consumption and then dropping them, demanding F R E S H, everything Turtle is not about...
Not to mention the people whining about PvP class balance (even though PvP is not balanced to begin with) and force these changes on the silent RPvE majority :(
I really hope there will not be a new EU server, it is superfluous and bad for the community.

[Xerilin]

Yep, PvP servers are unsustainable, only useful for quick consumption and then dropping them, demanding F R E S H, everything Turtle is not about...
Not to mention the people whining about PvP class balance (even though PvP is not balanced to begin with) and force these changes on the silent RPvE majority :(
I really hope there will not be a new EU server, it is superfluous and bad for the community.

Why? Most people with the mindset you describe would move there and thus not play with you anymore.

[Geojak]

How many hc chars are online? 1000-2000? From a own server perspective that's, rly not enough to warrant it's own server. But look it at it from the other side. 2000 people less on eu1 is a significant relieve.

I don't think any private server offers pure hc servers yet. Only blizzard and they fill. Imo, it's a niche that def will be worth making a server for. It's rly not very hc playing on a server with 8k+ other softcore chars running around literally everywhere.

Its way more epic if everyone is hc and fewer peolle around.

Additionaly we solve the issues of hc spamm chat since they will be able to use the ah and trade and use LFt Tool.

Literally everyone wins, and 1k+ Players is way enough because eu1 was best when there were 1000-2000 players around 1.5 years ago.

Now for Chinese servers it's even a compete different story. Surely there are more than 5k hc players spread around the 3 pve servers they have.

Opening hc eu and hc China is the next logical step

[Wafflecrusher]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

Source?

Torta on discord: https://discord.com/channels/4666224558 ... 9427055677

Thanks for providing a source. I did not see this.

I stand by my statement. Turtle wow does not have the population for a PvP server, the server will wilt quickly, and will draw many resources. A PvP server solves no issues, only creates them. If the choice is between a HC and PVP server (as they mentioned) then to me HC is clearly the correct choice even if the population is small.

In truth I don't think there should be a second EU server, but it appears that cat is out of the bag.

[Mikeyhong]

HC is one of the most support of Rpve server,if PvP Sever have HC,I’m sure that’s the real disaster of pve server.PvP server is a really nice ideal,but have to keep the pve statement. One pve Sever is more about the group and mobs,more like challenging with ourselves.and PvP also have this,but more challenging have also with another person,so is totally different,we need change and we need PvP server too.ty

[Geojak]

Regarding a pvp server, let's discuss first how twow started.

As a niche Server for people that
1. Don't like pvp servers and World pvp
2. Like leveling, originally even with a 0.5x XP rate
3. Want a forever server that never dies to faction imbalance
4. Dislike F R E S H mentality
5. Twow went with rp-pve and reduced XP rate knowing these will result in lower player interest. Twow was never about catering to the fresh pvp enjoying majority.

Imo, fresh pvp is the anti thesis to turtle wow.
Now if they do open one, fine, but the should rly open a hc server first

[Mikeyhong]

Regarding a pvp server, let's discuss first how twow started.

As a niche Server for people that
1. Don't like pvp servers and World pvp
2. Like leveling, originally even with a 0.5x XP rate
3. Want a forever server that never dies to faction imbalance
4. Dislike F R E S H mentality
5. Twow went with rp-pve and reduced XP rate knowing these will result in lower player interest. Twow was never about catering to the fresh pvp enjoying majority.

Imo, fresh pvp is the anti thesis to turtle wow.
Now if they do open one, fine, but the should rly open a hc server first

As your said,our server is starting from less people,it’s true.I also support we have a HC server,but as you said too ,EU don’t have the request of people to support a only HC server. Now the people like Pve they have their place,the people wanna HC also have altough is not that perfect.finally the people wanna PvP,where should they go?maybe as a start is less people,but how do you defined it won’t get stronger and being better in the future?like now EU1 for pve and HC. TY

[Mynamewastaken]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

What's the difference? HC doesn't interact with normal players anyway, but fight for resources

[Logarr]

Honestly at this point, HC and Normal players should be able to form groups of 5 together. Questing resources are tight and forming parties would make this go faster and get people more spread out into new zones.

[Mac]

PvP Hardcore server please.

[Sylveria]

Another Problem that would come with a PvP-Realm (unfortunately [in my opinion] they opened that door with the CN-PvP-Realm), that they obligate 'emselves to PvP-Balancing (which [again imo] would cause further stress upon the Dev-Team). Before you might say: PvP is just a niche, so no need to balance for PvP-purposes ASAP since it's first and foremost a PvE-Realm. But with a PvP-Realm, they propably need to act more quickly now to PvP-Balancing.

[Ingameacc12345]

PvP-Balancing.

Which, as we all know for years now, is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve.

I sincerely hope Turtle remains a strictly PvE server, I don't want the team to spend (waste) their limited time on a PvP server which is as far from the original server proposition as possible anyway.

[Charanko]

Doesnt need to be perfectly balanced never will be…as long as its not totaly broken like paladins atm it will be all right


If it was up to me i would open hc and pvp … and since vanila was made for 2-4 k people max … all 3 servers would be healty and smooth
Because lets be real 10k online is a shitshow

[Bigsmerf]

Doesnt need to be perfectly balanced never will be…as long as its not totaly broken like paladins atm it will be all right


If it was up to me i would open hc and pvp … and since vanila was made for 2-4 k people max … all 3 servers would be healty and smooth
Because lets be real 10k online is a shitshow

Pretty reasonable opinion, but there's a couple things wrong here.

I think there's a lot of things that would make adding a PvP server a bad idea. There's already a community of PvPers here (albeit a small and pretty niche one) that would likely be pretty separated if there's no crossfaction bgs. Now, a hardcore server on the other hand is definitely fine. They're already their own community that has nothing to do with the main one. 1-2k players are still 1-2k players you don't have to compete with in ques, for mobs, ores, quest objectives, chests, and so on and so forth.

[Cc515k2]

If there are no Chinese players. The total online capacity of the Turtle Server English server is limited to a maximum of 2000-3000 people. It is completely unnecessary to open a new English server. People often overlook the essence of the problem, as it is Chinese players who have brought the prosperity of Turtle and Warcraft. Without them, Turtle Warcraft is just a niche game played by a very few people.

[Charanko]

Doesnt need to be perfectly balanced never will be…as long as its not totaly broken like paladins atm it will be all right


If it was up to me i would open hc and pvp … and since vanila was made for 2-4 k people max … all 3 servers would be healty and smooth
Because lets be real 10k online is a shitshow

Pretty reasonable opinion, but there's a couple things wrong here.

I think there's a lot of things that would make adding a PvP server a bad idea. There's already a community of PvPers here (albeit a small and pretty niche one) that would likely be pretty separated if there's no crossfaction bgs. Now, a hardcore server on the other hand is definitely fine. They're already their own community that has nothing to do with the main one. 1-2k players are still 1-2k players you don't have to compete with in ques, for mobs, ores, quest objectives, chests, and so on and so forth.

Cross server bgs/ arenas out of the question? …after some time ofc …when pvp players cath up on gear
Would solve your fears…

[Wafflecrusher]

A PvP server opens up the door to a myriad of issues, and solves none. It's an interesting experiment in strategic thought to put out the fires that you can see arising from a PvP server, but I suggest we avoid the burning forest in the first place.

[Geojak]

Doesnt need to be perfectly balanced never will be…as long as its not totaly broken like paladins atm it will be all right


If it was up to me i would open hc and pvp … and since vanila was made for 2-4 k people max … all 3 servers would be healty and smooth
Because lets be real 10k online is a shitshow

Pretty reasonable opinion, but there's a couple things wrong here.

I think there's a lot of things that would make adding a PvP server a bad idea. There's already a community of PvPers here (albeit a small and pretty niche one) that would likely be pretty separated if there's no crossfaction bgs. Now, a hardcore server on the other hand is definitely fine. They're already their own community that has nothing to do with the main one. 1-2k players are still 1-2k players you don't have to compete with in ques, for mobs, ores, quest objectives, chests, and so on and so forth.

Cross server bgs/ arenas out of the question? …after some time ofc …when pvp players cath up on gear
Would solve your fears…

I think a dev (either torta or bowser on reddit) said no transfers and no crossfactuon bgs back then when eu2 was half confirmed before they stepped back again to reconsider hc servers.

[Xudo]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

That is strange, assuming that turtle wow started as low population server and hit 1k online only in January 2022, after 4 years of operations.

What will actually be different in PvP server?

• Leveling will be spoiled by ganking people by high level in low level zones. It could lead to sporadic faction vs faction fights here and there, but it works like this only if both teams have active guilds.
• PvP server also makes it harder to collect stuff in blasted lands or tea in winterspring. People won't whine about "not enough mobs". They will be busy fighting gankers there. Guilds will probably do organized preparation and farm it in raids/parties. They would kill anyone who interfere.
• Securing tag on worldbosses will not be guarantee for raid to get loot from it. Since everyone will be flagged, enemy raid could attack during fight and wipe raid with wb tag.

Battlegrounds will be the same. Ranking will be the same.

[Charanko]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

That is strange, assuming that turtle wow started as low population server and hit 1k online only in January 2022, after 4 years of operations.

What will actually be different in PvP server?

• Leveling will be spoiled by ganking people by high level in low level zones. It could lead to sporadic faction vs faction fights here and there, but it works like this only if both teams have active guilds.
• PvP server also makes it harder to collect stuff in blasted lands or tea in winterspring. People won't whine about "not enough mobs". They will be busy fighting gankers there. Guilds will probably do organized preparation and farm it in raids/parties. They would kill anyone who interfere.
• Securing tag on worldbosses will not be guarantee for raid to get loot from it. Since everyone will be flagged, enemy raid could attack during fight and wipe raid with wb tag.

Battlegrounds will be the same. Ranking will be the same.

Indeed resources were made to be fought over

[Geojak]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

That is strange, assuming that turtle wow started as low population server and hit 1k online only in January 2022, after 4 years of operations.

What will actually be different in PvP server?

• Leveling will be spoiled by ganking people by high level in low level zones. It could lead to sporadic faction vs faction fights here and there, but it works like this only if both teams have active guilds.
• PvP server also makes it harder to collect stuff in blasted lands or tea in winterspring. People won't whine about "not enough mobs". They will be busy fighting gankers there. Guilds will probably do organized preparation and farm it in raids/parties. They would kill anyone who interfere.
• Securing tag on worldbosses will not be guarantee for raid to get loot from it. Since everyone will be flagged, enemy raid could attack during fight and wipe raid with wb tag.

Battlegrounds will be the same. Ranking will be the same.

Indeed resources were made to be fought over

Introduce ffa then.

[Charanko]

That is strange, assuming that turtle wow started as low population server and hit 1k online only in January 2022, after 4 years of operations.

What will actually be different in PvP server?

• Leveling will be spoiled by ganking people by high level in low level zones. It could lead to sporadic faction vs faction fights here and there, but it works like this only if both teams have active guilds.
• PvP server also makes it harder to collect stuff in blasted lands or tea in winterspring. People won't whine about "not enough mobs". They will be busy fighting gankers there. Guilds will probably do organized preparation and farm it in raids/parties. They would kill anyone who interfere.
• Securing tag on worldbosses will not be guarantee for raid to get loot from it. Since everyone will be flagged, enemy raid could attack during fight and wipe raid with wb tag.

Battlegrounds will be the same. Ranking will be the same.

Indeed resources were made to be fought over

Introduce ffa then.

im down for that also on pvp server ofc... maybe ffa glyph... or maybe entire zones/islands for ffa mode... that are more resoure loot rich

endless possibilities with a little imaginaton :)

[Geojak]

Global ffa except for in major cities

[Fresharugula]

Global ffa except for in major cities

Thinking this will ever be implemented on a turtle server is just delusional

[Cogei003]

如果你们支持PVE服务器，那应该60级后强制关闭PVP 永不开启。不然大号杀小号算什么事？

[Geojak]

Global ffa except for in major cities

Thinking this will ever be implemented on a turtle server is just delusional

Peole would have said the same to people demaing a pvp fresh server for 4 years and look, here we are discussing it

[Charanko]

as i said it would have to be a ffa zone or a criminal/outlaw glyph... then you would have bounties on your head by both factions and would be banned from faction cities...so it would require more neutral outposts that would accmodate the criminals
it could be 30% exp bonus like warmode is now :)
its a stretch and a lot of work ...but thats the most realistic thing to ffa you could get
and the majority of people would not use the glyph...but it sure would be fun to have on an alt x)

[Xudo]

it could be 30% exp bonus like warmode is now :)

Warmode now is a noob trap. If ffa is going to be introduced, then it should be better.
First of all, it should be useful on 60 lvl.
May be it should grant higher amount of resources for being target for everyone? More herbs/ores/quest items in blasted lands, silithus and winterspring.
It should not be accessible for everyone easily. Like it is now for warmode. May be it should be reward from bloodsail rep grind. At least revered.

[Bigsmerf]

it could be 30% exp bonus like warmode is now :)

Warmode now is a noob trap. If ffa is going to be introduced, then it should be better.
First of all, it should be useful on 60 lvl.
May be it should grant higher amount of resources for being target for everyone? More herbs/ores/quest items in blasted lands, silithus and winterspring.
It should not be accessible for everyone easily. Like it is now for warmode. May be it should be reward from bloodsail rep grind. At least revered.

As someone who used warmode originally for the 30% XP, and later came to like WPvP (Okay I mean ganking) I can definitely confirm that most people don't use it for its intended purpose. Hell, I still have it on at 60 for the extra quest gold. Really makes a difference when you're poor.

[Kremmen]

Mods have already said there aren’t enough active HC players to warrant their own realm

Wut. I started a new character a few weeks ago and the majority of players in the starting zone were hardcore which made completing quests a total headache. I've said it before and I'll say it again; normal and hardcore players are playing totally different games while simultaneously having to share the same gameworld. Having a proportion of the playerbase that you can't interact with running around is totally incongruent with the way WoW encourages players to form impromptu groups to overcome challenges they can't do alone. Either allow HC players to group up with anyone within 5 levels of themselves or sequester them off onto their own server.

If there are no Chinese players. The total online capacity of the Turtle Server English server is limited to a maximum of 2000-3000 people. It is completely unnecessary to open a new English server. People often overlook the essence of the problem, as it is Chinese players who have brought the prosperity of Turtle and Warcraft. Without them, Turtle Warcraft is just a niche game played by a very few people.

Get over yourself.