Everyone can be a TANK,Very urgent

[Balake]

Nope. Because when you choose your class you pick the one you enjoy the most, not thinking about healing, tanking or dpsing. The class having some kind of way of tanking or not is a problem that comes later. You may love the way warlocks are in WOW but then you realize there are no tanks queueing and you wouldn't mind tanking, yet you simply can't.

I disagree. I think everyone who gets into wow knows about the trinity of roles: Tanks, healers and damage. "I want to go druid so I can be a bear and protect my allies", "I want to go priest to heal people and inspire them". It's impossible to split your wanted role from your wanted class since these are so interconnected unless you're in some other game where every class can do any role, but WOW is not that.

-People who want to tank but their class can't tank are such a weird case in my mind. If someone wanted to tank from the beginning why are they a mage that's contradictory. The character creation screen tells you what things your class is capable of doing.

[Netheramir]

I'm ret and I would love to tank 5 man's but no TAUNT. Gives paladins a taunt they don't have to spec into and you'll see more tanks? At least I know I would def tank even if Holy

[Shamma]

I'm ret and I would love to tank 5 man's but no TAUNT. Gives paladins a taunt they don't have to spec into and you'll see more tanks? At least I know I would def tank even if Holy

Do not be ridiculous! U do not need TAUNT to tank until you get to Sunken Temple. And by that time you have enough g to respec/buy the brainwashing device and have taunt.

[Shamma]

You can give every class the ability to tank. You can remove threat entirely. You can tear the game apart and build it into something completely different from scratch. But no matter what you do, you are not going to improve the pool of potential tank players unless people quit acting like absolute shitheads to their fellow players or telling their last 3 tanks "ur shit and you should kill urself" only to turn around and then whine that they can't find a tank for their 4th dungeon.

This is objectively false.
Imagine 10% of players want to tank.
If the server has 100 players, and 10% want to tank, that is 10 tanks.

If you limit 7 of those 10 with class restrictions, the pool of potential tanks has been effectively limited to 3.
Now you have 7 hunters wishing they could tank, and 7 groups tankless.

This is a prime example of a person playing WoW by logic only he can understand (his wiseness Redmagejoe spoke about in his previous post).

[Shamma]

This is objectively false.
Imagine 10% of players want to tank.
If the server has 100 players, and 10% want to tank, that is 10 tanks.

If you limit 7 of those 10 with class restrictions, the pool of potential tanks has been effectively limited to 3.
Now you have 7 hunters wishing they could tank, and 7 groups tankless.

Um what? Those 10% of players who want to tank have already rolled a class that can tank. If they didn't roll a warrior/druid/arguably pally & sham then they don't REALLY want to tank.

In a similar vein, 40% of players want to heal but only 20% of them can heal cause the rest are pure dps classes? I really don't understand this logic.

And this a prime example of a person, who actually understands how WoW plays, and his utter inability to comprehend said logic.

[Xudo]

Guys, I really like to play warrior tank and I know my job well. But sometimes I want to play mage and I feel lack of tanks.
I don't really want to go tanking myself as a mage, but some button to help my current tank would be great.

Right now keeping threat model of the pack is the tank job and he is forced to compete with all DPS for threat. Sharing this responsibility will make things better. And this sharing should not interfere with DPS role.
I mean, DPS can help tank now by just not doing damage. But they don't stop, aren't they? Because they have competition between themselves too. And "punishment" for not doing CC, interrupts, breaking CC and attacking wrong target is not very high in low level dungeons.
If we add more DPS spells which help to care about threat model of the pack, then things will get easier for less skillful tanks.
Skillful tanks playing DPS classes will help them to do the job.

[Balake]

And this a prime example of a person, who actually understands how WoW plays, and his utter inability to comprehend said logic.

I don't understand if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me

[Redmagejoe]

I don't know why I'm stepping into this conversation again, since I felt I said what needed to be said already (treat your fellow players, especially your tanks better), but Xudo raised a good point.

Someone said classes should have abilities that "help the tank". Several classes already HAVE those tools, they just choose not to use them, because they're being played by players who have never tanked or don't understand/empathize with the tank. I don't think I have ever seen a Hunter use Disengage before I played mine, I've seen Priests who don't use Fade, I'm sure Rogues aren't using Feint, and there's plenty of others. If a situation arises where they feel they have to use these skills, they either don't know they have the ability, or they'll immediately jump to the conclusion "it's the tank's fault, I shouldn't have to press this button, so I'm not going to" even if they're still trying to compete for top spot on a DPS chart only they care about.

I hate to break it to all you Fire Mage / Rogue / Enhancement Shaman / whatever players, but literally no one cares about your DPS but you when you post DPSmeter spam in party chat after every pull. Maybe the other person parsing. You can train for raid DPS benchmarking in a RAID. Classes don't need more tools to "help the tank", what they need is players who understand that going into a dungeon means you are now part of a 5 person team, not some solo hero.

I can't vouch for every tank, but when I get into a group, I'm immediately trying to act in a friendly and cooperative pseudo-leadership position. This doesn't mean being bossy or verbose, and in fact 90% of pulls in dungeons with average-geared and competent people, we don't even have to talk because everyone's on the same wavelength. But I'm relying on everyone thinking that they are one of five working together, and I count on my healer and my 3 DPS players as much as I do on my own ability. The healer should be focused on healing the tank while counting on the tank to keep him alive and hold threat so that he isn't wasting mana healing squishy DPS. The DPS shouldn't be so obsessed with competing with one another, but should be doing as much damage as they can while also being aware of threat and counting on the tank to do the tanking job while also cooperating with the tank on threat management. Without going in a circle, the summary is the healer counts on both the 3 DPS and the tank, the tank counts on the healer and the 3 DPS, and the 3 DPS count on the tank and the healer. Everyone must do their job and depend on everyone else to do their job, and assist each other in doing their respective jobs to be a cohesive team.

It's not even about "lol guess I'll just auto" or something dismissive I can already predict being posted as a reply. Literally just stop attacking for like, 1 or 2 seconds. You know what I do when I overaggro on my DPS alt, despite trying my best to focus down the tank's target (unless there's marks, in which case I'm obviously relying on the tank to have marked appropriately to his threat plan)? I stop attacking and move and stand on the tank until he peels it off me, then we go back to a normal fight. If I'm Hunter, I disengage. If I'm Priest, I Fade. If I'm Rogue, I Feint. It's not difficult.

[Ishilu]

I hate to break it to all you Fire Mage / Rogue / Enhancement Shaman / whatever players, but literally no one cares about your DPS but you when you post DPSmeter spam in party chat after every pull. Maybe the other person parsing. You can train for raid DPS benchmarking in a RAID. Classes don't need more tools to "help the tank", what they need is players who understand that going into a dungeon means you are now part of a 5 person team, not some solo hero.

Exactly. I'd like to add to all retadins, enhancers fury wars etc:
You have all necessary tools for tanking or healing 5-man dungeons. You might want to hold on to some specialized gear for these occasions, that's what the bank is for. There's no need to respecc. You're free to choose to reduce your class to "only dps", but you have to accept that if you do so, you're part of the problem.

When I choose to hop onto one of my tank characters, I often handpick my party by using /who and whispering to people. In these cases, I normally try to avoid hybrid classes who refuse to take support roles and reduce loot competition for myself. For example, why should I tank with my warrior for a group of retadins and fury/arms guys who will roll on my stuff after I've done all the work?

[Glavorli]

I hate to break it to all you Fire Mage / Rogue / Enhancement Shaman / whatever players, but literally no one cares about your DPS but you when you post DPSmeter spam in party chat after every pull. Maybe the other person parsing. You can train for raid DPS benchmarking in a RAID. Classes don't need more tools to "help the tank", what they need is players who understand that going into a dungeon means you are now part of a 5 person team, not some solo hero.

Exactly. I'd like to add to all retadins, enhancers fury wars etc:
You have all necessary tools for tanking or healing 5-man dungeons. You might want to hold on to some specialized gear for these occasions, that's what the bank is for. There's no need to respecc. You're free to choose to reduce your class to "only dps", but you have to accept that if you do so, you're part of the problem.

When I choose to hop onto one of my tank characters, I often handpick my party by using /who and whispering to people. In these cases, I normally try to avoid hybrid classes who refuse to take support roles and reduce loot competition for myself. For example, why should I tank with my warrior for a group of retadins and fury/arms guys who will roll on my stuff after I've done all the work?

I dont know if thats good.

Im a tank main. I dont have a problem to invite other fury's or hybrids, simply because I have a boomkin too.
And its not like I as a tank am doing all the work. Thats not true. DPS is also part of the job, and I
appreciate a good DPS, someone who does his job the way hes supposed to, maybe even brings some
extras in the form of consumables etc, just like I do (you will never catch me doing a dungeon without
my oil of immolation!). I appreciate that. I also dont look at other players as competition, but rather as
potential friends - if youre funny, my man you can do 0 DPS and ninja all loot Ill still tank for you .
But you gotta make me laugh.

And when im on my Boomy, I expect you guys to invite me the same way I invite you all when im on my tank.
Its a give and take. And so far my Boomy has always been invited.

[Shamma]

I hate to break it to all you Fire Mage / Rogue / Enhancement Shaman / whatever players, but literally no one cares about your DPS but you when you post DPSmeter spam in party chat after every pull. Maybe the other person parsing. You can train for raid DPS benchmarking in a RAID. Classes don't need more tools to "help the tank", what they need is players who understand that going into a dungeon means you are now part of a 5 person team, not some solo hero.

Exactly. I'd like to add to all retadins, enhancers fury wars etc:
You have all necessary tools for tanking or healing 5-man dungeons. You might want to hold on to some specialized gear for these occasions, that's what the bank is for. There's no need to respecc. You're free to choose to reduce your class to "only dps", but you have to accept that if you do so, you're part of the problem.

When I choose to hop onto one of my tank characters, I often handpick my party by using /who and whispering to people. In these cases, I normally try to avoid hybrid classes who refuse to take support roles and reduce loot competition for myself. For example, why should I tank with my warrior for a group of retadins and fury/arms guys who will roll on my stuff after I've done all the work?

My kind of man! Word up, brother! Use the shortage of tanks to your advantage. Hand pick your grps. Envy us tanks for being able to do this, accept the responsibility and reap the rewards!

[Brolaf]

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved by just adding dual spec similar to WOTLK. That would give players the confidence that they could, at a minimum, enjoy questing in their DPS spec but step up to a tank role as needed to complete dungeons.

[Redmagejoe]

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved by just adding dual spec similar to WOTLK. That would give players the confidence that they could, at a minimum, enjoy questing in their DPS spec but step up to a tank role as needed to complete dungeons.

Again, the issue isn't the spec. Warriors don't need to be Prot to tank 5-mans, and Druids don't need to be deep Feral to tank 5-mans. It's not a gameplay issue, it's a psychological/sociological issue. People just don't want to tank for very valid reasons.

In other news, to the point of trying to ENCOURAGE our tanks and healers, I just did a dungeon with a guy who was completely new to the game and the class, who I whispered asking to heal. He was questing in Redridge and was upfront about being new at things. So I explained to him very clearly and succinctly what was expected of him and what he needed to do. He spoke very little throughout the run, and there were only one or two things he needed some advice on, but at the end of the run, he did his job well and the entire party thanked him and praised him for good healing. I believe he'll go on to be great at healing dungeons here on out as long as rude people don't shit on him and beat the desire to heal out of him.

Shout out to Mcgrill, the level 19 Priest who did a damn fine job healing Deadmines yesterday.

[Shamma]

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved by just adding dual spec similar to WOTLK. That would give players the confidence that they could, at a minimum, enjoy questing in their DPS spec but step up to a tank role as needed to complete dungeons.

It IS already in the game. It is called Goblin Brainwashing device.

[Xudo]

Someone said classes should have abilities that "help the tank". Several classes already HAVE those tools, they just choose not to use them, because they're being played by players who have never tanked or don't understand/empathize with the tank. I don't think I have ever seen a Hunter use Disengage before I played mine, I've seen Priests who don't use Fade, I'm sure Rogues aren't using Feint, and there's plenty of others. If a situation arises where they feel they have to use these skills, they either don't know they have the ability, or they'll immediately jump to the conclusion "it's the tank's fault, I shouldn't have to press this button, so I'm not going to" even if they're still trying to compete for top spot on a DPS chart only they care about.

If I use something like Feint, it will reduce threat competition between me and a tank.
I'm talking about skill I use to reduce threat competition between tank and everyone else.

Right now there is EZ-thro dynamite and Oil of Immolation, which I can give to tank to help him.
If there will be something like "conjured dynamite" for mages, it will get same effect.

Warlocks firestone could be a consumable which enchant main hand weapon. It will help too. https://database.turtle-wow.org/?search=firestone

[Balake]

If I use something like Feint, it will reduce threat competition between me and a tank.
I'm talking about skill I use to reduce threat competition between tank and everyone else.

Something like Tricks of the Trade? I think it would be neat to compensate against fury warriors who do much more dps. Rogues group utility is lacking.

[Unvictorahi]

Most of the people posting in this thread don't understand the actual problem with the "lack of tanks". Whoever has said some variant of the "it's a mentality issue" have the right idea, but as a career tank, let me explain the actual problem that no one, not even Turtle staff, can do anything about...

PEOPLE ARE ASSHOLES

Tanking is the most mentally exhausting role in a party (no, don't say DPS is, you're objectively wrong) for a number of reasons. There is a great deal of responsibility on your shoulders, and despite how amazing you are at the job, you still rely on 4 other people cooperating and being on the same wavelength as you. Not only do you have to be on top of your game, but assuming you're going with randos you know nothing about, you have to babysit 4 other people or at least get a feel for how they play and how well they know how to use their tools and how well they know not to do shit like pull the next group because you're taking too long. Even if you try to communicate with these players, oftentimes you'll end up with people who either don't speak your language or otherwise refuse to respond to you as if they're only there to auto-pilot their class and tune out everything else around them.

Couple that with this apparent attitude that many random dungeoneers have towards tanks or literally anyone else but them in general, and the absolute vitriol they will spew when someone isn't playing the game in the ham-fisted, insane way they are that follows logic only they understand. What this does is create a very hostile environment for tanks who are partying outside their guild or friend circle, and means that they have to evaluate if they're in the mood to tank a dungeon. Three times in the last 2 weeks I got online on my tank main and asked myself out loud, "Do I have the mental energy to tank a dungeon with randos today? ... No, I don't. I'll just go quest."

You can give every class the ability to tank. You can remove threat entirely. You can tear the game apart and build it into something completely different from scratch. But no matter what you do, you are not going to improve the pool of potential tank players unless people quit acting like absolute shitheads to their fellow players or telling their last 3 tanks "ur shit and you should kill urself" only to turn around and then whine that they can't find a tank for their 4th dungeon.

As someone that has tanked from live vanilla to end game tbc let me disagree with you, tanking is quite easy actually, 100% of the time dungeon wipes are the DPS fault, body pull, not attacking right targets, etc... people need to stop thinking tanking is hard in this game when all you need is at least 3 functioning brain cells and a couple of fingers to press 3 buttons, the real issue is when retarded dps start pulling and bursting like theres no tomorrow expecting tanks to grab aggro from 3 targets at the same time and healers "doing its job" when the dps are the ones actually fucking things up.

[Glavorli]

As someone that has tanked from live vanilla to end game tbc let me disagree with you, tanking is quite easy actually, 100% of the time dungeon wipes are the DPS fault, body pull, not attacking right targets, etc... people need to stop thinking tanking is hard in this game when all you need is at least 3 functioning brain cells and a couple of fingers to press 3 buttons, the real issue is when retarded dps start pulling and bursting like theres no tomorrow expecting tanks to grab aggro from 3 targets at the same time and healers "doing its job" when the dps are the ones actually fucking things up.

We also didnt mention the changes that TurtleWoW made!

Tanking on Turtle is even easier since Warriors can use Thunderclap in Defensive stance!
You can spam Thunderclap + Demo Shout (2 buttons) and keep aggro vs. 3 Mages blizzarding. No problem.

And Druids have their new Clearcasting thingy, that omen thing in the Boomkin tree, that allows them
so spam swipe like mad (wich is super fun!!!).

I wouldnt say 100% of the time, Ive seen bad tanks, its not like bad tanks dont exist,
but youre right, its not like you need to be Einstein to be able to tank in this 20 year old game.

[Balake]

-

[Savan36]

The real problem is that in wow vanilla the only class that can be a true Tank is the Warrior, he has the talent and skills for that, and the only armor tiers he has condemn him to being just a tank. This is something that few know, for example I love tanking with the paladin in Wotlk, but in vanilla... the paladin hardly has the talents or skills to be a Tank and to top it off his tiers condemn him to being exclusively a Healer , and I don't like being a healer... xD and the same happens with the druid.

The only solution to this would be to modify the Paladin and Druid classes so that they were tanks equal to Wotlk's by adding custom talents and abilities and adding custom tiers and armor so that it makes sense that these classes want to be tanks knowing that pve rewards await them. in the form of better equipment for tanks in high level dungeons and raids.

But of course, I also understand that this would adulterate the vanilla experience a lot and anyone could say "go to Wotlk, there you have those changes"

It's a complicated dilemma =/

[Glavorli]

The real problem is that in wow vanilla the only class that can be a true Tank is the Warrior, he has the talent and skills for that, and the only armor tiers he has condemn him to being just a tank.

Oh thats wrong my man. :(
Here is a video of Skarm tanking Naxxramas as a Druid on retail.

And thats just retail, and you can find many more from many other people.
And Ive also tanked all of Naxx except for 2 Bosses on my Druid on multiple private servers.
And so did many other people.

Druids can tank 99% of the content, some even better then a warrior. Especially here on TurtleWoW
where Druid Tanks deal insane damage because of Omen.

[Unvictorahi]

The real problem is that in wow vanilla the only class that can be a true Tank is the Warrior, he has the talent and skills for that, and the only armor tiers he has condemn him to being just a tank.

Oh thats wrong my man. :(
Here is a video of Skarm tanking Naxxramas as a Druid on retail.

And thats just retail, and you can find many more from many other people.
And Ive also tanked all of Naxx except for 2 Bosses on my Druid on multiple private servers.
And so did many other people.

Druids can tank 99% of the content, some even better then a warrior. Especially here on TurtleWoW
where Druid Tanks deal insane damage because of Omen.

To be fair, Skarm could tank with an Arcane mage if he want to...

Also, "warriors are the only true tanks" is very misleading, Paladins are better in 5 mans, Druids are better than warriors in some fights so... it would be something like "Warriors are the best MAIN TANKS"

[Glavorli]

To be fair, Skarm could tank with an Arcane mage if he want to...

Also, "warriors are the only true tanks" is very misleading, Paladins are better in 5 mans, Druids are better than warriors in some fights so... it would be something like "Warriors are the best MAIN TANKS"

Hmmm, but like I said, its not just Skarm, and its not like he did anything special here, he did what we all do, he pressed a few buttons. You could have done that too. Its really just Abomination Wing in Naxx that can give Druid a bit of a problem because Bear cant block. But thats it. Otherwise Druid can outperform Warrior, or at least go even with him.

If anything I would go as far as to say:

-Paladins are the best in 5mans.
-Druids are better then Warriors in 5mans.
-Druids and Warriors are on par in raids. (Some (magic heavy) Bosses Druid outperforms, and 2 Naxx bosses War outperforms.).

[Shamma]

If anything I would go as far as to say:

-Paladins are the best in 5mans.
-Druids are better then Warriors in 5mans.
-Druids and Warriors are on par in raids. (Some (magic heavy) Bosses Druid outperforms, and 2 Naxx bosses War outperforms.).

If anything I disagree with this. But I am curious to read why you say that.

[Glavorli]

If anything I would go as far as to say:

-Paladins are the best in 5mans.
-Druids are better then Warriors in 5mans.
-Druids and Warriors are on par in raids. (Some (magic heavy) Bosses Druid outperforms, and 2 Naxx bosses War outperforms.).

If anything I disagree with this. But I am curious to read why you say that.

- Paladins have unlimitied aoe threat wich is good in 5mans and unimportant in raids (BRD etc.) + utility
- Druids have more utility and better aoe threat then Warrior due to Omen+Swipe spam + thorns wich is better in 5mans, stronger then TC+DS, basically a weaker Paladin but still better then Warrior in 5mans
- Druids can outperform Warriors on certain bosses, and Warriors can outperform Druid on certain (heavy physical dmg) Bosses

EDIT: Only exception are hardcore minmax guilds, where threat becomes more important then damage midigation,
and where warriors go deep into fury as a maintank just to keep up with the threat.

If youre in a hardcore, minmax guild, then nothing can beat a Warrior maintank.
But you need a good guild for that.

[Ishilu]

I dont know if thats good.

Im a tank main. I dont have a problem to invite other fury's or hybrids, simply because I have a boomkin too.
And its not like I as a tank am doing all the work. Thats not true. DPS is also part of the job, and I
appreciate a good DPS, someone who does his job the way hes supposed to, maybe even brings some
extras in the form of consumables etc, just like I do (you will never catch me doing a dungeon without
my oil of immolation!). I appreciate that. I also dont look at other players as competition, but rather as
potential friends - if youre funny, my man you can do 0 DPS and ninja all loot Ill still tank for you .
But you gotta make me laugh.

And when im on my Boomy, I expect you guys to invite me the same way I invite you all when im on my tank.
Its a give and take. And so far my Boomy has always been invited.

You're partially right. If we look at raid content, I believe that all specs should have a place and get an opportunity to get rewarded for good gameplay. I strongly reject the notion that some specs are "unviable" for raid content. Granted, you need a specific setup if you want to score on some leaderboard, but I doubt that sweaty meta gameplay was ever intended by the devs.

Looking at leveling content, I think we also agree that every class and spec can pull their weight in more ways than just "pumping" (btw, using this term unironically is another red flag for me). I like to play a lot of alts and I always like to really "play" my classes. When I join a group as dps, I get bored when I don't CC, interrupt, off-tank, off-heal or kite. I hate being carried and I love getting creative with the various toolkits offered by different classes and specs.

Therefore, I have little understanding for hybrid players who refuse to acknowledge the fact that they even can heal or tank. How can they not see their big spellbook full of fun gimmicks and rejoice in the endless possibilities? How can they reduce gameplay to a dps rotation? I just don't get it.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here, but therefore I personally lack any compassion for e.g. a lvl 45 fury warrior (I'm leveling one myself) spending hours looking for a tank for ZF. If they want the XP/loot/quests so urgently, then nothing is stopping them from swapping out a shield and getting stuff done.

I don't feel like I'm "punishing" their behaviour when I handpick my groups without them, but I'm not supporting it either. I rather encourage everybody to uncover the full potential of their class .

Also, let's face it: server pop is huuuuuuge at the moment, so there's plenty of opportunity for everybody .

Off topic a small tip for any newcomers about the /who command for handpicking a group.

Example: /who c-warrior c-shaman c-paladin c-druid 32-37 z-ashenvale
will give you a list of all warriors, druids, shamans, paladins in ashenvale in a levelrange from 32-37 in ashenvale. I normally leave out the zone part, but I use this command to find specific classes in a specific levelrange.

Using this and politely whispering to people is much faster than "/5 LF TANK FOR ZF, Q PLS!!11"

[Glavorli]

Therefore, I have little understanding for hybrid players who refuse to acknowledge the fact that they even can heal or tank. How can they not see their big spellbook full of fun gimmicks and rejoice in the endless possibilities? How can they reduce gameplay to a dps rotation? I just don't get it.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here, but therefore I personally lack any compassion for e.g. a lvl 45 fury warrior (I'm leveling one myself) spending hours looking for a tank for ZF. If they want the XP/loot/quests so urgently, then nothing is stopping them from swapping out a shield and getting stuff done.

Oh but Ishilu I said the same thing about hybrids on Page 3, here :

And btw, all dungeons except for the high level ones like Scholo or UBRS 10 man can be done as fury.
A shield is all a fury warrior needs to tank dungeons. If you have a good group you can probably even tank UBRS
with a shield as fury, heck you can probably even go to raid with it if your group is solid.

And I never ever have a problem finding a tank because im not lazy and I dont use LFT, I use /who instead
and I directly whisper all warriors, paladins and druids.
I always find tanks within minutes even at 5 am servertime.

We dont disagree. We both agree and we both said the same thing. I just said it a page earlier,
and you probably didnt see it.

I dont want to "protect" hybrids who refuse to take over the role of a tank or healer by any means.
If you check Page 3 you will see it.
In fact, I dont like it either!

If youre a warrior, you should have a shield in your inventory bag at all times.

But I also dont want to dismiss hybrids that want to have some fun.
Im kinda in the middle. I want to people to have fun, but I also want people to take some responsiblity
and not be selfish. You can play your Undead Rogue, but also make a Tank or a Healer for the community.

[Shamma]

Ishilu hitting bullseye again. Great essay with the correct msg and advice on point.

Learn to use /who to hand pick your grp - this was already suggested in the thread, but it is always worth repeating. Find your tank, befriend him - fill your friends list with tanks and healers, who like you - be a smart dps.

And yes - learn to appreciate all facets of your class. So much fun pulling the versatility card out.

[Unvictorahi]

And yes - learn to appreciate all facets of your class. So much fun pulling the versatility card out.

My theory is that when a hybrid class spec into dps all their support skills get disabled so they can use em and that's why you never see a enhacement shaman, retribution paladin or even a balance druid healing if needed

[Redmagejoe]

You both completely misunderstood my post. Not once did I say tanking was "hard".

Tanking is the most mentally exhausting role in a party

It was inevitable that someone would reply to this with something along the lines of something dismissive, though I commend you both for not being reductive about it. If you're able to completely turn your brain off when playing the game even with other people, my hat is off to you. Not everyone is capable of doing that because some of us are actually completely focused on our dungeon group mentally, because sure, it's "easy" when you know what needs to be done, but it also assumes everyone is doing their job 100% of the time. Having to constantly be on the vigil for someone doing something stupid creates mental fatigue on top of the 1 hour of being on 100% high alert and focus, and the reason you as a tank are doing those things is because of past experience with bad party members.

It is impossible after literally 100s of dungeon runs over almost 2 decades for me to simply not put more than "3 brain cells" into my role, and I'd advise against expecting that as the norm or you'll get those bad tanks you mention.

[Shamma]

And yes - learn to appreciate all facets of your class. So much fun pulling the versatility card out.

My theory is that when a hybrid class spec into dps all their support skills get disabled so they can use em and that's why you never see a enhacement shaman, retribution paladin or even a balance druid healing if needed

You might be onto something :D. I guess some of us discussing here just never specced THAT deep into DPS before.

[Glavorli]

You both completely misunderstood my post. Not once did I say tanking was "hard".

It was inevitable that someone would reply to this with something along the lines of something dismissive, though I commend you both for not being reductive about it. If you're able to completely turn your brain off when playing the game even with other people, my hat is off to you. Not everyone is capable of doing that because some of us are actually completely focused on our dungeon group mentally, because sure, it's "easy" when you know what needs to be done, but it also assumes everyone is doing their job 100% of the time. Having to constantly be on the vigil for someone doing something stupid creates mental fatigue on top of the 1 hour of being on 100% high alert and focus, and the reason you as a tank are doing those things is because of past experience with bad party members.

It is impossible after literally 100s of dungeon runs over almost 2 decades for me to simply not put more than "3 brain cells" into my role, and I'd advise against expecting that as the norm or you'll get those bad tanks you mention.

But mental exhaustion is a form of difficulty.

And if I missunderstood you so much, then how is it possible, that I agree with you partially?

Because when it comes to your initial statement, that tanking is mentally exhausting, way more then DPSing
is, then I agree, and I also threw in healers into the mix, since healing needs quick reactions and is also very exhausting. I did both of that on page 3.

But I also didnt fully agree with Unvictorahi who said :

100% of the time dungeon wipes are the DPS fault

Wich is definetely not true and almost absurd...
Bad tanks exists, and bad healers also exist.
Anything a human is behind can be the cause of errors.

[Redmagejoe]

I don't think hard and difficult are synonymous with exhausting. Plenty of games are tedious, but we would agree they aren't hard. Repetitive, tedious things over a long period of time can be mentally exhausting, and while those aren't the words I'd like to use to describe tanking dungeons, they are fairly close. Having your mind on high alert for an hour or more is going to wear you out. Complexity that is demanding of your brain is certainly going to mentally exhaust you faster, but in this metaphor, the issue isn't deadlifting so much as it is holding a rep for as long as humanly possible.

[Ishilu]

We dont disagree. We both agree and we both said the same thing. I just said it a page earlier,
and you probably didnt see it.

I dont want to "protect" hybrids who refuse to take over the role of a tank or healer by any means.
If you check Page 3 you will see it.
In fact, I dont like it either!

If youre a warrior, you should have a shield in your inventory bag at all times.

But I also dont want to dismiss hybrids that want to have some fun.
Im kinda in the middle. I want to people to have fun, but I also want people to take some responsiblity
and not be selfish. You can play your Undead Rogue, but also make a Tank or a Healer for the community.

Yeah, you're right. I'd actually seen your posts but just didn't have them in mind when I wrote my last reply. Sorry about that, we're absolutely on the same page here .

EDIT: Thanks @Shamma

[Glavorli]

Yeah, you're right. I'd actually seen your posts but just didn't have them in mind when I wrote my last reply. Sorry about that, we're absolutely on the same page here .

Yea I figured. Np dude we both on the same page here

I don't think hard and difficult are synonymous with exhausting. Plenty of games are tedious, but we would agree they aren't hard. Repetitive, tedious things over a long period of time can be mentally exhausting, and while those aren't the words I'd like to use to describe tanking dungeons, they are fairly close. Having your mind on high alert for an hour or more is going to wear you out. Complexity that is demanding of your brain is certainly going to mentally exhaust you faster, but in this metaphor, the issue isn't deadlifting so much as it is holding a rep for as long as humanly possible.

Despite the definition, did I or did I not agree with you on page 3, clearly, that tanking is more "difficult" or however
you want to call it, yes or no? I did.

And as for the definition of the word "difficult", the Oxford Dictionary says:

difficult = a thing that is hard to accomplish, deal with, or understand.

"Deal with" being very close to the kind of state youre describing.

Mental exhaustion is something that is hard to "deal with".

And therefore, I, after taking the Oxford Dict. as a basis, would say, that mental exhaustion is a form of difficulty.