Undead Paladin and Human Shaman

[Kazuu]

Now, now, I know what you're gonna say: "There can't be any Undead paladins! The Light hurts them!" Well, give me a chance here. I'm certain I can persuade you otherwise if you do. Forsaken priests using the Light and somehow hurting themselves with every heal is a popular myth; like how everyone thinks touching a baby bird makes the mother reject it, but that's not actually true. Cause it is true that the Forsaken can't use the Light, so, the myth is grounded in reality (which makes it easy to believe), but it's not the whole picture.

I think Forsaken priests don't use the Light. As it states in the very first class quest you ever get in Deathknell, "the Holy Light no longer concerns you." The next dialogue with the same priest trainer then states, "We have survived through will alone. It is faith in ourselves that separates us from others." To me, this seems to express pretty blatantly that they're not using the Holy Light, and instead their powers come from within. After all, it would be kinda weird for a shaman to say "the elements no longer concern you," or a mage to say "the arcane no longer concerns you," or a warrior to say "big ass hammers no longer concern you." I'd say that the source of all your power is a pretty big concern to you, so, that to me says the Holy Light is not the source of their power. Combined with "we have survived through will alone," well, that also doesn't sound like something a priest of the Holy Light would say.

Further, the Forsaken are basically just fermented Lordaeronians, so, they already have the culture necessary to institute paladinhood. I'm pretty sure the main reason for not giving paladins to the Horde was faction identity. But with cross-faction everything and the upcoming mercenary system, it doesn't matter anymore. If you can handwave Forsaken priests, you can handwave Forsaken paladins.

But what about Human shamans? Surely that's ridiculous, right? Well, not as much as you might think. Everyone wants Dwarf shamans, but I think this is because of retail. Dwarves in Vanilla WoW are not at all in tune with nature. They're so not in tune with nature, in fact, that one Tauren, Gann, asks you to slaughter them and blow them up, and another Tauren, Baine, asks you to slaughter them and break their pickaxes as an added insult. Being so offensive to nature that the Tauren of all races find no recourse but to kill you all wholesale is something unique to the Dwarves out of all playable races.

And get this: there're already Human shamans in the game. Kurzen Witch Doctors! It's not really that much of a stretch to just slap a shack somewhere in Northshire and write a shaman trainer who defected from the Kurzen after receiving a spirit vision giving him the mission to re-teach the ways of the elements to humanity. Yes, you read that right — re-teach. "In the early days of humanity and its civilization, many tribes of humans had primitive belief systems that incorporated simple nature magic." Humans were already shamans at one point! Or druids, I guess, but, po-tay-to po-tah-to.

I guess you could also make Night Elf shamans, but, that just sounds gross, like "moist towelette." Anyway, that's my suggestion for adding Undead paladins and Human shamans.

[Allwynd01]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

[Kazuu]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

Idc

[Biteyou]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

Idc

This topic is posted nearly monthly now and has been talked about to no end, but fairly certain devs have said they would never do this.

[Gladeshadow]

The devs indeed said they'll never do this.

I've said people that want this can go to another server. This server is for people who enjoy a Vanilla+ experience. The TBC+ experience exists on other servers. I sincerely hope those who want that experience find it there (and leave us alone).

[Xerilin]

This post is an entertaining read, ty! I don't really agree with everything (your point about dwarf shamans is a very good one), but I enjoyed reading it.

[Kazuu]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

Idc

This topic is posted nearly monthly now and has been talked about to no end, but fairly certain devs have said they would never do this.

They can say what they want but if I rattle my cage and scream loudly enough I'm sure I can change their minds

[Tanasa]

The undead can absolutely wield the light, it just really fucking sucks. They feel the full Frankensteinian state of their condition. Worms and rot and missing guts and all. This actually lends more credence to your request as far as I'm concerned.

I've also always enjoyed that as a suitably masochistic take for a Forsaken in that it requires an immense sort of badass to overcome searing themselves with the antipathy of their very being as a conscious rejection of their physical form. As a race defined by breaking their chains it's super fitting imo.

[Mac]

Forsaken paladins would be so fun. Human shamans would be great too but I’d also really love Dwarf shamans. I didn’t play the expansions much. I just really think it fits their aesthetic, and more dwarf classes is great. But Human shamans are also an interesting concept.

[Zeran]

I think it's fine to keep things as it is in this instance and to preserve faction identity. So, Shamans only on Horde and Paladins only on Alliance.

[Akos1896]

I'm pro faction identity.
As long as they balance PVP, it should be fine. At PVE content there is crossfaction anyway.

[Deso5618]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

I like idea of new faction specific new classes. Both factions have good choices to playable like. Horde necrolytes, Alliance Knights etc.

[Bellybutton]

Undead Paladins will never work because Paladins are literally a class based entirely around WEAPONIZING the Holy Light against the threats of Humanity/the Alliance, both lore-wise and mechanically. Priests only use the Light mechanically but lore-wise the source of a priest's power is tied to whatever religion of the race they come from. There's murlocs who cast light-class spells but all of us know that Murlocs don't follow the same religions and teachings as Humans do.

Paladins specifically uphold a vow to the Church of the Holy Light/religion of the Holy Light, rather than just wield light-based magic. It's why Dwarf paladins and High Elf paladins follow the same teachings as the humans rather than some cultural class twisted into the shape of a Paladin. Paladins were specifically formed to fight against the evil and darkness of the original Horde, and hard counter Gul'Dan's original death knights and the original Horde's necromancy/shadow magic, and specifically hard counter undeath and fel magic. Paladins uphold justice and all that's seen as good in human society, and canonically lose their powers if they completely willingly and knowingly do evil, or completely willingly and knowingly break their vows. The Forsaken, even though they're not downright evil, represent literally everything that Paladins fight against, and canonically the curse of Undeath has made it so that practically all Forsaken, even if they're not evil, are cynical and morally corrupt and thus break the oath, rendering them unable to be Paladins.

There's niche cases of Undead Paladins NPCs/enemies in Vanilla but they're not the Forsaken. They're former Paladins raised by Necromancers and forced to wield the Light against their will despite the pain it causes to their body. They're not free agents upholding their oath, nor are they willingly breaking their oath.

[Bellybutton]

Essentially, an Undead can use Light magic as a priest (but it would hurt them canonically). But the playable Undead priests don't use Light magic in the same way that the Alliance does. Playable Forsaken Priests follow the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a reinterpretation of the Holy Light to suit the Forsaken's much more self-serving, selfish, morally grey needs. The only reason SOME undead priests can use pure light magic in lore is simply because unlike Paladins, priests' light magic isn't weaponized in such a way that it's hyperfocused against undeath and dark magic. An undead priest casting light magic would simply hurt them. A lot. A Paladin's light magic on the other hand is entirely focused around killing the undead, killing demons, and vanquishing darkness. It'd be nearly impossible for an Undead character to be a paladin and the only reason that there's some instances of undead Paladins enemies in vanilla is literally because they're literally puppets being controlled by necromancers.

[Grizb37]

Go play TBC

[Dracarusggotham]

Essentially, an Undead can use Light magic as a priest (but it would hurt them canonically). But the playable Undead priests don't use Light magic in the same way that the Alliance does. Playable Forsaken Priests follow the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a reinterpretation of the Holy Light to suit the Forsaken's much more self-serving, selfish, morally grey needs. The only reason SOME undead priests can use pure light magic in lore is simply because unlike Paladins, priests' light magic isn't weaponized in such a way that it's hyperfocused against undeath and dark magic. An undead priest casting light magic would simply hurt them. A lot. A Paladin's light magic on the other hand is entirely focused around killing the undead, killing demons, and vanquishing darkness. It'd be nearly impossible for an Undead character to be a paladin and the only reason that there's some instances of undead Paladins enemies in vanilla is literally because they're literally puppets being controlled by necromancers.

I don't understand people keep insisting in undead paladins.
Turtle obeys the lore, and lore says the Undeads can't be paladins cause them can't use the light, basic concepts that the people don't understand.
I made a post about the Shamans in the lore section, there's no race in the Alliance what can use the power of the elements, the shamanism came to Azeroth with the orcs.

For the post creator: Want Paladins in the Horde and Shamans in the Alliance, GO AND PLAY THE BURNING CRUSADE.

[Allwynd01]

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

Idc

Cope then.

It's been said - it won't happen. Neither Forsaken Paladins, neither any other Horde race Paladins, nor any Alliance race Shaman. Shaman is a Horde class and Paladin is an Alliance class and this is how it will remain. It's more likely that new Horde and new Alliance classes might appear, and that is very highly unlikely to ever happen due to the effort needed.

I like idea of new faction specific new classes. Both factions have good choices to playable like. Horde necrolytes, Alliance Knights etc.

It can be interesting to see, but it's another pipe dream that I don't think the Turtle WoW team will ever do. They have announced Turtle WoW 2.0, which so far nobody knows what it is, it just might be something to surprise everyone with.

[Czasku]

Human Shaman and Orc Paladin.
Why orc you ask? Because Undead's never fit the light theme and Orc's fit more in that Honor and Justice. Turtle WOW should make an Order of the Green Jesus which Orc Paladin's power come from so they believe in Thrall's magic powers of being the big magic pickle. The class leader could be Med'an because you know, he's an quarter orc with powers of Shamanism and Magic and the Light. Also nerf the holy strike because paladins are op because they can crit my Warlock for 3.5k when i can Soul Fire for only 5k.


After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

[Allwynd01]

After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

Probably because delusional people, in their delusion, thought that if they pay for the game, they can make all kinds of outrageous demands. Kind of like what happens here, except 95% of the people don't support Turtle WoW financially.

[Darktifa]

Human Shaman and Orc Paladin.
Why orc you ask? Because Undead's never fit the light theme and Orc's fit more in that Honor and Justice. Turtle WOW should make an Order of the Green Jesus which Orc Paladin's power come from so they believe in Thrall's magic powers of being the big magic pickle. The class leader could be Med'an because you know, he's an quarter orc with powers of Shamanism and Magic and the Light. Also nerf the holy strike because paladins are op because they can crit my Warlock for 3.5k when i can Soul Fire for only 5k.


After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

Thank u stranger for my new forum signature!

Probably because delusional people, in their delusion, thought that if they pay for the game, they can make all kinds of outrageous demands. Kind of like what happens here, except 95% of the people don't support Turtle WoW financially.

Amen!

[Gheor]

Idc

This topic is posted nearly monthly now and has been talked about to no end, but fairly certain devs have said they would never do this.

They can say what they want but if I rattle my cage and scream loudly enough I'm sure I can change their minds

Hah.

[Natuaduck]

If anything, like with Shaman, I think it'd be far more interesting to have more variation between the class/race combos for a Vanilla+ experience like with the Priest racials than arbitrarily trying to cope in a new race/class combo just because.

[Akos1896]

If anything, like with Shaman, I think it'd be far more interesting to have more variation between the class/race combos for a Vanilla+ experience like with the Priest racials than arbitrarily trying to cope in a new race/class combo just because.

+1 for variety
What I say now is kinda arbitrary but I believe that each DPS and healer spec should have some kind of raid rotation. Spamming 1 button and occassionally decurse/curse/buff/put down totems in a 2h long raid weeks in-weeks out is tiring.
My arbitrary numbers for any DPS/healer in raids are:
No damaging/healing ability being responsible for more than 70% of the heal/damage and at least 3 different healing spell/damage ability has at least 15% contribution in the healing/damage.
Not sure if it's doable but some kind of rotation makes the game more interesting.
My example: I main a resto shaman. Occassionally checking raid logs from myself and others to learn. In my experience resto healing output is best with 90-95% chain heal. Sure, we put down totems etc but imagine this gameplay 3x a week, 2h each. Tried to 'cheat myself into a rotation' with more lesser healing wave, healing wave and even cionsidering healing totem but the more I deviate from this 90-95% chain heal formula, the worse my output is.

[Geojak]

The devs indeed said they'll never do this.

I've said people that want this can go to another server. This server is for people who enjoy a Vanilla+ experience. The TBC+ experience exists on other servers. I sincerely hope those who want that experience find it there (and leave us alone).

Will project epoch have dwarf shaman?

Edit: yes just checked, they will have wildhammer shamans. Guess that's were peolle wanting this will have to go