Nerf Lasher Farm

[Jc473]

Exactly. The real solution to the problem is not to nerf the farm but to nerf the consume. Make it like world buff nerf where you cannot use any consume in raid or limit the number of consume you can use in raid

A lot of people enjoy the preparation part of Vanilla raiding. Also, the wide variety of consumes encourages people to interact with many parts of the world which helps breathe life into it. Removing raid consumes or condensing them into the TBC battle/guardian elixirs will seriously detract from these two points.

Then those people should not whine about high prices or inflation.
Enjoy your preparation in DME.

It’s a perfectly reasonable request for the people who enjoy raid preparation to not have to contend with absurdly high prices. You make it sound like this problem cannot be solved in any other way than either removing raid consumes completely or follow the TBC design.

They will continue to address the gold farming outliers and add other measures to alleviate the pricing issues. In time, they crack this nut.

[Jongyi]

A lot of people enjoy the preparation part of Vanilla raiding. Also, the wide variety of consumes encourages people to interact with many parts of the world which helps breathe life into it. Removing raid consumes or condensing them into the TBC battle/guardian elixirs will seriously detract from these two points.

Then those people should not whine about high prices or inflation.
Enjoy your preparation in DME.

It’s a perfectly reasonable request for the people who enjoy raid preparation to not have to contend with absurdly high prices. You make it sound like this problem cannot be solved in any other way than either removing raid consumes completely or follow the TBC design.

They will continue to address the gold farming outliers and add other measures to alleviate the pricing issues. In time, they crack this nut.

Why should they waste time nerfing DME or any other farms which likely won't work while they can just nerf the consume?
It is the first world problem in the server where only the small percentage of server experience while non-raiders have no issues.
Even if you dont't want to completely remove the consume in raid, I say limit the number of consume you can use in each raid and increase the cooldown of consume to 14 days so that raiders cannot act like drug addict and overuse the consume.
And increase the duration of consume for compensation and introduce new items like chrono dispensers where you can store buff of consume for later uses.
Raiders don't have to be drug addicts who use consume 24/7 and rest of the people dont have to bend their arses for the needs of raiders.
And as far as i can tell, most of whiners here don't really care about inflation or economy. They just want to continue their drug addict raiding life styles without farming

[Xudo]

You make it sound like this problem cannot be solved in any other way than either removing raid consumes completely or follow the TBC design.

They will continue to address the gold farming outliers and add other measures to alleviate the pricing issues. In time, they crack this nut.

First of all, I don't agree that nerfing farm will help. Way to nerf elixir consumption is open discussion. My proposal is: "only 1 consume of every type can be active: 1 juju, 1 e'co, 1 zanza, 1 alchemy elixir, 1 alchemy flask, 1 scroll, 1 food. Effects of potions are not affected."
This rule will use all consumable sources. All parts of the world will be engaged. I proposed this with respect to how twow devs changed zanzas, e'cos and juju.

Flooding the world with herbs could work too. I don't propose it because it is so obvious solution, that twow devs have probably thought of, but declined.

Adding other sources of existing alchemy elixirs could work too. For example exchange for pvp tokens or pve dailies.

Nerfing "outlier" farms will lead to situation when people should spend more time on less profitable farm.
Because price of consumables won't drop. Demand for elixirs is much higher than supply of herbs. Market situation leads to price increase.

Raiders don't have to be drug addicts who use consume 24/7 and rest of the people dont have to bend their arses for the needs of raiders.

Quoted for truth.

[Lazarix]

ITT: waah raiders are the minority waah

[Jc473]

Flooding the world with herbs could work too. I don't propose it because it is so obvious solution, that twow devs have probably thought of, but declined.

Yes, I also think this seems like an obvious solution and so they must have their reasons why they are not choosing it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they resort to it if their other measures fail to achieve their goal. So, watch this space!

Adding other sources of existing alchemy elixirs could work too. For example exchange for pvp tokens or pve dailies.

Yes, I also like this approach. Adding ways to encourage other aspects of the game (e.g. battlegrounds, regular dungeons etc) to acquire resources is great for the game.

Nerfing "outlier" farms will lead to situation when people should spend more time on less profitable farm.
Because price of consumables won't drop. Demand for elixirs is much higher than supply of herbs. Market situation leads to price increase.

I've mentioned in my previous post that the buyers will not accept the same prices if they have to work that much harder for them. You can easily see this if you take an extreme example. Imagine if all gold farms were reduced by 80% output. Do you really think the players would compensate their effort to match the existing prices!? Not a bloody chance...! So, as mentioned time and time again, this particular farm is an outlier. Nerfing it will put a big dent in peoples' wallets and will require a hell of a lot more effort to meet the existing prices. The result would be a lot of people refusing to pay the existing prices which would create a downward pressure on them. If you don't accept this logic, then I'll guess we'll just have to 'agree to disagree'.

To be clear, I'm not guaranteeing that this lasher farm, alone, would be enough to cause a meaningful change. But I'm very sure it would be a step in the right direction reign in the rampant inflation.

Raiders don't have to be drug addicts who use consume 24/7 and rest of the people dont have to bend their arses for the needs of raiders.

Quoted for truth.

I just want to point out that the rampant inflation can have an effect on almost any item on the AH. If we took some of the proposed design ideas to either remove or drastically reduce consumable in raids, I can assure you that people would start to target other items to make a profit on. In fact, high value trade items like mooncloth, enchanted leather, arcanite bar etc. are already being effected by this inflation. But it could easily include small items (e.g. cloth, leather, ore etc) too.

If you are both only focusing on the effect on consumable prices, you are being narrow minded.

Way to nerf elixir consumption is open discussion. My proposal is: "only 1 consume of every type can be active: 1 juju, 1 e'co, 1 zanza, 1 alchemy elixir, 1 alchemy flask, 1 scroll. Effects of potions are not affected."
This rule will use all consumable sources. All parts of the world will be engaged. I proposed this with respect to how twow devs changed zanzas, e'cos and juju.

To be honest, if you want to propose a rework to the consumable system, I think this sort of thing deserves its own thread and discussion. But I will say that it doesn't look like the TWoW staff want to take this approach given their recent changes:
1) They've actually added more consumables to the game (e.g. Dreamshard Elixir and Dreamtonic) and allowed for more of them to stack with each other.
2) They've allowed them to persist through death.

These are definitely not the actions of people who want to remove or reduce consumable usage in dungeons/raids.

[Xudo]

Nerfing "outlier" farms will lead to situation when people should spend more time on less profitable farm.
Because price of consumables won't drop. Demand for elixirs is much higher than supply of herbs. Market situation leads to price increase.

I've mentioned in my previous post that the buyers will not accept the same prices if they have to work that much harder for them. You can easily see this if you take an extreme example. Imagine if all gold farms were reduced by 80% output. Do you really think the players would compensate their effort to match the existing prices!?

They will. They already doing this. According to price statistics Gromsblood price increased from ~1g17s at 20 february to 1g47s at 18 March. Price increased for 20% in a month. It is as effective as "all gold farms were reduced to 80% output".
This night I sold 60 Gromsblood for 1g56s price. It is +30% compared to february price.
Writing this reply I sold 20 gromsblood for 1g64s. Real price to buy herbs is higher than listed in stats.

Thats why I am completely confident that nerfing farm will increase amount of time spent by raiders, but will not reduce prices. Those consumables addicts will just farm more.

I just want to point out that the rampant inflation can have an effect on almost any item on the AH. If we took some of the proposed design ideas to either remove or drastically reduce consumable in raids, I can assure you that people would start to target other items to make a profit on. In fact, high value trade items like mooncloth, enchanted leather, arcanite bar etc. are already being effected by this inflation. But it could easily include small items (e.g. cloth, leather, ore etc) too.

If you are both only focusing on the effect on consumable prices, you are being narrow minded.

Difference is in volume of demand.
Consumables are different compared to mooncloth and stuff because you don't need mooncloth on weekly basis.
You need fixed amount of gold per character for your neccessary crafts. When you get your crafts, you don't care about materials price anymore.
For some reason, Greater Eternal Essence stats doesn't suffer from steady growth while this resource has high demand.
Arcanite bar stats is around of 30g-31g per item last month without steady growth.

Way to nerf elixir consumption is open discussion. My proposal is: "only 1 consume of every type can be active: 1 juju, 1 e'co, 1 zanza, 1 alchemy elixir, 1 alchemy flask, 1 scroll. Effects of potions are not affected."
This rule will use all consumable sources. All parts of the world will be engaged. I proposed this with respect to how twow devs changed zanzas, e'cos and juju.

To be honest, if you want to propose a rework to the consumable system, I think this sort of thing deserves its own thread and discussion. But I will say that it doesn't look like the TWoW staff want to take this approach given their recent changes:
1) They've actually added more consumables to the game (e.g. Dreamshard Elixir and Dreamtonic) and allowed for more of them to stack with each other.
2) They've allowed them to persist through death.

These are definitely not the actions of people who want to remove or reduce consumable usage in dungeons/raids.

Thats why I think that current price situation is ok for twow devs and they won't do significant intervention to reduce amount of people farming gold. Because when people spend a lot of time farming gold, they contribute to population number.
Raiders have created their own hell. All solutions look bad, whether it is nerfing consumables or nerfing farms.
I would rather see class changes, pvp improvements or new content. Those consumables addicts are beyond saving.

[Jc473]

They will. They already doing this. According to price statistics Gromsblood price increased from ~1g17s at 20 february to 1g47s at 18 March. Price increased for 20% in a month. It is as effective as "all gold farms were reduced to 80% output".
This night I sold 60 Gromsblood for 1g56s price. It is +30% compared to february price.
Writing this reply I sold 20 gromsblood for 1g64s. Real price to buy herbs is higher than listed in stats.

Thats why I am completely confident that nerfing farm will increase amount of time spent by raiders, but will not reduce prices. Those consumables addicts will just farm more.

Yes, you have evidenced that consumable prices are rapidly rising and that players are, presumably, still buying them. Indeed, this suggests that players are willing to put more effort into farming to meet these rising prices. However, there is always a breaking point where players will say "enough is enough, I'm not doing this anymore" and they either quit or just refuse to consume anymore. This would happen even if all gold farms were untouched because the players will only have so much willingness to match the inflation. Do you know what would accelerate this? Nerfing one of the most effective gold farms (i.e. an outlier)!

Difference is in volume of demand.
Consumables are different compared to mooncloth and stuff because you don't need mooncloth on weekly basis.
You need fixed amount of gold per character for your neccessary crafts. When you get your crafts, you don't care about materials price anymore.
For some reason, Greater Eternal Essence stats doesn't suffer from steady growth while this resource has high demand.
Arcanite bar stats is around of 30g-31g per item last month without steady growth.

Yes, agree that demand for these sorts of items isn't as consistent as consumables. However, across the playerbase, there will always be a demand for all sorts of goods as new characters/alts are endlessly made. The inflation is just so much more gradual. I bet you there would be a substantial difference in these prices over the last few years of the servers. This happens in any economy. How could it not when there is always some level of demand and increasing gold levels across the player base.

Thats why I think that current price situation is ok for twow devs and they won't do significant intervention to reduce amount of people farming gold. Because when people spend a lot of time farming gold, they contribute to population number.

Akalaix has said many times that he is trying to fix the "current price situation". He has said that they have a number of gold farms in their sights because they are outliers and generate too much gold. They also don't like some of them which are solo driven and prefer people to have to work together in an MMORPG. Trust me when I say, DME lahsers (and other farms) will get nerfs; watch this space.

They have also made changes like Plaguebloom spawning in Stratholme and consumables persisting through death. Akalix has conceded that these haven't had the desired effects on consumable prices and is prepared to take further action. So, as I said before, they will "crack this nut" eventually...

Raiders have created their own hell. All solutions look bad, whether it is nerfing consumables or nerfing farms.
I would rather see class changes, pvp improvements or new content. Those consumables addicts are beyond saving.

Well, quite a few raiders are enjoying their partial solution of consumables persisting through death. Obviously, there are more changes required but I think we can still have "dungeon/raid consuming" and more reasonable/stable consumable prices.

I see that you've already liked some proposals in this thread so perhaps there's hope :)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13426

[Eversongwoods]

looks like they buffed lasher farming by increasing herb drop chances and adding plaguebloom and mt silversage to loot table

[Eversongwoods]

I just noticed part 2 of the economy update and i am not sure what to make of it but the raw gold being reduced is good. The herb changes seem like they will just tank the price of herbs and thus the consumables, i guess that was the point.