PvP & Economy Update

[Erhog]

Dishonorable Kills have been removed, pending a larger scale rework.

Don't forget about arena areas and BGs where you can meet grey players by design.

[Bandyc]

So, from reading your post, you are obviously unhappy with just about all of their changes. Well, all I can say is from listening to player reactions/discussions in the discord server and world chat, the vast majority of players are happy. Why? Because, as Akalix said, almost every single one of these PvP oriented suggestions was taken from community feedback. So, I'm afraid, you represent the minority.

Community feedback by people from the pve-realm looking to try out pvp realizing it's "too much" is exactly what I called it, catering to the pve community. A majority does not represent these community feedback, especially not players with roots in pvp realms or pvp realm playstyle. Such a DHK system would never happen otherwise, that's why I can confidently say so.

This comment is unwarranted given that they rescinded (due to player feedback) the initial change to add DKs for 'grey' player kills. So, let's see what the 'larger scale rework' system is actually about before we judge it. However, revising the DK system has probably also lead them to the idea of disabling it for civilians. Whilst this can lead to people griefing by camping NPCs, it has completely opened up the possibility of town/city raids. Again, this was a much requested feature from the wPvPers. It breathes life into the world and we've already seen plenty examples of Stormwind/Orgrimmar raids. The fact that they've added custom loot tables to the faction leaders means we are only going to see more of this gameplay.

Given what you wrote I simply rest my case.
fyi I did not criticise removing DHK on civilians, not even mentioned or acknowledged it.

It doesn't inflate the honor for rankers at all. Why? Because no 'rankers' are playing WSG/AB/SGV due to the woeful honour per hour when compared to AV. It simply encourages them (and casual PvPers) to start playing other battlegrounds. Again, changing the honour rewards of BGs has been a much requested change. You know full well that the average modern player is reward focused. So, this approach is the quickest, easiest and most effective way of influencing the frequency of each BG being played.

So, I don't think this strategy (in isolation) is redundant at all. As Akalix has said, these changes will be iterative. To date, a lot of unwilling people (especially PvPers) feel compelled to do AV because of the unrivalled honour per hour. They will continue to adjust these honour rewards until people actually get the memo and realise that AV isn't the 'be and end all'.

Youre so incorrect haha.
Rankers play any BG that pops with focus on the daily. If an AV takes too long the honor per player quickly fades, after ~10 kills on the same play they completely or almost stop giving honor. People play AV for the rep, then farm wsg or ab. This has always been the case except early classic meta where each premade AV took like 5-15 min or something, this is absolutly not the case on turtle.
Again, I rest my case.

To be clear, this change is to try and address 'afkers' (not semi-afkers) which is a blight on AV. People have been lamenting about this sort of behaviour since the dawn of time. So, the intent of them trying to do something about it should be applauded. No changes are full proof and I'm sure they will be iterated on after getting some data and hearing feedback.

The reason why they have applied this change is because they don't want to punish people who strategically wait in a position until they see some action. The perfect example is 'tower defenders'. By having a stacking debuff, it gives them time to react to the situation by going to find some combat. As you've said, we don't know what kind of combat is required to reset the timer but we'll find out soon enough. Has it got flaws? Of course, and they'll iterate on the changes.

No this change is trying to address anyone that is leeching rep/honor without participating, and im not gonna repeat myself.

The major reason why existing towers (e.g. Eastern Plaguelands) never saw much action is because too much luck was required to make it work. You need a critical mass of players (more than 10-15) willing to have a sustained PvP session on these towers for people to feel like the system was working. This just never happens organically. Instead, players need to be told that a big battle is happening at EPL towers. This is how the Tarren Mill/Southshore battles work; players just simply make the announcement and the wPvP ensues. Well, this is the strategy of these changes. I promise you, every couple of hours, there will be players asking "which towers are active?".

As for the rewards? Trust me when I say, there are enough wPvPers who will readily participate in this stuff even if there are no rewards other than honour or a buff. It's about creating an easy opportunity to get some wPvP. Someone logs on and asks "any wPvP happening?" or "which towers are active?" and is told "it's currently in Ashenvale". This player can then go to that zone knowing there's a good chance of some action and enjoy themselves for 1-2 hours.

It's a question of is it worth it, is it fun, does it make sense? Not luck what haha??
Wpvp in Tmill has nothing to do with this and only happened because BGs where unreleased, educate yourself.
Also Ive already written the final argument to this, zone control needs better incentive.

[Zulnam]

War Mode has been changed to give 20% bonus honor from all sources, but reduced to 20% bonus experience.

When this happens, can you please disable it without penalty for everybody first? Would that be difficult to do?

Also for people who had it and deactivated it, will they be able to reactivate?



I like the change a lot, but because War Mode can only be turned off once, I think this is the kind of thing that would require a reset of this status for all characters.

[Burunduk]

PvP towers on dead server will not attract players.
I came to TWoW only after class changes, because it's the main thing players want.
TWoW lost player base after SOD release and will lose more players when another Classic+ servers will come out.
If you are affraid of changes someone will take your place.

[Frantsel]

PvP towers on dead server will not attract players.
I came to TWoW only after class changes, because it's the main thing players want.
TWoW lost player base after SOD release and will lose more players when another Classic+ servers will come out.
If you are affraid of changes someone will take your place.

Its true. I will be gone instantly when there will be another classic+ server is out because classbalance is BULLSHIT on turtle wow.

[Jc473]

OK, so, from reading each of your responses, it very much sounds like you aren't playing on the PvP server. You seem to be refering to the experience on the PvE server or how things typically were in Vanilla/Classic. Please say if this is not the case.

Community feedback by people from the pve-realm looking to try out pvp realizing it's "too much" is exactly what I called it, catering to the pve community. A majority does not represent these community feedback, especially not players with roots in pvp realms or pvp realm playstyle. Such a DHK system would never happen otherwise, that's why I can confidently say so.

The feedback and player reaction to the patchnotes I was referring to was specifically from the PvP channel. So, the 'pure' PvPers got what they asked for and are happy with it. Go through the 'general-telabim' discord channel yourself if you don't believe me. The only change that was controversial was the initial one made to the DK system.

Getting DHK by a grey lvl player is just catering to the PvE community that happen to play PvP. How often does this actually happen to warrant such a wild change? Lowbies repeatedly ganked is a non issue.
A 60 killing a 35 STV while running by is a non issue, it's pvp. If it turns into griefing theres a grief ruleset already. Getting no honor is good enough. Sporadic fights creates and makes the world. Uneducated decision.

fyi I did not criticise removing DHK on civilians, not even mentioned or acknowledged it.

I know you didn't mention the 'removing DHK on civilians' change. I brought it up because this was the actual change and I wanted to just describe the value it would bring to the server. Instead, with your typical emotive language, you slammed their initial change, which they retracted due to player feedback. Why is it relevant to talk about it!? They clearly made an initial mistake which is why they are now going to rework the entire system. Is this initial mistake what you are labelling as an 'uneducated decision'. If so, that's just petty.

Youre so incorrect haha.
Rankers play any BG that pops with focus on the daily. If an AV takes too long the honor per player quickly fades, after ~10 kills on the same play they completely or almost stop giving honor. People play AV for the rep, then farm wsg or ab. This has always been the case except early classic meta where each premade AV took like 5-15 min or something, this is absolutly not the case on turtle.
Again, I rest my case.

You think I'm 'so incorrect'!? Again, do you even play on the PvP server? My experience on it so far is that the non-AV BGs only pop if the community actually asks (correction, beg) each other to queue up for them. So, rankers, on our server, play AV because it's pretty much the only BG that happens. Why? Because people want the rep rewards and it's by far the most effective way of grinding honour (prior to this patch, potentially).

As for the PvE server, I don't know what to tell you. They have the data behind the scenes. Clearly people aren't playing the BGs enough (even when 'daily bonus' is in effect), hence the change. Have you ever considered that they want the base level of each BG being played (i.e. when not a 'daily bonus' one) to be higher? I can assure you that from a 'ranker' perspective, they'd never touch any non-AV BG when the corresponding daily bonus isn't in effect.

No this change is trying to address anyone that is leeching rep/honor without participating, and im not gonna repeat myself.

Yes, those who are not participating should be punished. That's pretty obvious. You claim they are the 'tiny minority', I do not. Each AV, you'll have 5-10 people who are willfully not participating (some hide it better than others). This is clearly irritating for those who are actively contributing and is 100% a problem worth fixing. As I said, the change isn't perfect and will be iterated upon, but a lot of people (unlike yourself) admire the attempt at addressing the issue.

It's a question of is it worth it, is it fun, does it make sense? Not luck what haha??
Wpvp in Tmill has nothing to do with this and only happened because BGs where unreleased, educate yourself.
Also Ive already written the final argument to this, zone control needs better incentive.

Trust me when I say, wPvPers don't need a reward focused reason to meet up for a good session of wPvP. The honour rewards are probably a good enough tangible reward for them. The problem is that it's quite hard to organically find enough people to start a good wPvP battle. This is the 'luck' part I was referring to. Without some sort of event/announcement, players are just left to either roam or hope that people are at the EPL towers, for example. Instead, they've designed an event system (1 focal point every two hours) which will only serve to increase the chances of wPvPers finding each other. I promise you, irrespective of adding more tangible rewards, the wPvPers will flock to these areas for....... *drum roll*........ fun!

Also, of course Hillsbrad battles died a death when BGs released. The 'new and shiny' toy was always going to pull the majority of reward focused people away. But, there are plenty of people who don't care for BGs and either prefer wPvP or like to mix it up. So, for these people, these changes will be good (even if there aren't very good tangible rewards!!!).

[Jc473]

PvP towers on dead server will not attract players.
I came to TWoW only after class changes, because it's the main thing players want.
TWoW lost player base after SOD release and will lose more players when another Classic+ servers will come out.
If you are affraid of changes someone will take your place.

There are plenty of people who left who were dissatisfied with the lack of PvP oriented changes that the PvE side of the game received. They also left because it felt like the PvP server (and PvP content) was an afterthought compared to the PvE realm. So, these specific PvP oriented changes should signal that the devs do in fact care about the PvP side of things. Will this bring those people back? Who knows... but it's not like it's going to drive them further away! As for the remaining players, these patch notes are being very well received and will increase the chances of them staying on the server.

Also, it's worth pointing out that TWoW have released a whole raft of changes over the years including class changes, zones, quests, dungeons, BGs, raids & itemisation changes. Do you not think they will continue to do this? FYI - they are planning the next set of class changes which will probably come in 2024. Will it be implemented as quickly as you'd like? Probably not, but c'est la vie ...

[Burunduk]

Some specs didn't get changes at all, resto shamans for example.
So when you play this spec you don't feel Clasic +, you have the same gameplay, wear the same bis items and wipe in the same late raids.
We need real Classic + changes.

[Jc473]

Some specs didn't get changes at all, resto shamans for example.
So when you play this spec you don't feel Clasic +, you have the same gameplay, wear the same bis items and wipe in the same late raids.
We need real Classic + changes.

So, the aim of their class changes was to buff the so called weaker specs. They didn't want to introduce class changes just for the sake of change, especially when it's the hardest thing to get right in the game (e.g. Paladins). Why change something that isn't broken? Is there a problem with the resto shaman tree?

It seems you are a hardcore raider who is primarily interested in class changes and raid content. Well, fyi, the next round of class balancing will come and they are also introducing another raid tier beyond Naxx.

Please also consider that they have implemented a tonne of custom content which many regard as 'real Classic +' changes. It's just not in the game areas you would like.

[Burunduk]

Yes, there is a problem.
Shaman is one big problem.
Paladins got changes and now all 3 specs are playable, but shamans... hmmm... changes went in wrong direction.

[Jc473]

Yes, there is a problem.
Shaman is one big problem.
Paladins got changes and now all 3 specs are playable, but shamans... hmmm... changes went in wrong direction.

Yes, the Enhancement tree is a problem for Shamans, no doubt. Currently, as I understand it, Enhancement lacks an identity from an 'end game' perspective. It is obviously good for levelling but I'm not sure what else. To this day, people are still unsure whether to push it down the tanking route or not. The awkward thing is that people are using the Enhancement talents but are still playing like a Resto Shaman. I guess people are wanting the melee aspect to be more viable (dps or tanking) at end game.

[Bandyc]

I obviously play PVP.


Theres not only pure pvpers playing on the pvp realm. Going by a vocal minority doesn't mean the change is correct or good. Im not discussing this, I'm here explaining it to you.


Incorrect. People mainly play on the daily BG que. AV is also only effective honor method for short matches. How do you now know these things? Dude you're starting to get fucking irritating. Why do clueless people seem to have so much opinions to voice about honor and pvp in WoW?


You keep posting clueless replies it really tires me out hence I kept this so short and repeating myself again and again serves no point, again im not discussing im explaining what wont work. You just dont understand or dont listen.
Quote me in a month when none of these changes have been successful if not reworked. See ya.

[Jc473]

Im not discussing this, I'm here explaining it to you.

You just dont understand or dont listen.

Right back at you, pal.

Look, feel free to continue being a doom merchant if it gives you a feeling of empowerment.

The rest of us will enjoy these changes and future iterations on them, if required. By the 'rest of us', I mean the large majority of people who have provided feedback through various mediums (in game, forums, reddit or discord). As far as I'm concerned, your negative take represents the minority. I don't really care to convince people like yourself; I'm more interested in the 'neutral' people who read these discussions who could be swayed in one direction or the other.

This will be my last response to you.

[Akalix]

Now Implemented

• War Mode has been changed to give 20% bonus honor from all sources, but reduced to 20% bonus experience.

• Winds of Discovery event will begin upon the launch of our patch 1.17.1: Labor & Legacy which will provide 10% bonus EXP on Nordanaar and 20% bonus EXP on Tel'Abim, with new characters qualifying for a gift upon reaching level 20!

[Balake]

Results of the plaguebloom change


Plaguebloom went down slightly (10% chance from arthas tears in practice seems is not enough to drive up the supply by a noticeable amount), mountain silversage went up about the same as market compensation, elixir of mongoose price stayed relatively the same.

The issue of plaguebloom is still on the table sadly. Think we can see it added to hyjal (because felwood has plaguebloom, no reason hyjal shouldn't) and karazhan crypts

[Akalix]

Results of the plaguebloom change


Plaguebloom went down slightly (10% chance from arthas tears in practice seems is not enough to drive up the supply by a noticeable amount), mountain silversage went up about the same as market compensation, elixir of mongoose price stayed relatively the same.

The issue of plaguebloom is still on the table sadly. Think we can see it added to hyjal (because felwood has plaguebloom, no reason hyjal shouldn't) and karazhan crypts

I appreciate this data and the visualization element.

Definitely hasn't moved enough yet, I will be back with more changes for it.

[Vrograg]

Results of the plaguebloom change

REAL MARKET ANALYSIS With Vrograg Fishslayer!


I have data from as far back as december 9th, and the picture is even more bleak. Since December 8th Mountain Silversage is up about 50% and Plaguebloom is only down by 25%. So I agree with Balake's assesment that the price of mongoose has not shifted but I'd argue that a 25% reduction in Plaguebloom does show the changes have helped some. Mind you the intial post and application happened around the December 10th IIRC so this should roughly show how the market has reacted since.

[Lorencor]

Some specs didn't get changes at all, resto shamans for example.
So when you play this spec you don't feel Clasic +, you have the same gameplay, wear the same bis items and wipe in the same late raids.
We need real Classic + changes.

Turtle WoW is not Classic+. Turtle WoW is Vanilla+ WC3 oriented.

The server you want is not here.

[Lorencor]

PvP towers on dead server will not attract players.
I came to TWoW only after class changes, because it's the main thing players want.
TWoW lost player base after SOD release and will lose more players when another Classic+ servers will come out.
If you are affraid of changes someone will take your place.

Number of players has never been a problem for developers. Even with 200 people online, they continued to release various updates and improvements for years. You clearly haven't experienced this phase and don't know the server philosophy.

Do you think the name Turtle was chosen for no reason?

[Chudman123]

Some specs didn't get changes at all, resto shamans for example.
So when you play this spec you don't feel Clasic +, you have the same gameplay, wear the same bis items and wipe in the same late raids.
We need real Classic + changes.

Turtle WoW is not Classic+. Turtle WoW is Vanilla+ WC3 oriented.

The server you want is not here.

Devs do listen eventually and they have committed to class balance. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[Ataika]

Are there any suggestions to fix current mad consum prices ?

[Tmot]

Why haven't cross-faction bg been introduced?

[Tmot]

You can introduce an anti-AFK system like Alterac as much as you like. But until you solve the cause of the afk, you will achieve nothing. And the reason for the afk is the lack of morality. You try and do everything to win, but time after time nothing works out and the Horde wins again, and then you give up. Why do something if nothing depends on you? The Alliance will lose anyway, what's the point? But after the introduction of cross-faction BG, everything will change. Then the outcome of the battle will depend on your contribution! Look at winrate, it's some kind of joke

[Tmot]

afk = dismoral

[Tmot]

I want to answer in advance to those who write that it's about people who want to win at the expense of others, if you're so cool, then it won't be difficult for you to keep winning further with cross-faction bg

[Snoodydood]

I'm confused about the rich thorium vein update. initially the post said that their would be no more static spawn points for RTV and just make them share with small ones but now it just says that they have a chance to spawn on small vein spots. Are the static spawn points going to be removed in the future? or are they just adding more? Because the campers are all still in their usual spots every day.

[Akalix]

Updated again to reflect current status--more information coming soon elsewhere.

[Verdict]

Glad to see the RTV issue being acknowledged!

[Bittermens]

i said this at the gdkp thread but i will quote here

Most people buy golds because most stuff in vanilla is literally broken or expensive
Even back then getting 1000G for mount or 0.5 was a complete pain in the dick

Nerfing the prices to a deadline of 700g with rep discount wouldn't be bad since people also buys gold because of this small issue.

There will be morons that will sperg over "reee it isn't vanilla anymore"? yes but these morons only cares for PVP titles and Fresh, and look at what happened to the pvp server...
And said morons sperged over SoD but are now on GDKP mode and buying gold in wrath classic.

[Akalix]

List reflected to update the following change being implemented:

• Rich Thorium Veins now share spawn locations with regular Thorium Veins. This does not include nodes found in instances.

[Ibux]

instead of nerf'ing AV honor they should just make WSG and AB games quicker. if you only needed 1 flag to win WSG for the same honor reward. that would be a huge boost to honor per hour. and it would be awesome.

[Ibux]

• WANTED quests are now available each week, with a bounty being placed on both the most Honorable and Dishonorable kills in the previous day

How about adding a npc that yell in town sometimes when someone who is put on the wanted quest poster kills a player. "xxx wanted for crimes against the alliance! Sources say this scum was last seen murdering Knight-Lieutenant xxx near Frostsaber Rock in Winterspring."

[Zvyrhol]

instead of nerf'ing AV honor they should just make WSG and AB games quicker. if you only needed 1 flag to win WSG for the same honor reward. that would be a huge boost to honor per hour. and it would be awesome.

AB is already the fastest battleground because unlike WSG and AV you can't turtle it, no changes are needed there. Sometimes turtle game happens in WSG but on the other hand that means the battle is hard for both teams so the game is balanced and satisfying. The core problem of WSG is if the match is balanced and satisfying, the game punishes both teams because nobody will get bonus honor.

Your suggestion would make WSG very fast because balanced games don't happen often especially in the first minutes of WSG. You wait 2 minutes for match to start, gate opens and after 2 minutes it's GG in worst scenario because one druid was able to speed run the game together with powerful team. You think it would be awesome because you seek to get as much honor as possible but you forget that fun and satisfying game is the most important. If BG ends in 2 minutes after the start, it is simply boring, most players won't even kill single enemy.