Regarding warmode and non-warmode

[Xudo]

Sadly, current honor system rewards players who pvp a lot, instead of being good at pvp

If you will give gear to those who is good in PvP, they will be unbeatable compared to less skilled players. It is like giving more queens to more skilled chess player.

I thought about this some time. If pvp rewards are honor and money, then you should grant honor to losers and money to winners. So losers could faster get better gear while winners get profit from victories.

PVP rewards are meant to be a reward for being good at the game. If you really just care about having fun with world PVP, fight players of an appropriate level and don't gank. That way you can actually show your skill in a fair fight. But you won't do that, because you just want the free honor with no drawbacks.

Right now, there is only gear as reward for PvP. As I said earlier, giving gear for better PvP players is meaningless solution. They already good in it, why they should improve?
There should be some other reward for being good in PvP. I believe that worldbosses were meant to be so.

Actually, griefing someone else life is pretty good reward as is. The only problem that in current state of Wow, low level victims don't have a chance against high-level attackers.
I repeat myself: phasing world by level and limiting high-level enchants for low level characters are 80% of solution.

[Akos1896]

I'd keep warmode but would restrict it to be more fair while still remaining a drawback.
*Non warmode guy suddenly attacking warmode guy should not be possible, I agree.
* WM should only allow you to attack non-gray players.
* You could only attack a WM guy if he has at least 70 percent HP.
* Initiating a PVP should stop mobs which you were fighting with from attacking you.
* You could not initiate PVP in a group and you could not attack a WM guy who is already fighting a PVP.

Would still be punishing, camping and gank would still happen to a degree but would be 10* more fair.

[Darktifa]

So what I'm hearing is, "But my free honor! I should be able to kill people who can't fight back and get rewarded for it, no consequences! Why do I have to be good at PVP to get PVP rewards?!"

PVP rewards are meant to be a reward for being good at the game. If you really just care about having fun with world PVP, fight players of an appropriate level and don't gank. That way you can actually show your skill in a fair fight. But you won't do that, because you just want the free honor with no drawbacks.

You get NO honor from killing grey enemies
Wtf are u talking about..?
What PvP rewards?

[Akos1896]

I think you guys are exagerating here.
Getting honor and ranking up mostly via ganks is very hard and you are capped soon, maybe around rank 5 or 6. BG is just way more efficient to get honor unless you somehow GTA Stormwind with your friends or spend your whole life ganking.

[Darktifa]

* You could not initiate PVP in a group and you could not attack a WM guy who is already fighting a PVP.

World PvP is not 1v1

* You could only attack a WM guy if he has at least 70 percent HP.
* Initiating a PVP should stop mobs which you were fighting with from attacking you.

EASILY abusable
Do i have to explain how?

* WM should only allow you to attack non-gray players.

First of all, how easy is it to implement this in the game?

Twinks are still a issue
Can u get heals/protection from higher levels?

*Non warmode guy suddenly attacking warmode guy should not be possible, I agree.

It's a PvE realm
that's how PvE realms work
If you flag in a PvE realm at a contested Zone, someone unflagged can hit you
Same behavior for WM!

[Jstansberry]

PVP rewards are meant to be a reward for being good at the game. If you really just care about having fun with world PVP, fight players of an appropriate level and don't gank. That way you can actually show your skill in a fair fight. But you won't do that, because you just want the free honor with no drawbacks.

You don't get any honor points at all for killing grey level players. There is no reward for it other than schadenfruede. Though there is a way for players to get free honor with no drawbacks - it's called Alterac Valley.

I really don't think you understand much about pvp in this game, and that's why you think warmode is "unfair". You can get the exact experience you are looking for if you simply don't use warmode and type /pvp to flag/unflag yourself for pvp. You probably just want 30% xp bonus with no drawbacks though.

[Paw]

Let's burn WM to the ground! It must rise from its ashes. Initially I was present when it was borne ten-thousand years ago... Never in my darkest dreams had I thought it would turn out like this and the team won't change it regardless how much everyone cringe.

[Voidrever]

WM is a pve challenge with pve reward. It force pve player to engage in pvp. If u want juicy 30% exp pve, then turn it on and prepare for consequence. If u dnt want then just turn it off and only turn on by /pvp when u want.

When pvp server around, u will get what u want on that server.


30% exp increase and only WM player is your threat? Sound like a free 30% exp with no drawback to me.

[Slashignore]

Question: warmode is so you can pvp but also be killed by others with pvp on.
Was it ever intended that people just can turn off pve mode as they like - always get first hit (wich is a huuuuge advantage) and then after 5 min sit pretending to be innocent again. HAMAS mentality right there.

OR was warmode ment for people to have the risk of being attacked by other pvpers wanting pvp?

i choose to believe that pvp is for pvpers and if a pver wants to pvp he can go join a BG. or enable it for LONGER than 5 min + having the upperhand/first hit always! (my suggestion is 1 hour flag)

it wont solve a problem with a 60 attacking a lowlevel - that is not my problem. Its just a part of the game.
However if a 60 PVE guy suddenly wants to be a jerk too. Then if 60 min flag - will allow other 60s with pvp to actually take revenge.. Yes some of us level but have a highlevel main.

[Slashignore]

WM is a pve challenge with pve reward. It force pve player to engage in pvp. If u want juicy 30% exp pve, then turn it on and prepare for consequence. If u dnt want then just turn it off and only turn on by /pvp when u want.

When pvp server around, u will get what u want on that server.


30% exp increase and only WM player is your threat? Sound like a free 30% exp with no drawback to me.

Imagine if they had a proper system then we would not even need a pvp server ;)

[Voidrever]

If pvp flag for an hour then i just active it and act as click-bait at fp/ah npc and see how ppl react XD.

[Xudo]

Imagine if they had a proper system then we would not even need a pvp server ;)

Main difference of PvP server is that people on high level can kill eachother on farming spots and should be careful with AOE farming in the world. So the problem of overcrowding solves itself.
You can't achieve this on PvE server because unflagged can just vacuum clean some areas.

[Kefke]

Actually, griefing someone else life is pretty good reward as is.

Wow. Didn't expect anyone to come out and admit that they're just an asshole...

You get NO honor from killing grey enemies
Wtf are u talking about..?
What PvP rewards?

You don't get any honor points at all for killing grey level players. There is no reward for it other than schadenfruede.

Okay, nevermind. Apparently, everyone is willing to admit that they're just assholes.

See, I wouldn't know that there's no reward, because I don't go around bullying people who can't fight back.

[Luxlorica]

Warmode was designed to have, essentially, a pvp server running inside a pve server.

It was meant to give the people who want to engage in wpvp a chance to do that without impacting pve players.

It draws a line between them without having to shunt one to another server and it helps keeping servers looking full. It helps making the land seem active when players see other players doing things.

To big lie to wpvp is that you get to choose your fights.

You usually don’t.

The truth is that you can only choose your fights when you have an advantage. Being able to pvp flag and attack is an advantage. It lets you choose your fights.

Being a much higher level is an advantage, it lets you choose your fights.

Using warmode to level is generally a disadvantage. You seldom get to choose your fights. People with an advantage choose the fights, and sometimes they choose you.

There is no way to balance that if you do not have an advantage.

The proposition is to impose a disadvantage, a 1 hour flag.

The core concept of wpvp is that SOMEONE is going to have an advantage. And the OP proposes that the loser of an engagement should receive an advantage for losing allowing them to “fish” attackers out of PVE so that they can be farmed thereafter.

It invalidates the whole point of warmode by allowing pvp to impact pve. Its the same as when pvp players would position their characters in AOEs to flag pve players.

If you agree to a disadvantage for bonus exp, you may have to pay for that extra exp. It is likely that will happen at least once, maybe more. Or perhaps not at all.

You don’t know, because you will not get to choose your fights much of the time, that’s the disadvantage.

Its unlikely that devs will extend the ability to lure people into pvp to those to fail to prevail.

[Darktifa]

Okay, nevermind. Apparently, everyone is willing to admit that they're just assholes.

See, I wouldn't know that there's no reward, because I don't go around bullying people who can't fight back.

If you don't know about basic mechanics of pvp
either get informed before speaking or opt out from the discussion...

[Kefke]

So, based on the new information that there's already no reward for ganking low levels, I have a very simple solution. One week ban for killing players that are substantially below your level. No excuses. No exceptions. No appeals. Hell, make it automated, like the lockout for dying in Hardcore.

Instantly fixes all problems with Warmode by providing a strong incentivize to keep fights fair, and maybe teaches toxic players some manners.

(Or if you want a "gentler" approach, just make it so that you can only attack people ±5 of your level.)

[Paw]

Warmode was designed to have, essentially, a pvp server running inside a pve server.

Yes. The main idea is that you enjoy some quality Wpvp during lvling on a PVE/RP server. But its hard to make the right changes. The main idea is that we have an option to flag ourselves indefinety. Making it more complicated require a lot of logical thinking.

[Darktifa]

One week ban for killing players that are substantially below your level

"

[Kefke]

One week ban for killing players that are substantially below your level

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You lost the right to have an opinion when you admitted the only reason to want to kill low-levels is the knowledge someone else is having a bad day.

[Darktifa]

You lost the right to have an opinion when you admitted the only reason to want to kill low-levels is the knowledge someone else is having a bad day.

where/when did i stated something like this?

[Kefke]

You lost the right to have an opinion when you admitted the only reason to want to kill low-levels is the knowledge someone else is having a bad day.

where/when did i stated something like this?

Don't even try the gaslight card.

[Darktifa]

You lost the right to have an opinion when you admitted the only reason to want to kill low-levels is the knowledge someone else is having a bad day.

where/when did i stated something like this?

Don't even try the gaslight card.

I don't really know what the "gaslight card" is!
However, i have never said something like that
Can u please provide a link?

[Voidrever]

Oh auto ban 1 week if someone kill low-level.
...
That a nake gnome lv1 click-bait at fp/ah for u XD.

If u want some punish, make sure they not gonna be exploit by other player.

[Paw]

Changing the reward would lead to preventing pve NPCs to join the party.

Also Glyph of Exhaustion and Slow and Steady fusion is important.

[Darktifa]

Oh auto ban 1 week if someone kill low-level.
...
That a nake gnome lv1 click-bait at fp/ah for u XD.

If u want some punish, make sure they not gonna be exploit by other player.

You are replying to someone, stating that you get rewards and honor from grey players

""

[Luxlorica]

One week ban for killing players that are substantially below your level.

What you want is battlegrounds, where there can be some reasonable effort put forth to group people by level.

Wpvp includes everyone in the W, that's what the W means. Everyone in the W gets to participate. So you stand a chance of meeting anyone in the W who might be interested in K'ing your A.

You want there to be some kind of special circumstance to convince a majority of the W to leave you alone.

I know it doesn't seem fair, and its not fair. It isn't meant to be fair. You have agreed to fight the world. And when you made that agreement, almost all of them were bigger than you.

Honestly, why would you agree to fight the world if you only wanted to fight a few people?

If you only want to fight a few people your own level, give or take, that's battlegrounds.

If you want to fight everyone else in the world including everyone who is bigger than you. That's Wpvp.

[Kefke]

One week ban for killing players that are substantially below your level.

What you want is battlegrounds, where there can be some reasonable effort put forth to group people by level.

Wpvp includes everyone in the W, that's what the W means. Everyone in the W gets to participate. So you stand a chance of meeting anyone in the W who might be interested in K'ing your A.

You want there to be some kind of special circumstance to convince a majority of the W to leave you alone.

I know it doesn't seem fair, and its not fair. It isn't meant to be fair. You have agreed to fight the world. And when you made that agreement, almost all of them were bigger than you.

Honestly, why would you agree to fight the world if you only wanted to fight a few people?

If you only want to fight a few people your own level, give or take, that's battlegrounds.

If you want to fight everyone else in the world including everyone who is bigger than you. That's Wpvp.

What I want is for everyone ganking lowbies to get a ban, because MMORPGs aren't the place to relive your glory days of being a playground bully.

[Luxlorica]

because MMORPGs aren't the place to relive your glory days of being a playground bully.

You aren't wrong. But you also are, and it sucks.

PvP in general, and wpvp specifically, incentivizes that absolute worst that humankind has to offer.

It rewards acts of abject cowardice and ruthless opportunism. It offers dopamine and a sense of accomplishment to people who figure out how best to game the system, vex their fellows, and do it all in a way that leaves them untouchable.

Wpvp is not about attack and counter. It is not about overcoming odds or proving the value of heroism.

It is the polar opposite.

It is about whatever craven action produces the most suffering in someone else while leaving the perpetrator unassailable.

In asking for an end to craven acts of micro-tyranny, you are asking for an end to wpvp.

That's what wpvp IS. A mosquito breeding-pool for despicable human impulses.

And when you sign up to be part of that, to sit in that pool, I feel like you should be more honest with yourself about what you are taking part in. You are surrounding yourself with people who do these things.

But you don't have to. And that's what insulates it from criticism.

The game provides a cesspool of opportunities to be fodder for people who want to ruin your day. But it also provides a way to NOT do that. And some ways to do that in a controlled and, probably, more productive way.

Wpvp is not going away.

I can understand the sentiment behind what you are saying, but it demands an end to a lowest-common-denominator system, and there just aren't enough devs or time to replace a system that does exactly what it promises.

I think it would be much easier for you to change your thinking on the matter; to accept the Wpvp is a landfill for bullies and thugs and that you don't have to be a part of that. Also that it isn't going to change to accommodate you (or anyone else).

[Kefke]

because MMORPGs aren't the place to relive your glory days of being a playground bully.

You aren't wrong. But you also are, and it sucks.

PvP in general, and wpvp specifically, incentivizes that absolute worst that humankind has to offer.

There is a difference between "How things currently are." and "How things should be.", and that is why we have a Suggestions forum.

It rewards acts of abject cowardice and ruthless opportunism. It offers dopamine and a sense of accomplishment to people who figure out how best to game the system, vex their fellows, and do it all in a way that leaves them untouchable.

May I suggest professional therapy as an alternative to lashing out?

Wpvp is not about attack and counter. It is not about overcoming odds or proving the value of heroism.

It is the polar opposite.

It is about whatever craven action produces the most suffering in someone else while leaving the perpetrator unassailable.

That may be what insecure, fragile people have been using it for, but as previously stated, that doesn't mean it's what it should be. The fact that there are rules on the server about griefing and harassment should be a strong indication that, regardless of what is mechanically possible in-game, being a dick to people for the sole purpose of being a dick to people is no more acceptable than it would be in real life (which, in case there was any confusion, it is not).

In asking for an end to craven acts of micro-tyranny, you are asking for an end to wpvp.

Nope. Some people actually like fighting opponents that can fight back.

That's what wpvp IS. A mosquito breeding-pool for despicable human impulses.

It isn't, and if it was, that would be a strong argument for its complete removal. There is no need for any part of the game to cater to maladjusted misanthropes.

And when you sign up to be part of that, to sit in that pool, I feel like you should be more honest with yourself about what you are taking part in. You are surrounding yourself with people who do these things.

But you don't have to. And that's what insulates it from criticism.

The game provides a cesspool of opportunities to be fodder for people who want to ruin your day. But it also provides a way to NOT do that. And some ways to do that in a controlled and, probably, more productive way.

That sure is a lot of words for "I should be allowed to be toxic without facing the consequences of my behaviour."

Wpvp is not going away.

Not asking for it to. Just asking for toxic players to be treated appropriately. The server rules are publicly posted, and they prohibit both griefing and "abuse of game mechanics" during PVP. If people are having trouble with that, then clearly a heavier handed enforcement is needed.

I can understand the sentiment behind what you are saying, but it demands an end to a lowest-common-denominator system, and there just aren't enough devs or time to replace a system that does exactly what it promises.

Easily automated. Or any number of fixes that make it mechanically impossible for players to initiate a curbstomp battle could be implemented. It's a one and done solution.

I think it would be much easier for you to change your thinking on the matter; to accept the Wpvp is a landfill for bullies and thugs and that you don't have to be a part of that. Also that it isn't going to change to accommodate you (or anyone else).

I think it would be easier for people to just not be assholes if they don't want to face the consequences of being an asshole. Literally just takes doing nothing, which is the easiest thing in the world to do. Game's pissing you off? Go do something else. Need easy wins to feel good about yourself? IDK, maybe see somebody about that, 'cuz it's not healthy.

You can't really complain when people say, "Hey, maybe let's not put up with people taking out their lack of good coping skills on others."

[Xudo]

So devs offered additional experience for players in exchange for risk of being killed.
And now you want to ban those who implement drawback of warmode? You think this is fair?

Devs already said that they won't help warmode players complaining about getting killed.

[Turboman]

Warmode was designed to have, essentially, a pvp server running inside a pve server.

It was meant to give the people who want to engage in wpvp a chance to do that without impacting pve players.

It draws a line between them without having to shunt one to another server and it helps keeping servers looking full. It helps making the land seem active when players see other players doing things.

To big lie to wpvp is that you get to choose your fights.

You usually don’t.

The truth is that you can only choose your fights when you have an advantage. Being able to pvp flag and attack is an advantage. It lets you choose your fights.

Being a much higher level is an advantage, it lets you choose your fights.

Using warmode to level is generally a disadvantage. You seldom get to choose your fights. People with an advantage choose the fights, and sometimes they choose you.

There is no way to balance that if you do not have an advantage.

The proposition is to impose a disadvantage, a 1 hour flag.

The core concept of wpvp is that SOMEONE is going to have an advantage. And the OP proposes that the loser of an engagement should receive an advantage for losing allowing them to “fish” attackers out of PVE so that they can be farmed thereafter.

It invalidates the whole point of warmode by allowing pvp to impact pve. Its the same as when pvp players would position their characters in AOEs to flag pve players.

If you agree to a disadvantage for bonus exp, you may have to pay for that extra exp. It is likely that will happen at least once, maybe more. Or perhaps not at all.

You don’t know, because you will not get to choose your fights much of the time, that’s the disadvantage.

Its unlikely that devs will extend the ability to lure people into pvp to those to fail to prevail.

You can't flag pve players by standing in their aoe, i tried it doesn't work. All this empty rltalk about advantages, this and that, man i just want an equal field of !Opportunities!
I fight a mob with war mode on, i get low on health, a pve player walks by, sees me and decides to cast a couple of shadow bolts, which kills me ofc, the pve guy leaves, i resurrect and follow his trail and by the time i find him he is pve again and he refuses to attack me and declines my duel invitations. I call it "rat and run", and i say that it should not be possible. Unflagged blue pve guys should not be able to do that, because its not even pvp at this point its ratting (or griefing, whatever). The point is simple, devs should either lockout pve guys from wpvp completely or flag them for a few hours after they attacked someone out of the blue, if you want to fight then you get to fight for few hours so you wont hide away, or dont fight at all if you dont like tge long flag.
Any other point of view just doesnt fucking matter, i love wpvp, i dont mind ganking, what i do mind is when the game rules take away my opportunity for revenge. How the fuck is it fair that a guy gets to one shot someone with low health, run away and be safe again in 5 minutes? Thats fucking stupid, at this point just call it "free target mode" instead of warmode. All i want is an opportunity to fight back, without it its just "get-ratted mode" all the way to 60.
Basically wpvp for warmodders only or get flagged for an hour, make it 24 even, cause if you want to fight, motherfucker fight then!

[Turboman]

So devs offered additional experience for players in exchange for risk of being killed.
And now you want to ban those who implement drawback of warmode? You think this is fair?

Devs already said that they won't help warmode players complaining about getting killed.

You meant "risk being ratted by a guy that will run away after the fact and become blue/untargettable again in 5 minutes" ??? People aren't mad at being ganked, they are mad that they factually cant fight back, and i'm not talking about situations when you are lvl10 getting farmed by lvl60, i dont care about it, i just dont want blue players being able to attack warmodders. You people say just turn it off, but the same logic can be applied to you too, how about to turn you off instead from attacking others if you chose pve route?
Devs should disable pvp for blue players completely, and if they want to fight, then make the flag last longer, 24 in-game hours for example. But you dont want that dont you? You people just want to be ratting assholes without facing any consequences.

[Slashignore]

some people is mad about 60s killing lowlevels
Yes im that lowlevel at the moment (leveling) and i have been killed by several 60s, very annoying BUT do i want to punish it by rules?
Naa its a part of the game. And i might be able to take revenge later in the game.

However if a guy around same level attacks me suddenly because hes PVE and kills me.. then i want revenge or at least try, but from my death to i find the corpse and then him- it will easily take 5min+ and then he is behind is carebearmode/PVE and can laugh up my face and do it all over again.
That is why i/we ask for 1 hour Flag.
1 hour flag is not long enough to ruin their day but long enough to ensure i have a chance to get revenge and enough time to be an annoyinace for those who actually choose to go from pve to pvp temporary.

[Xudo]

You meant "risk being ratted by a guy that will run away after the fact and become blue/untargettable again in 5 minutes" ???

Yes. Exactly.

Basically wpvp for warmodders only or get flagged for an hour, make it 24 even, cause if you want to fight, motherfucker fight then!

They don't want to fight. They want to kill.

[Grin]

some people is mad about 60s killing lowlevels
Yes im that lowlevel at the moment (leveling) and i have been killed by several 60s, very annoying BUT do i want to punish it by rules?
Naa its a part of the game. And i might be able to take revenge later in the game.

However if a guy around same level attacks me suddenly because hes PVE and kills me.. then i want revenge or at least try, but from my death to i find the corpse and then him- it will easily take 5min+ and then he is behind is carebearmode/PVE and can laugh up my face and do it all over again.
That is why i/we ask for 1 hour Flag.
1 hour flag is not long enough to ruin their day but long enough to ensure i have a chance to get revenge and enough time to be an annoyinace for those who actually choose to go from pve to pvp temporary.

Revenge shall not exist in Turtle-land but having a day-long certificate to use the glyph of war for those who want to participate and disabling any flagging by /pvp command or the ability to hit an other person while playing normally would suit.