Hello,
I play on HC and currently am lvl 34 warrior. I've been a healer all my life and decided to see the dungeons from the other side - tanking.
I know the game mechanics through and through, all the tanking guides/threat generation and management as well.
I succesfully tanked Deadmines, Stockades, BFD.
I feel immensely overwhelmed by everything I have to watch and keep an eye on: nameplates, aggro on each mob, threat meter, my health/rage, healer's mana, CDs of CC'd mobs, CDs on my abilities.
I have few questions I would be grateful some experienced tanks would answer regarding tanking:
1. How to get around all those nameplates when group tanking? All I see is a mess of party/mobs nameplates and I find it very difficult to know who is who.
2. How to be not stressed about losing aggro? I feel like I lack rage to properly tank. Will going full prot talent help me? Currently I am full Fury.
3. How do you "look" at skill bars when a skill becomes available? Currently I just spam "sunder armor" until I have enough rage to cast it. I look at skill bar when Shield Block becomes available etc.
As a healer I always had much better overview of the battle, seeing what's everyone doing from distance.
I really enjoy tanking and would like to get better/relaxed about it. Preparing to tank Scarlet Monastery.
Thank you for any tips and best practices!
Naranu
Asking experienced tanks
Re: Asking experienced tanks
(This will be lengthy, but this is not a subject that can be given due respect in a few sentences,)
1: What's the issue with nameplates? You aren't hitting "V" and enabling health bars are you? Those aren't necessary. The normal player/monster names have the standard IFF color coding in this game (red---blue/green) so that shouldn't cause trouble. WoW makes this type of situation awareness somewhat easier to learn, at least compared to some other games where first-person perspective was the standard. There'll be an adjustment period coming from a healer where you're mostly watching health bars, less so the combat action, but no way of getting used to it except by doing.
2: A lot goes into aggro generation, more than can be fit in a single forum post. Here are some suggestions: You can keep your group back a ways from your pulls and backwards-walk your pulls as you bring them in, allowing you crucial seconds to build a threat lead. If your group is about to pull more enemies than you can comfortably hold threat on, ask for some Crowd Control, or off-tanking if it'd be useful--even telling the group to kill the offtank's target first, giving you time to build threat on the others. I remember pulls in groups that were under-leveled or under-geared where we'd ask for a sheep and dual saps so we could get through. Treat your group as a bag of tools to pick from--use what you have! Optionally, ask the group to hold off damage until you give a "go" command--this can be as simple as toggling on an "attack" icon, usually the Skull, when you want them to engage your primary. If you're losing aggro to someone who has good durability himself, you can oftentimes let him have it and switch to your next focus target so as to build a threat lead. This is where it pays to eyeball whether that Ret Paladin is wearing full plate himself or a bunch of leather. If you're losing aggro to the healer, you're probably either trying to tank too many mobs at once or happened to get adds just as a big heal landed (it happens--that's why you have Taunt). Delegate secondary responsibility: You don't necessarily need to chase down runners if you have someone else who can hamstring or wingclip or whatnot, ask them to handle it.
2b: Fury probably has higher rage generation than full Prot would, but the nature of the rage mechanic means Warriors and Druids always have some wind-up time getting going. Paladins are the opposite, with incredible front-loaded threat that tapers off over time as the mana bar starts limiting them. Best you can do on a rage tank is get in the habit of "saving" some rage between pulls and not using as much when you have threat and a mob's almost dead.
2c: It's okay to be annoyed at losing aggro, even when you accept it as "okay" like in the cases detailed above. It's like a healer being annoyed at non-full health bars. It comes with the role. I've been doing this a long time and part of me still gets annoyed if something flips, even when it's expected like from a memblur mechanic.
3: You get used to glancing at the action bar here and there, and over time you get more of an inherent feel and muscle memory for using your skills. I seldom pay much attention to health bars--my group's or my own--as a tank unless I take a big hit or if something gets loose and whacks the healer. Don't interpret this as ignoring them--just not constantly eyeballing them the way a healer does. You don't need a threat meter; over time you'll develop an innate feel for threat. Less meters means less junk to have to watch. I don't run any mods, just the stock install. A lot of tanking well is experience, and that experience very much translates game-to-game. I've been doing this job in these games since the late 90's. Don't expect to be great at it after a month or two. You've been getting the job done, so that's a good start. The Deadmines, level appropriate, is at least as hard or harder than any instance you'll face until about Uldaman or so.
1: What's the issue with nameplates? You aren't hitting "V" and enabling health bars are you? Those aren't necessary. The normal player/monster names have the standard IFF color coding in this game (red---blue/green) so that shouldn't cause trouble. WoW makes this type of situation awareness somewhat easier to learn, at least compared to some other games where first-person perspective was the standard. There'll be an adjustment period coming from a healer where you're mostly watching health bars, less so the combat action, but no way of getting used to it except by doing.
2: A lot goes into aggro generation, more than can be fit in a single forum post. Here are some suggestions: You can keep your group back a ways from your pulls and backwards-walk your pulls as you bring them in, allowing you crucial seconds to build a threat lead. If your group is about to pull more enemies than you can comfortably hold threat on, ask for some Crowd Control, or off-tanking if it'd be useful--even telling the group to kill the offtank's target first, giving you time to build threat on the others. I remember pulls in groups that were under-leveled or under-geared where we'd ask for a sheep and dual saps so we could get through. Treat your group as a bag of tools to pick from--use what you have! Optionally, ask the group to hold off damage until you give a "go" command--this can be as simple as toggling on an "attack" icon, usually the Skull, when you want them to engage your primary. If you're losing aggro to someone who has good durability himself, you can oftentimes let him have it and switch to your next focus target so as to build a threat lead. This is where it pays to eyeball whether that Ret Paladin is wearing full plate himself or a bunch of leather. If you're losing aggro to the healer, you're probably either trying to tank too many mobs at once or happened to get adds just as a big heal landed (it happens--that's why you have Taunt). Delegate secondary responsibility: You don't necessarily need to chase down runners if you have someone else who can hamstring or wingclip or whatnot, ask them to handle it.
2b: Fury probably has higher rage generation than full Prot would, but the nature of the rage mechanic means Warriors and Druids always have some wind-up time getting going. Paladins are the opposite, with incredible front-loaded threat that tapers off over time as the mana bar starts limiting them. Best you can do on a rage tank is get in the habit of "saving" some rage between pulls and not using as much when you have threat and a mob's almost dead.
2c: It's okay to be annoyed at losing aggro, even when you accept it as "okay" like in the cases detailed above. It's like a healer being annoyed at non-full health bars. It comes with the role. I've been doing this a long time and part of me still gets annoyed if something flips, even when it's expected like from a memblur mechanic.
3: You get used to glancing at the action bar here and there, and over time you get more of an inherent feel and muscle memory for using your skills. I seldom pay much attention to health bars--my group's or my own--as a tank unless I take a big hit or if something gets loose and whacks the healer. Don't interpret this as ignoring them--just not constantly eyeballing them the way a healer does. You don't need a threat meter; over time you'll develop an innate feel for threat. Less meters means less junk to have to watch. I don't run any mods, just the stock install. A lot of tanking well is experience, and that experience very much translates game-to-game. I've been doing this job in these games since the late 90's. Don't expect to be great at it after a month or two. You've been getting the job done, so that's a good start. The Deadmines, level appropriate, is at least as hard or harder than any instance you'll face until about Uldaman or so.
Re: Asking experienced tanks
Thank you for your valuable insight.
As for nameplates - I use them to switch targets better. I have trouble clicking/re-clicking targets when everything is stacked.
The next thing I have trouble with is giving orders to the group. Not that I can't but I feel uncomfortable shouting orders at players I don't know.
Furthermore I always feel like I'm going "too slow". I don't know why but I always get this feeling others are "zzz" at my tanking. Noone worded any complaints though. I want dungeons runs to be relaxed and not saying things such as "please do this like I want you to or find another tank". I guess I need to learn to be more assertive and give those orders and roles. As a healer I'm used to be quiet and reactive to what's happening. People usually dont know I'm there, I just keep them alive.
As for nameplates - I use them to switch targets better. I have trouble clicking/re-clicking targets when everything is stacked.
The next thing I have trouble with is giving orders to the group. Not that I can't but I feel uncomfortable shouting orders at players I don't know.
Furthermore I always feel like I'm going "too slow". I don't know why but I always get this feeling others are "zzz" at my tanking. Noone worded any complaints though. I want dungeons runs to be relaxed and not saying things such as "please do this like I want you to or find another tank". I guess I need to learn to be more assertive and give those orders and roles. As a healer I'm used to be quiet and reactive to what's happening. People usually dont know I'm there, I just keep them alive.
Re: Asking experienced tanks
Hard to click on stuff when it's all in a pile, for that you'll need to set up and use a couple of the targeting hotkey functions. Map a couple someplace you can reach when needed. Tab defaults to closest. Years ago I moved my default movement keys to ESDF from WASD to free up a few more buttons on the left of the keyboard.
Don't necessarily need to bark orders at people, but the tank job does often demand a pretty good typing ability. "Please sap soandso," "Kill this Elder Magus first please" and so on, adds up quick. That's part of why longtime tanks in this game usually hotkey at least a few of the target marks, lets you say what amounts to "kill this" or "sheep that" at a button-press. I also have an old-fashioned "/p Incoming %t" button I use so as to alert people (mainly the healer) when something's inbound. I'm so used to doing a lot of typing in groups that I seldom give it much thought anymore, but if you're used to saying few comments there's a definite adjustment period there. Good communication from the tank--making sure everyone's on the same page--can help turn a bad pickup group into a serviceable one, and a serviceable group into a well-oiled machine.
Some players will be okay with a modest pace, some'll want to rush, and once in awhile there's no getting around that friction. If you like, be up-front that you prefer the modest pace, if folks want to rush, your group might not be ideal. Put your foot down if you have to: Rushing and wiping means you take longer, in the end--or don't finish at all-compared to steady progress at a modest but consistent pace.
Don't necessarily need to bark orders at people, but the tank job does often demand a pretty good typing ability. "Please sap soandso," "Kill this Elder Magus first please" and so on, adds up quick. That's part of why longtime tanks in this game usually hotkey at least a few of the target marks, lets you say what amounts to "kill this" or "sheep that" at a button-press. I also have an old-fashioned "/p Incoming %t" button I use so as to alert people (mainly the healer) when something's inbound. I'm so used to doing a lot of typing in groups that I seldom give it much thought anymore, but if you're used to saying few comments there's a definite adjustment period there. Good communication from the tank--making sure everyone's on the same page--can help turn a bad pickup group into a serviceable one, and a serviceable group into a well-oiled machine.
Some players will be okay with a modest pace, some'll want to rush, and once in awhile there's no getting around that friction. If you like, be up-front that you prefer the modest pace, if folks want to rush, your group might not be ideal. Put your foot down if you have to: Rushing and wiping means you take longer, in the end--or don't finish at all-compared to steady progress at a modest but consistent pace.
Re: Asking experienced tanks
1. You can increase your camera distance by Interface Options -> Camera -> Max Camera Distance. Move to High.
On high distance you will get better overview of situation.
Switch between targets by Tab key. It will rotate over all your adjacent targets and could help to build threat on current pack if everything is ok. You'll need mouse only for clicking something specific.
2. Get your taunts ready to regain aggro.
You have 3 Taunt-like abilities. First is taunt. Second is Mocking Blow. Third is Challenging Shout.
At level 30 you also get Intercept.
When I lose agro and mob run away from me, then I switch to berserker stance(shift+3), use Intercept(key 1), switch to Defensive Stance (bound on 3 in bers stance and shift+2) and use Taunt(bound on 3 in def stance). It all takes 1 GCD. It is less than timer between mobs attacks.
When my Taunt is on CD, I switch to Battle Stance and use Mocking blow.
When everyting is on CD, I use challenging shout.
2. Some people can't be saved because they do stupid things.
Let them die and keep your healer safe.
3. I don't look at all. Make your keyboard comfortable and train muscle memory.
You can read how to organise keyboard here
You don't need shield block in low level dungeons. You spend 10-2 rage to reduce next attack damage for about 40 points. I think it don't worth it.
I tanked in fury and it was very inconvenient. I don't know why Bob said that you get more threat. There are not many talents to improve your threat there. Only Cruelty (5% crit), Improved Cleave and Death Wish could give you more threat. But you lose your utilities. Furytank is a thing, but for raids, not for 5 man dungeons.
Here are my thoughts about picking talents during leveling.
On high distance you will get better overview of situation.
Switch between targets by Tab key. It will rotate over all your adjacent targets and could help to build threat on current pack if everything is ok. You'll need mouse only for clicking something specific.
2. Get your taunts ready to regain aggro.
You have 3 Taunt-like abilities. First is taunt. Second is Mocking Blow. Third is Challenging Shout.
At level 30 you also get Intercept.
When I lose agro and mob run away from me, then I switch to berserker stance(shift+3), use Intercept(key 1), switch to Defensive Stance (bound on 3 in bers stance and shift+2) and use Taunt(bound on 3 in def stance). It all takes 1 GCD. It is less than timer between mobs attacks.
When my Taunt is on CD, I switch to Battle Stance and use Mocking blow.
When everyting is on CD, I use challenging shout.
2. Some people can't be saved because they do stupid things.
Let them die and keep your healer safe.
3. I don't look at all. Make your keyboard comfortable and train muscle memory.
You can read how to organise keyboard here
You don't need shield block in low level dungeons. You spend 10-2 rage to reduce next attack damage for about 40 points. I think it don't worth it.
I tanked in fury and it was very inconvenient. I don't know why Bob said that you get more threat. There are not many talents to improve your threat there. Only Cruelty (5% crit), Improved Cleave and Death Wish could give you more threat. But you lose your utilities. Furytank is a thing, but for raids, not for 5 man dungeons.
Here are my thoughts about picking talents during leveling.
Last edited by Xudo on Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: Asking experienced tanks
I said that because the question was asked about rage, not threat. Fury's decent for helping with rage starvation early on. I agree the protection tree is preferred for a tank long-term.
Shield block isn't usually that important for group content. Long run it has its place for pushing crushes off the table if you get to the point where that matters.
Re: Asking experienced tanks
Conserve your rage, if you are towards the end of a fight/pull, everything is going fine, then stop using abilities and save that rage for the next pull.
Use a threat meter, tabbing between targets mid-fight to decide where you are low, and which mob needs another revenge/sunder.
Unless instructed DPS will just target w/e alot of the time.
Shield block gives you a guaranteed revenge proc, it is worth it, use it.
If you hit a mob with a revenge you will not lose aggro 99% of the time. Or the mob will be nearly dead when you do.
While it's no consecration, Demo Shout does help with threat in AoE pulls with many many mobs.
Sometimes you will just not be able to hold threat on a target, in certain situations it's best to just cut your losses let it be, and focus on the rest of the mob before you lose control of more.
Never was a fan of the Fury bro tank, imo if you want to be a tank it's prot. or nothing.
Use a threat meter, tabbing between targets mid-fight to decide where you are low, and which mob needs another revenge/sunder.
Unless instructed DPS will just target w/e alot of the time.
Shield block gives you a guaranteed revenge proc, it is worth it, use it.
If you hit a mob with a revenge you will not lose aggro 99% of the time. Or the mob will be nearly dead when you do.
While it's no consecration, Demo Shout does help with threat in AoE pulls with many many mobs.
Sometimes you will just not be able to hold threat on a target, in certain situations it's best to just cut your losses let it be, and focus on the rest of the mob before you lose control of more.
Never was a fan of the Fury bro tank, imo if you want to be a tank it's prot. or nothing.
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Roflstoffl
- Posts: 21
Re: Asking experienced tanks
I am heading to lvl 19 and my first dm run as a tank (ever!) soon!
Should I use tclap only when fighting +3 mobs at once or can I use it when going 1on1 as well?
Should I skip Rend completely when in dungeons?
Should I use tclap only when fighting +3 mobs at once or can I use it when going 1on1 as well?
Should I skip Rend completely when in dungeons?
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Redmagejoe
- Posts: 1125
- Likes: 1 time
Re: Asking experienced tanks
viewtopic.php?p=29377#p29377Roflstoffl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:51 amI am heading to lvl 19 and my first dm run as a tank (ever!) soon!
Should I use tclap only when fighting +3 mobs at once or can I use it when going 1on1 as well?
Should I skip Rend completely when in dungeons?
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Reploidrocsa
- Posts: 499
- Likes: 2 times
Re: Asking experienced tanks
Another powerful tool, often ignored, is making macros for party commands.
LOS pull, everyone take cover
CC moon
Wait here i'll bring the mobs
Follow me close
Mana break for healer
And one very good macro to have in your keybindings is to mark current target with skull. 80% of ppl focus dps on skull targets, so you can build some threat on skull, tab target to other enemies, use 1 or 2 skills and go back to skull to give him more threat. I have this macro on my mouse button and it allows you to partially control the kill order, making threat way more consistent.
No need to articulate a single word if you have this chat commands, after all a tank is usually a leader and a shepherd, so it needs to direct their herd properly for a smooth run. No need to complain or enforce, just telling them with short instructions what to do and let them decide wether to follow your commands or not
LOS pull, everyone take cover
CC moon
Wait here i'll bring the mobs
Follow me close
Mana break for healer
And one very good macro to have in your keybindings is to mark current target with skull. 80% of ppl focus dps on skull targets, so you can build some threat on skull, tab target to other enemies, use 1 or 2 skills and go back to skull to give him more threat. I have this macro on my mouse button and it allows you to partially control the kill order, making threat way more consistent.
No need to articulate a single word if you have this chat commands, after all a tank is usually a leader and a shepherd, so it needs to direct their herd properly for a smooth run. No need to complain or enforce, just telling them with short instructions what to do and let them decide wether to follow your commands or not
Re: Asking experienced tanks
I also feel its difficult to get an overview sometimes, especially to aggro-overview when there is a lot of mobs. In TBC there was a addon named threatplates which made the nameplates different colors depending if you had aggro or not. Somone know if there is a similar addon for turtlewow?
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Reploidrocsa
- Posts: 499
- Likes: 2 times
Re: Asking experienced tanks
AFAIK that can't be implemented due to client limitations, how i miss the coloring nameplates based on threat....Klyvarn wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:12 amI also feel its difficult to get an overview sometimes, especially to aggro-overview when there is a lot of mobs. In TBC there was a addon named threatplates which made the nameplates different colors depending if you had aggro or not. Somone know if there is a similar addon for turtlewow?