paladin taunt and why its worse than you think

[Geojak]

ok.

imagine you are a warrior tank.
you got a rage-free taunt on a 8 to 10 second cd depending on talent point without gcd and not sharing cd with any other ability.

lets imagine the following changes:
1. you taunt now costs 25 rage
2. your taunt now removes your 5 stacks of armor penetration each time
3. your taunt now shares cd with blood lust
4. your taunt is now on gcd, and so is your shield block, so when you use taunt or shield block you wont be using armor pen or revenge in that time
5. your taunt requires now 3 talent points before you can use it

sound shitty?
but that is basically paladin taunt.
how so?

1. paladin taunt means u have to use seal of justice (costs mana) then use judgment ( costs mana) then juse seal of righenous again (costs mana)
2. paladin taunt removes judgement of wisdom on your target. so you misst out on that importnat mana regenration. if you dont have a ret keeping it up for you that means switching to seal of wisdom (costs mana) and judging losing even moe mana and threat
(1+2 combiend means fight with lots of tuanting requirred are mana nightmares for paladins)
3. when you judge your taunt, you cant use seal SoR or judge JoR for threat. meaning you taunt but probalbz just lose threat immideitly
4. paladin holy shield is on gcd, and so is the judgmement. this will make paladin tanks appear slow and bad players always needing an extra second longer to taunt in emergenz compared to the warrior that doesnt have this gcd issue.
5. this is just the cherry on top

yes having a taunt is better than having none
and i originally liked how the class changes attempted to keep the useless seal of justice relevalnt
but in practise and after months of playing with it. i can say, this aint it, its just not good enough.
it doesnt feel fair nor is it fun the way it is

i wont make a suggestion on how to change it, as i have come to the conclusion that is mostly a wasted effort. but pls devs, cant things be improved?

[Reploidrocsa]

not only taunt is meh. The lack of gear with def and SP (or the lack of talent to increase SP based on your STR) makes prot paladins squishy. The thing they're based on reflect damage makes them poor choices for single target prolonget threat. Also suceptible to mana burn and silences, apart from disarms.

Paladins can do fine in 5 mans, but more complicated content like raids or endgame elite quests they struggle a lot. At least they're awesome as healers and very powerful in pvp as ret

[Geojak]

Yes, true, paladin tanking has many, issuea. But I think mixing all issues together into one big whinning threat, which we have had many before (including from me), I dotn think it getting us anywhere.

Better to focus on a small case by case and explain why its shit

But thank you for mentioning silencing and mana burns. Those are also critically over lock huge issues for paladin tanks and non issues for rage based tanks.

[Tasman]

I see paladin taunt like this.
Baseline, taunting seal trained at 10 lvl. Implementation of it should look like that - when it is active on paladin, all his attacks (physical/holy) would generate 20% of additional threat and taunt target when discharged, also make it not remove on target effect from previously used seal.
As for [Improved Seal of Justice] taunting effect can be changed to 33/66/100% of immobilization for 1-2 sec when SoJ is discharged on the targed.
Improvements of prot paladin mana sufficienty and survivability, can be done, through reworking [Ardent Defender]. I suggest, make it like this - if paladin have over 60% of HP he gets 15% of all damage reduction and as bonus, this talent grants him passive ability that gives mana, when healed by other friendly target's spells. The amount of mana gained is equal to 10% of the amount healed.

[Dogfight]

First of all; a good post that puts our taunt into perspective.

Yes, true, paladin tanking has many, issuea. But I think mixing all issues together into one big whinning threat, which we have had many before (including from me), I dotn think it getting us anywhere.

Better to focus on a small case by case and explain why its shit

But thank you for mentioning silencing and mana burns. Those are also critically over lock huge issues for paladin tanks and non issues for rage based tanks.

Secondly; Agree with this. Take it case by case. Highlight the problems and if possible add a suggestion how to fix it. It might not be perfect, but having an open discussion around these topics might eventually lead to changes. I just posted a suggestion myself (viewtopic.php?t=5817) and more coming in the future.

[Nerasw]

Why no-one ever(at least i never read it) asked for any of your Judgements work AS TAUNT? Same 10 to 8 sec CD, mates...
Just tie it up to using Righteous Fury (and probably write it in Improved Righteous Fury talent) for making ANY JUDGEMENT applicate a taunt debuff just as current JoJ does... Same CD as (1 of 2) warrior's taunt has, less mana spent, less (3) talents to waste

PLs share this thread if you want to see things changed!!!

[Kairion]

Why no-one ever(at least i never read it) asked for any of your Judgements work AS TAUNT? Same 10 to 8 sec CD, mates...
Just tie it up to using Righteous Fury (and probably write it in Improved Righteous Fury talent) for making ANY JUDGEMENT applicate a taunt debuff just as current JoJ does... Same CD as (1 of 2) warrior's taunt has, less mana spent, less (3) talents to waste

PLs share this thread if you want to see things changed!!!

OH GOD PLEASE NO
You judge on CD in your normal rotation. There are plenty of fights where you want to do damage or apply a debuff etc without taunting in a raid. For instance you are in a trashfight and your mob is already dead or you are on a fight with Adds such as Noth and wanna do some dmg to him while you are add tanking. Clicking off RF and paying 30% basemana to reactivate it afterwards is not feasable AT ALL

The single worst part about using JoJ is it having a debuff attached to it. Meaning it removes your JoW or JoL from the target.

[Nerasw]

Why no-one ever(at least i never read it) asked for any of your Judgements work AS TAUNT? Same 10 to 8 sec CD, mates...
Just tie it up to using Righteous Fury (and probably write it in Improved Righteous Fury talent) for making ANY JUDGEMENT applicate a taunt debuff just as current JoJ does... Same CD as (1 of 2) warrior's taunt has, less mana spent, less (3) talents to waste

PLs share this thread if you want to see things changed!!!

The single worst part about using JoJ is it having a debuff attached to it. Meaning it removes your JoW or JoL from the target.

how about mana spent for 2 seals every 8 sec? (on CD as u have said)

[Kairion]

If you need your taunt every 8 seconds, i seriously doubt your skills as a tank.
There are a few fights that are tricky. Such as Sartura and the BWL drakes. But you got manaregeneration from other paladins blessings, a rets JoW potentially a shadow priest etc for these fights.
Or the trick big Manapot doesn't want you to know: conserving mana by not activating a dps seal in the downtime

But these are select few encounters. In a regular raid evening, i need to taunt on my pally maybe 20 times.

[Nerasw]

If you need your taunt every 8 seconds, i seriously doubt your skills as a tank.
There are a few fights that are tricky. Such as Sartura and the BWL drakes. But you got manaregeneration from other paladins blessings, a rets JoW potentially a shadow priest etc for these fights.
Or the trick big Manapot doesn't want you to know: conserving mana by not activating a dps seal in the downtime

But these are select few encounters. In a regular raid evening, i need to taunt on my pally maybe 20 times.

then why u so worried about "30% base mana" mate?
if u doubt about my skills i'm sad as myth raider after all those years
but man, how so experienced player as you could forget about existing taunts, like i.e. warriors'? same 10-8sec, noobclass? Doubt so, having more or better tools is never bad or sign of lower skill, it's always about how you can use 'em. So why some classes cant have tools?

[Kairion]

You are gimping yourself and your raid if you fire off undiscriminatory taunts every time you wanna apply jow or jol or pay a 30% base mana premium. with your proposed solution.

With the current iteration, you pay a price every time you actively taunt. By its definition, you should have to pay to GET the effect, not pay to NOT get it. Its absolutely hamstringing cooperation and group play to just blanket taunt all the time. It also dumbs down tanking on a paladin, because its a nonfactor what seal to use, as it will ALWAYS be SoR if JoW is already applied. absolutely no skill required.

You are turning tools paladins have useless by making SoR into the omnitool that is best for DPS, best for Threat, best for Taunting, and still second best for triggering Procs.

[Nerasw]

You are gimping yourself and your raid if you fire off undiscriminatory taunts every time you wanna apply jow or jol or pay a 30% base mana premium. with your proposed solution.

With the current iteration, you pay a price every time you actively taunt. By its definition, you should have to pay to GET the effect, not pay to NOT get it. Its absolutely hamstringing cooperation and group play to just blanket taunt all the time. It also dumbs down tanking on a paladin, because its a nonfactor what seal to use, as it will ALWAYS be SoR if JoW is already applied. absolutely no skill required.

You are turning tools paladins have useless by making SoR into the omnitool that is best for DPS, best for Threat, best for Taunting, and still second best for triggering Procs.

such a messy one...
there is no (you really fall in love and forget and again fall in love with that "30% base mana", whenever im saying about seal jumping manacost you just forget your argument, then you switch to "30%" again) premium, u basically switching stances, but lose not 100-75% resource like warrior or even more as druid, when switching your playstyles.

if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle? if you want to debate on why both ret and prot should use same seal... It's nor right place.

also SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar
SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here... JoR procs nothing on top of any regular Judgements. So Pls PLS stop cover your arguments against suggestion in multiple layer matrix of some multiverse paladin from different expansions/servers

[Kairion]

You are gimping yourself and your raid if you fire off undiscriminatory taunts every time you wanna apply jow or jol or pay a 30% base mana premium. with your proposed solution.

With the current iteration, you pay a price every time you actively taunt. By its definition, you should have to pay to GET the effect, not pay to NOT get it. Its absolutely hamstringing cooperation and group play to just blanket taunt all the time. It also dumbs down tanking on a paladin, because its a nonfactor what seal to use, as it will ALWAYS be SoR if JoW is already applied. absolutely no skill required.

You are turning tools paladins have useless by making SoR into the omnitool that is best for DPS, best for Threat, best for Taunting, and still second best for triggering Procs.

such a messy one...
there is no (you really fall in love and forget and again fall in love with that "30% base mana", whenever im saying about seal jumping manacost you just forget your argument, then you switch to "30%" again) premium, u basically switching stances, but lose not 100-75% resource like warrior or even more as druid, when switching your playstyles.

if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle? if you want to debate on why both ret and prot should use same seal... It's nor right place.

also SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar
SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here... JoR procs nothing. So Pls PLS stop cover your arguments against suggestion in multiple layer matrix of some multiverse paladin from different expansions/servers

Familiarize yourself with turtle specific changes please before you lecture me here.
The existence of Crusader strike makes seal change for only juding them less beneficial as on official. So you are looking to use the same seal for swinging as for Judging when just going for threat. Additionally SoR & JoR got massively buffed on turtle.
There is not a single gear loadout on the game where SoC outperforms SoR for tanking on turtle wow. Even with a purely physical build and a 3.0 weapon SoR wins due to it proccing WF more often. Because both its Seal and its Judgement count as auto attacks and can proc HoJ, WF, Weaponprocs, Crusader and a whole lot more.

[Nerasw]

You are gimping yourself and your raid if you fire off undiscriminatory taunts every time you wanna apply jow or jol or pay a 30% base mana premium. with your proposed solution.

With the current iteration, you pay a price every time you actively taunt. By its definition, you should have to pay to GET the effect, not pay to NOT get it. Its absolutely hamstringing cooperation and group play to just blanket taunt all the time. It also dumbs down tanking on a paladin, because its a nonfactor what seal to use, as it will ALWAYS be SoR if JoW is already applied. absolutely no skill required.

You are turning tools paladins have useless by making SoR into the omnitool that is best for DPS, best for Threat, best for Taunting, and still second best for triggering Procs.

such a messy one...
there is no (you really fall in love and forget and again fall in love with that "30% base mana", whenever im saying about seal jumping manacost you just forget your argument, then you switch to "30%" again) premium, u basically switching stances, but lose not 100-75% resource like warrior or even more as druid, when switching your playstyles.

if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle? if you want to debate on why both ret and prot should use same seal... It's nor right place.

also SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar
SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here... JoR procs nothing. So Pls PLS stop cover your arguments against suggestion in multiple layer matrix of some multiverse paladin from different expansions/servers

Familiarize yourself with turtle specific changes please before you lecture me here.
The existence of Crusader strike makes seal change for only juding them less beneficial as on official. Additionally SoR & JoR Got massively buffed on turtle.
There is not a single gear loadout on the game where SoC outperforms SoR for tanking on turtle wow. Even with a purely physical build and a 3.0 weapon SoR wins due to it proccing WF more often. Because both its Seal and its Judgement count as auto attacks and can proc HoJ, WF, Weaponprocs, Crusader and a whole lot more.

again you play your own game pseudochad
as i said before

i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar

but it was the only argument you have tried to challenge... I remember old video by laughadin in discord (yes TWoW) with showcasing SoC build, that lots of ppl still using

but get back to what is interested to debate with such an experienced player that cant understand or prove wrong:

• if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle?

• SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar

• SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here...
  JoR procs nothing on top of regular Judgements.

and keep trying to make a respect battle

UPD: i forgot about shamans, who talked about shamans? is there some minmax chat or what, why should we stick to "there always should be shaman", but again who the fck cares about it if you just against taunt changes? You can't even look at my profile to understand i'm here for long enough to know about cross-faction but try to pressure me with you mythical status of super gamer
UPD2: i hate this editor
UPD3:

The existence of Crusader strike makes seal change for only juding them less beneficial as on official.

what is that statement here for? what are you trying to fight, young man? CS only makes OLD JotC redundant but it's not a thing anymore, both Judgment's and Seal's get bonus dmg, so where the hell are you moving this convo to

Because both its Seal and its Judgement count as auto attacks and can proc HoJ, WF, Weaponprocs, Crusader and a whole lot more.

again we talk about judgements... and i said

SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything

about SEALs, you trying to be the smartest one but can't see?

[Kairion]

but get back to what is interested to debate with such an experienced player that cant understand or prove wrong:

• if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle?

• SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar

• SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here...
  JoR procs nothing on top of regular Judgements.

and keep trying to make a respect battle

I literally proved you two of these wrong by SoR vs SoC. Just because someone made a video on an old patch where SoR had worse scaling and WF did not Stack with Kings does not mean this remains true to today. Just because you don't like my stance doesn't mean you can discredit my arguments with "but someone else said"

And i'm stoping right here and making use of the ignore function. You don't want to discuss, you want to be right

[Nerasw]

but get back to what is interested to debate with such an experienced player that cant understand or prove wrong:

• if you want to tank - you tanking, why in the hell should tank switch between 2 different seals to keep 1 playstyle?

• SoR is not best for threat but i'm not gonna jump into SoR vs SoC holywar

• SoR is best for triggering as SotC not proccing anything and not to be confused with JotC and if we talk about Judgements here...
  JoR procs nothing on top of regular Judgements.

and keep trying to make a respect battle

I literally proved you two of these wrong by SoR vs SoC. Just because someone made a video on an old patch where SoR had worse scaling and WF did not Stack with Kings does not mean this remains true to today. Just because you don't like my stance doesn't mean you can discredit my arguments with "but someone else said"

And i'm stoping right here and making use of the ignore function. You don't want to discuss, you want to be right

proved by YOUR mighty word? no1 said about patches or existence of WF, but ye, you try to be right and your feelings got hurt again so you leave, hope for long
keep confuse judgements and seals and proving SoR over SoC in JoJ convo, best regards.

[Willatin79]

With all the power they have I'm still baffled as to why they didn't just give prot pallys a taunt. End of discussion.

[Grinis1]

I think they should change Argent Defender to a taunt while simultaneously changing seal of the righteousness to the melee hit table and change improved one-handed to 1 to 5% damage reduction

[Kairion]

I think they should change Argent Defender to a taunt while simultaneously changing seal of the righteousness to the melee hit table and change improved one-handed to 1 to 5% damage reduction

SoR does use the melee hit table. Its just never critting.

[Solwitar123]

I would just remove Improved Righteous Fury and instead double base spell efficiency.

[Omnix]

In my opinion they should just rework the taunt into the Improved Righteous Fury talent:

"Increase the amount of threat generated by Righteous Fury by 16/33/50%. While under the effects of Righteous Fury, your Judgement spell has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you."

No more seal swapping and allows Judgement to be used safely if not tanking. Win Win.

[Boras]

In my opinion they should just rework the taunt into the Improved Righteous Fury talent:

"Increase the amount of threat generated by Righteous Fury by 16/33/50%. While under the effects of Righteous Fury, your Judgement spell has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you."

No more seal swapping and allows Judgement to be used safely if not tanking. Win Win.

No, that's just as shitty. You dont want to constantly be taunting. What needs to be done is they need to just give us hand of reckoning and it's a baseline skill all paladins have. It shouldn't not have to be specced into. I had a problem today in AQ20 because I had to taunt swap but my taunt kept resisting. Turns out, I hadn't specced into it because I was running dungeons earlier... So what I was actually doing was just wasting my time judging justice onto kurinaxx....

[Grubi450]

All they had to do was copy paste the TBC prot design, not go half way and then stop.

Hand of reckoning is a small but vital piece that is missing.

This is also an issue I've seen with other classes, resto druids got their tree form which is thematic and cool, but no Lifebloom or something similar that would make it viable.

[Drubarrymooer]

I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I thought it was going to be another "this is how we should be like warriors" post as so many non warrior tanks post, but this is true. Gear and item optimization aside, IMHO, pallies and shaman need a 1 button taunt. It would be nice if both classes got a rework on block as well.

[Getplucked]

Literally just give Paladins a regular taunt spell, I don't see why they came up with this convoluted mess that requires a seal and judgement

[Nameis2]

So true, whoever in the dev team that thought linking taunt to JoJ is stupid; how stupid can you be to not learn from the mistakes of blizzard.

Also I don't get why they don't just make tier sets drop without stats and we the players get the choice to choose the stats similar to how GW2 does with many of its later gears. This will solve the gearing issue for tanking.

[Drubarrymooer]

So true, whoever in the dev team that thought linking taunt to JoJ is stupid; how stupid can you be to not learn from the mistakes of blizzard.

Also I don't get why they don't just make tier sets drop without stats and we the players get the choice to choose the stats similar to how GW2 does with many of its later gears. This will solve the gearing issue for tanking.

I mean, hey devs...Thanks for making a fun and free server for us to play a cool customer version of the game we love for very little pay and appreciation.

It would be awesome if we were all a little nicer to the dev's and gms.

Also, this is WoW...not Guild Wars 2. I wonder if they have a GW private server???? hmmm. jk.

Just be nicer. These devs actually listen to feedback. Its only slow because they have a million things to do and a very small team with limited funds. Idk everyone, but I'm sure some of the team has day jobs. Even if that's not true. Come on. :)

[Boras]

So true, whoever in the dev team that thought linking taunt to JoJ is stupid; how stupid can you be to not learn from the mistakes of blizzard.

Also I don't get why they don't just make tier sets drop without stats and we the players get the choice to choose the stats similar to how GW2 does with many of its later gears. This will solve the gearing issue for tanking.

I mean, hey devs...Thanks for making a fun and free server for us to play a cool customer version of the game we love for very little pay and appreciation.

It would be awesome if we were all a little nicer to the dev's and gms.

Also, this is WoW...not Guild Wars 2. I wonder if they have a GW private server???? hmmm. jk.

Just be nicer. These devs actually listen to feedback. Its only slow because they have a million things to do and a very small team with limited funds. Idk everyone, but I'm sure some of the team has day jobs. Even if that's not true. Come on. :)

These people are making plenty of money off the cash shop. Having them be somewhat competent to game design if they wanna bother with "vanilla+" isn't something too much to ask for.

[Drubarrymooer]

I mean, do we know that for certain? And even if that is the case, like I said, I think they're probably on the smaller side of a team and working to put a project together. Its offered out there for free and I'm only donating here or there. I imagine its the same for most. I just appreciate it. Guy with 5 posts comes in with insults out of the gate is a quick way to burn any project to the ground. Devs, just like players, and everyone else experience burnout. I'm just advocating to be nicer. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, or something like that. :-p

[Nameis2]

I mean, do we know that for certain? And even if that is the case, like I said, I think they're probably on the smaller side of a team and working to put a project together. Its offered out there for free and I'm only donating here or there. I imagine its the same for most. I just appreciate it. Guy with 5 posts comes in with insults out of the gate is a quick way to burn any project to the ground. Devs, just like players, and everyone else experience burnout. I'm just advocating to be nicer. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, or something like that. :-p

LMFAO just because I have small amount of post you think my complaints arent valid? what a fking shtbag u are, and unlike you I actually support these devs. I don't just play for free, and actually buy stuff in the shop to support what they do.