PVP re-work is overdue

[Kashchei]

The original vanilla ranking system isn't good and I don't think that's a hard position to defend.

The current meta for PVP regardless of faction is just to farm AV, for alliance its a quick win and for horde its a fast loss. In fact it's such an uphill battle of horde that it's considered a WASTE OF TIME to try and achieve a multi hour long win than it is to just concede and get honour for the loss.

The server has also been up for 4 years now which means there's no shortage of people in full GM / HWL / Naxx gear, and with no matchmaking the combat is painfully one sided.

1. this isn't good gameplay
2. it's certainly not good pvp
3. there's almost no WSG / AB and CERTAINLY no SGV

Ditch the ranking system and add an honour vendor
Add fashion coins + other cool stuff to the honour vendor to incentivise continued pvp once players are geared
Fix the AV layout
Rotate BG honour multiple times a week not just for weekends.

[Stinkyjames]

I remember on Qgaming, due to no existing 1.12 client at the time. Being limited to TBC 2.4.3, they implemented a ranking system where ranks were tied to HKs. It wasnt a perfect system, it was still grindy, but it sped up the path to getting gear, and it didnt force you to log in every week.

[Ghola]

I remember on Qgaming, due to no existing 1.12 client at the time. Being limited to TBC 2.4.3, they implemented a ranking system where ranks were tied to HKs. It wasnt a perfect system, it was still grindy, but it sped up the path to getting gear, and it didnt force you to log in every week.

only problem with that is it incentivizes farming lowbies much like phase 2 classic

[Heine]

Rotate BG honour multiple times a week not just for weekends.

Isnt is changed every day ?

[Jammyxx]

A good fix would be to stop decay asin never being able to lose RP a week, omly either stay the same or increase.

This would allow people to have breaks etc... Obviously keep the RP calculations the same with decay or slightly reduce it to 15%.

This would Also mean once you achieve a certain Rank, you would never lose it, so you keep the R14 title etc.

[Rejectedgalaxy]

I remember on Qgaming, due to no existing 1.12 client at the time. Being limited to TBC 2.4.3, they implemented a ranking system where ranks were tied to HKs. It wasnt a perfect system, it was still grindy, but it sped up the path to getting gear, and it didnt force you to log in every week.

This doesn't sound terrible. Maybe it would incentivize people to actually PvP in AV rather than trying to speed run it

[Element19090]

The original vanilla ranking system isn't good and I don't think that's a hard position to defend.

The current meta for PVP regardless of faction is just to farm AV, for alliance its a quick win and for horde its a fast loss. In fact it's such an uphill battle of horde that it's considered a WASTE OF TIME to try and achieve a multi hour long win than it is to just concede and get honour for the loss.

The server has also been up for 4 years now which means there's no shortage of people in full GM / HWL / Naxx gear, and with no matchmaking the combat is painfully one sided.

1. this isn't good gameplay
2. it's certainly not good pvp
3. there's almost no WSG / AB and CERTAINLY no SGV

Ditch the ranking system and add an honour vendor
Add fashion coins + other cool stuff to the honour vendor to incentivise continued pvp once players are geared
Fix the AV layout
Rotate BG honour multiple times a week not just for weekends.

I have been so annoyed at the state of pvp for like a year now. Ranking is cancer, you can't even get gear from PVP unless you grind honour for months on end. AV has been an absolute mess for ages. The BC honour system is soooo much better. IS it really so hard to add honour gear and maybe an arena system? I don't think the devs like PvP and sometimes it feels like the devs just want the PvP players to go away lol.

[Holyhorrorr]

Rotate BG honour multiple times a week not just for weekends.

That is actually what they already did. You have no bonus "weekends" on this server, you have bonus days.
Every day the Bonus day switches. (for example today it is Warsong, tommorow AB and on wednesday AV)

[Ephixa]

The only good idea here is adding fashion tokens to PvP vendors

[Chronoslicer]

+1 using honor to buy gear instead of rank sounds good to me, and I like the fashion coin idea too

[Kashchei]

*My mistake re; daily rotations, I have still only ever seen this referred to as "weekends" so I naturally assumed it was as such, but it seems people say that and just mean "in the rotation currently".

[Tudounaozi]

+1 using honor to buy gear instead of rank sounds good to me, and I like the fashion coin idea too

Agreed

[Element19090]

Would anybody really care if the ranking system was just removed entirely and an honor based system for gear was implemented?

[Xudo]

Would anybody really care if the ranking system was just removed entirely and an honor based system for gear was implemented?

It will devalue efforts of people who already did that challenge.
Farming r14 is a sort of hardcore challenge for those, who like PvP. If some people like that challenge, then let them enjoy.
Instead of removing ranking, it is better to add alternative sets of gear and alternative ways for getting it. Like arena rating in TBC.

[Remorsx]

Would anybody really care if the ranking system was just removed entirely and an honor based system for gear was implemented?

It will devalue efforts of people who already did that challenge.
Farming r14 is a sort of hardcore challenge for those, who like PvP. If some people like that challenge, then let them enjoy.
Instead of removing ranking, it is better to add alternative sets of gear and alternative ways for getting it. Like arena rating in TBC.

agreed that adding a ranked arena (at least 2v2 as its the most popular bracket on privates) would help pvp so much
especially making it cross-faction

the addition of arena in tbc was the right decision and i think this server should implement it as well to let people do something other than BG grind, it will also boost the server's online big time because there are a lot of PVPers who enjoy arena and dont care about BGs yet they like the feeling of playing vanilla

[Regaldandin]

Its not a pvp server. its an RP-PVE server

any sort of work on PVP should be like item 100 on the list of things to do.

PVP is the worst part of wow, in pretty much every expansion, and trying to fix it lead to the game becoming bad - lets leave it alone

[Stinkyjames]

I remember on Qgaming, due to no existing 1.12 client at the time. Being limited to TBC 2.4.3, they implemented a ranking system where ranks were tied to HKs. It wasnt a perfect system, it was still grindy, but it sped up the path to getting gear, and it didnt force you to log in every week.

only problem with that is it incentivizes farming lowbies much like phase 2 classic

It seems that rank decay is somewhat mitigated now atleast so its way less grindy.

[Noshu]

The original vanilla ranking system isn't good and I don't think that's a hard position to defend.

The current meta for PVP regardless of faction is just to farm AV, for alliance its a quick win and for horde its a fast loss. In fact it's such an uphill battle of horde that it's considered a WASTE OF TIME to try and achieve a multi hour long win than it is to just concede and get honour for the loss.

The server has also been up for 4 years now which means there's no shortage of people in full GM / HWL / Naxx gear, and with no matchmaking the combat is painfully one sided.

1. this isn't good gameplay
2. it's certainly not good pvp
3. there's almost no WSG / AB and CERTAINLY no SGV

Ditch the ranking system and add an honour vendor
Add fashion coins + other cool stuff to the honour vendor to incentivise continued pvp once players are geared
Fix the AV layout
Rotate BG honour multiple times a week not just for weekends.

some kind of rated pvp engame would be the best in my opinion, rated arenas perhaps.

As for the honor system I agree it's garbage. They should just add the tbc honor system instead

[Noshu]

Its not a pvp server. its an RP-PVE server

any sort of work on PVP should be like item 100 on the list of things to do.

PVP is the worst part of wow, in pretty much every expansion, and trying to fix it lead to the game becoming bad - lets leave it alone

Why shouldn't an RP-PVE server be able to have good pvp content as well? I don't see how there's any conflict between the two

[Allwynd01]

Its not a pvp server. its an RP-PVE server

any sort of work on PVP should be like item 100 on the list of things to do.

PVP is the worst part of wow, in pretty much every expansion, and trying to fix it lead to the game becoming bad - lets leave it alone

Why shouldn't an RP-PVE server be able to have good pvp content as well? I don't see how there's any conflict between the two

Because there is already a dedicated PvP server. The PvE server had War Mode, but that was abused and exploited by everyone, which was one of the reasons why a separate PvP-only server was made. If people are now migrating back to the PvE server, because the PvP server is dying, then I don't see why they should demand the PvE server to be made more PvP just for them... you know, as there is already a PvP server.


People are becoming really arrogant with their demands of the Turtle WoW developers, when I'm sure 99% of them haven't donated anything to even be eligible to demand anything.

Like that guy Regaldandin said - PvP is the worst part of WoW - it's unfinished, unbalanced and has no merit. It's why PvP servers all die or are horribly imbalanced faction-wise. PvE is where WoW has always shone and it's the part that will attract more people - creating new playable zones, new quests, new lore, new dungeons, new raids, new items, new professions, new class abilities. PvP is just a quick whim that dies almost immediately. The currently dead PvP server is a living proof of this.

I'm not against your PvP stuff even though I clearly said I agree that PvP is the worst part of WoW, but you have your PvP server, keep your PvP stuff in there. I won't play on the PvP server and then go on the forums and arrogantly demand that it be turned into a PvE server, because I, the random nobody, said so.

[Zeran]

Its not a pvp server. its an RP-PVE server

any sort of work on PVP should be like item 100 on the list of things to do.

PVP is the worst part of wow, in pretty much every expansion, and trying to fix it lead to the game becoming bad - lets leave it alone

Why shouldn't an RP-PVE server be able to have good pvp content as well? I don't see how there's any conflict between the two

Yep, and even the existence of Warmode and custom BG's means that the TWoW staff would like to appeal to both sides.

I think that if the staff was bigger in numbers, then having a dedicated PvP team would have been cool.

[Noshu]

Its not a pvp server. its an RP-PVE server

any sort of work on PVP should be like item 100 on the list of things to do.

PVP is the worst part of wow, in pretty much every expansion, and trying to fix it lead to the game becoming bad - lets leave it alone

Why shouldn't an RP-PVE server be able to have good pvp content as well? I don't see how there's any conflict between the two

Because there is already a dedicated PvP server. The PvE server had War Mode, but that was abused and exploited by everyone, which was one of the reasons why a separate PvP-only server was made. If people are now migrating back to the PvE server, because the PvP server is dying, then I don't see why they should demand the PvE server to be made more PvP just for them... you know, as there is already a PvP server.


People are becoming really arrogant with their demands of the Turtle WoW developers, when I'm sure 99% of them haven't donated anything to even be eligible to demand anything.

Like that guy Regaldandin said - PvP is the worst part of WoW - it's unfinished, unbalanced and has no merit. It's why PvP servers all die or are horribly imbalanced faction-wise. PvE is where WoW has always shone and it's the part that will attract more people - creating new playable zones, new quests, new lore, new dungeons, new raids, new items, new professions, new class abilities. PvP is just a quick whim that dies almost immediately. The currently dead PvP server is a living proof of this.

I'm not against your PvP stuff even though I clearly said I agree that PvP is the worst part of WoW, but you have your PvP server, keep your PvP stuff in there. I won't play on the PvP server and then go on the forums and arrogantly demand that it be turned into a PvE server, because I, the random nobody, said so.

I personally think turtle wow would benefit a lot if they gave pvp some more attention, more players, etc. Your opinion about pvp is valid, and you dont have to like pvp. I personally think its the best part of wow, and I would have enjoyed this server a lot more if it had better pvp content. Tel'Abim is a dead server, so there is no point of going there. Guess I'll just have to wait for epoch like everyone else who enjoys pvp. They seem to have given it some thought.

[Ragetto]

Like that guy Regaldandin said - PvP is the worst part of WoW - it's unfinished, unbalanced and has no merit. It's why PvP servers all die

No, that's not the reason. WoW's PvP gameplay is super fun (regardless of balance, because in reality, every class has at least one spec that's effective in PvP); it's just placed in a terrible context that doesn't showcase it at all.

The reasons are more like:

1/ The fewer people on a server, the less appealing it is to go there, unless you're an optimist who believes the developers won't let it die and will add unique stuff someday... but currently, how is it actually a PvP server? From what I see, it's just an underpopulated PvE server (with a "PvP" tag that intimidates some newcomers).

2/ The proportion of PvP gamers (often more 'hardcore') is quite low. PvE is more reassuring, easy, accessible, although very time-consuming (for those who want to play the game to the fullest). People imagine a 'kind and healthy' atmosphere (not necessarily correctly). So, the majority head to a so-called 'PvE' server, especially if it's populated. Myself, as a 100% PvP player (who has cleared all the PvE content), I hesitated when I arrived...

3/ The PvP features implemented are generally AWFUL. It's left with only the horrible stuff from vanilla (the ranking system is one of the worst imaginable). Moreover, there's none of the interesting stuff from later expansions (e.g., rated arenas) nor any improvement in wPvP. As mentioned earlier, it's nothing like a PvP server.

The only unique thing about Tel'Abim is that it's filled with experienced and super motivated PvP players... who have nothing better to do than face the same opponents in BGs, again and again (at 7vs5).

In short, we have to face reality: as it stands, Tel'Abim CANNOT work, so...
1/ We leave Tel'Abim as is, knowing it will never take off (hoping for a miracle).
or
2/ We merge it with Nordanaar and admit that Turtle WoW was never meant to offer unique PvP
or
3/ We add unique PvP features to make it a true PvP server. And we aim for a long-term active PvP population of ~1000 (that would suffice).

edit:
That said, I don't believe a server can be entirely PvP, as 1000 players wouldn't be enough to make the investment "profitable."

Furthermore, even for the players' benefit, PvE and PvP need to coexist; the content just needs to be more balanced. WoW remains a game where PvE is a significant component, and many PvP players enjoy engaging in it at least occasionally.

Turning WoW into a 100% PvP game would be an investment that even Blizzard wouldn't make. But there are "easy" things that could improve the game and benefit everyone.

People are becoming really arrogant with their demands of the Turtle WoW developers, when I'm sure 99% of them haven't donated anything to even be eligible to demand anything.

Even if it's presented as a 'please help us' appeal, donations are essentially sales in practice, and you don't pay for something that may (likely) never come.

For my part, I've been on the verge of paying for gameplay conveniences (bank, vendor, AH, etc.) multiple times but decided I would only invest real money (which I don't have a problem with per se) if I had the certainty that the server I was on wasn't doomed to stagnate in oblivion.

If they announced interesting PvP features, even without having developed them yet, then yes, I would donate... but as it stands, there's no point, nothing is announced on the PvP front, the future of Tel'Abim has never been more unclear. For all I know, I might not even be on TWoW in a month (which is frustrating considering the tens (hundreds?) of hours spent leveling and gearing up my character).

Personally, I could 'help' the devs if they showed some interest in Tel'Abim (and PvP in general), but otherwise, I don't see what justifies it.

[Noshu]

Like that guy Regaldandin said - PvP is the worst part of WoW - it's unfinished, unbalanced and has no merit. It's why PvP servers all die

No, that's not the reason. WoW's PvP gameplay is super fun (regardless of balance, because in reality, every class has at least one spec that's effective in PvP); it's just placed in a terrible context that doesn't showcase it at all.

The reasons are more like:

1/ The fewer people on a server, the less appealing it is to go there, unless you're an optimist who believes the developers won't let it die and will add unique stuff someday... but currently, how is it actually a PvP server? From what I see, it's just an underpopulated PvE server.

2/ The proportion of PvP gamers (often more 'hardcore') is quite low. PvE is more reassuring, easy, accessible, although very time-consuming (for those who want to play the game to the fullest). People imagine a 'kind and healthy' atmosphere (not necessarily correctly). So, the majority head to a so-called 'PvE' server, especially if it's populated. Myself, as a 100% PvP player (who has cleared all the high-level PvE content), I hesitated when I arrived...

3/ The PvP features implemented are generally AWFUL. It's left with only the horrible stuff from vanilla (the ranking system is one of the worst imaginable). Moreover, there's none of the interesting stuff from later expansions (e.g., rated arenas) nor any improvement in wPvP. As mentioned earlier, it's nothing like a PvP server.

The only unique thing about Tel'Abim is that it's filled with experienced and super motivated PvP players... who have nothing better to do than face the same opponents in BGs, again and again (at 7vs5).

In short, we have to face reality: as it stands, Tel'Abim CANNOT work, so...
1/ We leave Tel'Abim as is, knowing it will never take off (hoping for a miracle).
or
2/ We merge it with Nordanaar and admit that Turtle WoW was never meant to offer unique PvP
or
3/ We add unique PvP features to make it a true PvP server. And we aim for a long-term active PvP population of ~1000 (that would suffice).

edit:
That said, I don't believe a server can be entirely PvP, as 1000 players wouldn't be enough to make the investment "profitable."

Furthermore, even for the players' benefit, PvE and PvP need to coexist; the content just needs to be more balanced. WoW remains a game where PvE is a significant component, and many PvP players enjoy engaging in it at least occasionally.

Turning WoW into a 100% PvP game would be an investment that even Blizzard wouldn't make. But there are "easy" things that could improve the game and benefit everyone.

People are becoming really arrogant with their demands of the Turtle WoW developers, when I'm sure 99% of them haven't donated anything to even be eligible to demand anything.

Even if it's presented as a 'please help us' appeal, donations are essentially sales in practice, and you don't pay for something that may (likely) never come.

For my part, I've been on the verge of paying for gameplay conveniences (bank, vendor, AH, etc.) multiple times but decided I would only invest real money (which I don't have a problem with per se) if I had the certainty that the server I was on wasn't doomed to stagnate in oblivion.

If they announced interesting PvP features, even without having developed them yet, then yes, I would donate... but as it stands, there's no point, nothing is announced on the PvP front, the future of Tel'Abim has never been more unclear. For all I know, I might not even be on TWoW in a month (which is frustrating considering the tens (hundreds?) of hours spent leveling and gearing up my character).

Personally, I could 'help' the devs if they showed some interest in Tel'Abim (and PvP in general), but otherwise, I don't see what justifies it.

I personally believe tel'abim can't be saved. In my experience of playing on various private servers, once the population has declined to a critical level (like Tel'Abim has), there's no going back. Turtle's best chance of a pvp server would in that case be to advertise and then relaunch it.

They will probably never make Nordanaar a pvp server, and im fine with that. I think turtle should merge Tel'Abim into Nordanaar, and implement new pvp content on Nordanaar instead - like rated arenas and some type of concentrated world pvp area like I suggested in these topics:
viewtopic.php?p=90237
viewtopic.php?t=10356

1 zone where world pvp is active, and pvp content to work towards which doesn't include ranking through the most terrible pvp system ever made (that doesn't even reward good gear), would be more than enough for me to enjoy turtle a lot more and not consider other servers that do vanilla+ pvp better.

[Ibux]

they could have a seasonal pvp server and just dump everyone on tel'abim when the season is done.

[Lazarix]

truth is we will never get a PvP rework, it's not a priority for developers and probably never will be