Make every AP consumeable/buff also apply to Hunters

[Imag1cian]

So, Hunters are by far the DPS class that requires the least amount of consumeables.

The reasoning for this, is that a lot of buffs that benefit other classes, do not benefit Hunters, for example Blessing of Might. I feel that it should be justified, that Hunters should also be able to recieve Ranged AP from what I'm mentioning below, the class is currently competitive to other Physical Classes, but will on average still fall short to them. Bringing this, would make it much more balanced for other respectable Physical DPS classes.
With the addition of my proposal, of course it wouldn't mean that Hunters now have to use more consumeables, but it would allow dedicated Hunter players to put in even more effort if wished!

+ Elixir of the Mongoose
+ Ground Scorpok Assay
+ Danonzo's Tel'abim Surprise

% Consecrated Sharpening Stones (For Undead/Demons ONLY)
% Flask of the Titans (Optional)
% Greater Arcane Elixir (Optional)
% Juju Might (Tedious to farm, but does stack for Ranged AP)

- Winterfall Firewater (Does not stack for Ranged AP)
- Elemental Sharpening Stones (Does not apply to Ranged Critical Hits)

- Battle Shout (Does not stack, but I don't believe it should for Ranged AP. This would make the playstyle super degenerate, going in and out to get Battle Shout and also account for trinketswapping)
- Blessing of Might (Does not work for Ranged AP)
- Blood Fury [ORC] (Does not increase Ranged AP) : This would require AP increasing trinkets be fixed, as they currently do not STACK with Blood Fury (It doesn't add any attack power currently. Check https://github.com/slowtorta/turtlewow- ... ssues/3356)

My proposal is to make every buff in relation to Winterfall Firewater, Blessing of Might and Elemental Sharpening stones: Make them also increase Ranged Attack Power, which would be around 185 (+ Winterfall OR Juju Might). Additionally being able to apply Elemental Sharpening Stones instead of Mana Oil (Because this is not needed with the addition of Trueshot) Would also be super nice to see. Thanks!

[Balake]

I agree that blessing of might and winterfall firewater should affect ranged attack power, but not to sharpening stones affecting ranged crit. That's a bit too degenerate consooming and will hold hunters back from getting buffs to their own class, and especially kill using two handers as stat stick (instead of duel wield). I think that gearing style should be made more viable.

[Rat2156]

I agree that blessing of might and winterfall firewater should affect ranged attack power, but not to sharpening stones affecting ranged crit. That's a bit too degenerate consooming and will hold hunters back from getting buffs to their own class, and especially kill using two handers as stat stick (instead of duel wield). I think that gearing style should be made more viable.

Sharpening your weapon to deal more ranged damage also makes no sense whatsoever, on top of that

[Imag1cian]

Sharpening your weapon to deal more ranged damage also makes no sense whatsoever, on top of that

Sharpening your weapon to deal more damage to Undead and Demon-type mobs don't make sense either, but I can agree to an extent

[Imag1cian]

I agree that blessing of might and winterfall firewater should affect ranged attack power, but not to sharpening stones affecting ranged crit. That's a bit too degenerate consooming and will hold hunters back from getting buffs to their own class, and especially kill using two handers as stat stick (instead of duel wield). I think that gearing style should be made more viable.

The melee meta sadly already died with the addition of Trueshot, like indefinitely. It was a fun concept with the downtime on Aimed/Multi, but just not viable anymore.
Although 6% Ranged Crit would probably a bit overtuned for a class that can't hit glancing blows, yeah

[Xudo]

There should be LESS consumables for everyone.
The more consumables available, the longer it will take you to prepare for raid. You need more stuff to collect to be fully buffed.
As people said in different threads, amount of expenses and preparation is that makes the game tedious and less fun.

[Tawneyturtle]

If this goes through Battle shout and Might would alone be a 500 AP increase. There'd have to be some major tuning needed.

Hunter gets a lot of AP cause Agility gives 2 ranged AP by default and 1 melee AP for rogues.

[Balake]

If this goes through Battle shout and Might would alone be a 500 AP increase. There'd have to be some major tuning needed.

Hunter gets a lot of AP cause Agility gives 2 ranged AP by default and 1 melee AP for rogues.

Because of this, hunters are balanced in a way that a single point of AP is worth a lot less dps to them, than that same point of ap would be worth it is to a rogue or warrior.

For example my warrior is getting a 10% dps increase from blessing of might. Hunters will realistically see a 5% dps increase (Less multipliers, only one weapon scales instead of two, etc)

Note: I am however against battle shout working on hunters. It would be very scuffed and inconvenient, with battle shout having a 20 yard range, the hunter will see bad uptime and feel annoyed by it so in the end it's better than they're not affected by it, and they don't rely on it either.

[Gantulga]

They already deal insane damage due to Trueshot, considering how easy and safe they're to play, and also their uptime. Your proposal would also give them even more PvP burst and pressure.

[Ugoboom]

Big +1, this is a simple and effective change to hunters that won't really their power in PVP but will in PVE, where they really really need it.

If this goes through Battle shout and Might would alone be a 500 AP increase. There'd have to be some major tuning needed.

Hunter gets a lot of AP cause Agility gives 2 ranged AP by default and 1 melee AP for rogues.

AP doesn't do as much for hunters as it does for melee. A 2500 ap hunter doesn't beat a 1500 ap fury warrior or rogue.

[Imag1cian]

They already deal insane damage due to Trueshot, considering how easy and safe they're to play, and also their uptime. Your proposal would also give them even more PvP burst and pressure.

The damage increase would not be insane. 1 AP is significantly worse for a Hunter than 1 Agi is, the difference between the 2 being much, much bigger than 2 str vs 1 ap for a Warrior.

[Imag1cian]

There should be LESS consumables for everyone.
The more consumables available, the longer it will take you to prepare for raid. You need more stuff to collect to be fully buffed.
As people said in different threads, amount of expenses and preparation is that makes the game tedious and less fun.

But by making Winterfall Firewater available to hunters in terms of boosting Ranged AP, this would effectively mean you can actually get a consumeable in that slot, without having to tediously farm Frostmauls in Winterspring? I don't see the argument in this case

[Imag1cian]

If this goes through Battle shout and Might would alone be a 500 AP increase. There'd have to be some major tuning needed.

Hunter gets a lot of AP cause Agility gives 2 ranged AP by default and 1 melee AP for rogues.

I didn't mention battle shout for this reason, although like Balake said, 1 ap is siginificantly worse for a Hunter compared to a Rogue/Warrior

[Balake]

They already deal insane damage due to Trueshot, considering how easy and safe they're to play, and also their uptime. Your proposal would also give them even more PvP burst and pressure.

It's rare to use dps consumables in pvp (they mostly focus on survivability and utility. Popping a winterfall fire water after every death would be absurdly expensive).

And paladins don't buff people anyways

[Tawneyturtle]

If this goes through Battle shout and Might would alone be a 500 AP increase. There'd have to be some major tuning needed.

Hunter gets a lot of AP cause Agility gives 2 ranged AP by default and 1 melee AP for rogues.

I didn't mention battle shout for this reason, although like Balake said, 1 ap is siginificantly worse for a Hunter compared to a Rogue/Warrior

Wouldn't it be better to just give them Might and Battle shout over more consumables? Would make it less gatekeeping.

[Gantulga]

I just don't understand the purpose of the suggested change.

Hunters don't need more PvE or PvP damage.

[Ugoboom]

I just don't understand the purpose of the suggested change.

Hunters don't need more PvE or PvP damage.

Hunters do need more PvE damage. Check out the rankings on legacyplayers.info/ for more info. They aren't up to par with rouges, let alone warriors.

[Gantulga]

I just don't understand the purpose of the suggested change.

Hunters don't need more PvE or PvP damage.

Hunters do need more PvE damage. Check out the rankings on legacyplayers.info/ for more info. They aren't up to par with rouges, let alone warriors.

They're pretty high up there already. Again, consider just how easy is it to have high uptime and survive as a hunter compared to melees. It's a very chill and cheap class that still deals very respectable damage.

[Tawneyturtle]

I just don't understand the purpose of the suggested change.

Hunters don't need more PvE or PvP damage.

Hunters do need more PvE damage. Check out the rankings on legacyplayers.info/ for more info. They aren't up to par with rouges, let alone warriors.

They're pretty high up there already. Again, consider just how easy is it to have high uptime and survive as a hunter compared to melees. It's a very chill and cheap class that still deals very respectable damage.

Cheap class that uses Tea + Mana pot each pull 2x sharpening stones full agi consumes except the ones mentioned in the OP. Hunter is probably 2nd most expensesive class after Warrior and does way less dmg in pve.

[Ugoboom]

Warrior tank is the most expensive, but DPS Warrior is rather cheap as flasks aren't mandatory and are rather poor price/performance if you aren't pulling threat on trash. So i usually went without it.

MCP spellret definitely takes the cake on most expensive consumer since you do full phys+spell consumes ontop of a spell flask ontop of potting ontop of MCP... hyrbrid ret is cheaper but still probably the most expensive.

Then feral which is just phys consumes and batteries, then potting flasked meme casters who need to constantly mana pot the entire raid, then maybe no flask hunters and warriors alongside flasked casters that dont chug pots and flasked healers that do. Unflasked low pot healers definitely the cheapest.

[Imag1cian]

Hunters do need more PvE damage. Check out the rankings on legacyplayers.info/ for more info. They aren't up to par with rouges, let alone warriors.

They're pretty high up there already. Again, consider just how easy is it to have high uptime and survive as a hunter compared to melees. It's a very chill and cheap class that still deals very respectable damage.

Cheap class that uses Tea + Mana pot each pull 2x sharpening stones full agi consumes except the ones mentioned in the OP. Hunter is probably 2nd most expensesive class after Warrior and does way less dmg in pve.

Actually we don't use Manapots anymore (Only if we do the sweaty Arcane/Multi/Serpent rotation).
All a hunter really needs to bring for Naxx would be 10 Consecration Stones for a 3-4 hour run, Mongoose, Scorpok and Danonzo's- Juju Might being optional

[Ugoboom]

They're pretty high up there already. Again, consider just how easy is it to have high uptime and survive as a hunter compared to melees. It's a very chill and cheap class that still deals very respectable damage.

... have you ever played dw fury warrior? Such a super chill and ez class, doing 90% of your potential dps is dead easy. And its the top dps. Then slam fury warrior is way way harder with watching the swing timer and memorizing mechanics to know when you need to move.... and you are rewarded with a 10-20% dps loss.

Don't act like difficulty is rewarded with higher dps.

[Gantulga]

Yeah fury warriors are busted. I don't think we should bring everybody to their level.

[Rokit]

+1 "Attack Power" buffs should definitely do away with the Ranged / Melee divide.

Anything tied to weapon strikes should not.

[Xudo]

There should be LESS consumables for everyone.
The more consumables available, the longer it will take you to prepare for raid. You need more stuff to collect to be fully buffed.
As people said in different threads, amount of expenses and preparation is that makes the game tedious and less fun.

But by making Winterfall Firewater available to hunters in terms of boosting Ranged AP, this would effectively mean you can actually get a consumeable in that slot, without having to tediously farm Frostmauls in Winterspring? I don't see the argument in this case

If you add ranged AP to Firewater, you will end up farming both: Juju Might AND Winterfall Firewater. Because there are no "slots". You will use all of them. And your raid/class leader will require using both of them.

[Balake]

If you add ranged AP to Firewater, you will end up farming both: Juju Might AND Winterfall Firewater. Because there are no "slots". You will use all of them. And your raid/class leader will require using both of them.

It's common information that they don't stack

[Geojak]

Pre aq40 and naxx gear, I see hunter all the time topping dps meters by good margin and are most present class in the top 5 of the meter.

Just saying, don't only take naxx gear bis into account, trueshot made a huge meta change difference. Hunters aren't underdogs on twow

[Imag1cian]

There should be LESS consumables for everyone.
The more consumables available, the longer it will take you to prepare for raid. You need more stuff to collect to be fully buffed.
As people said in different threads, amount of expenses and preparation is that makes the game tedious and less fun.

But by making Winterfall Firewater available to hunters in terms of boosting Ranged AP, this would effectively mean you can actually get a consumeable in that slot, without having to tediously farm Frostmauls in Winterspring? I don't see the argument in this case

If you add ranged AP to Firewater, you will end up farming both: Juju Might AND Winterfall Firewater. Because there are no "slots". You will use all of them. And your raid/class leader will require using both of them.

Winterfall Firewater and Juju Might do not stack, which isn't a bug. (They don't stack for other physical classes)

[Imag1cian]

Pre aq40 and naxx gear, I see hunter all the time topping dps meters by good margin and are most present class in the top 5 of the meter.

Just saying, don't only take naxx gear bis into account, trueshot made a huge meta change difference. Hunters aren't underdogs on twow

Rogues/Hunters will usually get the advantage over warriors in worse gear, since they do not scale as hard as Fury Warriors, and again they are also super buff independant.
A lot of fights will generally just favor ranged DPS, and is not a class balance issue. It can also be down to skill issue, since the skill ceiling for Hunter is easier to reach compared to a Warrior.
If you look at the Legacyplayers ranking, you can see that Warriors/Rogues still dominate the meters in other raids, whereas the top Hunters usually fall behind most of them.
Hunters don't require much gear to do good DPS with, since they just need to aim for the 9% hit, and not have to worry about glancing blows or dual wield miss chance.

MC does not have any logs, although this by design would have Rogues/Warriors in the top rankings, with Hunters falling short.
BWL consists of ONLY warriors/rogues, the first visible Hunter being in 80th.
AQ40 is dominated by Mages, then warriors (And 2-3 rogues).
Naxxramas is dominated by Warriors/Mages and a few rogues. (With rogues having the slight upper hand over Hunters)

Again, Winterfall Firewater (-5 from Juju Might), Blessing of Might (155), Blood Fury (25% Base) and other small buffs like that (I don't believe Battle Shout should follow this), would not suddenly make Hunters better than the mentioned classes above, but would make them be 1:1 competitors with the right player piloting the class

[Ninoa]

Pre aq40 and naxx gear, I see hunter all the time topping dps meters by good margin and are most present class in the top 5 of the meter.

Just saying, don't only take naxx gear bis into account, trueshot made a huge meta change difference. Hunters aren't underdogs on twow

That's because hunters don't scale well with gear, even with trueshot. As soon as other dps classes get geared up post BWL, hunters start to fall behind. The removal of world buffs probably closed the gap just as much as the introduction of trueshot did, if not more. For that reason, it wouldn't be insanely unreasonable to let BOM and other small buffs affect hunters too. It also wouldn't affect pvp too much where hunters do pull big numbers.

[Ninoa]

Shameless bump to this thread if the juju might is getting a nerf.

[Imag1cian]

I really hope this gets taken into consideration now

[Imag1cian]

another bump.

[Trymv1]

Then slam fury warrior is way way harder with watching the swing timer and memorizing mechanics to know when you need to move.... and you are rewarded with a 10-20% dps loss.

PTSD of WoD when Empowered Seal Twisting Ret was spastic button pressing rotation to upkeep and was like 10% better than the Final Verdict option which was like minimal gameplay by comparison.

Then people cried Twisting was too hard so Blizz buffed Verdict to where it was just flat-out better than Twisting and all the players who had put in the effort were like 'uh, what.'

[Mjnumber23]

Now I came back and read this post. I think Zoomer is completely right.

Please take in consideration as hunter is no where near war/mage/rog in the raids.

Those buffs won't affect pvp and solo content anyways.