It's time to make raiding more appealing to people.

[Shroudedsoul]

Until buffs persist after death, getting to the raid entrance is easier, and there's a portal to each boss after a wipe I don't see raiding being more widely appealing. Games like ff14 solved this issue while not even retail WoW has. I don't think the TurtleWoW client can make such additions/changes as it doesn't even exist on retail to take from.

Best bet is just getting into a guild.

Though personally I don't like 40 man raids or the such. 10 or 15 man is more fun for me as every member matters more.

[Drubarrymooer]

Third reason is your raiding culture. You guys don't allow suboptimal specs.

Lol what?!?! We literally have multiple "meme" spec raiders, even in Naxx. Heck, a melee hunter recently even started raiding with us. I think the only spec we "frown" upon is prot pally and even then, at least in BWG, I know we're being more open to the idea. But not allowing suboptimal specs? I was bottom DPS as feral last summer and I worked my way up to one of the most geared ferals on the server. I'm not the best DPS or tank and that's due to my lack of skill. But I've never once been discouraged from raiding.

Until buffs persist after death

Yes please!! . Or at least potions.

[Kairion]

Look at it this way: If people wouldn't NEED to do BWL/AQ40 for that 1-2 elusive items, they'd have more time to do other content that's fun and they do it for fun, not for items.

We both know raid attendance among people who got all their items massively drops. Expect the raiders who raid for fun to have to carry an ever increasing amount of badly geared alts if people who get their chase items quicker and loose the reason to raidlog on their mains

[Tawneyturtle]

chicken or the egg argument for me. I got fortunate enough to get BWL Trinket very early on on my mage and I still kept joining to help my first guild here every week because I enjoyed the raid and the company. On my warrior I've been raiding for months on and on for DFT and each raid feels like a chore, just powering through.

[Kairion]

chicken or the egg argument for me. I got fortunate enough to get BWL Trinket very early on on my mage and I still kept joining to help my first guild here every week because I enjoyed the raid and the company. On my warrior I've been raiding for months on and on for DFT and each raid is bleak and hollow.

Not really, people stop playing when they are "done" with something. Every raidleader in existence will confirm to you that at least half the raid is expressly motivated by gear and will not show up if there is no loot to be gained.

Case in point, you say yourself raiding on warrior feels hollow. Would 2% more hitchance and a bit of Attackpower really make it enjoyable again? Nope, you would be done with that character or that raid. With a token system you ENSURE a deadline for everyone. And in my opinion it could also lead to a more frustrating environment where the guild will catch on to the fact people have the tokens as fallback.

"Well you can get your gear via tokens, any dropped DFT is now tankprio" doesn't really sound enticing for melee dps if you ask me. It completely kills the joy of seeing a coveted item finally drop

[Tawneyturtle]

I edited a bit cause I realised I was being melodramatic, I personally found that my favourite feature from retail wow in the recent years was The Great Vault, which lets you get 1 random item weekly depending on the content you were doing.

If the gearing is completed faster, then less people have to do the raid. That was my original point at the start. We are going to get 2 MORE raids, do you honestly think people won't drop current raids for it? Or If someone right now raids MC Wednesday BWL Thursday AQ40 Friday and Nax saturday they will also do the 2 new raids on Sunday and Monday? No, people want to move on but can't because their guild has dozens of people waiting for 1 flimsy item. I think turtle should strive to let players drop early raids and not have each weekday be dedicated for 1. I think BWL shouldn't be raided as much as it is now exactly to avoid people burning out from the game and other raids in general. Let BWL and MC be something people can pug themselves and not have it be a requirement to have a raid leader and loot council lead.

Create an environment where officers and raid leaders don't become a daytime job to manage all 7 raids for. And let the content be not gatekept by time and extreme punishment from wiping so it may be pugged with ease up to AQ40.

[Tawneyturtle]

I strongly believe the 2 new raids will either be a pushover in which case this will happen just for the new raids, but if it's difficult officers will be exhausted even further and might lead to new people having to step up or a few guilds may just lose officers in the next patch.

[Kairion]

Totally agree with you in the sense that raiding MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx & Emerald dream every week will burn players out extremely quickly. But its a matter of allocating your time. Most people don't go for rank 14 because they are unwilling to commit that amount of time with no break.

But raiding doesn't force you to do every single raid every week. If you want your items quicker, sure you empty everything, but the game doesn't lower the dropchance for DFT if you didn't clear BWL last week. So it is perfectly possible to step away from a raid and focus on other things to do and come back reinvigorated.

Ensuring people are done with one of the raids after X ideas will not make this any better, people will force themselves regardless - maybe even more with the finishing line in sight.

Thats why i would focus on making the consumables less of a chore instead of "fast tracking the loot"

[Ugoboom]

Totally agree with you in the sense that raiding MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx & Emerald dream every week will burn players out extremely quickly. But its a matter of allocating your time. Most people don't go for rank 14 because they are unwilling to commit that amount of time with no break.

But raiding doesn't force you to do every single raid every week. If you want your items quicker, sure you empty everything, but the game doesn't lower the dropchance for DFT if you didn't clear BWL last week. So it is perfectly possible to step away from a raid and focus on other things to do and come back reinvigorated.

Ensuring people are done with one of the raids after X ideas will not make this any better, people will force themselves regardless - maybe even more with the finishing line in sight.

Thats why i would focus on making the consumables less of a chore instead of "fast tracking the loot"

This is 100% true if we're talking LFR, where yeah you can dip in and out to any raid at any pace ez gg.

But guilds need momentum to continue operating and of course they will prio loot to people who are reliable and show up to all the raids. This cooreces or forces a lot of people to do a looooot more raids than they would before, hence the extreme burnout of old wow raiding for anyone that isnt the utmost degenerate.

It's just kind of a fundamental problem with how management of guilds and raid teams is. Replacing people is heavy friction.

Design that considers that 1 player will be doing 5+ raids a week should be the focus. Whatever helps prevent burnout for this, without otherwise damaging the game, is good

[Xudo]

This is 100% true if we're talking LFR, where yeah you can dip in and out to any raid at any pace ez gg.

But guilds need momentum to continue operating and of course they will prio loot to people who are reliable and show up to all the raids. This cooreces or forces a lot of people to do a looooot more raids than they would before, hence the extreme burnout of old wow raiding for anyone that isnt the utmost degenerate.

It's just kind of a fundamental problem with how management of guilds and raid teams is. Replacing people is heavy friction.

Design that considers that 1 player will be doing 5+ raids a week should be the focus. Whatever helps prevent burnout for this, without otherwise damaging the game, is good

I agree that raids should not be easy go easy out LFR with randoms. People should make long term social connections in game. BWL is a type of raid where coordination is important. Otherwise it is hell.

I don't agree with idea of "average raider should do 5 raids in a week". Most real world activities feature 2-3 times a week 1-2 hour per session schedule. If you go gym 5 times a week for 2 hour each session, after a year you end up muscled like Dwayne Johnson.
If you force players to do 5 raids in a week, you probably won't make raiding more appealing. It will be like farming r14.

Let the people go if they tired. Say "good luck, thank you" when they leave. You don't have to bind people endlessly by forcing to farm some specific rare item. They will stay if you have cool team. They will quit asap if you are a-hole.

Imagine that people are bound to your raid only because of items. (If it is true, you probably already failed, but anyway).
As a raid leader you should know how long average raider is active.
With this information you can plan recruitment and prepare replacement before you actually need it.
Imagine some raider which wants only DFT. He visit every raid and pretty tired of it, but he has specific goal. He probably uninstall the game when this happen. You don't know when DFT will drop, so you don't know when he will leave. You can get DFT in two raids in a row and could lose 2 valuable members in a row if this item is the only thing which bind them to your raid.
With badges system you can be sure that this raider is with you for half of the year. After a 4 months you can start recruit replacement.
Some specific raider can skip some raids when he have important IRL business. And he won't be disappointed of what DFT dropped without him.
Things get healthier and more predictable with badges.

I also want to point out that Atiesh is made out of 40 splinters with dropchance of 30%. It is not 6% drop like eye of sulfuras and bindings of windseeker.

[Tawneyturtle]

I agree that raids should not be easy go easy out LFR with randoms. People should make long term social connections in game. BWL is a type of raid where coordination is important. Otherwise it is hell.

I don't agree with idea of "average raider should do 5 raids in a week". Most real world activities feature 2-3 times a week 1-2 hour per session schedule. If you go gym 5 times a week for 2 hour each session, after a year you end up muscled like Dwayne Johnson.
If you force players to do 5 raids in a week, you probably won't make raiding more appealing. It will be like farming r14.

Let the people go if they tired. Say "good luck, thank you" when they leave. You don't have to bind people endlessly by forcing to farm some specific rare item. They will stay if you have cool team. They will quit asap if you are a-hole.

Things get healthier and more predictable with badges.

I'd like to remind you that Vanilla raiding is extremely fucked because to be able to raid BWL you need at least 3 tanks in your guild with the proper tanking set, threat set, and fire res set. If you say "good luck, thank you" to your main tank, you have 39 people that can't raid until 1 of them get funneled items in MC/ZG/Aq20 and they get their fire res and tanking set. You have 3 tanks burn out? The guild most likely stops raiding.

[Tawneyturtle]

I agree that raids should not be easy go easy out LFR with randoms. People should make long term social connections in game. BWL is a type of raid where coordination is important. Otherwise it is hell.

I don't agree with idea of "average raider should do 5 raids in a week". Most real world activities feature 2-3 times a week 1-2 hour per session schedule. If you go gym 5 times a week for 2 hour each session, after a year you end up muscled like Dwayne Johnson.
If you force players to do 5 raids in a week, you probably won't make raiding more appealing. It will be like farming r14.

Let the people go if they tired. Say "good luck, thank you" when they leave. You don't have to bind people endlessly by forcing to farm some specific rare item. They will stay if you have cool team. They will quit asap if you are a-hole.




Things get healthier and more predictable with badges.

I'd like to remind you that Vanilla raiding is extremely fucked because to be able to raid BWL you need at least 3 tanks in your guild with the proper tanking set, threat set, and fire res set. If you say "good luck, thank you" to your main tank, you have 39 people that can't raid until 1 of them get funneled items in MC/ZG/Aq20 and they get their fire res and tanking set. You have 3 tanks burn out? The guild most likely stops raiding. Badges would also help with DPS playeres spending their Badges on tanking items to keep the guild going after the tanks burned out/quit.

[Werefox]

People should make long term social connections in game.

This. This is the actual problem, not drop rates. WoW endgame is anti-social by design - it offers strictly personal rewards for collective effort.

If you want to fix raiding make it benefit guild as a whole. But in order to do that you need to fix massive flaws in WoW guild design. Which probably is a topic of its own.

[Hauntingsforum]

As a non raider on Turtle who wants to raid to explore the content i can give u some insight. Its the people that drives people away from raiding. First where is the fun? The meta mindset in a game that everybody says is to easy does not make sense. Loot ditribution u dont play a top dps class ur down in the list when it comes to gear. Ah u skilled that way ok ur not welcome in out team. Who wants to spend time with u raiders? The social and the fun aspect gots wiped out by people chewing the same gum over 10 years and setting stupid benchmarks to push efficiency instead of fun. Thats why people dont want to raid. Why should i spend my time with guys that appear dead inisde and threat the raiding like a job. Why dont take the challenge and go with a suboptimal setup? No u know everything so u make the rules and rob me the fun and most important the ability to come to my own conclusions. Not everybody wants to go the path that got trampled down the last 100years. People want to explore test fail and learn. And there is no space in raiding for such things. So what does people do? They search for places where they can do it, while leveling, in dungeons and in pvp but there u have a similar mindset it just does not have as much weight cause there is no Arena Raiting.

Just my input on this.

[Jombo]

I think a few people here in this thread don't even raid at all. How can you say anything about raiding if you never do it? It makes little sense to me.

That said, I think the main issue for me is that raiding takes too much time. For Naxx, either you spend 3 hours or spread it out over two days, neither of which is particularly nice. I used to raid several times a week some time ago because personal schedule allowed it. Now, this is simply not possible if real life has to work.

Unless one has a couple of days without any plans, it simply messes up real life too much.

My proposal therefore is to do two things:
1. Make sure that the new raids are short but very challenging both requiring resistance gear that takes you through different other dungeons for mats and required quest items. In addition, have complicated mechanics similar to 4horsemen in Naxx.
People will wipe a million times until they realise it's too difficult without proper gear and players capable of working together.

Emerald Dream:
For Emerald Dream, I'd prefer 5 bosses in one raid, but two separate raids.
Then you'll have 5+5 bosses for 1h-1,5 hours each. After the first boss is killed, give all raid members a 24 hour debuff that will make doing the other 5 boss raid impossible until it runs out.
This way, the content will last longer, and players can't do everything (i.e. both raids) in one run. Moreover, no one can force you to show up two days in a row or stay in raid for 3-4 hours.


The required resistance gear for ED would be Arcane.
I believe token/reputation items would be a good addition for *some* of the new gear. The biggest issue in my opinion is not that players don't easily get fully geared from a raid. Rather, it's sad to see raiders go time after time only to get nothing and perhaps even losing to some new fella that just joined the guild, raiding for the first time. With rep/ token items, veteran raiders are ensured good items, but not all of them of course.

2.
Leave vanilla official content as it is, with only perhaps a few minor adjustments. Trash mobs could deal a bit more damage but have less hp, thus requiring everyone to stay focused, but also being a bit faster to clear if done well.

[Hauntingsforum]

Mabe people raided before on official servers, on other pservers. Maybe the problem with vanilla raids is on all servers the same and there is no need to state information about raiding history to point out obvious problems in the raiding scene. What keeps raiding alive is fresh players joining so a view from outside can give u a hint about why nobody wants to join the cirlce to begin with.

Time is not the problem (ok sometimes) time gets the problem when its spend with things that are not fun or rewarding or artificialy gatekeeped by others.

Challenging is not farming resistance gear. Its tedious and time consuming so i wonder a bit u came with that idea. But a good implemented challenging raid could give atleast the bored out 24 / 7 / 10 years raiders a new motivaton and i like that.

The split idea wing A and wing B with different Bosses is also a cool idea but the main problem is people going after gear not for guild archievements or fun. How u distribute items on these two wings? If the good stuff is not at the last boss people will only go as far as needed and potentialy quit raiding even faster cause Boss 3 in Wing A dropped the BIS item.

[Hauntingsforum]

People should make long term social connections in game.

This. This is the actual problem, not drop rates. WoW endgame is anti-social by design - it offers strictly personal rewards for collective effort.

If you want to fix raiding make it benefit guild as a whole. But in order to do that you need to fix massive flaws in WoW guild design. Which probably is a topic of its own.

A guild reward or even a player reward for sticking to a raid and going there frequently could enhance the raiding experience. Tokens for Buff Food or Potions or maybe even Gold for the Guildbank or cool cosmetic rewards like Tabards missing pieces for certain transmog sets. Things like that could help. And i do think more loot would make more people happy at the same time and u would have less loot debates and waiting lists that burn people out.

Also more changes to mechanics and classes shake things up! What is known for years gets boring minor tweaks or additions could give some fresh air.

[Jombo]

Time is not the problem (ok sometimes) time gets the problem when its spend with things that are not fun or rewarding or artificialy gatekeeped by others.

Challenging is not farming resistance gear. Its tedious and time consuming so i wonder a bit u came with that idea. But a good implemented challenging raid could give atleast the bored out 24 / 7 / 10 years raiders a new motivaton and i like that.

The split idea wing A and wing B with different Bosses is also a cool idea but the main problem is people going after gear not for guild archievements or fun. How u distribute items on these two wings? If the good stuff is not at the last boss people will only go as far as needed and potentialy quit raiding even faster cause Boss 3 in Wing A dropped the BIS item.

Well, to me, time is a big factor. I can play WoW 5+ hours at a time, but being forced to be 100% focused without any option to leave for 3 hours (cause one will disappoint fellow raiders who feel like it's lack of solidarity). There is a big difference there.

Regarding the resistance gear farm, you misunderstood my point. My point was that the build-up to being able to enter the new raids would require doing existing content for quests and materials that give/can make the required arcane resistance gear. You misunderstood me, cause my point there was not about difficulty, it was about making raid gear players join other players in regular content for their own reasons (namely to be able to enter ED), while regular players would still come for the usual blues and dungeon set items. This creates a more interactive community and allows players, at their own pace, to build up the required gear before being able to enter ED.
This is really not something new. Naxx attunement is already a big rep farm, so a resistance gear farm is kinda similar to that.

The split wings: Again, both wings should yield rep for bosses killed. Only after a very long time would people be exalted. Furthermore, cross-wing repeatable quests could help here (like "slay X boss in wing A + slay Y boss in wing B)

[Tawneyturtle]

I have to disagree, resistance check bosses are dumb and absolutely hinders and gatekeeps raiding further. Even now most melee quits before AQ40 cause they dont want to drop hundreds of gold on nature res items.

[Kairion]

I have to disagree, resistance check bosses are dumb and absolutely hinders and gatekeeps raiding further. Even now most melee quits before AQ40 cause they dont want to drop hundreds of gold on nature res items.

Or they just all do the barov peasant caller quest and skip viscidus if necessary. People also vastly overestimate resistence gears importance. Particularly nr gear is both extremely cheap and not particularly necessary. Fireresist is important but only for 1-2 tanks per guild, same for shadowres.

Lastly frostresistence is the big middle finger, but that isnt used till the two last bosses in the entire game.

But i can agree with the core sentiment. Having to go out and gather specific gear for singular fights is quite anti climactic as a way to beat a boss

[Kazgrim]

I personally dislike raiding, but I respect the grind. MMOs are about grinding, and I wouldn't make changes to lessen that. It would've been a good idea for trash mobs to drop relatively decent items, to reward players for the time spent inside a raid. I think the main problem is players feeling like they make no progression after leaving a raid empty-handed. Raid rep, gathering mats, and gold would be a few ways to reward players who get left out.

Molten Core -> Hydraxian Warlords, Thorium Brotherhood. They just need some new rep items, maybe some new crafting patterns?

BWL -> No clue

AQ -> Cenarion Circle stuff

Naxx, assuming the player is already exalted with AD, I think something like collecting scourgestones from bosses would work. Players who dont win the roll on their item would roll for them, collect enough and turn it in for a t3 piece.

[Tawneyturtle]

The grind exists but there's a reason why the time for items was reduced in future expansions.

It should be normal to stop raiding old raids and focus on the ones you like or want to do. The entire point of my thread is how Turtle raids straight up burn people out.

Molten Core has: Onslaught Girdle, 2 Bindings, Quick Strike Ring, Striker's Mark, Band of Accuria. These are the only items players can't replace just in Naxx. Everything else has alternatives or straight up upgrades.

That's 5 items. Want to know how many items can drop in Molten Core?
32 Tier pieces. About another 24 other epics. So you have people raiding MC for 5 out of nearly 60 items.

BWL has: Untamed Blade, Rejuv gem, DFT, Chromatic boots, Styleens. 5 items. Then Nefarian has: Prestors, Neltharion's Tear, Mish'undare (for boomy/ele), Pure Elementium Band.

So while a bit better, BWL really has 5 never replaced items and Nefarian alone has 3 and 1 for non vanilla supported classes who lack spec specific enchants and gearing.

Between 2 raids we have 10 items people keep coming back for and the raids drop over 100 items. Yes alts and new players will take the garbage items if for nothing else as a replacement for questing greens, but the people that enable the raid being farmed in a comfortable time by carrying it are the 20 people hunting for 1 out of 10 items from 100+ items of loottable.

Let those people rest. Let them move on from these 2 raids and not have the guilds new players suffer in the process. Let these 2 raids be doable with ease without them taking an entire evening without T3 geared players. The server is casual, EXTREMELY casual, why do we want to keep things hard and grindy when out of 7000 people about 300 has the energy to even try? And why do people who don't even raid themselves want to tell others things should be grindy and difficult when they themselves can't be bothered to do it?

[Kazgrim]

I'm not telling you how to play, or be forced to do something you want to do, and I wasn't arguing againat your ideas, just giving you my opinion on what I like about MMOs. It sounds like you don't like to raid either given the current way it works, so why do you do it? Either way, I'll save your efforts and just tell you straight up as someone who used to be a developer for Turtle and listened to Torta's and everyones stance on modifying raids: Turtle will never change how the existing raids are.

[Xudo]

Between 2 raids we have 10 items people keep coming back for and the raids drop over 100 items.

What do you think about nerfing those items and adding better alternatives in raids of higher tier?
LHH and titanic leggings are in the same boat.

From one point of view, I think that existence of those 5 items make raids going. But from other point of view, there are enough people to assemble new progression guilds.

[Tawneyturtle]

I think nerfing current items works if they add better alternatives yes. But so far they've only nerfed dungeon drops and crafted items, the only vanilla item that was nerfed was the Ring from the Silithus questline cause Rets abused it.

[Tawneyturtle]

I'm not telling you how to play, or be forced to do something you want to do, and I wasn't arguing againat your ideas, just giving you my opinion on what I like about MMOs. It sounds like you don't like to raid either given the current way it works, so why do you do it? Either way, I'll save your efforts and just tell you straight up as someone who used to be a developer for Turtle and listened to Torta's and everyones stance on modifying raids: Turtle will never change how the existing raids are.

A bit bleak outlook, and extremely shortsighted by the team if it's true. People come for the vanilla + and stay for the vanilla endgame. Very few people stay for the RP like the server was meant to be.

[Ugoboom]

I don't agree with idea of "average raider should do 5 raids in a week". Most real world activities feature 2-3 times a week 1-2 hour per session schedule. If you go gym 5 times a week for 2 hour each session, after a year you end up muscled like Dwayne Johnson.
If you force players to do 5 raids in a week, you probably won't make raiding more appealing. It will be like farming r14.

Maybe i wasn't clear, but yeah I totally agree. Every raider doing all 4 40mans every week is ripe for burnout! It's just by the nature of how guilds needs to run lower raids for specific bis and near bis pieces... that this keeps the runs going. Scaling helps a lot here as you can pull off the lower raids with 30 people, maybe even 20 in MC.

That's great and all, and while not every naxx team member is required to, guilds will still need quite a lot of people to run lower tiers. That's the problem, that's where burnout sets in. I think this is what all of us agree could use fixing, to enable people to take it slow and make it so guilds dont need to push all 40 members to do all 4 40mans. That's just unusstainable for anyone who isnt a degenerate.

I also want to point out that Atiesh is made out of 40 splinters with dropchance of 30%. It is not 6% drop like eye of sulfuras and bindings of windseeker.

Absolutely man. Atiesh is the perfect solution for what is meant to be super rare giga cool item. I pray so hard for thunderfuryy to be atiesh'd in its acquisition. At least sulfuras is a vanity meme weapon, its more okay for those to be low % drop chances.

[Kekrimm]

how about this. crazy idea! If you don't like how raiding is on this server, then don't raid or go somewhere else.

[Kairion]

how about this. crazy idea! If you don't like how raiding is on this server, then don't raid or go somewhere else.

That is such a stupid argument "if you are not okey with the foodprices, just starve". People should be allowed to discuss if something good can be made even better

[Tawneyturtle]

how about this. crazy idea! If you don't like how raiding is on this server, then don't raid or go somewhere else.

[Xudo]

After some more thought, I have two more questions.
Here is what was proposed (at least what devs could change):
- Reduce raid preparation time
- Do something so only 1 or 2 raid would be played by people, instead of "all" now. By making badges or by rebalancing items.

When those changes will be implemented. Will you be able to call the game you get "vanilla+"?
Those changes actually shift the game to retail WotLK.

System mostly works as is. There are no serious problems blocking raids now.
Imagine that you will succeed. You will attract more casual players to raiding. Do you really want more casual players in your raids?
Activity which involves 40 ppl will only work if everyone will be serious. Those who can't be serious still can play in 5ppl dungeons, can do leveling over and over, can go twink 40-49 or 10-19. Endgame raiding is not the only activity for players.
Only minority actually do it.

[Balake]

After some more thought, I have two more questions.
Here is what was proposed (at least what devs could change):
- Reduce raid preparation time
- Do something so only 1 or 2 raid would be played by people, instead of "all" now. By making badges or by rebalancing items.

When those changes will be implemented. Will you be able to call the game you get "vanilla+"?
Those changes actually shift the game to retail WotLK.

System mostly works as is. There are no serious problems blocking raids now.
Imagine that you will succeed. You will attract more casual players to raiding. Do you really want more casual players in your raids?
Activity which involves 40 ppl will only work if everyone will be serious. Those who can't be serious still can play in 5ppl dungeons, can do leveling over and over, can go twink 40-49 or 10-19. Endgame raiding is not the only activity for players.
Only minority actually do it.

Casual player =/= bad player. There are some very hardcore people farming consumes 24/7 yet they can't pilot a video game character even if their life was on the line. There are also young people who are generally talented at video games but can't get into wow raiding because of time constraints, even though they would be really good at it. And there are the grown veterans who have to slowly reduce how much time they can spend with their friends as more adult responsibilities pile up. Both of these camps SHOULD NOT BE GATEKEPT OUT OF RAIDING. It is a GOOD THING to let these people raid.

"System works as is" you wouldn't know as once again (we have to say this in every thread so people who read your posts don't forget) You have no level 60 character and never raided in turtle wow

So yeah, maybe vanilla is this grindy fest because blizzard intended it, but do we really need to keep what blizzard intended knowing they wanted a 15$ subscription per month. Maybe vanilla is like this on accident, and blizzard didn't intend it (this is also a possibility, it's well known that in 2006 they were kinda stupid and didn't figure out the game balance yet).

Either way if they intended it or not, we don't have to keep ti this way. It IS indeed broke, so the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" doesn't apply.

"Endgame raiding is not the only activity for players. Only minority actually do it." Purpose of this whole thing is to open it up to more people

[Shroudedsoul]

how about this. crazy idea! If you don't like how raiding is on this server, then don't raid or go somewhere else.

This isn't retail.

So why are you being needlessly aggressive and hostile to others?

Just because something was done in the past doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon.

[Tawneyturtle]

After some more thought, I have two more questions.
Here is what was proposed (at least what devs could change):
- Reduce raid preparation time
- Do something so only 1 or 2 raid would be played by people, instead of "all" now. By making badges or by rebalancing items.

When those changes will be implemented. Will you be able to call the game you get "vanilla+"?
Those changes actually shift the game to retail WotLK.

System mostly works as is. There are no serious problems blocking raids now.
Imagine that you will succeed. You will attract more casual players to raiding. Do you really want more casual players in your raids?
Activity which involves 40 ppl will only work if everyone will be serious. Those who can't be serious still can play in 5ppl dungeons, can do leveling over and over, can go twink 40-49 or 10-19. Endgame raiding is not the only activity for players.
Only minority actually do it.

I actually know a lot of casual players that are better than people raiding Naxx right now. Most people raiding right now aren't good players, they're just dedicated. The time sink Turtle raiding takes makes a lot of "good player but doesnt have 16 hours a week for raiding" type people stay away.

[Enceebe]

Option C. Make end game content for people who don't like raiding.

I personally dislike raiding like alot. It gets stale really quick even in retail because it always just feels like a lap race until everyone learned the patterns they must do and that gets minmaxed.
I did raid all content in classic and was simply disapointed gameplaywise even from naxx, and mostly contiuned playing because I liked the people and the trash talk in the voice chat during raids. Most of the Loot was so rare that people grinded rank 14 simply because they wanted weapons.
As someone who played rogues in raids. It is simply no fun, because the entire tools a rogue has don't come to fruition like it does in a 5 or 10 man content or PvP.

I would rather play more 5 and 10 man content like UBRS,LBRS,BRD,Stratholm, Scholomance or DIremaul. I can chose where you want to go in the dungeon and need to make it work with what classes I have.
You can experiment with classes and class combos unlike in raids. Even playing the same role as tank felt different on paladin, druid or warrior. You can play all 3 without much problems.
Having acces to Loot via quests or completing quest chains to unlock short raids like Onyxia or getting the t0,5 is simply one of the best things about classic for me personally.

And lets be honest. A rogue does mostly the same in molten core as he does in naxx. Build combo points, finishing move, kick that one boss. Simply hoping to get that 1 drop that is 1% upgrade for me when I know that my t1 rogue with world buffs can outperform a t3 rogue without world buffs it is simply not motivating. But having an active rogue player in a dungeon. Who stuns, kicks, off tanks adds with 50% dodge, uses blind and other cc makes the job as a tank a lot easier.

Also many problems that people complain about are coming from raiding weekly with minmaxing or competive pvp.
WoW Classes are not so unbalanced as many say it is more that some classes are better in specific roles. Many classes and most specs are playable in 5 and 10 man content in most roles(yes even Oomkin).

In raids it is different. The best tank healer is paladin, the best tank is warrior, the best aoe/cc class is mage, the best group healer is shaman etc. and no PvP is only a side hustle in wow nothing more and should always be taking with a grain of salt . Some races *cough* orcs, gnomes, dwarves and undead *cough* are simply surperiror in pvp.