PvP balance suggestions

[Bloodline1x9]

I specifically wrote Fist +weapon skill item. If you are going to try and pick minor holes in my argument and ignore the main points then stop wasting both our times please.

I have answered you many times to your main points. Your first problem is that you overestimate the value of the number of combo in pvE. First of all, they are needed in pvp. That is why I explained you with clear examples, including Mutilate with its 3-4 combo from a just one use.

The second thing you don't understand is that you claim that backstab is already stronger than SS. This is a delusion.

Combat Daggers vs Combat Swords is a very valid comparison that can be done today. You can look at the parses between the two and see that there is very little difference between them. The balance already there.

This is a lie. There is currently no balance.

Backstab does a lot more damage than SS, like 50 more DPS when BIS.

Where did you get these numbers? Who said?
Swords are better in any phase. BiS are too. Daggers are played for fun. As well as to combine pvp and pve. Well, you know, it's fun to kill casters on BG with a dagger. In pure pve swords are better.

I'm not looking for holes in your posts, I thought you agreed with me that backstab needs at least one of the two buffs. But if you think that the way it is now is normal, then you and I have different views.

[Fixaren1]

Lol, what? Lets a little discuss about pvp strategies of different classes against the druid

Mage - lose a lot of hp after druids opening from steath, Nova -> transform free, CoC -> transform free, Cannot poly, Ice Block and after that the mage dies. He doesn't have time to cast anything only instants. No way to stop this shifting sh1t.
Warrior - druid fight in bear and if he loses a lot of health, just use Stun + Root, run away and heals. No way to stop it.
Rogue - druid meat him in bear give Fairy fire so that re-stealth was not possible. And just laugh as rogue tries to impale that fat skin.
Warlock - druid got a anti-fear
Priest - same, anti-fear
Hunter - easy free from slow/immobilize, oh OMG freeze trap can cautch druid! Have we found the only long CC capable of controlling the druid? Can not be! Hunter uses "Fear beast".. Oops.. Berserk

Mage - yes they lose

Warrior, stun + root. warrior trinket intersept out of form - druid dead

Rogue - find druid in stealth with pvp gloves and more improved stealth - druid dead

warlock - deathcoil - fear- fear druid dead

priest - dont need to fear they win anyway if they dont oom

hunter - just win nothing to it

[Ravenstone]

I specifically wrote Fist +weapon skill item. If you are going to try and pick minor holes in my argument and ignore the main points then stop wasting both our times please.

I have answered you many times to your main points. Your first problem is that you overestimate the value of the number of combo in pvE. First of all, they are needed in pvp. That is why I explained you with clear examples, including Mutilate with its 3-4 combo from a just one use.

The second thing you don't understand is that you claim that backstab is already stronger than SS. This is a delusion.

Combat Daggers vs Combat Swords is a very valid comparison that can be done today. You can look at the parses between the two and see that there is very little difference between them. The balance already there.

This is a lie. There is currently no balance.

Backstab does a lot more damage than SS, like 50 more DPS when BIS.

Where did you get these numbers? Who said?
Swords are better in any phase. BiS are too. Daggers are played for fun. As well as to combine pvp and pve. Well, you know, it's fun to kill casters on BG with a dagger. In pure pve swords are better.

Honestly, just look at the logs from Naxx from WoW classic. I picked out the first two Rogues and they happened to be Combat Swords and Daggers.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=33
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=41

Backstab damage was higher than SS damage.

Now, going through the next 8 I'll admit my 50dps was very generous, but you'll see the trend of Backstab doing more consistently. SS never broke 400DPS. You'll also see that the White damage is always comparable. The top 10 Rogues happen to be a 50/50 split between Combat Daggers and Combat Swords:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/r ... assination

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=18
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=18
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=50
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=16
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=50
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=23
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=35
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=34

Looks balanced to me.

I'm not looking for holes in your posts, I thought you agreed with me that backstab needs at least one of the two buffs. But if you think that the way it is now is normal, then you and I have different views.

You literally posted the talent tree to show me Fist Weapon skill, even though I specified there were no items, and ignored the rest of my answer as to why Fists are inferior to Swords and Daggers.

I have never given any indication that I agreed with you on this.

[Bloodline1x9]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=33
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=41

Backstab damage was higher than SS damage.

A never told you that combat sword rogue deal more dps just cuz a sinister compared to backstab. I told you many times that swords are better because of sword spec and white attacks.
When you write 50 more dps. I thought you were calculating the total dps of specializations. Because it's pointless to compare a +5% crit specialization that improves backstab and a specialization that improves white attacks.

The sample you provided clearly shows that despite the fact that the backstab specifically deals more dps, the total dps is higher in SS.



And I still have a question for that player, where is his advantage in white dps? And exactly how much % did the sword spec give him. Maybe dagger-man had more crusader procs or something.

And now, instead of looking at the sky-high status of BiS Gear, I will tell you how it is in practice. Backstab is a powerful blow. But it is very expensive and eats up almost all the energy. In most cases, and especially on trash, just swords and spam sinister will bypass the backstab. Because hitting in the back, choosing a position is always a little delay. This is important in fast fights and short fights. And since a dagger loses to a sword in something, it must have an advantage in something. It's like Amrs and Fury. Fury is stronger on one target, but against multiple targets on trash, Arms under Sweeping strikes does a lot of AOE. When I talk about buff the backstab, I mean that it should be stronger in some places, because it is weaker in others.
This is not a topic about pvE at all. PvE is very easy to balance by tweaking the numbers a bit. A player who has the discomfort of sneaking up to the enemy's back should not hit as much as a player who does not need to do so.

And at the end, a little about 2 combo point. As you can see from the graphs Evis causes from 1.4% to 5.5% damage. At the same time, backstabbers have less. It's not much.
I'm not going to say that what I'm suggesting won't affect the rogue choice of weapon for a raid boss fight. But the game is not only battles with bosses. There are also dungeons, trash, solo farming and PvP. It is not possible to make the dagger spec the same as the swords without falling behind in all other aspects of the game. Without changing its mechanics. I also understand that 40 energy is probably too strong buff for it. But the fact that backstab requires a buff is undeniable. Lets it will be 50 energy. And 2 combo points.

[Ravenstone]

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=33
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/report ... &source=41

Backstab damage was higher than SS damage.

A never told you that combat sword rogue deal more dps just cuz a sinister compared to backstab. I told you many times that swords are better because of sword spec and white attacks.
When you write 50 more dps. I thought you were calculating the total dps of specializations. Because it's pointless to compare a +5% crit specialization that improves backstab and a specialization that improves white attacks.

The sample you provided clearly shows that despite the fact that the backstab specifically deals more dps, the total dps is higher in SS.



And I still have a question for that player, where is his advantage in white dps? And exactly how much % did the sword spec give him. Maybe dagger-man had more crusader procs or something.

And now, instead of looking at the sky-high status of BiS Gear, I will tell you how it is in practice. Backstab is a powerful blow. But it is very expensive and eats up almost all the energy. In most cases, and especially on trash, just swords and spam sinister will bypass the backstab. Because hitting in the back, choosing a position is always a little delay. This is important in fast fights and short fights. And since a dagger loses to a sword in something, it must have an advantage in something. It's like Amrs and Fury. Fury is stronger on one target, but against multiple targets on trash, Arms under Sweeping strikes does a lot of AOE. When I talk about buff the backstab, I mean that it should be stronger in some places, because it is weaker in others.
This is not a topic about pvE at all. PvE is very easy to balance by tweaking the numbers a bit. A player who has the discomfort of sneaking up to the enemy's back should not hit as much as a player who does not need to do so.

And at the end, a little about 2 combo point. As you can see from the graphs Evis causes from 1.4% to 5.5% damage. At the same time, backstabbers have less. It's not much.

Honestly, it is so difficult to talk to you when you ignore what is in front of you and focus on the wrong things. The white damage is the first line, 863.1 vs 866 DPS. A whole 3 DPS difference. If you strictly look at the Melee + SS vs Melee vs Backstab, you can see that they are extremely comparable. There is very little difference in DPS between Combat Swords and Combat Daggers. The rest of the lines don't matter one bit in this discussion.

I'm literally providing you with evidence as to how it is in practice and yet you are willfully being blind. 10 different players, each at the top of the parses, and a 50/50 split in Combat Swords vs Combat Daggers and you still think Swords is far and away the better spec.

I'm not even going to bother addressing your last point about Eviscerate if you don't understand the first part...

[Bloodline1x9]

I'm literally providing you with evidence as to how it is in practice and yet you are willfully being blind. 10 different players, each at the top of the parses, and a 50/50 split in Combat Swords vs Combat Daggers and you still think Swords is far and away the better spec.

You like to argue with yourself. You invented a quest to compare dps with backstab and sinister and continue to argue with yourself. I didn't write to you and I didn't ask you to about that. Instead I wrote:

PvE dps works not so simple as you think. First, the main part of the damage is done by white attacks. Secondly, this is an ordinary ability. And in the last place finishers.

I can say that I proved myself right with the graphs you posted. Most of the damage is white attacks. Then skill. Finisher is the last.
You kept pushing me your dps comparison from a specific skill. Who cares? Nobody! Only general dps. You could compare the dps from hemo/chostly strike and say that it is stronger than Sinister. But this will not say anything about the entire dps as a whole.

Oh wait, first you even started saying with two combo points backstab will be like Seal Fate and get a lot of buff.
And it turned out that Evis causes only 1.5% damage (dagger rogue).
Why did you even start an offtop about PvE? If you like to argue about % dps from one or another ability, and not spec in general, and even more so not about pvp (because this topic is called "PvP suggestions"), then go to Classes forums -> Rogue and ask them if a rogue needs a buff backstab. And don't forget to ask them how many % dps the combat sword spec gives and how the dps of swordsrog grew with and buffs of paladins and shamans.

[Ravenstone]

You like to argue with yourself. You invented a quest to compare dps with backstab and sinister and continue to argue with yourself. I didn't write to you and I didn't ask you to about that.
...
Why did you even start an offtop about PvE?

I didn't start, you did you absolute moron.

My thinking leads to all classes being competitive in pve and competitive in pvp.
Because it's fair.
What I suggested will greatly affect pvp, but not pve.
...
Dagger rogue lose to rogue combat sword spec even if he hits in the back. Even in pvE.

I've proven to anyone with a working brain that this is simply untrue. You however will continue to dodge all reasoning all because you cannot admit you have no real understanding of the class and its abilities.

The very fact you want to only talk about PvP saying the changes won't impact PvE should warn anyone who cares about balance that you don't give a fuck about actually making things fair.

[Majestik51]

is 2 funny man... when som1 is not good at the game and tries 2 find ways of expressing his negativity and influence others.... this 20yo game bro, pls stay at ur lane and try to improve urself first....

[Heine]

Stop answering to this absurd topic with absurd pvp suggestions.
Devs might get absolutely wrong picture of balance in pvp.

[Bloodline1x9]

I didn't start, you did you absolute moron.

No U
Your problem is that you only read selective words, sentences at most in my posts. And when you get an answer, you still ask the same thing 10 times:

And I still have a question for that player, where is his advantage in white dps? And exactly how much % did the sword spec give him. Maybe dagger-man had more crusader procs or something.

Honestly, it is so difficult to talk to you when you ignore what is in front of you and focus on the wrong things. The white damage is the first line, 863.1 vs 866 DPS. A whole 3 DPS difference.

Why are you writing this to me? I just commented on it in the last post, you are writing something again. You don't even read my posts properly. "Honestly..." Honestly what? Honestly, are you stupid?
And you quoted me,

...
Dagger rogue lose to rogue combat sword spec even if he hits in the back. Even in pvE.

I didn't say backstab vs sinister. Read word by word "Dagger rogue" not just backstab, but whole spec dagger rogue and rogue "combat sword spec" not just sinister! Understand? Not backstab against sinister.
Stop even writing here. You're making a fool of yourself.

The very fact you want to only talk about PvP saying the changes won't impact PvE should warn anyone who cares about balance that you don't give a fuck about actually making things fair.

I already answered this question and wrote about it several times. Again, as usual, you didn't read anything and now we're going back.

But the game is not only battles with bosses. There are also dungeons, trash, solo farming and PvP. It is not possible to make the dagger spec the same as the swords without falling behind in all other aspects of the game. Without changing its mechanics. I also understand that 40 energy is probably too strong buff for it. But the fact that backstab requires a buff is undeniable. Lets it will be 50 energy. And 2 combo points.

And now, instead of looking at the sky-high status of BiS Gear, I will tell you how it is in practice. Backstab is a powerful blow. But it is very expensive and eats up almost all the energy. In most cases, and especially on trash, just swords and spam sinister will bypass the backstab. Because hitting in the back, choosing a position is always a little delay. This is important in fast fights and short fights. And since a dagger loses to a sword in something, it must have an advantage in something. It's like Amrs and Fury. Fury is stronger on one target, but against multiple targets on trash, Arms under Sweeping strikes does a lot of AOE. When I talk about buff the backstab, I mean that it should be stronger in some places, because it is weaker in others.

A player who has the discomfort of sneaking up to the enemy's back should not hit as much as a player who does not need to do so.

And again special for you

I'm not going to say that what I'm suggesting won't affect the rogue choice of weapon for a raid boss fight.But the game is not only battles with bosses.There are also dungeons, trash, solo farming and PvP

The backstab buff will definitely increase the rogue's dagger dps on bosses. But that's normal. Because the dagger rogue will lose to the sword rogue in other aspects of the game. Daggers will be better on bosses, and swords on trash and solo farm. And on pvp balance. It will be fair. And not like now, when Daggers lose in all categories and only on Nax bosses it is almost the same as a sword. I see nothing wrong with a dagger buff on bosses. So what? Rogues may begin to compete with fury warriors. It's good. And the competition for sword loot will decrease. Everyone benefits from this. If the dagger rog will too strong, it is easy to balance it by turning up the numbers. Omg... I am writing this for the third time already. Are you troll? Stop answering me then, I'm already tired of you.

[Holyhorrorr]

Are you actually nuts? 30 second for shifting as druid?
Druids are jack of all trades and master of none.
Berserk frees you 1 time out of fear, it is no immunity (learn to read the spell abilitys properly...)
If you really think druids are so overrpowered, then why not play one yourself? Druid is one of the classes that require actually skill in PvP cause a feral druid runs quickly oom when he shifts to much.

[Bloodline1x9]

this 20yo game bro, pls stay at ur lane and try to improve urself first....

There was no balance in vanilla pvp. As in pve. But admins are changing the game, trying to make memetic specs more relevant, and giving classes new abilities. I agree with the fact that vanilla should be changed a little, actualizing what is weak. The druid in pvp was not weak, but they make he stronger. This post is designed to draw attention to important moments of the game where I see an imbalance. If you have something to say specifically on some point, I will read it. And not "You play badly, that's why you want to change." Or maybe you are a druid yourself?

Devs might get absolutely wrong picture of balance in pvp.

Tell me your balance picture in pvp? What do you disagree with me about? Here are the points: 1. Is diminishing not necessary or what? And so on

Are you actually nuts? 30 second for shifting as druid?

What is wrong with you? Are you confusing the numbers?

give them a 20 second cooldown on change form.

This is first post.
Actually, here in the comments I already wrote that I agree even for 10 seconds. At least not all the time.

Berserk frees you 1 time out of fear, it is no immunity (learn to read the spell abilitys properly...)

it's good enough to remove the one fear of a warrior, priest or hunter. And they get CD for that.



Oh, damn, it gives more then Adrenaline Rush! 20 sec against 15

[Heine]

this 20yo game bro, pls stay at ur lane and try to improve urself first....

There was no balance in vanilla pvp. As in pve. But admins are changing the game, trying to make memetic specs more relevant, and giving classes new abilities. I agree with the fact that vanilla should be changed a little, actualizing what is weak. The druid in pvp was not weak, but they make he stronger. This post is designed to draw attention to important moments of the game where I see an imbalance. If you have something to say specifically on some point, I will read it. And not "You play badly, that's why you want to change." Or maybe you are a druid yourself?

Devs might get absolutely wrong picture of balance in pvp.

Tell me your balance picture in pvp? What do you disagree with me about? Here are the points: 1. Is diminishing not necessary or what? And so on

Are you actually nuts? 30 second for shifting as druid?

What is wrong with you? Are you confusing the numbers?

give them a 20 second cooldown on change form.

This is first post.
Actually, here in the comments I already wrote that I agree even for 10 seconds. At least not all the time.

Berserk frees you 1 time out of fear, it is no immunity (learn to read the spell abilitys properly...)

it's good enough to remove the one fear of a warrior, priest or hunter. And they get CD for that.



Oh, damn, it gives more then Adrenaline Rush! 20 sec against 15

Druid can be flashbombed in any anymal form, and feared again by class fear.
The very fact you pay attention to DRUIDS (LOL) says pretty clearly you are far away from pvp.
Stop suggestions please.

[Ravenstone]

I keep responding because you are wrong and persist in the misapprehension that Sword Spec is better in any way than Dagger. The logs show clearly that the white damage differences between Sword and Dagger are insignificant. They are equal. 3 DPS between the two of them on white damage for the first two that I linked. The % of Sword Spec extra swings is included in the Melee figure. It doesn't do nearly as much as you think.

The logs are of the entirety of Naxx, trash included. Top 10 different logs showing that all these rogues, 5 of each spec, end up with very comparable DPS. Thats across trash and bosses. Equal DPS. You keep saying Sword will win out on trash and it just isn't true. Solo farm fine, but that is not what the game should be balanced around...
You tell me other areas of the game exist like PvP and yet you told me I shouldn't be discussing PvE here.

I don't bother responding to half of what you write because it is completely irrelevant. You fail to understand the basics. The numbers show they are equal regardless of whether it is single or multi target when you have equal equipment. Any buff to Backstab breaks that for no good reason. You think it is bad in PvP therefore you want it to be OP everywhere.

[Boras]

Also, have you ever considered maybe warrior needs a rootbreak instead of double charge? Only two classes can reliably root you, but many more need to kite a warrior with slows to win.

This is needed not only against nova or roots. When a warrior attacks from an intercept, after gaining control, he can no longer get close. By the way, where will he get the rage for the intercept? That is, he must press Blood Rage after receiving damage to himself, switch stance, intercept, harmsting. And all this is accompanied by a global CD.
At this time, dots/castes are eating him, and he has already taken 30%-50% of his HP. And here he seems to be able to start hitting, but he gains control. All classes have control. And then he can no longer shorten the distance.
The charge mechanic has its vulnerabilities. There is a deadly zone. 8 yards minimum, or you can go beyond its range.
Casters have a lot of control. A warrior is a toy for them. Even a shaman. He has a Hex, which he will use after intercepting a warrior, put a slow totem, run away, frost shock, kite and kill him in a few seconds. In order to give a pummel, you need to be nearby. And it won't work against instant casts. It only closes one school.

And on the backstap topic, please think half a second before you post. you get 30% increased crit chance on Backstab as well as 142 extra basedamage on the spell. In terms of damage per energy, backstab clearly outperforms sinister.

Do you think the +30% crit chance makes up for the fact that it costs 50% more? 3 sinister strikes = 2 backstab at cost. Already at this stage, backstab loses. +30% crit and the talents spent on it are just a price for the discomfort of being hit in the back. Backstab should be stronger, because it's more difficult to implement. And at the moment it's even weaker. Evidence that rogues take swords for PVE. Although they can stab bosses in the back with daggers. But the combat sword spec is stronger.

The lower combopoint generation is the drawback of backstab.

At the very least, do you agree with me that backstab should give more combo points?

This out of all the changes is the most absurd to me. You say you have a Rogue but I can only assume you don't fully understand this. You don't see any problem whatsoever with making Backstab the same energy cost as an Improved Sinister Strike, with double the combo points, and higher potential to gain a third combo point with Seal Fate and Imp Backstab?

Ok, lets talk about Seal Fate. In pve Combat spec and in pve Sublet dominate but you want to talk about talent deep in Assassination...

Firstly, due to the fact that sinister is cheaper, the rogue can get 3 additional points from three hits. And backstab, although it has a higher chance to crit, can only get +2 additional combo from two hits (120 energy to 120 energy)
Are you curious why after the appearance of Mutilate in TBC, rogues still played Combat - pve and Hemo - PvP? Mutilate could give 4 combos. Because the alternatives are stronger. And hitting in the back is more difficult.

I understand the sentiment on Druids and am inclined to agree that they shouldn't have been given a fear break, but giving them a cooldown on their forms? You are just killing the class.

Will not kill. This will balance it. If a druid wants to play as a cat, then he plays as a cat. If he wants to play like a bear, he plays like a bear. And the class will balance from this point. A cat competes with a rogue, a bear with a warrior.
And he will still be strong. When he opens from stealth, he has no form cooldown. He will bite and hit, then when he is placed in Nova he will change his form and take him off. And only then does he get his first cooldown. He will have to wait, if not 20, then at least 10 seconds before he uses his "uncoutable pvp-trinket". And how did he want? He wanted to hit like a rogue, survive better than a tank, so that he could not be controlled by anything, and he himself had a lot of control? And then healing?

Bro quit crying. Pop a potion or die in a root. Simple solution. Hell, ZG gives you living action potion that breaks snares and roots AND makes you immune to them so it’s even easier for you since thinking ahead isn’t your strong point. Warriors are overpowered. Potion intervene and win. How simple does it have to be? Do you need an item that just kills your target with a 30 sec cd?

[Bloodline1x9]

Pop a potion or die in a root.

Are you sure that the balance in the game should be like this?

If you drink a potion, what prevents the enemies from doing the same?

Do you consider it's normal duel when both opponents fight under FAP?

[Boras]

Pop a potion or die in a root.

Are you sure that the balance in the game should be like this?

If you drink a potion, what prevents the enemies from doing the same?

Do you consider it's normal duel when both opponents fight under FAP?

Yes, deal with it. It's called pvp. Sounds like you wanna just whine about nothing at this point. Pop a potion and intervene. Git gud.

[Frankferrari]

if only you'd invested the time to come up with these horrible ideas in unbinding your S-key from walking backwards, you probably would've saved yourself a lot of time and nerves.

it's truly unfathomable how people always come up with these ultra-biased stupid ideas, based on what class just beat them up.. the cherry being "give druids 20sec cd on change form", holy f..., how can anyone be that uncapable of thinking, to even present this idea to others.

[Bloodline1x9]

Pop a potion and intervene.

Intervene to whom? If it's 1x1, I can't do it to anyone.

I am a duel-kid. I played a lot of time on fan servers. These are the ones where you create a hero of the maximum level and then duel, go to the BG, or the arena. And you know what? Opponents do not drink potions in duels. Because it doesn't work in the arena and it's not fair. Only your buffs and skills against the same enemy's. It's like a competition, a sport. Each class has some innate amount of control and anti-control. Rogue, for example, his stuns and control are part of his weapons. If the opponent will fight with FAP, then he will get an excessive, abuse advantage. It's not fair and it's not competitive, it's not even spectacular.

[Boras]

Pop a potion and intervene.

Intervene to whom? If it's 1x1, I can't do it to anyone.

I am a duel-kid. I played a lot of time on fan servers. These are the ones where you create a hero of the maximum level and then duel, go to the BG, or the arena. And you know what? Opponents do not drink potions in duels. Because it doesn't work in the arena and it's not fair. Only your buffs and skills against the same enemy's. It's like a competition, a sport. Each class has some innate amount of control and anti-control. Rogue, for example, his stuns and control are part of his weapons. If the opponent will fight with FAP, then he will get an excessive, abuse advantage. It's not fair and it's not competitive, it's not even spectacular.

Go play retail then if you want everyone to play exactly the same then.

[Xudo]

Pop a potion and intervene.

Intervene to whom? If it's 1x1, I can't do it to anyone.

I am a duel-kid. I played a lot of time on fan servers. These are the ones where you create a hero of the maximum level and then duel, go to the BG, or the arena. And you know what? Opponents do not drink potions in duels. Because it doesn't work in the arena and it's not fair. Only your buffs and skills against the same enemy's. It's like a competition, a sport. Each class has some innate amount of control and anti-control. Rogue, for example, his stuns and control are part of his weapons. If the opponent will fight with FAP, then he will get an excessive, abuse advantage. It's not fair and it's not competitive, it's not even spectacular.

Vanilla wow was designed with consumables in mind. Grenades, Potions and other stuff are hard requirement because they are strong.

[Bloodline1x9]

Vanilla wow was designed with consumables in mind. Grenades, Potions and other stuff are hard requirement because they are strong.

Grenades and engi stuff it's ok for duels. Yes, grenades cannot be used in the arena either, but they gave a small one-time control. They are used in duels.

A healing potion by agreement is also suitable for a duel (for classic wow). Well, if a healing potion against healing potion.

Free Action Potion is a completely different thing.

Lock, with infinite fear without cooldown, without diminishing is an imbalance. Fear-bot. But if there is a condition and let there be a fight between both duelists with FAP, then it simply does not make sense. Because the lock remains completely with his weapons. No fear, no succubus control. It just kills the point of the duel because it's not showy.
And that's why the balance of classes in pvp should start from the point where they don't use FAP. And in 1x1 battles.
For BG, or for world pvp - there please use anything to win.
The meaning of duels is that everything should be fair.

[Xudo]

Duels are not supposed to be fair at all. They never were in any expansion. Balance was always rock-paper-skissors.
I believe that vanilla PvP design is balanced around 10vs10 with carrying flag in mind.

Blizz have tried to balance PvP for 2vs2 in TBC. But they realized that this is fail and make WoTLK ranked arena season to be 3vs3 and 5vs5. They also made large-scale battlerounds with vehicles and stuff.

Asking to make 1vs1 fair is waste of time. Game is not designed like this and it should not to be.
It is not chess nor RTS like warcraft 3.

[Bloodline1x9]

Duels are not supposed to be fair at all.

Who said that? And why should we promote injustice instead of correcting it?

It's the same as admins trying to update memo-specs in pvE, because balance is needed. Balance is also needed in pvp.

Balance was always rock-paper-skissors.

Not always. Balance is when every class has a chance against everyone. Against some more chances, against some less.
If you almost always lose to a class, it means that it is your anti-class. Means the necessary mechanisms that will strengthen the class only against this opponent. R-P-S it's a lame replacement for balance.


But I'm not suggesting a detailed overhaul of the entire game balance. And only its fatal angle.
What I propose is logical simple things. They are understandable to any pvp-bro. Because it's fair thing

Tell me how to defeat a warlock if fear never ends? If there is no dimishing

[Remorsx]

play dragonflight u gonna like it especially the part where people cant kite a warrior and it slaps faces

[Xudo]

Who said that? And why should we promote injustice instead of correcting it?

Thats wrong question.
Why 1vs1 should be balanced?
Game encourages people to fight on battlegrounds in teams of 10vs10 or 15vs15 or 40vs40. Turtle devs made it possible to fight 2vs2.
You can pretend that world pvp is 1vs1, but it is not actually rewarded and is not fair by design. Sides can be unequal like lvl 40 against lvl 25. Attackers can open unexpectedly for victim.

[Bloodline1x9]

Why 1vs1 should be balanced?

Because it's a competitive default. Without it, it's impossible to even hold interclass competitions. And 10-15-40 ppl battles will be balanced by themselves relative to the duel balance anyway. In fact, warriors feel very bad in mass battles. If we take League of Legends as an example, then there the tank/bruiser can withstand a lot of damage. He has a much higher health % and has magic protection. A warrior in wow is not like that. He has no magical protection, that's why casts beat him like a mannequin as soon as he appears at a distance of 40 meters. If he is healed by several people and dispelled then, well, he will just beat. But this is not his merit, but the entire team working on him. I'm not saying make him stronger directly, but he needs a charge in combat to even try to do something.
(As a mage, I know that it is possible to kill a warrior without him even hitting me. He has one intercept against my one blink. What else can he do to me? He is slowed all time. I still have Nova. There is Ice Block, Ice Barrier. Twice. He has nothing. Just nothing at all. In TBC, he at least had Second Breath, which healed him in Novas/Stuns and Spell Reflect. And here he just stands there until death and can't do anything.)
Charge in battle will make the warrior stronger against ranges, and will not affect his battles against rogues, for example.

Druid on the contrary, as the opposite of warriors. The whole team is trying to catch them and no one can control them.
They can easily play as rogues, warriors, casters, healers, the strongest flag keepers. They can do it all. Later, with each wow patch, when more and more control and anti-control skills appeared in classes, its imbalance gradually ceased to be felt. But Classic is very poor for such skills and his endless pvp trinket feels too strong

[Xudo]

He has no magical protection, that's why casts beat him like a mannequin as soon as he appears at a distance of 40 meters. If he is healed by several people and dispelled then, well, he will just beat. But this is not his merit, but the entire team working on him.

Exactly this. 10vs10 is not 1vs1 10 times. It is complex situation with every player fulfilling some specific role.
Player roles are not equal.

[Mackylol]

nerf naxx gear, pvp fixed.

[Fixaren1]

Druid on the contrary, as the opposite of warriors. The whole team is trying to catch them and no one can control them.
They can easily play as rogues, warriors, casters, healers, the strongest flag keepers. They can do it all. Later, with each wow patch, when more and more control and anti-control skills appeared in classes, its imbalance gradually ceased to be felt. But Classic is very poor for such skills and his endless pvp trinket feels too strong

Druid don't need nerf at any spec, warlock can easy control druids, hunters can easy control druids. Omg they have 1 fear break (6min CD)so what... Just deathcoil fear, fear will work 9/10 times.

Shadow priest deletes druid in any spec with same gear.
Good warlock win vs druid in any spec at same gear. Elemental shamans/paladin hard win. Think all four are better in group fight .

2vs2
What kind of group are druid stronger in 2vs2 than a group without. Both group has healer but trade the DMG with the druid for sure not; warrior, rogue, warlock, paladin, hunter, mage ( if he can sheep druid healer).
So only shaman because the shaman will oom and shadow priest iam not sure about.

Group pvp
boomkin: low dps and easy to keep from doing DMG.
Healer: one of the weakest healers in pvp, easy to kill or they go bear and do nothing.
Feral cat: high DMG easy to kill.
Feral bear: hard to kill, low DMG.

If all that joined bgs had same gear.

Ab: good defend has stealth and live long.
Can't hard Cc(only warriors), found in stealth while defending die kinda insta.

Wsg: Good at getting flag.
Bad group fighting.

Sounds like you are getting deleted by someone that outgear you hard. Like it should be.

[Dysterius]

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX ALTERAC VALLEY.

All it would take is for the backdoors to be removed or balanced. It's way too easy to get into Horde base. NOT TO MENTION all the of the elite NPC's near Aid Station. LIKE WHY are there so many NPC's guarding aid station, BUT THERE ARE NONE guarding relief hut besides guards. This is ridiculous. Alliance win everygame. FIX THIS SHIT YOU'RE LOSING PLAYERS BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO PVP IN AV

[Illyria]

Please forbid writing to this madman Bloodline1×9 PLZZZZZZ!!!

[Nandiebs]

I find every single one of these suggestions extremely bad

[Bigsmerf]

[/quote]Is pvp prohibited on turtle?
What is your problem? How will balance in pvp affect you in pve?

There's no way you just asked for a 20 second CD on shapeshifting for druids, and just said that.

[Rat2156]

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX ALTERAC VALLEY.

All it would take is for the backdoors to be removed or balanced. It's way too easy to get into Horde base. NOT TO MENTION all the of the elite NPC's near Aid Station. LIKE WHY are there so many NPC's guarding aid station, BUT THERE ARE NONE guarding relief hut besides guards. This is ridiculous. Alliance win everygame. FIX THIS SHIT YOU'RE LOSING PLAYERS BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO PVP IN AV

Somehow you forgot to mention how horde can easily climb on top of the aid station, making them extremely difficult to reach by melee, and making all the DB guards bug out. Or the very potent backdoor into DB. Or the countless wallclimbing exploits that make DB undefendable if attacked by a halfway competent party. Or the path to jump directly on top of DB north bunker. Or the high ground choke north from Icewing Bunker


The reason why Horde always loses AV isn't because of the map. it's because of Horde players. You start each battle with 30 players already accepting defeat and not actually trying to win