Raider's view on possible changes

User avatar
Elewent
Posts: 5

Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm

Hi!
This is my first post. It's meant to point the possible changes that improve the raiding atmosphere.
I will try to point out the proposed change, explain the reason for said proposed change, and possibly indicate a historical equivalent change that had already been done.
To start, I've been raiding Naxxramas (https://armory.turtle-wow.org/#!/character/Element) as well as all other raids for a while on different servers, including the past year on turtle wow. I believe that a happy raiding environment will keep raiders around, which are some of the most active and impactful players on the economical/social atmosphere of the game as a whole - meaning we should try to keep raiders happy.

I will try to start with the less controversial and simple changes, that I believe no one should have any issues with:

1.
https://database.turtle-wow.org/?quest=80369, Tea with Sugar.
Tea with sugar has become a staple of raiding consumables for most raiders. You get 4 pieces with 3 charges (12 charges total). My proposal for this consumable is simple - make it 1 stack of 12 charges. Close to all consumables have already had this done to them (Mongoose, giants, free action potion etc. stacks were made 5->10), so it makes sense for this consumable to also take less space.

2.
Recently we have had debuff slots increased to 64. My simple proposal here is to also increase buff slots to 48. From my understanding the current buff slots are at 32 slots. This change affects positively those that wish to have more things to do outside of the raid, but it also affects custom class changes. For example, we have had Bloodlust as well as priest champion buffs push off consumables off our tank and other players. This increases the disincentive from playing these custom specs and also creates more interaction in the game as more herbs etc. are farmed and sold between players.

3.
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants. My suggestions is to either increase the amount of nodes in the world, or increase the amount of herbs you can get per node. You can see this already been done for Black lotus, when it was high in price, by adding it to high level herbs. I think this change is equivalent and much needed. An alternative reverse suggestion would be to make shadow oil require half the Grave moss, and Mighty rage potion require 1 Gromsblood.

Blasted Lands buffs also possibly require some changes. Currently there are not enough spawns for the server. Every spot is filled with players most of the time, which leads to frustration. I personally am not 100% set on this requiring changes, but one suggestion would be to increase their drop amount to a random value between 1-3. This is especially the case for Blasted Boar Lungs and Scorpok Pincers.

4.
Length of consumables
Frostmaul Giants are lvl 59-60 elites in Winterspring that drop https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=12436 Frostmaul E'ko. These require a group to kill, and even then are not very much a worthwhile time investment. The main issue with said consumable, even if it is the best attack power consumable, is that it only lasts 10 minutes. I suggest making the consumable last 20 minutes, which will create more social interactions of groups farming said consumable.

Other consumables, that I believe should be changed are:
Tel'abim food (30 minutes, maybe people will finally visit the island. Currently they are far too expensive for their duration). I believe there is also value in letting them stack with other food buff (My understanding is that they do not).
Consecrated Sharpening Stone and Blessed Wizard Oil- Currently you need 1 argent dawn token to trade in for 1 stone. I think this is excessive, especially for a class like hunter which requires two stones per hour. I suggest making 1 Argent dawn token trade for 2 Stones/Oils instead.

Ok, enough consumable talk. smiling_turtle_head

I'd like to talk about some changes in regards to gameplay in raids. Some of these will be more opinion based for what I think is good or bad for raids

Rogue tanking. This is gimicky and cute for dungeons. But I do not want to see rogues above 100% mitigation not being able to take a single bit of damage on end game bosses in naxxramas. This is clearly not intended and cheats the entire fight. As our raid never used a rogue tank, I'm not sure if it is anymore possible without wbuffs (someone can comment on this). Nevertheless, I think this needs to be thought through and changed. I can't say I have any good suggestions here outside of removing/reworking the Flourish spell and giving rogues something more enjoyable (better aoe damage, player based combat points etc.). One rework for Flourish could make it a "take 40% less damage for x seconds" instead of pure mitigation. As far as class power, I think mages also deserve a bit more love with world buff removal. Other class balances require far more thought than I can provide here, and it's not really my place to comment on those classes.

You've nerfed Gnomish battle chicken, which is understandable (as it was not working as intended). This left quite a few players unhappy though. I think it would be valid to also fix Battle Chickens by letting their buff (Battle Squawk( stack group wide as it did in classic (https://i.redd.it/0f5gdk39vhg61.png).

As I've played warrior far too much time, I have a lot of thoughts on it. I don't intend to comment on other classes and their possible changes as I do not play them. Note that I do want class balance - if warriors get some kind of a buff, other classes should also receive something.

Warrior is fundamentally different from every single class, as their Rage generation enables their use of spells.
Mages, priests, druids, rogues, shamans... no class gets to cast more spells (outside of lack of mana) from gaining more gear - other than warrior.
With the removal of world buffs, the gameplay of warrior has changed the most out of any class fundamentally. Yes, every class did more damage with world buffs, but they are fundamentally played the same way. Warrior on the other hand, became much less fun to play. This is simply because our rage generation is much lower and we can cast far less spells now. It is a frustrating experience not being able to cast spells due to a lack of rage. My one suggestion is to modify rage formula for warriors to gain more rage. I think this change should come hand in hand with improvements for other classes, as warriors are at the top of dps charts currently.
The other route to go, which I think might be preferable, is to allow Onyxia and Zul'Gurub buffs in raids.
Personally I was against world buff changes, but I understand if it is for the sake of balancing future content. However, I think onyxia+zulgurub provide a similar benefit for all classes. Onyxia and Zul'Gurub buffs are different from the rest, as they require a large raid to clear them. This incentivises people to clear Onyxia and Zul'gurub, allowing lower geared players to get more gear. It also allows for interaction between guilds to create schedules for buff drops - which I think improves the sense of community. There is also something quite fun about having so many raiders stacking up waiting for a buff to drop in Stormwind/orgrimmar and Booty Bay/ZG Island.

One easy way to work these buffs around new content is to disable world buffs for guilds that have not cleared the entire raid. I think my ideal view of raiding is having more difficult progression, which feels satisfying. In this scenario you should not be allowed to cheat your way through bosses by brute forcing them with world buffs. I however believe, that once a guild has proven their ability to clear a raid, they should be able to have fun trying to clear it as fast as possible (which is more enjoyable with world buffs). Raids are already quite slow on this server, as there are only a few guilds that clear Naxxramas in one day. As such, I believe allowing Onyxia+Zul'Gurub buffs in raids after a guild has killed the last boss to be ideal.

TLDR on warrior talk
Warrior fundamentally different. Warrior without world buff rage generation is unfun. Three ways to go about this, either class specific changes(modifying rage generation code) while also buffing other classes or world buff specific changes, or nerfing warrior damage while buffing their rage equal amounts (personally ok with this, other might hate it). Personally I prefer world buff specific changes, as they create other external positive factors (such as improving feeling of a community and gearing new players) and require less balancing between classes.


I make this post because our population has seen large growth and I believe these suggested changes require swift action to keep these new players around.
Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Elewent on Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Reploidrocsa
Posts: 498

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Reploidrocsa » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm

Also, make healing over time effects stack

User avatar
Pahacsinta
Posts: 50

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Pahacsinta » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:47 pm

+changes overall,

Rogue cheese tanking helps a lot for progression guilds, altho they lack on threat insanely, in class changes we already got 0 things out of it and only this meme ability that became a thing u can cheese with were useful (beside imp sap) dont see point removing it considering warrior still top dps and tank and rogues wont be better then them probably ever.


I would suggest maybe split up blasted lands buffs to other zones so every type of consume could be in a different zone with more diverse quest requirements

herbing/alchemy really needs to change +
Last edited by Pahacsinta on Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Toirto
Posts: 45

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Toirto » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm

wow
I think this post is pretty cool

User avatar
Heine
Posts: 193

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Heine » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm

Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm
Also, make healing over time effects stack
Stop making pve suggestions heavlity affecting pvp in a bad way.

Ibux
Posts: 383

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm

if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.

User avatar
Fizzler
Posts: 158
Location: North Korea
Contact:

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Fizzler » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:03 pm

+1
Fizzler - Gnome Mage 60
Yenwat - High Elf Paladin 60
Fluidstrike - Human Rogue 60
Socratus - Night Elf Druid 60
Boyo - Goblin Warrior 60

User avatar
Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:27 pm

Ibux wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.
I think they are the most played class because they are the best tank and the best dps.

I hope people understand that my point isnt to make warriors stronger than other classes. Personally I would take a dps loss if it meant I had more rage to press spells. I do think however, that balancing through class buffs for everyone (hard to balance), gear (abit easier to balance) or consumables/buffs (easiest to balance imo) is preferable.

Ibux
Posts: 383

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:42 pm

Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:27 pm
Ibux wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
if warrior is so unfun to play without world buffs then why are they by far the most played class? improve the under represented builds first. warriors should go to the back of the fix list.
I think they are the most played class because they are the best tank and the best dps.

I hope people understand that my point isnt to make warriors stronger than other classes. Personally I would take a dps loss if it meant I had more rage to press spells. I do think however, that balancing through class buffs for everyone (hard to balance), gear (abit easier to balance) or consumables/buffs (easiest to balance imo) is preferable.
probably also because warrior can choose from all of the most played races. it doesn't sound unreasonable to me to have better rage gen for warriors as long as dps is not higher. i think this is a thing liked for most other classes also. like for example cat druids and rogue love having endless energy on vael. same for healing. sucks in general to go out of mana on a fight for most casters.

User avatar
Gantulga
Posts: 832

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Gantulga » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:52 pm

Resource management is an integral part of the game. You're not supposed to just mash skills every GCD and never run out of your resource.

User avatar
Tawneyturtle
Posts: 187

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Tawneyturtle » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:54 pm

I really like this post. Obviously you only listed things that affect your character, so let's not dwell on the post focusing on warriors.

I think we could easily go for 60 minute consumables over 10-20-30. If the devs wanted the raid to be slow, they wouldn't have introduced Mage Refreshment table and Soulwell to the game, and instead made people trade the warlocks/mages 1 by 1. No reason why you should have to sit down and eat food/repop 1 out of 6 pots every 10 minutes.

I think an important factor no1 is mentioning is that the server has a LOT of new players right now, who are having tons of fun leveling, but endgame certainly scares them away from raiding, so many consumes to learn of, to farm for, for a player with blue gear, that is a daunting task. Changes to consumables would help old raiders but first and foremost would help NEW players looking to find their home in any of the old guilds on Turtle wow. If we want the new players to continue playing after hitting 60 we should make the raiding less gatekeeping.
Tawney - High elf warrior 60
Feytale - High elf Mage 60 (Rank 1 Mage Naxx during WBs)
Have fun parsing not only at 19.

Ibux
Posts: 383

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Ibux » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Tawneyturtle wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:54 pm
I really like this post. Obviously you only listed things that affect your character, so let's not dwell on the post focusing on warriors.

I think we could easily go for 60 minute consumables over 10-20-30. If the devs wanted the raid to be slow, they wouldn't have introduced Mage Refreshment table and Soulwell to the game, and instead made people trade the warlocks/mages 1 by 1. No reason why you should have to sit down and eat food/repop 1 out of 6 pots every 10 minutes.

I think an important factor no1 is mentioning is that the server has a LOT of new players right now, who are having tons of fun leveling, but endgame certainly scares them away from raiding, so many consumes to learn of, to farm for, for a player with blue gear, that is a daunting task. Changes to consumables would help old raiders but first and foremost would help NEW players looking to find their home in any of the old guilds on Turtle wow. If we want the new players to continue playing after hitting 60 we should make the raiding less gatekeeping.
consumables that "persists through death" would probably be very helpful for new players and guilds that have lots of deaths or raid wipes.

User avatar
Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:14 pm

Gantulga wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:52 pm
Resource management is an integral part of the game. You're not supposed to just mash skills every GCD and never run out of your resource.
This is semi subjective, since rage is unique. Having more rage is more intensive, it requires more skill (both objective statements), which personally equates to more fun (subjective). I can understand people who find enjoyment in playing the resource management game that is low gear warrior, but I think (at least from personal experience) that most warriors prefer having more rage than not

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:17 pm

Heine wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm
Reploidrocsa wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:41 pm
Also, make healing over time effects stack
Stop making pve suggestions heavlity affecting pvp in a bad way.
Honestly this won't affect pvp as I've never seen two resto druids or two healer priests in the same room in pvp dead_turtle_head

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm

Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants.
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

User avatar
Elewent
Posts: 5

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Elewent » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:26 pm

Xudo wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
Elewent wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm
Some herbalism nodes are lacking. We have had a large increase in costs for Grave moss as well as Gromsblood prices.
You can see that these prices have been constantly high and even increasing lately on https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... w/alliance. Grave moss is a component of Greater Shadow Protection Potion and Gromsblood is used for multiple needed consumables, such as Flask of Titans, Mighty Rage Potion, and Elixir of GIants.
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
Well people whining is probably not a good thing, a lot of the time it suggests something is wrong.
Personally I have 20k gold and another 20k in consumes stocked for next 6 months so I don't care as much.
I started restocking recently for next half a year and noticed like a 3x price increase from my last indexed prices in October for some of the herbs.

I think gromsblood prices are probably the most ridiculous lately, since you can easily dump 100g just on gromsblood a raid

User avatar
Snakeman
Posts: 80

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Snakeman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:58 pm

I can't speak to a lot of this but Juju Might is such a sad consumable. As a hunter it is literally your only option as an attack power consumable, so you're spending upwards of 60g just on frostmaul e'ko (because the drop rates are too low to just farm a stack for yourself) while melee classes are able to use Winterfall Firewater, which can drop as they farm Juju Power. 100% agree with buffing the duration, but I feel the drop rate from the giants also needs to be addressed, because as it is right now you can spend less time farming the gold to buy a stack of e'ko than it would take to just farm the e'ko outright from the giants.

Blasted Boar Lungs are my second least favourite farm in the game. All it needs imo is for the mobs to respawn quicker (or dynamically!), but with all the performance issues as of late I can't really see it happening for a while. Could probably benefit from just a flat droprate increase, cause as it is right now I spend like half an hour standing in one place killing boars to turn in a grand total of five lungs for my stack of ground scorpok assay.

also @ the HoT PvP comment, I'm not sure what your issue is? HoTs stack in every other version of the game but vanilla. It means having >1 resto druid around is no longer actively screwing you over, whether that's in a raid or a battleground.

Tel'Abim Surprise (rAP food) is totally fine though minus the dream dust needed to transmute, it's just the fact the haste and spellpower foods require more expensive mats on top of the dream dust that fucks with their viability. Iirc this was suggested a while ago as well, but changing the haste food to require elemental air or breath of wind would bring it up to par with the rAP food in terms of how expensive it is to craft, while giving extra purpose to underutilised drops. Essence of Air is in too many high-demand recipes to warrant it being a component of a single-use food buff, especially with haste becoming less valued by non-ferals without world buffs.

Rogue tanking can be left as-is. They don't pump enough threat to be useful in higher-end guilds, and they can't mitigate magical damage via avoidance and crumple vs caster bosses just the same as any other rogue. With flourish they can still hit avoid cap without world buffs, but they lose out on a LOT of wiggle room in terms of their gear - as I understand it, they're pretty much locked into taking agi and dodge with almost nothing to increase their threat gen. Useful for progression, but once your DPS start to approach full bis you're better off with a hit-taking tank that can really pump aggro.
Your local troll artist and enthusiast.
Scottish, heavy RP-PvPer & former Naxx raider.

Desha / Zin'tulak / Starstalker <Blacktooth Grin>
Lordaeron belongs to the Amani!

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:29 pm

Xudo wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
This guy doesn't understand supply and demand and doesn't realize that its devs that control both the supply and the demand.

Axoc
Posts: 77

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Axoc » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:41 pm

1) +1

2) +1. This is especially noticeable in a pseudo-debuff (preventing a buff) sense in Spider Wing of Naxx, where Abolish Poison can't land on someone who is buff capped, in addition to places where it is noticeable in an "over-buff" sense in the ways Element mentioned in his post.

3) The reverse suggestion is not futureproofed. If for any reason this population boom were to decline or revert back to pre-boom numbers, the change would have lasting effects. Having variable spawn rates for gathering nodes in the way that devs have done variable spawn rates for quest mobs / lootable quest nodes is a good idea though. +1 to that part specifically.

4) +1

5) While the entire discussion from Discord regarding this point obviously isn't here on the forums, it was clear in that discussion that Element and others are ignorant of this topic. I don't mean that in an offensive way, it just is what it is and it can only be fixed via education. I do understand pearl-clutching at how rogue tanking SOUNDS, but even in the description here there are misconceptions of how it actually operates.

Without wbuffs, it requires near-bis (roughly 2% avoidance off of perfect bis) to work, meaning that at present only three rogues on the server are capable of (when fully raid buffed, fully consumed, and with flourish active) reaching avoidance cap. Rogues are not capable of soloing any raid mob in the game due solely to being over avoidance cap (any soloing rogues may be able to do on trash relies on them bursting the mob down before evasion fades, using a LIP, etc - i.e. the old methods that existed before flourish was added to the game). There has, to my knowledge, not been a rogue solo kill of a raid boss since the removal of world buffs, nor is it mathematically possible with gear currently in the game. With world buffs, full consumes, and getting MotW & Kings before zoning into the raid, rogues were able to solo kill Bloodlord Mandokir and Kurinnaxx, but that is no longer the case.

Specific concerns that were mentioned in the Discord conversation were that rogues could solo tank Patchwerk and Instructor Razuvious. Patchwerk is technically possible by having a team comp of a rogue tank, a shaman, and the rest ranged DPS, but to my knowledge this has never been done on this server, and it was never done in Classic. If I am wrong about this please post footage and/or logs of the fight. On Razuvious it is not possible for a rogue to solo tank the fight. Rogues can solo tank Razuvious himself, but they need someone else to pick up the adds.

The concept of "something more enjoyable" is extremely subjective and class changes should not revolve around what any one player thinks constitutes more enjoyable gameplay than another aspect of the same class. Better AoE damage was a late-Wrath change for rogues that contributed to class homogenization and is not in either the alpha or vanilla design philosophies for what the class entails.

6) Huge +1. Battle Chicken should reflect Classic, as many other things both on vMangos and this server in particular have been changed to reflect Classic.

7) Wbuffs should stay out of raids, but there are many inconsistencies on this server with how rage is generated by warriors when they take damage. Examples abound. Some are: the slime in Naxx (which doesn't even damage people whatsoever, much less generate rage from damaging them), Magmadar's fire in MC, lava in MC, Firemaw's flame buffet, etc. This would require no balancing changes, unlike nerfing warrior damage and buffing their rage generation (while a great idea on the surface, the balancing work under the hood could go wrong plenty of ways and could lead to a huge workload, whereas the rage generation fix would be copying known data values from Classic).

Considering wbuff usage during progression as a "cheat" is a clear example of why the claims about rogue tanking being a "cheat" are also invalid - wbuffs were not a "cheat" for progression, they were an intentionally-designed crutch, similar to how Flourish was intentionally designed by Turtle devs & how Turtle staff has cheered on the successful Naxx rogue tanks from the sidelines.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Kairion » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:48 am

On the consumables aspect of the post i fundamentally agree. There are little nuances like making tea with sugar a item without charges, so you could combine half used stacks etc, but the overall sentiment makes sense.
Same goes for buffcap. Not being able to use hots or certain buffs since it could push off expensive and hard to get buffs is as bad as the totems pushing off paladin blessings in the past.

On the warrior ragegain i disagree. Warrior is designed around lvl 60 blues or early epics and no worldbuffs in terms or rage generation. And its a fun class to play this way too. Stance dance to overpower, the decision when to use hs and when save the rage to utilize the spells with cd are part of warrior gameplay.
People got high on the feeling of unlimited rage due to massively inflated crit values and the withdrawal sure hurts a bit, but its an amount of rage they frankly should not have had to begin with.

But we play vanilla with changes, one could add more rage generation. But that is a direct dps warrior buff. So how would we compensate for that?

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:35 am

Balake wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:29 pm
Xudo wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
People whine so much about consumables, so price rise is very logical and come from players.
This guy doesn't understand supply and demand and doesn't realize that its devs that control both the supply and the demand.
It is PLAYERS who control supply and demand. Raiders have good goldfarms, treat themselves as "educated" and only buy weed from AH. Gatherers are educated too and they put weed with higher price because raiders anyway will pay.

Supply of herb in world is enough for all raiders. People collect enough to supply raids. It is only your ability to pay higher price raises AH costs.
Price rise will stop at the point when gatherers gold-per-hour will be equal to raiders gold-per-hour. When you decide "hey, it costs too much, I'd better gather it myself".
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
Posts: 1988

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Geojak » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:25 am

I agree with telabim and eko duration being to short and 20 min would be better
I also agree that buff maximum should be increased
But overall I mostly disagree with your points
- 1

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:48 am

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:35 am
It is PLAYERS who control supply and demand. Raiders have good goldfarms, treat themselves as "educated" and only buy weed from AH. Gatherers are educated too and they put weed with higher price because raiders anyway will pay.

Supply of herb in world is enough for all raiders. People collect enough to supply raids. It is only your ability to pay higher price raises AH costs.
Price rise will stop at the point when gatherers gold-per-hour will be equal to raiders gold-per-hour. When you decide "hey, it costs too much, I'd better gather it myself".
Supply is how much herbs enter the economy. You are wrong to say there are enough herbs for all raiders. You genuinely can't know shit YOU DONT HAVE A MAX LEVEL CHARACTER, stop talking out of your ass PLEASE.

This is not like zg bijou farms where anyone can enter an instance and farm whenever they want. These herbs are heavily contested. Felwood is empty, Blasted lands is empty, Winterspring is empty.

Demand is how much herbs people are using. If your suggestion is to simply use less consumes then you are deliberately missing the point by so much that you are a lost cause not worth talking to at all.

It's not hard to deduce that supply is controlled by the devs by how much herbs spawn, and demand is controlled by the devs by how much herbs the consumes cost and how long those consumes last.

If this trend of herbs becoming more expensive continues, this server will degenerate into classic mentality of botting and asking gold for every service. The raiders can't simply pick more herbs cause there's no herbs to pick so they'll sell mage portals and food for 5g, open boxes for 1g each, sell tanking runs for 50g and I don't blame em, I blame the scuffed state of the economy that forced them to do this to make ends meet.

Once again, farming gold to buy a thing or obtaining the thing yourself is the same thing, the currency spent is time not gold. Do you go to a person in real life complaining that eggs have become too expensive and you say to them just raise your own chickens?

What I think the truth is, is you're someone who uses gathering professions to make gold and you think this will help you make more. You won't make more gold, you'll just gather up less herbs per hour then sell them for more to end up with the same gold per hour you were making before. The solution is simple, make golden sansam and sungrass and firebloom actually useful for shit then everyone benefits. The herbalists and the alchemists and the consumers.

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:08 am

I do have high level donor character for my twink with gathering professions. It is not 60 lvl though. And I'm 100% sure that all your implications are theoretical. I do have practical vision. "Useless" herbs can be vendored anyway, but so far they are sold on AH a bit higher than to vendor, so everything is ok.
I'm not going to reply about herb anymore. You are wrong. Price of herb will raise until you start to refuse to buy them.
#nochanges to herbs
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:28 am

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:08 am
I do have high level donor character for my twink with gathering professions. It is not 60 lvl though. And I'm 100% sure that all your implications are theoretical. I do have practical vision. "Useless" herbs can be vendored anyway, but so far they are sold on AH a bit higher than to vendor, so everything is ok.
I'm not going to reply about herb anymore. You are wrong. Price of herb will raise until you start to refuse to buy them.
#nochanges to herbs
You just admitted you are holding your #nochanges stance only because you think you can materially profit from the server's problems.

>"Useless" herbs can be vendored anyway, but so far they are sold on AH a bit higher than to vendor, so everything is ok.
https://www.superduperauctions.com/turt ... ance/13464
You saying 50 more copper than vendor price is ok? That's literally less than the auction house fee.

>Price of herb will raise until you start to refuse to buy them.
You don't realize that people can't simply refuse to buy herbs. Or maybe you do realize that they have to keep buying them no matter how expensive they get, and you like seeing others be harmed.
You are resentful to everyone that's not yourself. If you had two options, make everyone happy or make only yourself happy, you'd choose to be the only happy person. It helps to be a little less selfish, but if you insist on the pragmatic "me first mentality", please educate yourself on video game economy and you'll realize #changes to herbs will make you more gold.

User avatar
Tawneyturtle
Posts: 187

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Tawneyturtle » Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:38 am

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:08 am
I do have high level donor character for my twink with gathering professions. It is not 60 lvl though. And I'm 100% sure that all your implications are theoretical. I do have practical vision. "Useless" herbs can be vendored anyway, but so far they are sold on AH a bit higher than to vendor, so everything is ok.
I'm not going to reply about herb anymore. You are wrong. Price of herb will raise until you start to refuse to buy them.
#nochanges to herbs
its ironic that you made a thread asking for low lvl PVP to be less gatekept by requesting first aid to be locked behind levels here, therefor making it easier viewtopic.php?t=4586 but you nonstop try to sabotage these threads when PVE players ask for content to be more accesible.
Tawney - High elf warrior 60
Feytale - High elf Mage 60 (Rank 1 Mage Naxx during WBs)
Have fun parsing not only at 19.

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:56 am

From your replies I see that you stopped thinking I talk shit because I don't know. And you start thinking that I talk this because I immoral person
Tawneyturtle wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:38 am
its ironic that you made a thread asking for low lvl PVP to be less gatekept by requesting first aid to be locked behind levels here, therefor making it easier viewtopic.php?t=4586 but you nonstop try to sabotage these threads when PVE players ask for content to be more accesible.
I made those threads because using high-level enchants and consumables are clear abuse of rules. Those rules were changed in later patches to partially fix those gaps.
Intent of blizzard on that looks like they misdesigned that part because it is low priority.

Making low level bg "easier" will change things from barely alive to active.
Making raids easier is about changing already active but hard to active but easy. T3 should be hard. It is engame afterall.
T3 is already easier than r14. No need to buff raiding at all.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:04 am

That's a lot of talking about raiding from someone who never raided here.

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:09 am

Balake wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:04 am
That's a lot of talking about raiding from someone who never raided here.
If thats your only argument, then I consider myself right about all things I talk about.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Balake
Posts: 735

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Balake » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:25 am

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:09 am
If thats your only argument, then I consider myself right about all things I talk about.
I have said tens of arguments throughout all these threads and you wouldn't be convinced because its not in your own interest. I'm not trying to convince you anymore, I know people can see right through your bullshit and those are the people that matter.
But if you want me to rebuke everything you said individually AGAIN here ya go

"Intent of blizzard on that looks like they misdesigned that part because it is low priority."
Cost of consumes is a misdesign by blizzard. They fixed it later with much lower consume costs, battle/guardian elixir split etc. Server population is higher than population was in 2007 vanilla. Server population is international and night of one side is full of day players from another side, so you can't stay up late to farm herbs like was possible in 2007 vanilla.

"Making low level bg "easier" will change things from barely alive to active." I'm not the one who brought that up and I don't care about it, but you know its ironic you say that, what you REALLY want to say is: Making the barrier to activities less prohibitive and scary will make people more willing to enter them.

Making raiding consumes cost less with make more people willing to participate in raids. More people raiding will mean demand stays the same but everyone individually spends less on them. Like I said before, win for the herbalist (sells a higher quantity of herbs and makes more gold), alchemist (makes more consumes and makes more gold), and the consumer (can afford his consumes now, more people will buy and the price will be fair).

"Making raids easier is about changing already active but hard to active but easy." I have no idea what this means

"T3 should be hard" Making consumes cheaper won't make T3 easier, it makes the entry requirement less prohibitive which is a good thing. So many people want to raid but they don't have the time to farm consumes so they can't.

"T3 is already easier than r14. No need to buff raiding at all." Comparing apples to oranges here, not relevant at all to the topic, but honestly it would be nicer if pvp consumes were cheaper too. The hardcore pvpers will need to grind less and the casual pvpers will feel less intimidated by the big consumes cost.

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:51 am

Could you repeat it all in other words? I don't understand your writing
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

User avatar
Snakeman
Posts: 80

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Snakeman » Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:13 pm

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:51 am
Could you repeat it all in other words? I don't understand your writing
idk, I understood Balake's last post just fine. Sounds more like a you problem

I can't help but agree with Balake, though. My main source of income is through herbalism and I've found absolutely zilch recently. Even Western Plaguelands has been totally barren on every visit. And it's a massive problem! Because you absolutely need consumes to clear T3 (if you show up to Loatheb without GSPP... idfk man), and most of their recipes require shit you can't even casually pick anymore because it's too hotly contested. If that's not a glaring issue with the game design, I don't know what else to say.

Like. These pots are a HARD requirement so your entire raid doesn't just drop dead after 2 minutes on certain bosses. You can't just not use them, or not buy the herbs that go into them, if you want to clear the raid. This is what it all hinges on now.
Your local troll artist and enthusiast.
Scottish, heavy RP-PvPer & former Naxx raider.

Desha / Zin'tulak / Starstalker <Blacktooth Grin>
Lordaeron belongs to the Amani!

Xudo
Posts: 1419

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Xudo » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:27 pm

I agree that some consumables are hard requirement. But the problem is that people exxagerating then they talk about required amount of consumables. For example they insist that Mighty rage potion is absolutely required, while it is not.

As a gatherer, you probably used to times when you can go out and collect all herbs from location yourself. Now you can't do it yourself because there are a lot of leveling folks with herbalism.
Guess what. Levelers don't go raids, but they do gather weed to sell it.

I monitor AH for a several days regarding Gromsblood and I see that amount of herb coming to ah is more than amount of herb sold on AH. Some people buy only 3 stacks of Gromsblood per day. Some people buy a lot. But on the next day, a lot of new herbs appear on the market.
Some people sell like 20 stacks of herbs, some 1-5-10 ones.

I agree that gathering herbs for raid by specific individual is not possible now. But it doesn't mean that there is shortage of herbs.
I was not right on advise "go gather yourself". If you are raider, you need some other means to farm gold. You should rely on crowd gathering and use AH.

If you see that price on herb is too high, then you should buy only hard requirements. When herb sellers put weed on ah and don't sell it, they will eventually lower the price because they need to compete with eachother. If you buy all herb regardless of the price, then price will rise.


BTW. Why any of you think that it is good thing that more people will participate in raids?
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Kairion
Posts: 866

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Kairion » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:48 am

You dont force herbslists to lower prices by not buying. There are a significant amount if raiders who will make the price stable at these higher levels. But i find it moronic how raiders dont cooperate in their guild in order to get consumables.

You can do farmruns in places like diremaul east or stratholme and pick the herbs & disenchant the greens and blues and split the profit, you can ensure your raid is killing the trash in zg that stands on herbing nodes, you can trade resources so everyone can farm what they are good at.

You can even put a tax on classes without many consumables to subsidize those who actually need it. Or you can just not use consumables on farm status mc & bwl.
Heck there is even the option to skip the occasional id to give people the time to farm back up when gold/bankstashes run dry.

Even just finding an alchemist who is willing to craft flasks for you from your own mats can save you a 15-29g profit margin over just buying it from the AH

Sure the price of consumables is currently a bit nasty and some way to increase the supply of herbs alongside the quitr significantly increasing serverpop would be nice. But it could be as simple as lowering herb respawn timers based on players in the zone or adding high level herbs to some more mobs droptables.

User avatar
Tawneyturtle
Posts: 187

Re: Raider's view on possible changes

Post by Tawneyturtle » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:58 am

Kairion wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:48 am
You dont force herbslists to lower prices by not buying. There are a significant amount if raiders who will make the price stable at these higher levels. But i find it moronic how raiders dont cooperate in their guild in order to get consumables.

You can do farmruns in places like diremaul east or stratholme and pick the herbs & disenchant the greens and blues and split the profit, you can ensure your raid is killing the trash in zg that stands on herbing nodes, you can trade resources so everyone can farm what they are good at.

You can even put a tax on classes without many consumables to subsidize those who actually need it. Or you can just not use consumables on farm status mc & bwl.
Heck there is even the option to skip the occasional id to give people the time to farm back up when gold/bankstashes run dry.

Even just finding an alchemist who is willing to craft flasks for you from your own mats can save you a 15-29g profit margin over just buying it from the AH

Sure the price of consumables is currently a bit nasty and some way to increase the supply of herbs alongside the quitr significantly increasing serverpop would be nice. But it could be as simple as lowering herb respawn timers based on players in the zone or adding high level herbs to some more mobs droptables.


Every guild has guild alchemists with all recipes, its also an issue of them needing 2 item slots for Dreamfoil/Gromsblood, 1 for Blotus and 1 for the unique mats and 1 for Vials. Thats 5 bag space per Flask, and you need to go to BWL or Scholo to make them. It's effort. It's infinitely easier to solo DME and ZG trash and sell the mats / rep items from there.
Tawney - High elf warrior 60
Feytale - High elf Mage 60 (Rank 1 Mage Naxx during WBs)
Have fun parsing not only at 19.

Post Reply