Crusader Strike should have cooldown

[Elenar]

It just feels weird, having melee ability with no CD.

Also it's better to give it cooldown and raise damage and bonus instead of making you spam it whenever necessary.

[Jammyxx]

I totally agree, In Arathi Basin this is too overpowered. Mr paladin pops bubble and keeps instant crusader striking everyone off the flag and there's nothing you can do to stop him.

Not to mention getting nearly globaled as a Feral Druid with 10k Armor n 7k hp... When will they fix this madness..

[Ugoboom]

Why is it weird? We warriors get to have high APM gameplay with sunder spam as tank and hamstring spam as dps. Why shouldn't rets also get to enjoy high APM gameplay?

But yes, Hammy you are 100% right about how its insanely giga op regarding AB and AV flags. 1 ret is now able to stop 6 to 9 players from turning a flag for a guaranted 12 seconds but likely more. Druid is no longer the flagspinner king and has lost one of its few pvp niches. I'm not sure how, but this needs fixing, in a way that doesn't hurt ret in PVE.

[Wrathweaver]

Why is it weird? We warriors get to have high APM gameplay with sunder spam as tank and hamstring spam as dps. Why shouldn't rets also get to enjoy high APM gameplay?

Because its a paladin not a warrior.
Has a hard shell, but not very sharp teeth.
It plays like a turtle not like a wolf.

[Gantulga]

Paladin should not have access to high burst on demand as it goes against the whole design of the class. Holy shock was an outlier but required a lot of commitment and assembling a set of "meme" gear while still not being anywhere close in power to the abomination that crusader + holy strike have created.

[Kefke]

Why is it weird? We warriors get to have high APM gameplay with sunder spam as tank and hamstring spam as dps. Why shouldn't rets also get to enjoy high APM gameplay?

Because its a paladin not a warrior.
Has a hard shell, but not very sharp teeth.
It plays like a turtle not like a wolf.

Many would consider that to be a design failure of the class. The question isn't how does Paladin play, but how should it play. To a lot of people, the image of the Paladin in Warcraft lore isn't as a tank or healbot. It's the guy who dives into a dangerous situation and starts busting heads, the one who turns the tide of battle, the guy who in the RTS was on even footing with ogres.

[Wrathweaver]

Why is it weird? We warriors get to have high APM gameplay with sunder spam as tank and hamstring spam as dps. Why shouldn't rets also get to enjoy high APM gameplay?

Because its a paladin not a warrior.
Has a hard shell, but not very sharp teeth.
It plays like a turtle not like a wolf.

Many would consider that to be a design failure of the class. The question isn't how does Paladin play, but how should it play. To a lot of people, the image of the Paladin in Warcraft lore isn't as a tank or healbot. It's the guy who dives into a dangerous situation and starts busting heads, the one who turns the tide of battle, the guy who in the RTS was on even footing with ogres.

The paladin is an immortal healer and a support buffer with heavy armor, thats how they played in WC3.
Vanilla wow is the most lore friendly paladin, no burst or sudden spells, just heavy armor and slow and steady holy damage untill the enemy is dead.
Juggling between different seals for mana or debuff to slightly increase their damage is the best they should do in my opinion.
Its not for everyone, but that is why there are warriors and other classes that have more of the direct playstyle.

[Kefke]

Because its a paladin not a warrior.
Has a hard shell, but not very sharp teeth.
It plays like a turtle not like a wolf.

Many would consider that to be a design failure of the class. The question isn't how does Paladin play, but how should it play. To a lot of people, the image of the Paladin in Warcraft lore isn't as a tank or healbot. It's the guy who dives into a dangerous situation and starts busting heads, the one who turns the tide of battle, the guy who in the RTS was on even footing with ogres.

The paladin is an immortal healer and a support buffer with heavy armor, thats how they played in WC3.
Vanilla wow is the most lore friendly paladin, no burst or sudden spells, just heavy armor and slow and steady holy damage untill the enemy is dead.
Juggling between different seals for mana or debuff to slightly increase their damage is the best they should do in my opinion.
Its not for everyone, but that is why there are warriors and other classes that have more of the direct playstyle.

Watch cutscenes.

Play Warcraft 2.

[Wrathweaver]

Many would consider that to be a design failure of the class. The question isn't how does Paladin play, but how should it play. To a lot of people, the image of the Paladin in Warcraft lore isn't as a tank or healbot. It's the guy who dives into a dangerous situation and starts busting heads, the one who turns the tide of battle, the guy who in the RTS was on even footing with ogres.

The paladin is an immortal healer and a support buffer with heavy armor, thats how they played in WC3.
Vanilla wow is the most lore friendly paladin, no burst or sudden spells, just heavy armor and slow and steady holy damage untill the enemy is dead.
Juggling between different seals for mana or debuff to slightly increase their damage is the best they should do in my opinion.
Its not for everyone, but that is why there are warriors and other classes that have more of the direct playstyle.

Watch cutscenes.

Play Warcraft 2.

They are powerful, but not in the direct damage department trought abilities.
Holy strike is a lore friendly spell and worthy addition to the paladin playstyle i think.
Crusader strike and jotc changes to proc weapons is something that should not have happened.

The only real issue i have is that you dont have a choice to skip crusader strike if you dont want to play retail paladin anymore, since the debuff from jotc is removed.
If jotc was bad, then it could have been buffed or changed slightly in the spirit of the original.

Add new things and spells, dont remove as i always say.

[Tasman]

I would change only one thing, in current impelementation of CS. And it would be, reworking on target debuff in to a buff, that stacks on paladin.

[Kairion]

Crusaderstrike in its current form has many many flaws.
1. It does not respect the proper hitcalculation. As many paladins have observed, the spell has a significantly worse chance to hit than one would expect for a given encounter. (Especially noticeable with +weapon skill)
2. Its debuff goes from okey (+150ish spelldamage) to massively busted (+437 Holy Spelldmg) with the right set of gear.
3. It can proc effects such as WF & Weaponoils despite clearly being listed on the Servers Website as not proccing ANY effects.

I think it would be best to embrace its existence as a worthwile attacking spell, but there is no way this can happen with how strong paladin currently already is in PvP situations. It would make them even more unreasonable to deal with.

It needs to have the numbers Libram and PvP gloves give adjusted. A fully stacked CS with the gloves and libram equiped adds 3 flasks worth of holy spelldamage against the target. This is unreasonable with the premium scaling paladin got on righteousness

Under no circumstances should it become a self buff. Smite priest is actually kinda viable partially due to the spelldamage Paladin can provide for them, and we should absolutely not buff consecration by giving paladin more spellpower against ALL targets.

[Kefke]

The paladin is an immortal healer and a support buffer with heavy armor, thats how they played in WC3.
Vanilla wow is the most lore friendly paladin, no burst or sudden spells, just heavy armor and slow and steady holy damage untill the enemy is dead.
Juggling between different seals for mana or debuff to slightly increase their damage is the best they should do in my opinion.
Its not for everyone, but that is why there are warriors and other classes that have more of the direct playstyle.

Watch cutscenes.

Play Warcraft 2.

They are powerful, but not in the direct damage department trought abilities.
Holy strike is a lore friendly spell and worthy addition to the paladin playstyle i think.
Crusader strike and jotc changes to proc weapons is something that should not have happened.

The only real issue i have is that you dont have a choice to skip crusader strike if you dont want to play retail paladin anymore, since the debuff from jotc is removed.
If jotc was bad, then it could have been buffed or changed slightly in the spirit of the original.

Add new things and spells, dont remove as i always say.

Crusader Strike was added because it's an ability that Blizzard designed for them, and removed. If the class has ended up underpowered (which it was when it comes to PVE), then the obvious place to start is giving it back abilities that were taken away. It's not even like it's an ability that they decided wasn't fitting, since every NPC Paladin in the game still got to keep it.

Given that, it was necessary to change what JotC did, or the class would be completely busted. Weapon procs is actually a good choice, since it leans into the fact that Ret Paladins already benefit from having big, slow weapons that proc more often. In fact, it opens up for them to use faster weapons, since they can use JotC as an alternate way to trigger weapons that might otherwise be less reliable.

The real problem with Paladins is that the devs at Blizzard didn't design them to be a tanking class, a DPS class, or a healer. They designed them to be overpowered in PVP. You can see that pretty clearly in the fact that a lot of their Vanilla abilities boil down to "hard counter to something another class can do".

[Wrathweaver]

Watch cutscenes.

Play Warcraft 2.

They are powerful, but not in the direct damage department trought abilities.
Holy strike is a lore friendly spell and worthy addition to the paladin playstyle i think.
Crusader strike and jotc changes to proc weapons is something that should not have happened.

The only real issue i have is that you dont have a choice to skip crusader strike if you dont want to play retail paladin anymore, since the debuff from jotc is removed.
If jotc was bad, then it could have been buffed or changed slightly in the spirit of the original.

Add new things and spells, dont remove as i always say.

Crusader Strike was added because it's an ability that Blizzard designed for them, and removed. If the class has ended up underpowered (which it was when it comes to PVE), then the obvious place to start is giving it back abilities that were taken away. It's not even like it's an ability that they decided wasn't fitting, since every NPC Paladin in the game still got to keep it.

Given that, it was necessary to change what JotC did, or the class would be completely busted. Weapon procs is actually a good choice, since it leans into the fact that Ret Paladins already benefit from having big, slow weapons that proc more often. In fact, it opens up for them to use faster weapons, since they can use JotC as an alternate way to trigger weapons that might otherwise be less reliable.

The real problem with Paladins is that the devs at Blizzard didn't design them to be a tanking class, a DPS class, or a healer. They designed them to be overpowered in PVP. You can see that pretty clearly in the fact that a lot of their Vanilla abilities boil down to "hard counter to something another class can do".

Holy strike was first next swing and then tested as instant, then removed, someone pointed it out to me before and thats true.
Crusader strike was added in TBC though, meaning we are playing TBC paladin on vanilla server.
It becomes something very different and feels very different.

Didnt like TBC paladin at all and i remember it very well playing BE paladin.
At the end of TBC i think they added this retarded 5 point system that every class is forced into in retail now.

Holy strike is fine because it is not a burst spell, it is next swing and it fits to the vanilla paladin experience.
When it comes to jotc, its about removal of a spell.
Dont have a problem at all with adding, just have a problem with removal of content that is so important for the vanilla paladin experience.

Dont think it will come back, but i hope one day they will change their mind.
Its about freedom to choose how you want to play or not.

Crusader strike could be a retribution talent, that would be fine, even if it was not a talent then by all means add and make them not being able to stack with jotc debuff if that is an issue.
Just dont force paladin players into playing TBC paladin, give players the freedom to choose.

Edit: sry to bring it up all the time, but my brain keeps thinking about it every day, going like this:
"Beep jotc Removed "Beep Jotc Removed" "Beep Jotc Removed"

[Ravenstone]

Crusader Strike was added because it's an ability that Blizzard designed for them, and removed. If the class has ended up underpowered (which it was when it comes to PVE), then the obvious place to start is giving it back abilities that were taken away. It's not even like it's an ability that they decided wasn't fitting, since every NPC Paladin in the game still got to keep it.

Crusader Strike was not really designed for Paladins per se, it was a placeholder spell for Paladin players to use in the Vanilla beta whilst they worked on the Seal system to replace said placeholders. It was never intended to be used by Paladins for Vanilla.

Given that, it was necessary to change what JotC did, or the class would be completely busted. Weapon procs is actually a good choice, since it leans into the fact that Ret Paladins already benefit from having big, slow weapons that proc more often. In fact, it opens up for them to use faster weapons, since they can use JotC as an alternate way to trigger weapons that might otherwise be less reliable.

I don't really understand how it giving a more reliable way to trigger faster weapon procs is helping the big slow weapon Paladin thematic. If anything making faster weapons more viable pushes them away from it. Paladins seem to go around as rare weapon collectors, discarding their normal weapons for a Ravager when they need to AoE. It's increadibly unthematic. They should have just fixed SotC and left JotC as is without introducing this broken Crusader Strike.

Paladin's require a big balancing act, as it is they are too survivable, too sustainable and deal too much damage. Crusader Strike is a huge part of the damage problem.

[Kefke]

They are powerful, but not in the direct damage department trought abilities.
Holy strike is a lore friendly spell and worthy addition to the paladin playstyle i think.
Crusader strike and jotc changes to proc weapons is something that should not have happened.

The only real issue i have is that you dont have a choice to skip crusader strike if you dont want to play retail paladin anymore, since the debuff from jotc is removed.
If jotc was bad, then it could have been buffed or changed slightly in the spirit of the original.

Add new things and spells, dont remove as i always say.

Crusader Strike was added because it's an ability that Blizzard designed for them, and removed. If the class has ended up underpowered (which it was when it comes to PVE), then the obvious place to start is giving it back abilities that were taken away. It's not even like it's an ability that they decided wasn't fitting, since every NPC Paladin in the game still got to keep it.

Given that, it was necessary to change what JotC did, or the class would be completely busted. Weapon procs is actually a good choice, since it leans into the fact that Ret Paladins already benefit from having big, slow weapons that proc more often. In fact, it opens up for them to use faster weapons, since they can use JotC as an alternate way to trigger weapons that might otherwise be less reliable.

The real problem with Paladins is that the devs at Blizzard didn't design them to be a tanking class, a DPS class, or a healer. They designed them to be overpowered in PVP. You can see that pretty clearly in the fact that a lot of their Vanilla abilities boil down to "hard counter to something another class can do".

Holy strike was first next swing and then tested as instant, then removed, someone pointed it out to me before and thats true.
Crusader strike was added in TBC though, meaning we are playing TBC paladin on vanilla server.
It becomes something very different and feels very different.

Didnt like TBC paladin at all and i remember it very well playing BE paladin.
At the end of TBC i think they added this retarded 5 point system that every class is forced into in retail now.

Holy strike is fine because it is not a burst spell, it is next swing and it fits to the vanilla paladin experience.
When it comes to jotc, its about removal of a spell.
Dont have a problem at all with adding, just have a problem with removal of content that is so important for the vanilla paladin experience.

Dont think it will come back, but i hope one day they will change their mind.
Its about freedom to choose how you want to play or not.

Crusader strike could be a retribution talent, that would be fine, even if it was not a talent then by all means add and make them not being able to stack with jotc debuff if that is an issue.
Just dont force paladin players into playing TBC paladin, give players the freedom to choose.

Crusader Strike doesn't come from TBC. Go fight Scarlet Crusade members. They have it. It was a part of the original kit, but removed, and then they brought it back in a different form later. You can go have a look at the patch notes, and see that it was taken away at the same time as Holy Strike.

Crusader Strike was not really designed for Paladins per se, it was a placeholder spell for Paladin players to use in the Vanilla beta whilst they worked on the Seal system to replace said placeholders. It was never intended to be used by Paladins for Vanilla.

Source?

I don't really understand how it giving a more reliable way to trigger faster weapon procs is helping the big slow weapon Paladin thematic. If anything making faster weapons more viable pushes them away from it. Paladins seem to go around as rare weapon collectors, discarding their normal weapons for a Ravager when they need to AoE. It's increadibly unthematic. They should have just fixed SotC and left JotC as is without introducing this broken Crusader Strike.

Paladin's require a big balancing act, as it is they are too survivable, too sustainable and deal too much damage. Crusader Strike is a huge part of the damage problem.

I never said that having big, slow weapons was thematic, nor do I actually think that it is. The classic Paladin weapon from the RTS days was a one-handed hammer. However, the class was made in WoW to favor big two-handers, at least for Ret. So, since big two-handers already go well with proc effects, it makes sense to take advantage of the kinds of gear that they'll already have when trying to buff them for PVE. The fact that it also makes it possible to get use out of weapons that would normally get passed on is, IMO, a bonus. It gives some items that might otherwise not really be good for anybody more value, and allows for some flexibility to go "Crusader Spec", without being total loot whores like Hunters end up being.

[Wrathweaver]

Crusader Strike was added because it's an ability that Blizzard designed for them, and removed. If the class has ended up underpowered (which it was when it comes to PVE), then the obvious place to start is giving it back abilities that were taken away. It's not even like it's an ability that they decided wasn't fitting, since every NPC Paladin in the game still got to keep it.

Crusader Strike was not really designed for Paladins per se, it was a placeholder spell for Paladin players to use in the Vanilla beta whilst they worked on the Seal system to replace said placeholders. It was never intended to be used by Paladins for Vanilla.

Given that, it was necessary to change what JotC did, or the class would be completely busted. Weapon procs is actually a good choice, since it leans into the fact that Ret Paladins already benefit from having big, slow weapons that proc more often. In fact, it opens up for them to use faster weapons, since they can use JotC as an alternate way to trigger weapons that might otherwise be less reliable.

I don't really understand how it giving a more reliable way to trigger faster weapon procs is helping the big slow weapon Paladin thematic. If anything making faster weapons more viable pushes them away from it. Paladins seem to go around as rare weapon collectors, discarding their normal weapons for a Ravager when they need to AoE. It's increadibly unthematic. They should have just fixed SotC and left JotC as is without introducing this broken Crusader Strike.

Paladin's require a big balancing act, as it is they are too survivable, too sustainable and deal too much damage. Crusader Strike is a huge part of the damage problem.

1+
Didnt know that, thanks for straightening that up.

[Ravenstone]

Source?

Not sure how to link to a specific time but 1:18:12 is where they talk about it with Kevin Jordan the class designer.

With regards to slow 2h vs fast 1h, atleast in WC3 the Paladin's were all to wield 2h maces, so it's before WoW that they pushed them in that direction. Which game are you talking about for them wielding 1h maces?

[Kefke]

Paladins first appeared in Warcraft II, where they were mounted units with a shield on one arm, and a hammer in their other hand. They were the Alliance equivalent unit to the Horde's ogre magi. Here's the original art for them.



As for the video you shared, I went back a little further to around 1:15:43, and the first thing Kevin says about Paladins is that they were the class that was the biggest failure at living up to what it was supposed to be. The next thing he says is that the Seal/Judgement system was "wonky", released unfinished, and not properly tested. Which sounds about right. The change from C.Strike/H.Strike to the Seal/Judgement came at the very end of Beta, and was so a last minute that there was still official information at release that had the old abilities from before the strike moves were cut, and when "Seal" was still being used in place of "Blessing".

I'll acknowledge that he does say that they were placeholder abilities, but he then goes on to reiterate that the Seal/Judgement system had issues and wasn't properly finished. So I think that's pretty telling, when trying to decide if things should be kept close to Vanilla. Even if it was intended, it didn't work. So if we acknowledge that, where do we go from there?

• Keep throwing band-aid fixes at a broken system until Turtle manages to do what Blizzard couldn't, and gave up on?
• Reset back to the Beta version of the class and try to refine the more thoroughly tested system, at the cost of a less distinct play style?
• Try to blend the two into something that melds the Paladin players enjoyed with the one Blizzard tried to make, as Turtle has been doing?
• Create a completely new play style that works differently?

I'm not sure if the last one is the best idea, but I have some thoughts on it. Might make a post about it, but I'm really not sure if replacing one poorly tested system with another is the way to go. Ideally I'd want to collaborate with someone else on it, and have some kind of a test bed before opening my mouth.

[Ravenstone]

They had swords with their shields in WC2, but thats neither here nor there. They progressed from 1h+shield to 2h in Warcraft 3 which is where a lot of the drive for 2handers comes from.

Yes the Paladins failed to live up to their class fantasy becauae they just sat in the back and healed. Yes the Seal/Judge system is wonky, but thats what Vanilla was. Blizzard didn't devote enough time to it because Paladins were going to raids as healers and that was enough. They didn't spend much time trying to improve the seals.

Now I'm not saying that we should just keep them completely as they are without trying to improve them, having played around with Holy Strike I've enjoyed it even if just for the improved leveling experience. But it's pretty broken, with Vengeance double dipping. It still feels like a good addition though if it were fixed.

But the way that JotC has been just gutted and replaced with a new ability (and a very unthematic one in my opinion) without trying to rework the problem component of the Seal, and then Crusader Strike stealing the JotC ability, it feels too much of a disservice to me. SotC feels just abandoned. Same with SoJustice. You just want to use the Judgements for them and switch back to SoR. And spamming Crusader Strikes to broken levels of spell power. It's all just led to a version of Paladin that isn't fun to play against, and feels completely broken when playing. We had a system that was unique to the Paladin that Blizzard didn't put enough effort into and could have been improved. Instead they've decided to copy Warriors without a regard for PvP balance. How much of the actual seal/judge system still gets used? It's basically just use SoR for 95% of content, and the others just judge and switch back. That feels very unvanilla to me.

I wrote a post previously about my take on Ret Paladin, it's not perfect but I think it's a step in a better direction. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. viewtopic.php?p=32304#p32304

[Jongyi]

Blizz devs admitted back in vanilla that paladin playstyle was their design mistake, failure on their design philosophy and it was not what they intended.
Turtle finally fixed it, making the paladin a lot more exciting and fun to play.
There is no need to nerf or to fix paladins.
If paladins are to be nerfed bcos if u think it is too OP, then Horde racials are also OP and needs to nerfed.

[Kairion]

Multiple things can be op at the same time, thats no justification for either to be in a broken state. You are right to suggest orc stun resistence should also be tweaked too.

[Wrathweaver]

making the paladin a lot more exciting and fun to play.
There is no need to nerf or to fix paladins.

My issue is that paladin is not exiting to play for me as they are now, and i think other players feel the same way.
The goal should be for us to have both playstyles.
Go back to a buffed vanilla jotc and still have a proc seal.
Perhaps crusader strike as well, with physical damage only and a cooldown.

[Freddofooz]

No.

[Karrados]

The people arguing here are hilarious. Paladins are flat out broken in PVP with their double-dipping of talents, bypassing 100% of armor and outrageous burst on a Class that is incredibly defensive to boot.

"But muh horde racials" Yeah, I can totally see how they work out so well against Paladins when they decide to focus you. There is no shame in admitting that something is overpowered but if you keep defending it despite the Devs themself admitting that Paladins are over the top in PVP then you are in denial.

Also: The Seal System was meant to be a replacement for the Strikes, Paladins got their strikes back AND they get to keep their Seals which was never intended for Paladins. It was one or the other, not both. While they might not be the "Powerhouse" in PVE they can still keep up rather well from what I have seen.

Throw on top that they are without a doubt the best PVP Class right now is just too much. It feels like Paladins are closer to TBC in terms of powers while everyone else is still stuck in Vanilla.

[Shamma]

My issue is that paladin is not exiting to play for me as they are now, and i think other players feel the same way.
The goal should be for us to have both playstyles.
Go back to a buffed vanilla jotc and still have a proc seal.
Perhaps crusader strike as well, with physical damage only and a cooldown.

Ofc paladin is not exciting to play... It is a paladin. The most noob friendly/boring class from vanilla. What do u expect?
Paladin is what Slow and Steady is all about.

[Wrathweaver]

The people arguing here are hilarious. Paladins are flat out broken in PVP with their double-dipping of talents, bypassing 100% of armor and outrageous burst on a Class that is incredibly defensive to boot.

"But muh horde racials" Yeah, I can totally see how they work out so well against Paladins when they decide to focus you. There is no shame in admitting that something is overpowered but if you keep defending it despite the Devs themself admitting that Paladins are over the top in PVP then you are in denial.

Also: The Seal System was meant to be a replacement for the Strikes, Paladins got their strikes back AND they get to keep their Seals which was never intended for Paladins. It was one or the other, not both. While they might not be the "Powerhouse" in PVE they can still keep up rather well from what I have seen.

Throw on top that they are without a doubt the best PVP Class right now is just too much. It feels like Paladins are closer to TBC in terms of powers while everyone else is still stuck in Vanilla.

Agree.
If it was up to me it would go back to the way it was before jotc change and crusader strike.
Hope that is in the cards.
Can hopefully atleast try to find a balanced compromise bringing vanilla jotc back, perhaps a new nerfed new proc seal if its overpowered and if people must have it, crusader strike without the holy damage debuff with a long cooldown.
edit: But i dont think paladins should have crusader strike since its vanilla, only if people really must have it.

[Kefke]

My issue is that paladin is not exiting to play for me as they are now, and i think other players feel the same way.
The goal should be for us to have both playstyles.
Go back to a buffed vanilla jotc and still have a proc seal.
Perhaps crusader strike as well, with physical damage only and a cooldown.

Ofc paladin is not exciting to play... It is a paladin. The most noob friendly/boring class from vanilla. What do u expect?
Paladin is what Slow and Steady is all about.

By that logic, Turtle should remove all the custom content from the game. Everything that Vanilla did is the way the game is supposed to be, and nothing should ever attempt to change or improve upon it. (Nevermind that Blizzard devs have gone on record as saying that the design of the Paladin class was their biggest mistake.)

[Shamma]

My issue is that paladin is not exiting to play for me as they are now, and i think other players feel the same way.
The goal should be for us to have both playstyles.
Go back to a buffed vanilla jotc and still have a proc seal.
Perhaps crusader strike as well, with physical damage only and a cooldown.

Ofc paladin is not exciting to play... It is a paladin. The most noob friendly/boring class from vanilla. What do u expect?
Paladin is what Slow and Steady is all about.

By that logic, Turtle should remove all the custom content from the game. Everything that Vanilla did is the way the game is supposed to be, and nothing should ever attempt to change or improve upon it. (Nevermind that Blizzard devs have gone on record as saying that the design of the Paladin class was their biggest mistake.)

Complaining paladin is not exciting is like complaining warrior is melee... Do some damn research before u roll something. It is not like the game has not been out forever!

[Kefke]

Ofc paladin is not exciting to play... It is a paladin. The most noob friendly/boring class from vanilla. What do u expect?
Paladin is what Slow and Steady is all about.

By that logic, Turtle should remove all the custom content from the game. Everything that Vanilla did is the way the game is supposed to be, and nothing should ever attempt to change or improve upon it. (Nevermind that Blizzard devs have gone on record as saying that the design of the Paladin class was their biggest mistake.)

Complaining paladin is not exciting is like complaining warrior is melee... Do some damn research before u roll something. It is not like the game has not been out forever!

Once again, BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAID IT WAS DESIGNED WRONG.

[Shamma]

By that logic, Turtle should remove all the custom content from the game. Everything that Vanilla did is the way the game is supposed to be, and nothing should ever attempt to change or improve upon it. (Nevermind that Blizzard devs have gone on record as saying that the design of the Paladin class was their biggest mistake.)

Complaining paladin is not exciting is like complaining warrior is melee... Do some damn research before u roll something. It is not like the game has not been out forever!

Once again, BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAID IT WAS DESIGNED WRONG.

OK. And? What is the solution?! Redesign it from the ground up to be a completely different class to vanilla paladin?!

[Jongyi]

The people arguing here are hilarious. Paladins are flat out broken in PVP with their double-dipping of talents, bypassing 100% of armor and outrageous burst on a Class that is incredibly defensive to boot.

"But muh horde racials" Yeah, I can totally see how they work out so well against Paladins when they decide to focus you. There is no shame in admitting that something is overpowered but if you keep defending it despite the Devs themself admitting that Paladins are over the top in PVP then you are in denial.

Also: The Seal System was meant to be a replacement for the Strikes, Paladins got their strikes back AND they get to keep their Seals which was never intended for Paladins. It was one or the other, not both. While they might not be the "Powerhouse" in PVE they can still keep up rather well from what I have seen.

Throw on top that they are without a doubt the best PVP Class right now is just too much. It feels like Paladins are closer to TBC in terms of powers while everyone else is still stuck in Vanilla.

You do not speak for all of us, 'bro'
Paladin's buff are meant to balance OP Horde racials in vanilla. Paladins got strikes which were taken away from them at the first place.
If you are ranting about paladins bcos some paladins spank in BG you but conveniently ignore broken Horde racial in vanilla design, then you are biased

[Jongyi]

Complaining paladin is not exciting is like complaining warrior is melee... Do some damn research before u roll something. It is not like the game has not been out forever!

Once again, BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAID IT WAS DESIGNED WRONG.

OK. And? What is the solution?! Redesign it from the ground up to be a completely different class to vanilla paladin?!

Solutions for paladins are already made by turtle devs. They are now fun and exciting to play.

[Kefke]

Complaining paladin is not exciting is like complaining warrior is melee... Do some damn research before u roll something. It is not like the game has not been out forever!

Once again, BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAID IT WAS DESIGNED WRONG.

OK. And? What is the solution?! Redesign it from the ground up to be a completely different class to vanilla paladin?!

Um...yes? Or go back to the Beta version. If the point of Turtle is to fix things that were broken, finish things that were unfinished, and flesh out things that weren't expanded upon, well, J&S Paladin is all of those things.

Blizzard ran out of time and decided to put out what they had at the eleventh hour, despite it being a completely untested design that drastically changed the class from how it had functioned during all of development. Apparently because of a perception that a "unique" play style was more important than a well-tested and balanced one. By the dev's own admission, it wasn't ready, didn't play well, and wasn't thematically fitting for the class. Yes, the Beta Paladin was only a placeholder, but it was also the version of the class the entirety of the game's original testing and balancing used. The decision to leave J&S-din so long basically boiled down to the game having already gone to commercial release, and it being too late to make any more sweeping class changes, a problem that Turtle doesn't have to worry about.

People being used to the broken version it isn't a good reason to keep something that was well known to be a mistake.

[Ravenstone]

Once again, BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAID IT WAS DESIGNED WRONG.

He said it was wonky, but he was pretty happy with it. 1:21:19 from the video I linked. He says it was pretty good, but he didn't have enough time to tweak it and iterate on it and perfect.

That doesn't sound like gut the whole system and add strikes. He said he wanted it to be improved upon.

Seal/Judge is Vanilla Paladin. Yes it can be improved upon. Paladins are broken at the moment and Crusader Strike is to blame.

[Kairion]

The people arguing here are hilarious. Paladins are flat out broken in PVP with their double-dipping of talents, bypassing 100% of armor and outrageous burst on a Class that is incredibly defensive to boot.

"But muh horde racials" Yeah, I can totally see how they work out so well against Paladins when they decide to focus you. There is no shame in admitting that something is overpowered but if you keep defending it despite the Devs themself admitting that Paladins are over the top in PVP then you are in denial.

Also: The Seal System was meant to be a replacement for the Strikes, Paladins got their strikes back AND they get to keep their Seals which was never intended for Paladins. It was one or the other, not both. While they might not be the "Powerhouse" in PVE they can still keep up rather well from what I have seen.

Throw on top that they are without a doubt the best PVP Class right now is just too much. It feels like Paladins are closer to TBC in terms of powers while everyone else is still stuck in Vanilla.

You do not speak for all of us, 'bro'
Paladin's buff are meant to balance OP Horde racials in vanilla. Paladins got strikes which were taken away from them at the first place.
If you are ranting about paladins bcos some paladins spank in BG you but conveniently ignore broken Horde racial in vanilla design, then you are biased

Paladins are buffed because they suck in raid pve. Which mainly was because raid encounters are usually not designed around paladins strengths. You dont need a melee dps who can selfheal and survive cleave or a aoe tank in most bossfights. Also a lot of paladins power comes from blessings. Which lets people believe paladin is much worse than he actually is. Since the contribution to the raid that these provide do not show up for the paladin in dps meters.
Also he is a potent healer that can still provide all the buffs. Making ret & prot not desirable in raids.

That is the reason paladin was adjusted on turtle. If you honestly believe paladin was buffed because of his poor pvp performace, you suck at pvping. Paladin is extremely good in group fights because he has answers to most challenges the horde can throw at you. And while he has bad matchups against priest, shaman and warlock, none of these matchups are unwinnable.

Even Warriors - the kings of classic pvp get dumpstered in their bad matchups. Why does paladin need to get buffed to the point where he almost oneshots his bad matchups?