Seperate HC server

[Remmo87]

Has there ever been suggestions or proposals to
make a seperate server for HC only?
This seems for me to be a good idea.
What are you guys take on it?

It could begin with forcing all HC players to transfer to the new server, and making new characters on the current server unable to go HC.

And likewise, automatically making characters HC that are created on the new server.

[Ashstache]

Awful idea, you'd have maybe 100 people playing on it. The playerbase here is already tiny and you're proposing to split it further.

[Illyane]

A really, really, really bad idea.

First (population): New lvl 60 post-HardCore join the main WoW server turtle population after their leveling and challenge, which means that the separation will weaken the main server in terms of population pool. Literally, you will just take a generously estimated 1/4 of the new level 60 players out of TWOW for the benefit of none (increasing waiting time for PVP, less dungeons and raids overhaul).
Second (symbolic): The immortal title and the mounts that go with it will be less interesting to have, as this is what makes the difference between the journey of a normal player and a HC player. On a server filled exclusively with HC players, the title will simply be worthless.
Third ("manpower"): You will increase the workload of the main development and tech team behind this server, which means that fewer things will be fixed or implemented on both servers and the GMs will have a harder time moderating the servers.

The only people who will be somewhat happy with this proposal are the full HC players who want to stay HC without reaching level 59, and even then it's not sure. But the question is: is there really anything on TurtleWoW that prevents HC players from having fun? They are not hindered in their play by the rest of the server. So why separate them?

[Remmo87]

I would not say it's tiny, but that's up to interpretation i guess.

About playerbase:
My thoughts is that, if HC and SC players can't really interact with each other anyways, what's the point in having them together? It only makes finding people to play with more difficult as you have to ask if they are HC or non HC before you can start planning.

I'm not saying its a good idea for sure.
But your argument about playerbase amount, doesn't convince me it's not.

About the title, yeah it makes the immortal titel useless. Personally not a problem for me.

The argument about manpower...
When i say server, i actually mean realm. Maybe that's a big mistake from my part, wording it server to begin with. My understanding is that a second realm would not be different configuration wise. And therefore, would not require a dedicated team for that.
Maybe I'm wrong?

[Jammyxx]

Would be mostly a pure leveling server, main reason is alot of people I've spoken to that reach 60 on their HC, just reroll and do the challenge again, very few actually do endgame with their 60, and the people who wanted to, there would hardly be any people to do raids with etc and would obviously be no BGs / PvP

Obviously there are some that do, but the majority just reroll a new HC char.

[Syrathegreat]

My thoughts is that, if HC and SC players can't really interact with each other anyways, what's the point in having them together? It only makes finding people to play with more difficult as you have to ask if they are HC or non HC before you can start planning.

Almost all levelling HC are in Still Alive so you can instantly plan. Plus you can still talk with non-HC through world chat, whispers and other channels. So it still feels like a living breathing server.

I really think having a separate HC server would lose a lot of the community, as well as the sense of people cheering you on that you get here. Like the chorus of Fs and Gz you get in world chat when there's an HC notification.

[Remmo87]

Ok. Good points in the end there. Might have changed my mind.

[Shamma]

HC Server is a pipe dream to dedicated HC players. For them it is going to be really good. Blizz is toying with the idea of opening a season mortal server for SoM 2.

Would be great, but unfortunately the pop on Turtle is too low for this. When <Still Alive> starts reaching 1k online levelers every day, then we can bring it to the Turtle devs to give us a mortal realm.

[Nain000]

Terrible idea

[Ibux]

meh. i think it's cool that softcore players and harcore players are on the same server. makes the world feel more alive during the leveling experience. not everyone who takes the challenge will only play hardcore. some play both. some just want the title and mount.

[Kefke]

I don't personally like the idea of a separate hardcore server. It would split the community and cost extra to run and maintain (plus needing GMs). Plus...I don't really see a reason for it? It's not like it would protect hardcores from getting trolled, since people would presumably just go on the Hardcore server to bother them. For "softcore" characters...well, personally I think that it's cool when I'm playing my softcore characters and see a high level Hardcore go by. I like to throw them a friendly buff, and wish them luck on their journey. (And when I'm on my Hardcore toon, I'm doing it to learn to be better at the game, so I appreciate having the same world as everyone else to learn in.)

[Mac]

A smaller hardcore server sounds incredibly comfy. As I type this, there's over 400 <Still Alive> players online. Good numbers for a hardcore server, and that's not counting hardcores in other guilds or unguilded.

As for it splitting the server's population, hardcores are already effectively split off from the server population due to the nature of the ruleset. Can't dungeon with them, can't group with them, can't trade with them. The only thing they can do is compete with you for quest mobs and other resources. Effectively all the downsides of having a higher population with none of the upsides. Hardcores would be given the option to transfer to the normal server at 60 and re-integrate with the rest of the population, which is how it works now.

Griefing of hardcores would decrease immensely. You wouldn't have situations like the one with Mirage Raceway where it had to be removed for normal players for the longest time because it was accidentally flagging hardcores and causing them to get killed. In fact, you could implement things like scourge invasions on the normal server without fear of disrupting play for hardcores.

But ultimately it probably isn't going to happen so it's a moot point.

[Redmagejoe]

This proposal has been made again and again and Staff has made a hardline stance that it will not happen. No ambiguous language, "We are not doing this" in essence.

[Elisleris]

It is bad idea to decrease whole server's population by splitting people to two realms.

[Morgananeruda]

I never in a million years will do HC but I greatly enjoy seeing them and hearing about their progression or demise on world chat etc.
The tombstones are an extra amusing touch.
Lets stay together.

[Xudo]

I'm all for staying together.
When I see HC, I try to help him: buff, heal if possible, draw some attention of mobs.
They do the challenge I always wanted to do, but probably wont really do.
They deserve our honor, not ghetto.

Most of reasons "against" HC looks same as all reasons of populated and popular server.
Like "too much competition for quests", "some guys run around and ignore your invitation".
So complaints look like "we don't like populated server, lets slice it and move part of players to separate realm".

Devs probably won't do HC server because HC server mean "lets implement special world designed for HC". Special positions and stats of NPCs, special items and so on. This is way too much work to support second world.

[Ugoboom]

Devs dont want to do this because lower population number to people to advertise, and running 2x copies of vmangos is a significant increase of cpu load for the hardware they are using.

We the people dont want this to happen because it splits us up and the positive HC/normal interactions we see right now would go away. Even on this alone, the positive interactions outweigh the negative.

So yeah I dont see any reason for turtle staff to change their mind and say yes to this.

[Redmagejoe]

Just waiting for a staffer to come in and post the usual "we have no plans to do this", close the thread, and we'll have peace on these forums until someone makes this same thread again in about a month.

[Shamma]

Just waiting for a staffer to come in and post the usual "we have no plans to do this", close the thread, and we'll have peace on these forums until someone makes this same thread again in about a month.

While this is a fair anticipation, let me remind u - HC60 had been turned down by Torta and the staff many times before. Yet ppl like me kept pushing and bugging them and now it is announced to be in 1.16.6.

So IF ENOUGH ppl want and need a HC realm, this is a possibility. The condition for this is however very far from being fulfilled at present.

[Mac]

While this is a fair anticipation, let me remind u - HC60 had been turned down by Torta and the staff many times before. Yet ppl like me kept pushing and bugging them and now it is announced to be in 1.16.6.

So IF ENOUGH ppl want and need a HC realm, this is a possibility. The condition for this is however very far from being fulfilled at present.

True that just because they said no before doesn’t mean that can’t change but a new server is a really big ask so I wouldn’t hold my breath on it.

[Allknighty]

I play HC and don't want segregation, thanks.

[Skumbanana]

I'm against having a HC realm, but something needs to be done to handle the toxicity around HC vs Normal players. It's getting absurd.

[Jsb]

To those people in favor of having HC and non-HC people play in parallel on the same server. What would be some examples of "positive interaction" between HC and non-HC players?

[Redmagejoe]

To those people in favor of having HC and non-HC people play in parallel on the same server. What would be some examples of "positive interaction" between HC and non-HC players?

Seeing funny death messages and speculating or meme-ing about it.
Seeing an n*10 victory messages and cheering on the HCs.
Seeing an HC in the wild and throwing them a buff or heal to help them out.
Saving an HC and feeling like you've just done some heroic feat. Thinking maybe they'll make it to 60 and you can then reminisce about that one close call.

Things of this nature. You don't have to have glued to the hip interaction with another player to derive some positive influence from their presence. This is a social game, and if the only argument is "well MECHANICS, therefore" then you're missing the entire point and maybe you should find a single-player game. By having any interaction, even them simply existing in the same environment as you, you are intrinsically having a social interaction. It's not different from going to a store, interacting with NONE of the other customers, but you still derive some psychological benefit from being in the presence of other people that, deprived of, you would go stir crazy.

[Jsb]

This is a social game, and if the only argument is "well MECHANICS, therefore" then you're missing the entire point and maybe you should find a single-player game. By having any interaction, even them simply existing in the same environment as you, you are intrinsically having a social interaction. It's not different from going to a store, interacting with NONE of the other customers, but you still derive some psychological benefit from being in the presence of other people that, deprived of, you would go stir crazy.

Yes, I want to play a social game with a world that feels immersive and interactive and where other players don't just serve as "background decoration".

You see these players in the world and at first it appears as if you could play with them, but then it turns out they live in a parallel universe where you cannot interact with them in any meaningful gameplay way. Even worse, while you cannot play together with them, you still end up competing with them for resources (mobs, lootables, etc.), which rather leads to animosity than to a "positive psychological benefit".

[Redmagejoe]

Just because you cannot be in a party with them or trade with them does not mean that you cannot interact with them in any meaningful way. Nor do they live in a parallel universe. You have a very high metric for "interaction". It doesn't seem like anything will change your mind because you have a definition of player interaction that is strictly different from most people's. You base it entirely upon whether you can both use 100% of the game mechanics at all times unconditionally. That is not what your previous words mean, so please change your words to better clarify what you actually mean.

[Drubarrymooer]

I don't understand the reason for having one though. There's already a default HC lvling guild. There are also guilds that don't mind hosting HC players. Just don't pvp and you're g2g. I buff and heal as many HC players as I can.

[Ugoboom]

Hmmm, I don't think its possible in this game client, but what if hardcore players had Orange names, or something to make them stand out to newcomers as different. IDK.

[Karrados]

To anyone claiming this would split the community: This is already the case as you cannot trade/group/quest with Hardcore Players.

For all intents and purposes they ARE split from non-HC. So arguing that it would "Split the community" is moot as the HC players already did that themself.

With that said they have no intention of splitting Turtle into two servers as they would no longer be able to artificially boost their numbers that way.

[Redmagejoe]

To anyone claiming this would split the community: This is already the case as you cannot trade/group/quest with Hardcore Players.

For all intents and purposes they ARE split from non-HC. So arguing that it would "Split the community" is moot as the HC players already did that themself.

With that said they have no intention of splitting Turtle into two servers as they would no longer be able to artificially boost their numbers that way.

This post was made by a player who lives in his own little echo chamber.

[Karrados]

To anyone claiming this would split the community: This is already the case as you cannot trade/group/quest with Hardcore Players.

For all intents and purposes they ARE split from non-HC. So arguing that it would "Split the community" is moot as the HC players already did that themself.

With that said they have no intention of splitting Turtle into two servers as they would no longer be able to artificially boost their numbers that way.

This post was made by a player who lives in his own little echo chamber.

Hey, by all means go ahead if you want to think that. It is your right. It's not like the points you listed above are in any way meaningful interactions and saving a HC character goes against the whole challenge of doing this yourself.

[Redmagejoe]

The issue here is that I can actually perceive the players behind the characters and can have meaningful interactions with them on a SOCIAL platform, whereas your comments, much like others who suggest that HC characters "exist in their own bubble" frame them as little more than NPCs. I find that perspective very troubling, because all of the importance is being placed on the mechanical character rather than the community member in your community.

By discussing the idea that they should be forcefully segregated, and in fact by laughably implying that they have "chosen to already segregate themselves" is a gross over-simplification of the entire mechanic and ignores any nuance to the issue. The idea that every player doing HC is the exact same person with identical thought processes and identical degrees of desire to continue to interact with the rest of the server and community at large is dismissive and smacks of egocentrist logic. In short, completely unhelpful, unconstructive, and borderline antisocial.

Consider, for example, that a player who has 9 normal characters decides to roll an HC character and chat with the rest of their friends and guildmates on the main server, all of them cheering them on while they strive to prove themselves to their chums. You want this person to be completely cut off from their social circle while playing their HC character, and for what reason? Because of the possibility they might make one of your quests take longer to complete, no different than if a perpetual party-decliner (don't pretend they don't exist) was also doing the same quest? Should we start forcing players on the same quest who turn down party invites to go to their own server?

[Andromath]

I think you both bring up good points.

Hardcore characters keep the server feeling alive, and add a lot to the community by their presence, discussion, and those messages that spring up about their milestones and their failures. At the same time, effectively having game mechanics limited to make it impossible to play with them is problematic.

Rather than a separate server, I think the answer would be better tailored to making it possible to engage with other players. For example, mob tagging. If a Hardcore character tags a mob, non-hardcore characters should also be able to tag it and get credit for the kill and the ability to loot it separately. The spawn rate of quest items you interact with to collect should be adjusted to make them much more frequently available.

Applying these changes would drastically open up the open-world experience with hardcore characters. Maybe you still can't join a party to kill Hogger, but you can work together towards that goal. Not being able to trade is also unfortunate, but if Hardcore Characters could exchange their own items for non-hardcore character's copper/silver/gold alone, then maybe that'd help balance out a struggle for resources.

I don't know if any of these suggestions are remotely possible to implement, but I'd like to think the idea can still work: ease open-world restrictions for non-hardcore players to engage more meaningfully with hardcore players, without diminishing the difficulty of hardcore gameplay in the process.

[Redmagejoe]

The spawn rate of quest items you interact with to collect should be adjusted to make them much more frequently available.

This is already being adjusted. In recent patches, all unique quest-related world objects (boxes, books, etc) have had their respawn timers reduced to mere seconds, and probably more are on the way. This doesn't apply to objects that are not unique, though, like "touch flowers: 0/10"

Bear in mind, however, that even in a party you cannot share these nodes and you're already competing with non-HC players and party members, so this does not apply to the current discussion as it is not a uniquely HC-relevant issue.

To those scant few in favor of a separate HC server (and believe me, you ARE the vocal minority), do not use the words "meaningful interactions" in a social game if you are going to then point to game mechanics. You do not have to be on the same map doing the exact same thing 24/7 with your friends and guildmates, yet you benefit from interactions with them. You enjoy a social interaction and that is the primary reason many people choose vanilla WoW over future expansions. HC character players are 100% capable of fully meaningfully engaging with every other player on the server, since it is a social platform. The moment you dismiss that as being unimportant in favor of being able to party together and share quests... You've forsaken the entire discussion.

This is not retail. This is not BfA, Legion, Shadowlands, whatever. You are not entitled to a streamlined, convenient, single-player experience. You will experience competition, even from non HCs. You will experience inconvenience. You will experience frustration. Recognize it comes with the territory of the design philosophy of the expansion you chose. Be mature and accept the lows along with the highs, and don't take your frustrations out on your fellow players and make it "their fault".

[Redmagejoe]

Allow me to present a hypothetical (spoiler: These are real scenarios that have happened hundreds of times on this server across all the players over the years, not just made up fantasies). You are doing a quest, let's say... Incendosaurs in Searing Gorge.

Would you rather:
A) Encounter a non-HC also doing the quest, invite them to a party, have the player never say a word to you or even seem to be on the same page as you, but you kill your mobs faster and more efficiently, and thus finish the quest faster, or
B) Encounter a HC also doing the quest, you both are sharing the spawns, and the HC is being chummy and trying to chat with you the whole time, keeping you engaged while you do an otherwise tedious grind?

Of course these examples are not all interactions in these two scenarios, but I feel this is an important litmus test for those posting in this thread.