World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
I think a lot of people are focusing on the wrong problems here. Listing various reasons why removing world buffs are bad, such as warrior stacking or raids taking too long. It sounds more like the root of the problem is that many specs/classes are just not good enough for raid dps. Buffing a bunch of them to make warrior stacking less appealing would be a better solution.
The other issue I'm seeing a lot in this thread is raids taking way too long. I agree they do take WAY too long without world buffs. Again this is not an issue with world buffs but rather the raids themselves. Time spent to clear a raid can be tuned in the raid itself (Too much trash = a lot of time wasted just clearing pointless stuff). Trash respawning after multiple wipes is another unnecessary time sink. (Sunwell was my worst memory of this nonsense) As for raid difficulty without world buffs, again that's just an issue with other classes/specs performing poorly in comparison to warrior dps.
TLDR;
- Buff the bad classes/specs to be more in line with warrior raid dps
- Tweak trash in raids to remove time sinks.
The other issue I'm seeing a lot in this thread is raids taking way too long. I agree they do take WAY too long without world buffs. Again this is not an issue with world buffs but rather the raids themselves. Time spent to clear a raid can be tuned in the raid itself (Too much trash = a lot of time wasted just clearing pointless stuff). Trash respawning after multiple wipes is another unnecessary time sink. (Sunwell was my worst memory of this nonsense) As for raid difficulty without world buffs, again that's just an issue with other classes/specs performing poorly in comparison to warrior dps.
TLDR;
- Buff the bad classes/specs to be more in line with warrior raid dps
- Tweak trash in raids to remove time sinks.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
You cant just "buff other classes and leave worldbuffs in". the classes would have to align in powerlevel with and without worldbuffs.
If Enhancer and Rogue are equal in dps with worldbuffs, Rogue would have to be worse without it than shaman as he scales better with the extra ap & crit the wbs povide. By the nature of the game and the fact that classes scale differently with gear, you can never hit perfect balance. And having worldbuffs in just makes the proble worse as you have to balance in two circumstances rather than one
But the most important part of the discussion is completely ignored here. Two classes have some of their skillset limited & neutered because stacking class buffs + wbs is too powerful. Why exactly should these classes continue to get shafted just to keep wbs around.
Anyone arguing we need wbs for meme specs to be viable has to aknowledge that ele & enhancer would be much better for the raid if they could actively use their totems to support their group
If Enhancer and Rogue are equal in dps with worldbuffs, Rogue would have to be worse without it than shaman as he scales better with the extra ap & crit the wbs povide. By the nature of the game and the fact that classes scale differently with gear, you can never hit perfect balance. And having worldbuffs in just makes the proble worse as you have to balance in two circumstances rather than one
But the most important part of the discussion is completely ignored here. Two classes have some of their skillset limited & neutered because stacking class buffs + wbs is too powerful. Why exactly should these classes continue to get shafted just to keep wbs around.
Anyone arguing we need wbs for meme specs to be viable has to aknowledge that ele & enhancer would be much better for the raid if they could actively use their totems to support their group
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Funny how u present the correct facts, but draw the WRONG conclusion. Do NOT buff many classes/specs, instead NERF the offender. Make warriors do less dmg to be more in line with EVERYBODY else, NOT the other way around. Raids are easy as they are. Warriors are not stacked, cos the raids are difficult, but because raiders want to see bigger numbers.Nyronic wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:24 amI think a lot of people are focusing on the wrong problems here. Listing various reasons why removing world buffs are bad, such as warrior stacking or raids taking too long. It sounds more like the root of the problem is that many specs/classes are just not good enough for raid dps. Buffing a bunch of them to make warrior stacking less appealing would be a better solution.
The other issue I'm seeing a lot in this thread is raids taking way too long. I agree they do take WAY too long without world buffs. Again this is not an issue with world buffs but rather the raids themselves. Time spent to clear a raid can be tuned in the raid itself (Too much trash = a lot of time wasted just clearing pointless stuff). Trash respawning after multiple wipes is another unnecessary time sink. (Sunwell was my worst memory of this nonsense) As for raid difficulty without world buffs, again that's just an issue with other classes/specs performing poorly in comparison to warrior dps.
TLDR;
- Buff the bad classes/specs to be more in line with warrior raid dps
- Tweak trash in raids to remove time sinks.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Just a thought as my insomnia bothers me, but rather than removing world buffs in raids, what about removing world buff stacking overall? Make people choose the one buff that benefits them most, perhaps making the buffs that only do one thing persist through death to make them an attractive alternative to the ones with multiple effects. To prevent players having their buffs overwritten, the city buffs could be opt-in, like how you give confirmation to join a quest (assuming this is possible), but on the other hand, choosing to avoid the areas where a buff one doesn't want drops would also incentivise use of other cities.
Pros:
Pros:
- World buffs remain relevant to raiding, encouraging max-level characters to venture into the world.
- Onyxia's Lair and Dire Maul retain their importance, at least for some players.
- New raiding groups can still get at least some of the benefit of having world buffs.
- It opens the door for entirely new world buffs to be added to incentivise content, without the issue of new buffs causing power creep.
- Making buffs not stack would be a change that affects the entire server, rather than just raiding. [Though buff stacking is less of a thing for levelling players.]
- There is the potential for "buff trolling" to attempt to deliberately override people's buffs in cities where buffs drop. Particularly in Orgrimar, which is home to two city buffs. [Aside from possibly making these opt-in, could one of the Orgrimar buffs be moved to another location to make this less likely to happen?]
- If players can only have one world buff at a time, it makes them more vulnerable to dispelling. [I haven't really heard about this being much of an issue on Turtle, but I honestly don't know.]
- Even if some existing world buffs are tweaked, may still result in there being a meta "best" for people's one world buff, leading to other buff locations being ignored by raiders. [Arguably still better than all buff locations being ignored due to not being usable at all.]
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Too complex to implement as special dialog. It is better to grant buff when you use that pillar with head. Not just when someone else put it there.Kefke wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:29 amJust a thought as my insomnia bothers me, but rather than removing world buffs in raids, what about removing world buff stacking overall? Make people choose the one buff that benefits them most, perhaps making the buffs that only do one thing persist through death to make them an attractive alternative to the ones with multiple effects. To prevent players having their buffs overwritten, the city buffs could be opt-in, like how you give confirmation to join a quest (assuming this is possible), but on the other hand, choosing to avoid the areas where a buff one doesn't want drops would also incentivise use of other cities.
OL and DM might be not retain their usefulness, if their buffs will not be meta.
World buffs can't be dispelled.
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I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Well Songflower Serenade as well as the DM buffs can be dispelled. Only Dragonslayer, Warchiefs Blessing & Spirit of Zandalar are immune to being dispelled.
But id say thats not an important consideration with chronoboon displacer available and warmode being an opt-in system
But id say thats not an important consideration with chronoboon displacer available and warmode being an opt-in system
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
If we're going to use Season of Mastery as an example, please also remember that they removed the Debuff limit on bosses in Season of Mastery.
- Cortapotty
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Do not remove world buffs and nerf warriors and rogues-rogues slightly less.
Focus on bringing the meme specs (sub-optimal specs) up to par a little bit.
Fixed
Focus on bringing the meme specs (sub-optimal specs) up to par a little bit.
Fixed
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
I don't dare about world buffs but pls can I just use my blessing now without having to tell the shaman to stop using mana totem all the time. Oh yes it owuld be nice to use blessing of might and Kings sometimes too.
Thx.
Thx.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
So you are pro worldbuff removal, as described in the initial post, having combos such as kings, strength & agi totem next to zandalar buff & songflower just too strong, the only way how that will be implemented is when worldbuffs go.
Last edited by Kairion on Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
IMO if you want to remove world buffs then remove debuff cap as well
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells
it would allow many non-meta specs to finally be able to use their spells
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Will we see any updates on this thread from devs? We wanna know what you guys think
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There are no cows in the water.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Honestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
No please.
World Buffs is what makes World of Warcraft alive.
World Buffs is what makes World of Warcraft alive.
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
we should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Pauloricardo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:21 amIs it possible maintain world buffs from raids and make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack?
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
No we should not.Pauloricardo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:21 amwe should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
A warrior wrote this postPauloricardo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:21 amwe should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack
The game is seriously broken if you can stack all the best buffs in the game with eachother. Rogue Straightup becomes immune to any melee damage when stacking all these buffs and decent gear.
Let that sink in, he can literally tank Patchwork solo for 8min 30 seconds without any healer
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
They can already do it. Garr was recently killed by 4 ppl with a rogue tank.Kairion wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:54 amA warrior wrote this postPauloricardo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:21 amwe should maintain world buffs from raids and we make Shamans totems + Paladin blessings stack
The game is seriously broken if you can stack all the best buffs in the game with eachother. Rogue Straightup becomes immune to any melee damage when stacking all these buffs and decent gear.
Let that sink in, he can literally tank Patchwork solo for 8min 30 seconds without any healer
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
There is absolutely no way to bring meme specs "up to par" without first disabling world buffs in raids.Cortapotty wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:32 pmDo not remove world buffs and nerf warriors and rogues-rogues slightly less.
Focus on bringing the meme specs (sub-optimal specs) up to par a little bit.
Fixed
The paladin changes from last year have brought ret somewhat into viability in a raid setting, but they're on death knight levels of broken in PvP. If we want to foster any kind of battleground community on this server, we cannot just go making class changes willy-nilly while we still have world buffs in raids.
Warriors are fine - having both kings/might and strength of earth totem at once is already gonna give them world buff levels of attack power on bloodthirst, not to mention they'd still have windfury with that combo
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Scottish, heavy RP-PvPer & former Naxx raider.
Desha / Zin'tulak / Starstalker <Blacktooth Grin>
Lordaeron belongs to the Amani!
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
wholeheartly agreeKefke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:17 pmHonestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
I agree. Its rly needed.Kefke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:17 pmHonestly, I think that's just a necessary change in general. Currently, characters are restricted from using their abilities due to an arbitrary limit, not because a class using its abilities isn't good, but because it achieving its full potential causes other members of the raid to not reach theirs. There's no reason why some abilities should cause others to stop functioning if there's "too many", other than that it's how the game is coded, and as long as that's the case people are going to min-max which debuffs get used.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Hear hearZamnilisback89 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:12 pmTo remove world buffs is plainly foolish, all this would result in is a harder stacking of classes for raiding, allowing shaman and paladin buffs to stack narrows the field since you advantage warriors and rogues a hell of a lot more than casters like this. You now open up double threat reduction and WF/BoK/M stacked warrior and rogue groups, you now have less reason to take more than a token group of casters and druids.
Morgruk - Orc Shaman
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Remove wbuffs and remove debuff limit.
That calls for more class balance.
The stacking of shaman and pally buffs
is just straight up insane.
That calls for more class balance.
The stacking of shaman and pally buffs
is just straight up insane.
Morgruk - Orc Shaman
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You think you do, but perhaps maybe 100% you don't not do.
Or... some of you might actually perhaps most surely do actually anyway, still.
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You think you do, but perhaps maybe 100% you don't not do.
Or... some of you might actually perhaps most surely do actually anyway, still.
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Removing world buffs, making totems+blessings stack, AND removing the debuff limit were all done in TBC. And that is a GOOD thing.
I'm afraid that just because of that, the Devs are hesitant to implement these changes here, as they might make TWoW "more like TBC" and "less Vanilla". However, this thinking is flawed. TBC just finished a lot of trains of thought that were started in Vanilla. If TWoW wants to be a Vanilla+, then naturally, it should not be afraid to adopt certain aspects of TBC.
(my personal opinion is that, if you would take all gameplay aspects of TBC, e.g., honor system, crafting, class reworks, raid rules regarding world buffs and debuffs, and transplant them into the old vanilla world without flying, capped at lvl 60, but with added dungeons and zones, you would have a pretty solid foundation for a Vanilla+ vision right there)
Also, the historic background for certain "design" decisions in Vanilla needs to be considered:
World buffs were NEVER intended to be used in the way they are (ab)used now. They were simply meant as a cool gimmick, nothing more. Disabling them in raids would therefore actually get the game closer to the original Vanilla vision.
The debuff limit was never intended to be a feature, supposedly creating a challenge in the form of some obscure "debuff slot management". Like the lower server tick rate at the time, it was simply implemented to limit the data transfer rate in an age of 56 kbit modems and limit graphical effects when people ran the game on a S3 Virge.
One could go on: In interviews, Vanilla Devs admitted that they did not have the time to flesh out all three talent specs for each class and instead focused on making sure that at least one spec per class was raid viable (for the hybrids it was only their healing trees). Therefore, further class changes (empowering memespecs etc) are actually in line with a Vanilla+ vision.
I'm afraid that just because of that, the Devs are hesitant to implement these changes here, as they might make TWoW "more like TBC" and "less Vanilla". However, this thinking is flawed. TBC just finished a lot of trains of thought that were started in Vanilla. If TWoW wants to be a Vanilla+, then naturally, it should not be afraid to adopt certain aspects of TBC.
(my personal opinion is that, if you would take all gameplay aspects of TBC, e.g., honor system, crafting, class reworks, raid rules regarding world buffs and debuffs, and transplant them into the old vanilla world without flying, capped at lvl 60, but with added dungeons and zones, you would have a pretty solid foundation for a Vanilla+ vision right there)
Also, the historic background for certain "design" decisions in Vanilla needs to be considered:
World buffs were NEVER intended to be used in the way they are (ab)used now. They were simply meant as a cool gimmick, nothing more. Disabling them in raids would therefore actually get the game closer to the original Vanilla vision.
The debuff limit was never intended to be a feature, supposedly creating a challenge in the form of some obscure "debuff slot management". Like the lower server tick rate at the time, it was simply implemented to limit the data transfer rate in an age of 56 kbit modems and limit graphical effects when people ran the game on a S3 Virge.
One could go on: In interviews, Vanilla Devs admitted that they did not have the time to flesh out all three talent specs for each class and instead focused on making sure that at least one spec per class was raid viable (for the hybrids it was only their healing trees). Therefore, further class changes (empowering memespecs etc) are actually in line with a Vanilla+ vision.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
I agree with what Schwarzschild said.
Honestly, Turtle has gone it's own way and there is obviously nothing wrong with taking something good from later expansions and implementing it in Turtle so that the game will feel overall better.
Honestly, Turtle has gone it's own way and there is obviously nothing wrong with taking something good from later expansions and implementing it in Turtle so that the game will feel overall better.
- Reploidrocsa
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
If we can get rid of buff/debuff cap, make hots stack and blessings/totems stack i would be ok by getting rid of world buffs in raids
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Exactly. It is the "TBC philosophy" and should not be avoided just because of that. It just makes sense and, according to the Vanilla devs, it simply finished what they were not able to finish in time for Vanilla (unlike WotLK, which started to completely revamp many aspects of the game).Reploidrocsa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:31 pmIf we can get rid of buff/debuff cap, make hots stack and blessings/totems stack i would be ok by getting rid of world buffs in raids
There would, however be a resulting power creep in 5er-dungeons, where world buffs are rarely used, but where stackable totems+blessings would be felt. Nevertheless, it will not be too significant I think, and maybe it will motivate more people to play Shaman (one of the least played classes atm).
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Shaman and paladin buffs should stack. They can't bring their signature skills into group content. Should warlocks be unable to summon a demon when a hunter pet is in their team? Should Arcane intellect overwrite PW:F? Should druids be locked out of cat form when they have a rogue in their team?
Why pit paladins and shaman against each other while all other classes can bring their full utility kit to the group?
If you have to remove world buffs to do this then by all means, do it. As mentioned before they were supposed to be a gimmick anyway
Why pit paladins and shaman against each other while all other classes can bring their full utility kit to the group?
If you have to remove world buffs to do this then by all means, do it. As mentioned before they were supposed to be a gimmick anyway
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
This poll has been open for ages now, people hate grinding for wbs, which usually takes longer then the actual raid. Where is the respond of the devs and when will they finally be removed? Looks like a few people who like wbs got their head to far up some devs a.., so we ll never have them removed...
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
Reposting my idea from another thread here:
Instead of removing an iconic part of the game, keep them as is BUT raid bosses would get an aura which suspends the effects of all world buffs while engaged.
This way they can still be used to speed up trash pack clears, which is the main argument in favor of world buffs, and a perfectly valid one.
Instead of removing an iconic part of the game, keep them as is BUT raid bosses would get an aura which suspends the effects of all world buffs while engaged.
This way they can still be used to speed up trash pack clears, which is the main argument in favor of world buffs, and a perfectly valid one.
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
I think you may find that world buffs are not necessary for fast trash clears when both shaman/paladin stacking is implemented and debuff limit is entirely removed. Debuff limit removal alone means a huge amount of additional damage from classes not previously allowed to place them is suddenly happening. Moonfire, Insect Swarm, Rend, Deep Wounds, Immolate, Curse of Agony, Corruption, Shadow Word Pain, Flame Shock, multiply all these by the number of each class in the raid, etc etc etcGantulga wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:47 pmReposting my idea from another thread here:
Instead of removing an iconic part of the game, keep them as is BUT raid bosses would get an aura which suspends the effects of all world buffs while engaged.
This way they can still be used to speed up trash pack clears, which is the main argument in favor of world buffs, and a perfectly valid one.
Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
So Arcane Intellect should also stack?
So if there's 7 mages you can have 7 AI on you?
Same as PW:F ?
Ain't that what we are talking about?
Stacking of buffs like that is crazy.
Totems and blessings are no different.
They should NOT be able to stack.
Just like all other buffs are not.
But remove debuff limit and remove world buffs.
Morgruk - Orc Shaman
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Or... some of you might actually perhaps most surely do actually anyway, still.
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Re: World Buffs & Cross-faction Stacking Rules
That's not even comparable to Paladin/Shaman stacking and you know it. You can already have multiple different buffs that stack the exact same effect (Arcane Intellect, Intellect Well Fed buff), but we are talking about buffs that affect two different stats even if they end up having similar final effects. It's a false equivalence and you know it; don't be obtuse.
Paladin: Buff that gives Melee Attack Power
Shaman: Place a totem that gives Strength (gives less AP but also gives block value to tanks)
Paladin: Buff that gives mana regen every 5 seconds as an energize
Shaman: Place a totem that gives much smaller mana regen every 2 seconds as an energize, but lower overall regen
Paladin: Place a debuff that gives melee attackers a chance to get HP on hit
Shaman: Place a totem that gives a little health every few seconds
Paladin: Buff that gives +10% to all stats
Shaman: Place a totem that gives a chance for an extra attack on hit
Paladin: Aura that increases Armor, roughly translating to a % reduction in physical damage that varies per player
Shaman: Place a totem that lowers physical damage by a small flat amount
ALSO PALADIN: Primary tank buff
These are just some of their analogues, but with the exception of Mana Spring Totem and Blessing of Wisdom, how are these the same buffs?