The PVP Pala Problem

[Denkai]

Hi,

I love turtle and all that but on the pvp side of things the pala have buff have created a situation that is not balanced anymore. The main issue is a mix of the attack and bubble ability but also the sheer amount of paladins we face from horde side in batlegrounds.

Devs can look at the logs themselves to see the impact this is having so hopefully a future patch looks into things so that battlegrounds dont become only paladins vs nobody (since right now, it feels like re-rolling a pala is the way to go for pvp).

have fun flaming

[Balake]

Anyone who thinks paladins are not broken in pvp has never tried playing against one. They can bubble (become unkite-able, uncontrollable. Nothing you can do for all classes except rogue and feral who can run away). Stack five crusader strikes then holy strike + holy shock to oneshot anyone.

Solution is simple, make bubble do 50% reduction to damage dealt like in wotlk

[Geojak]

There is already a multy page discussion about exactly this. Feel free to hop on the other threat too!

[Chilubs]

Hello,

I play a horde character and indeed can verify the paladins are very strong and popular. Horde are having an extremely tough time in the BG's. It is my experience that horde win very few games. i don't mind losing but horde should be able to win the odd game. Would like to see more balance to game play. The way it is now Alliance are getting there honor and gear much faster which makes BG's very tough for horde. Please consider more balance which will lead to more fun. In my opinion the way things are now is very demoralizing for the Horde. It was a little better before the patch.

Thanks

[Geojak]

Is horde losing even wsg and ab now? Back when I ranked in spring we (allaince) lost all of those. At some point ppl stopped even trying when specific shamans/mages joined.

Is it that bad now for horde?

Or are we taling about av? Which allaicne sonehas always won on here+

[Denkai]

Any battleground tbh. The issue is not about losing a battleground but that the buffs given to pala to help them become usefull in PVE made them OP in pvp. Join any battleground and see for yourself (provided you are not trolling and actually play horde).

Again, Dev can see the logs on win/loss and class balance for themselves so maybe they comment on this...

[Gantulga]

This isn't exclusive to paladins as some other classes/specs also became overpowered in PvP due to custom buffs but pretty much half of alliance players are paladins.

[Geojak]

As a paladin, I would not mind a holy strike nerf/rework. but we already discussed that in the other thread.

Crusader strike is also in an absurd state where it stacks 5x the effect of the pvp gloves and libram extra holy dmg. It's hundreds of bonus holy sp when stacked up.

I personally would Let judgement of crusader having the debuff again and restore classic in this regard so can't stack pvp gloved and libram 5x and only 1x as original. then make crusader strike have a 4s CD and give a 6% haste buff to the paladin that can stack 5x.

This would ensure paladins are less op in pvp as you can't quickly stack up Cs 5x for mega bonus sp nuke, also closer to vanilla, and actually buffed dmg in pve where you will have the 6x4=24s needed to go to full 30% haste. Note that warrior, shamans both have this haste as soon as they crit

The alternatives are just nerfing paladins straigth which negatively affects them in pve which will cause outcry and is imo avoidable

Turtle devs wanted crusader strike to be paladin sunder armor. It doesn't work. As a paladin you can't tab target as apply it to multiple mobs. You put judgment of wisdom up and Cs on that target only. Its not used like sunder armor when tanking at all

[Kairion]

Playing a paladin on turtle myself its definitely busted in pvp.

Holy Strike thanks to vengeange can double dip & hits insanely hard, in conjunction with lucky soc procs this can be in excess of 3k damage on a decently geared paladins which can't be blocked by armor. by just autoattacking. This exceeds even enhancement tripple windfury as this can at least be mitigated by armor.

Holy shock builds rival elemental for their burst potential while being the single best healer spec for pvp in anything but the most well coordinated groups.

This is paladin in a vacuum where he is already insanely strong, considering he can interrupt caps with bubble and be almost impossible to kill in a small scale skirmish you have a character that is perfect at defending bases in arathi, excellent at pressuring efc as well as keeping your own one alive and slippery and due to bubble shenannegans op in alterac too.

With the recent alterac changes Korrak is basically unkillabe. The only way you will ever get snowfall graveyard taken is by a paladin with bubble tanking while someone else taps the graveyard. Even better, Korrak will defend the now taped flag against contest by the other faction. It may as well be an alliance gy from the start of the game.

Paladin MUST be nerfed if the server wants to maintain pvp as part of the game.

This is btw the references other threat that has already talked trough most of the important aspects: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5066

[Artofwill]

Nice to hear more people speaking out about the situation. In my experience, paladins alone can tilt the favor of every BG, especially AV of course. The reasons are pretty much already explained by many here as well as many in previous posts. So far I haven't seen any acknowledgement to the current issue from the devs, but I don't doubt that they are aware of it. I would love to hear from them as it's just some good will to show to the players that have to endure the problem right now.

[Geojak]

@Kairion you said:"
Holy shock builds rival elemental for their burst potential while being the single best healer spec for pvp in anything but the most well coordinated groups."

We even crushed the numbers. And we saw holy burst is clesly still a league below the all mighty ele shaman by atleast 1000 dmg potential . We don't have to do this again, but this statement is just not true...

[Kairion]

Add 400 holy spelldmg from the bugged crusader strike stack and you end up with a difference of just 312 points in burst damage - i wasn't even considering that in the prior discussion to emphatize on the INSTANT aspect of the paladin combo - if we give him prep time (akin to how ele needs to cast in piece for 3.5 seconds) the paladin is indeed very close, so please don't twist my words against me

[Geojak]

If you consider giving the paladin 5x gcd to stack in meele without cc the crusader strike. Then how is that even still burst. Might aswell compared a warrior stscking 5 times sunder and then go whirlwind and mortal strike + heroic strike all crit.

[Kairion]

Even without prep time, if we assume the enemy is below 20% hp after your initial combo (wich isnt unlikely considering its over 4000 dmg already) you can easily add a hammer of wrath to end up with ~5500 dmg in 4seconds

while shaman ends with ~5200 dmg in 3.5 sconds.

That is WITHOUT crusader strike and all within the timeframe of a stun wich you also pack. I seriously doubt you ever where at the receiving end of such a combo if you think its fair for paladin to have this.

And i like to repeat myself. even not wearing healing gear but rather spelldmg gear you are still a massively potent healer in the same spec - requiring other people to come towards you if they want to deal with you. No need for gapclosers. Also, your damage is Holy, Holy is harder to resist than nature.

[Xudo]

I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.

[Karrados]

I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.

With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).

[Ravenstone]

Inherently the most durable class in PvP at high level. Not so much a glass cannon as a divine bulldozer.

I've seen that the Devs are apparently aware of the problem, but would be nice to have a message on the forum of their acknowledgment.

[Geojak]

I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.

With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).

Holy isn't a heal specc. Holy shock isn't even a good heal skill. When you wear full sp you areva caster

[Ghola]

I like the fact that some paladins argue that they are balanced because their burst is only 300 damage less than shamans-one.

With one being specced Elemental (Damage Dealer) while the other is specced into Holy (Healer).

Holy isn't a heal specc. Holy shock isn't even a good heal skill. When you wear full sp you areva caster

damn so paladins are all druid specs at once

[Geojak]

Not rly because you can't wesr tank gear, heal gear, caster gear etc. At the same time. You choose one.

[Ravenstone]

Holy isn't a heal specc.

I'm finding it hard to respect anything you post when you write stuff like this.

I am curious as to your reasoning that Holy isn't a heal spec. The rest of your comment I can understand, not that I particularly agree with it.

[Kairion]

Not rly because you can't wesr tank gear, heal gear, caster gear etc. At the same time. You choose one.

This is simply not true for people with higher levels of gear. You can wear t2 for all 3 paladin specs with decent results. It might not be the best in slot for healing but it does the job adequately while also providing you with a framework to easily hit 50% + physical mitigation with a shield or still around 35-40ish % without one and poviding you with enough spelldamage and melee stats to boot.

If you go to av with full cloth you aint a good healer you are a liability.

The only critical choice you have to make is if you want a twohander to burst or a onehander and shield to be even harder to kill. But you can switch that easily depending on the situation with little opportunity cost.

Funnily enough the damage numbers i provided in my example were t2 with some caster trinkets/rings. This isnt even what paladin could attain with some max spellpower junk gear. This is a realistic example what a healer who bolstered his offense a tiny bit could do to you assuming he got the zandalari hero charm either INSTANT (~4200) OR Within the time their stun lasts (~5500+ )

This isnt even particularly unlikely because just like shaman who does the same thing but worse, paladin can ensure one of his hits crits



The argument that a talent tree that has illumination, 10% increased healing output and a spell that can be used for instant burst healing on yourself or allies within 20feet is not good for healing is simply laughable. The only thing pala was always good in was healing and they definitely didnt skill vengeance to improve their healing output

[Ghola]

Not rly because you can't wesr tank gear, heal gear, caster gear etc. At the same time. You choose one.

This is simply not true for people with higher levels of gear. You can wear t2 for all 3 paladin specs with decent results. It might not be the best in slot for healing but it does the job adequately while also providing you with a framework to easily hit 50% + physical mitigation with a shield or still around 35-40ish % without one and poviding you with enough spelldamage and melee stats to boot.

If you go to av with full cloth you aint a good healer you are a liability.

The only critical choice you have to make is if you want a twohander to burst or a onehander and shield to be even harder to kill. But you can switch that easily depending on the situation with little opportunity cost.

Funnily enough the damage numbers i provided in my example were t2 with some caster trinkets/rings. This isnt even what paladin could attain with some max spellpower junk gear. This is a realistic example what a healer who bolstered his offense a tiny bit could do to you assuming he got the zandalari hero charm either INSTANT (~4200) OR Within the time their stun lasts (~5500+ )

This isnt even particularly unlikely because just like shaman who does the same thing but worse, paladin can ensure one of his hits crits



The argument that a talent tree that has illumination, 10% increased healing output and a spell that can be used for instant burst healing on yourself or allies within 20feet is not good for healing is simply laughable. The only thing pala was always good in was healing and they definitely didnt skill vengeance to improve their healing output

also blessing of light is a huge boost to healing with no personal tradeoffs, acts as a dispell buffer as well

[Geojak]

Holy isn't a heal specc.

I'm finding it hard to respect anything you post when you write stuff like this.

I am curious as to your reasoning that Holy isn't a heal spec. The rest of your comment I can understand, not that I particularly agree with it.

Since you asked for it. Holy has strnegjt and int talents, plus righteous seal dmg talent, +12% holy schick talent, holy shcikc itself which is better used as the only, ranged dmg spell isntead of a worse than flash heal, then there is 5% holy crit chance.

All in all a completely serviceable tree for a caster dmg tree and in no way different than for example a priests smite talenting.

Is a smite Preist a healer? Maybe, if he has +heal gear on.
Same is true for pala holy

[Kairion]

Holy isn't a heal specc.

I'm finding it hard to respect anything you post when you write stuff like this.

I am curious as to your reasoning that Holy isn't a heal spec. The rest of your comment I can understand, not that I particularly agree with it.

Since you asked for it. Holy has strnegjt and int talents, plus righteous seal dmg talent, +12% holy schick talent, holy shcikc itself which is better used as the only, ranged dmg spell isntead of a worse than flash heal, then there is 5% holy crit chance.

All in all a completely serviceable tree for a caster dmg tree and in no way different than for example a priests smite talenting.

Is a smite Preist a healer? Maybe, if he has +heal gear on.
Same is true for pala holy

Funny that you mention smite priest. The difference between a Raid discipline heal spec and a smite priest are 5 talent points and just as with holy shock paladin the main thing preventing these specs from healing either fulltime or in emergencies is their stubbornness. Many of the necessary talents are skilled.
Someone being literally to stubborn or stupid to use his class for their fullest potential does not justify the class being overbuffed to compensate

[Ravenstone]

Geojak, you literally just ignore all the healing talents that are only present in the Holy Tree for Paladin, including the first half of the talent that improves effectiveness of Holy Shock. This talent increases your heals by 12% at the same time but you chose to ignore that fact. Just because you are trying to be a caster by ignoring half the talents there, that does not mean they do not exist. In fact, all of the talents that benefit you as a 'caster',save Sanctity Aura, also benefit your healing spells, because all your heals are Holy spells.

Holy Shock use is as an instant cast heal which can be used in situations where you don't have time to stop running or cast a Flash Heal which is not uncommon in PvP. Have you never used it to heal a teammate? I accept that it does also do decent damage which you can use to burst, but if you only do that then I'd argue you aren't a very good Paladin, because you are ignoring an huge aspect of your toolkit.

Paladins have always been good in at least one thing and that is healing. The talent tree that allowed this is Holy so to flat out deny that Holy is a healing spec is just wrong. I understand that you want to play it as a caster and I'm not saying you can't, but to state that it isn't is being willfully deceitful.

Equipment has no bearing on spec. You can be itemised for a spec but that is irrelevant. When you go respec, you dont just equip a new set of items, you spend money to change your talents.

[Karrados]

Geojak, you literally just ignore all the healing talents that are only present in the Holy Tree for Paladin, including the first half of the talent that improves effectiveness of Holy Shock. This talent increases your heals by 12% at the same time but you chose to ignore that fact. Just because you are trying to be a caster by ignoring half the talents there, that does not mean they do not exist. In fact, all of the talents that benefit you as a 'caster',save Sanctity Aura, also benefit your healing spells, because all your heals are Holy spells.

Holy Shock use is as an instant cast heal which can be used in situations where you don't have time to stop running or cast a Flash Heal which is not uncommon in PvP. Have you never used it to heal a teammate? I accept that it does also do decent damage which you can use to burst, but if you only do that then I'd argue you aren't a very good Paladin, because you are ignoring an huge aspect of your toolkit.

Paladins have always been good in at least one thing and that is healing. The talent tree that allowed this is Holy so to flat out deny that Holy is a healing spec is just wrong. I understand that you want to play it as a caster and I'm not saying you can't, but to state that it isn't is being willfully deceitful.

Equipment has no bearing on spec. You can be itemised for a spec but that is irrelevant. When you go respec, you dont just equip a new set of items, you spend money to change your talents.

Don't bother arguing with him. He brought in Kairion in another thread to confirm that Paladins are not as strong as people make them out to be only to be told that they are that strong and then he merely doubled down.

It's funny that he ignores so many Healing talents or the healing component of the 12% Talent after he himself claimed to be a "Facts over Feelings" guy in another thread. People have shown the numbers, Paladins are way too powerful in the offensive while also having a strong defensive and the Devs took note of it and will work on it.

ANYONE that doubts that Vanilla Holy Paladins are strong in PVP is, and that is not even meant as an insult, dumb. Anyone that tries to deny that the Turtle-buffed Holy Paladins are overpowered in PVP is beyond dumb.

They are the dominant class/specc in PvP right now.

[Ravenstone]

I think half the problem is that he is miscommunicating his thoughts. For his previous comment about Holy not being a heal spec, I think he actually meant that it could be used as a spell power damage spec, which it could be. However it came out just as a narrow visioned, completely incorrect statement initially. When drilling down into it he's pointed out that there are talents that can also be used to bolster your damage. Which is true.

Having said that, hes not helping himself when defending his arguements as hes putting across a completely narrow and inflexible view of what he sees and does double down without revisiting anything hes said to correct or clarify.

The alternative is just depressing, but won't stop me from responding.

[Gantulga]

The one we should be arguing with are developers but those don't engage with the community.

[Elkepwn]

there's a reason palas didn't do much damage in classic. they are op. at the moment pvp is no longer playable in turtle on hordes side. you just die within the stun from 2 hits and that's it. please ballenced the paladin in pvp, it doesn't make any sense like that

[Snakeman]

Not rly because you can't wesr tank gear, heal gear, caster gear etc. At the same time. You choose one.

Except paladin kinda can, especially relative to other PvP classes, because if you're wearing plate spell damage gear it gives you spell damage, healing and physical mitigation...

I have shittons of armour on my shaman when I use a shield and full mail but paladins have even more still. And two on-demand invulns, not counting LIPs. I am absolutely advantaged vs paladins in that I have multiple slows, spell damage (ignoring armour) and offensive magic dispel, but if the paladin closes the gap I'm dead. Which is a nice level of tradeoff if you have the toolkit to deal with paladins, but most classes just don't

[Artofwill]

I have realized something after playing for a few months, many hours in BGs.
If Paladins weren't as busted as they are now, the alliance population would lose at least 75% if not more of their bg games. This seems to be caused by the fact that most casual non PVP oriented players tend to play alliance, and the fact that horde racials are superior in pvp. It seems like the devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Paladins, if they were balanced properly, they risk bleeding players from the large alliance population.

[Kairion]

Well horde always has attracted the more confrontational of players. Would make sense that this is no different on turtle. If paladins are toned down and alliance struggles in wsg/ab onw could look into racials such as orc passive and nerf if necessary.

Funnily enough i dont think it would impact av significantly. The map is lobsided af and the only times i've seen horde win is with massive turtling until alliance kinda gives up.

[Gantulga]

I have realized something after playing for a few months, many hours in BGs.
If Paladins weren't as busted as they are now, the alliance population would lose at least 75% if not more of their bg games. This seems to be caused by the fact that most casual non PVP oriented players tend to play alliance, and the fact that horde racials are superior in pvp. It seems like the devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Paladins, if they were balanced properly, they risk bleeding players from the large alliance population.

Alliance is superior to horde in organized PvP plus raiding in baseline 1.12. Paladins are much better support than shamans where it actually matters.

[Artofwill]

As far as my experiences go however, alliances rarely win wsg/ab if they don't out number horde by 25% or have at least 40% of the team be made up of Paladins. I have a feeling that if Paladins were toned down, they would basically never win those BGs, not because of any major faction difference, but because horde side just have more experienced pvpers it seems.
Hopefully this isn't reflective of how the Devs see the situation, and they can address the issue accordingly.
On a side note, I think Paladin issue would be resolved easily if we just had cross faction Bgs, but that's just me.