Pally Buff durations from 5 > 30 min

[Sinrek]

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Yes paladin was supposed to have a bunch of bloodlusts, and it doesn't right now. So we're saying, either move it in that direction, or make what we have more convenient. This middle ground we have now isn't good.

I've been suggesting improving Blessing of Might to also grant some strength, Blessing of Wisdom - intellect, Blessing of Light + small heal over time bonus and several other bonuses to existing blessings.

Small bonuses, but they would improve those short-term buffs, alas, there should be somewhat resemblance to balance in the game and if you take a look at those shaman buffs provided by totems then it'd be overpowered both in duration and useful uptime since totems are stationary and blessings are always up on the player for the whole duration.
So 5 minutes is just enough for paladins to be a significant asset for the group.

Paladins and shamans are both support classes, yet paladins are more defensive and shamans are sort of offensive support. Buffing something on one of them will automatically make us change something for the counterpart. Testing it out would be a nightmare nobody on the TW team want to experience.

In theory, it is all nice and easy but when it comes to class interactions you face some serious issues if not problems.

[Velite]

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Yes paladin was supposed to have a bunch of bloodlusts, and it doesn't right now. So we're saying, either move it in that direction, or make what we have more convenient. This middle ground we have now isn't good.

I've been suggesting improving Blessing of Might to also grant some strength, Blessing of Wisdom - intellect, Blessing of Light + small heal over time bonus and several other bonuses to existing blessings.

Small bonuses, but they would improve those short-term buffs, alas, there should be somewhat resemblance to balance in the game and if you take a look at those shaman buffs provided by totems then it'd be overpowered both in duration and useful uptime since totems are stationary and blessings are always up on the player for the whole duration.
So 5 minutes is just enough for paladins to be a significant asset for the group.

Paladins and shamans are both support classes, yet paladins are more defensive and shamans are sort of offensive support. Buffing something on one of them will automatically make us change something for the counterpart. Testing it out would be a nightmare nobody on the TW team want to experience.

In theory, it is all nice and easy but when it comes to class interactions you face some serious issues if not problems.

That's assuming you need to make them counterparts.

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct. We've got more license to do that since playing a shaman doesn't lock you out of an alliance raiding group here.

It's very weird that we have 7 classes who can all be taken in different directions and these two who remain stagnant.

Unlike in vanilla and classic, if I want to alt a shaman, or an orc warrior or gnome hunter in a raid that is mostly comprised of opposite faction I can do that. We don't need to have shamans and paladins be in parity all the time, it makes them redundant.

[Sinrek]

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct.

And they are. There's not much that should be changed with existing spells on those two. Well … perhaps some nerfs on the new stuff since it's clearly OP right now. Everything else is ok.

[Geojak]

If you nerf new stuff on paladin and shaman, how about nerfing old stuff on warriors?

Diamond flask is still allowed, heroic strike queing affecting offhand miss is still allowed.

Its a bit weird that we are already considering nerfing hybrids when warriors were never touched

[Venytas]

Everything less than 30 minutes for normal buffs and 60 minutes for greater ones is just wrong.
There is NO gain for them to be less in duration.
There is NO difference in balance if they were 30 or 60 minutes long.

The argument of "but dev number 42 said he wanted it like that cuz XYZ" is invalid because it got changed to the better really quick, so he might have been wrong to beginn with. Furthermore, the gameplay got better with newer expansions, like tbc or wotlk, and the whole community except some neckbeards will agree on that.

Some ppl need to understand that not everything vanilla did was good, some things even were terrible.

[Velite]

I thought the whole point of the class changes, and overall class design, was to make the classes distinct.

And they are. There's not much that should be changed with existing spells on those two. Well … perhaps some nerfs on the new stuff since it's clearly OP right now. Everything else is ok.

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

[Sinrek]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

[Velite]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

By having the 2 classes on separate factions, it goes against the core class design philosophy that classes should be unique. It creates this desire that we have to design them to be equal. That was the motivation for unlocking them for both factions, Blizzard could move forward in designing them separately (this is stated in a TBC documentary with Jeff Kaplan). So no, we should not remove cross faction as we've enabled a vital step in letting these two classes follow the intended design of being unique, because picking either of them doesn't lock you out of a specific raid group on Turtle Wow. Now we should go further and take advantage of this to improve both of the classes, since apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa, just as the design of a Mage does not affect the design of a Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

[Sinrek]

apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

Yes. PvP is active and that's why we can't.

[Nearl]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

[Sinrek]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

[Venytas]

They're not if 2 classes have things which conflict and must have parity lol.

Hold on a second. So you're saying we should separate the horde from the alliance as it was supposed to be? lol.

By having the 2 classes on separate factions, it goes against the core class design philosophy that classes should be unique. It creates this desire that we have to design them to be equal. That was the motivation for unlocking them for both factions, Blizzard could move forward in designing them separately (this is stated in a TBC documentary with Jeff Kaplan). So no, we should not remove cross faction as we've enabled a vital step in letting these two classes follow the intended design of being unique, because picking either of them doesn't lock you out of a specific raid group on Turtle Wow. Now we should go further and take advantage of this to improve both of the classes, since apart from PvP there's no reason that a Shaman's design should affect a Paladin's design, and vice versa, just as the design of a Mage does not affect the design of a Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w3zsE77cg

agree on that

[Nearl]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

I doubt that making the buff go to 30min and making fishing 10sec would make the game more stale and bland, at this point you're just enjoying the pain of such mechanics that aren't good at all and needs to be improved. I never saw in my life a paladin change his benediction suddenly because he needs mana or he needs more AP in a middle of a dungeon or a raid or just a simple fight.
Those mechanics definitly needs improvement and just buffing the duration won't hurt anyone. Get over it.

[Mrrosh]

I would love having the buff duration increased, even something less, like 10 minutes, would still be amazing.

[Kwayver]

Paladin blessings lasting 5 minutes results in more downtime between fights due to rebuffing and drinking after.
Most people would prefer less downtime during a dungeon. This change isn't just to benefit paladins, it benefits any group running with a paladin.

Additionally, it's good etiquette to give people a bit when they buff you. I feel almost guilty when a priest or mage or druid gives me a 30 minute buff and all I can do in return is a 5 minute buff that will likely have written off by the time they take a flight path anywhere.

At the very least the regular blessings of Kings, might, wisdom, salvation, and light should last 15 minutes and greater versions last 30 minutes.

[Nearl]

Paladin blessings lasting 5 minutes results in more downtime between fights due to rebuffing and drinking after.
Most people would prefer less downtime during a dungeon. This change isn't just to benefit paladins, it benefits any group running with a paladin.

Additionally, it's good etiquette to give people a bit when they buff you. I feel almost guilty when a priest or mage or druid gives me a 30 minute buff and all I can do in return is a 5 minute buff that will likely have written off by the time they take a flight path anywhere.

At the very least the regular blessings of Kings, might, wisdom, salvation, and light should last 15 minutes and greater versions last 30 minutes.

Exactly, finally someone that gets it, unlike someone here that still believes having 5 min buff duration is a good thing :p
I also felt guilty as a paladin when for example a druid gives me a 30min buff and all i can do its to give him a 5m one.. that sucks.

[Velite]

Frankly I don't even think blessings are that powerful. Arcane Intellect/Power Word: Fortitude/Mark of the Wild are just as strong as any given paladin blessing, just in a different area.

[Venytas]

I really think that increasing it could make everyone happy, even tho its intended game mechanic it doesn't mean its good Sinrek, I really believe you should let things be just better, like my fishing post, its just QoL, it doesn't make the game easier or harder, it just makes it less of a pain.. and I do hope you're not masochist lol

Anyway, +1 on that.

I really think that changing something in game that isn't broken will make everyone happy, regardless of intention, mechanics are there and have been working fine. These QoL changes brought us to what we have in retail, and it didn't make the game better, it made the game stale and bland… and I do hope you're not a junk food eater lol

Anyway, -2 on that.

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

[Sinrek]

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

Really? Why are you here then? Waiting for that Classic WotLK prime age, eh? KEKW

[Nearl]

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

Really? Why are you here then? Waiting for that Classic WotLK prime age, eh? KEKW

What a toxic behavior, and you're here giving your vote on a topic that will maybe change the future of the server, honestly all you deserve right now is to be ignored. Its not because we want those buffs to be 30min instead of 5 that we're wotlk classic enjoyers. In fact I hate Blizzard and many of us here do, never forget that.

About the topic now: Tbf maybe 30min its too much, 15min like food buffs would be quite cool tho, at least we coud make something out of it. Talents could make the buff last longer.

[Paledot]

The Alliance has so many paladins that 5 min is even too long.
(Just joking, I personally would vote to make every similar short buff to 10 min but probably not more.)

[Sinrek]

What a toxic behavior, and you're here giving your vote on a topic that will maybe change the future of the server, honestly all you deserve right now its to be ignored. Its not because we want those buffs to be 30min instead of 5 that we're wotlk classic enjoyers. In fact I hate Blizzard and many of us here do, never forget that.

Work with what you have. Stop asking for another tool if you can't learn properly how to wield what you've agreed to from the start. Class design is fine and the duration is even better than what it was supposed to be.

Toxicity is there due to the simple fact you optimizing snowflakes wannabe can't be bothered to push your blasted button every 5 mins. The audacity, my sides!!

You are in a group. Perfect situation for a paladin. You buff yourself first (to see when the timer is about to run out easier) then you buff your weakest to strongest party members. That's in total 10 clicks! With a macro for each blessing, it could be even twice as less!! Nothing complicated here.

Your mana drops lower than 50%? No problem, start whacking things with your Seal of Wisdom on. Your allies are low on mana? Judge this shit on the target they hit! Yes some fights require much more healing, and sometimes things go awry, but that's what you have to asses before the fight and use the tools available to your class in a proper moment. The duration of a fight even in raids almost never lasts longer than 5 minutes. If it does - you're doing something wrong. But then again, raids mean you have access to triple as much longer in duration for those blessings than you have in a 5-man group!

Duration is fine. It's the way paladins getting used to playing isn't.

Quoting me to say "you deserve an ignore" is like the same sh*t as running 3 miles after a man to say you don't care of his opinion. You just played yourself. Never quote me again btw.

[Velite]

Class design is fine and the duration is even better than what it was supposed to be.

Worst take of the whole thread. I want you to go try raiding as a ret paladin and see how that turns out. You must be playing a different game than us, or we wouldn't be complaining if things were fine.

Nobody is asking to bring paladins for blessings, everyone wants them for healing on this server. Not like Shamans who everyone wants as many of. The only blessing your raid needs is salvation.

[Sinrek]

Worst take of the whole thread. I want you to go try raiding as a ret paladin and see how that turns out.

Worst complaint of the whole thread. You picked up a support class and what class do you even try to compete with? Rogues? Warriors? Shamans?

The class was designed with the idea of protecting your group/raid and saving the day when things go awry. You want to dps as a paladin? Fine. Do your dps rotation, but as a class which was designed for protection and saving your group, I'm 100% sure you won't be able to dish out as much dps as shamans since these were designed differently!

[Geojak]

Velite is right thought, wf made paladins best buffs might and Kings obsolete on meele groups.

Paladin support is not as amazing as ppl claim. Priest have better support if you ask me

[Sinrek]

Velite is right thought, wf made paladins best buffs might and Kings obsolete on meele groups.

Paladin support is not as amazing as ppl claim. Priest have better support if you ask me

That's going in circles already. WF > BoK or BoM. That's fine. Use other Blessings. Nothing to it.

[Velite]

Velite is right thought, wf made paladins best buffs might and Kings obsolete on meele groups.

Paladin support is not as amazing as ppl claim. Priest have better support if you ask me

That's going in circles already. WF > BoK or BoM. That's fine. Use other Blessings. Nothing to it.

Yes, let me just use all the other blessings that I don't have to support the melee.

Oh wait. You know paladins only really have 5 main blessings, right? knocking out 2 is just knocking out 2 paladin spots in a raid. If you can't give kings and might you've just nerfed the contribution of that paladin by 50%.

You're lecturing us on how to play our class as though you are the master and what you say means that basically any paladin is the star of the show. News flash, reality doesn't work that way.

Also, WF + STR > BoK + BoM.

[Sinrek]

WF + STR > BoK + BoM.

Good. Use those instead. There's no problem.

[Velite]

WF + STR > BoK + BoM.

Good. Use those instead. There's no problem.

There we go again. Why don't we just remove both classes and add one instead just called "Support" and that way we can actually improve it over vanilla shaman and paladin, since it's clear that it's too hard for the devs to improve 2 classes, 1 should be easier. Paladins and Shamans have real problems in vanilla that hold them back from being actually good classes like Warriors.

A warrior can choose what they want to play as in a raid and any option is respectable. The same is not true for paladins and shamans. This is what we're complaining about.

[Sinrek]

There we go again. Why don't we just remove both classes and add one instead just called "Support" and that way we can actually improve it over vanilla shaman and paladin, since it's clear that it's too hard for the devs to improve 2 classes, 1 should be easier. Paladins and Shamans have real problems in vanilla that hold them back from being actually good classes like Warriors.

A warrior can choose what they want to play as in a raid and any option is respectable. The same is not true for paladins and shamans. This is what we're complaining about.

This is where you lost me completely. Sounds to me like you just want flat buffs.

[Velite]

There we go again. Why don't we just remove both classes and add one instead just called "Support" and that way we can actually improve it over vanilla shaman and paladin, since it's clear that it's too hard for the devs to improve 2 classes, 1 should be easier. Paladins and Shamans have real problems in vanilla that hold them back from being actually good classes like Warriors.

A warrior can choose what they want to play as in a raid and any option is respectable. The same is not true for paladins and shamans. This is what we're complaining about.

This is where you lost me completely. Sounds to me like you just want flat buffs.

Yes because the point that I and many other people are making is that they need to be buffed if you want to play anything other than a healer in raids and be desired as much as a healer.

[Geojak]

The hole point is, mages priest druids don't have to suffer 5 min buffs and their buffs are in my opinion n more not less useful than blessings

[Talenne]

Worst take of the whole thread. I want you to go try raiding as a ret paladin and see how that turns out.

Worst complaint of the whole thread. You picked up a support class and what class do you even try to compete with? Rogues? Warriors? Shamans?

The class was designed with the idea of protecting your group/raid and saving the day when things go awry. You want to dps as a paladin? Fine. Do your dps rotation, but as a class which was designed for protection and saving your group, I'm 100% sure you won't be able to dish out as much dps as shamans since these were designed differently!

Paladin is just designed to sit in the background casting Flash of Light all day and not the intended fantasy of being a frontline fighter that offers support skills to protect and motivate their allies.

[Venytas]

At this point you are literally lying, saying those(!) changes led to WoW being bad is just delusional.
After blizzard made those changes wow peaked and was in its prime for the vast majority of the playerbase

Really? Why are you here then? Waiting for that Classic WotLK prime age, eh? KEKW

You seem to be a vanilla enthusiast, WHY are you here? this is clearly a server that wants to expand on vanilla, no class on this server is vanilla anymore so WHY are you here if change is so damn bad?
You are just a sad, sad person who wants people to suffer just like you do, but there is one difference, you are a masochist.

And btw. try to be respectfull, even if the idea you support is garbage

[Geojak]

petition to make druid thorns, shadow ward and dampen magic 5 min buffs.

fortitude, arcane int, mark 15 mins likee greater blessing.

then we wait for the storm of complaints once they got paladied