Changes to MELEE HUNTER

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Monmothma21
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Monmothma21 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:42 am

Here is another suggestion(where i recycled my previous one), but for the Beast Mastery instead. You would have to invest about 34-36 points in to BM to have all the things. The numbers are mostly pulled out of my rear, so they are just an example/placeholder. Im also not sure how hard it would be to modify pet related stuff, but here it is:
  • you could combine both Endurance Training and Thick Hide in to one, and free the spot for Improved Aspect of the Wolf. To compensate for the merge you could reduce HP bonus to 10%(from 15%) and bonus armor to 20%(from 30%) at lvl 5 of the talent.
    Endurance Training

    Increases the Health and Armor of your pets by 2/4/6/8/10% and 4/8/12/16/20% respectively
    And the two version of the aspect to replace it with are:
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to lacerated(with the new skill) targets increases by 5/10/15%.
    Improved Aspect of the Wolf.

    While being under the influence of the Wolf all damage you and your pet do to bleeding targets increases by 2/4/6% for each unique bleed effect on the target.
    Because wolfs attack when they smell blood, it agitates them.
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  • Bestial Swiftness could be reduced to 20%(from 30%) and merged with Pathfinding, so one talent will improve speed of both you and the pet.
    Bestial Swiftness

    Increase the bonus from Aspect of the Cheetah and Aspect of the Pack by 3/6%. Also increases the outdoor movement speed of your pet by 10/20%
    And here is a suggestion for what could replace it:
    Goading.

    Your Wing Clip will specificaly target the weak points of your target, exposing them for 10 seconds. Your pet's Bite or Claw will have 20% chance to hit your target where it hurts, destabilizing them and making your Mongoose Bite usable without Dodging.
    You goad your target, enabling your pet to Bite or Claw better or reach places it wasnt able to before and make enemy vulnerable. Its like hitting the side of your chair with that "very special part of your elbow" (were the nerves are), which makes you feel like youre about to die. Your pet will cause your target to go through something like that, which should justify a free Mongoose Bite.
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  • You could combine Improved Revive Pet and Improved Mend Pet, to have one dedicated talent for caring about your pet. This will free another slot for a talent.
    Heavy Pet-ing(with a single t)

    Revive pet's casting time is reduced by 3/6 sec and mana cost by 20/40%, while the health your pet returns with is increased by 15/30%. Also gives the Mend Pet spell a 15/30% chance of cleansing 1 Curse, Disease, Magic or poison effect from the pet on each tick.
    This is what could go instead of it:
    Feast.

    Gives your pet's crits 7/15% chance to further exacerbate target's wound, making the target take 10/20% increased damage from bleeding. Only works against already bleeding(or lacerated with a new skill) targets. Lasts for 20 seconds. Proc-ing another instance of this effect on the same target(while already having one on) makes next 3 pet attacks replenish their hp by 15.
    Does not work on Undead or Mechanical targets.
    Going for the wound itself is a legit tactic some animals will use. And the healing goes from your pet nibbling on them. Your pet shouldnt be nibbling on mechanical targets or undead, for obvious reasons.
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There is virtualy nothing else to move, with out (radicaly) changing existing skills. So far i was mainly suggesting to add new stuff, while shuffling existing talents around. I can only suggest to change how Lacerate works.
Lacerate.
(passive)

Your melee critical strikes and Mongoose Bite cause grievous wound that does [0.75*Mongoose Bite] direct damage and makes your target bleed for [0.5*og.Lacerate] damage every 3 seconds for the next 15 seconds. Stacks to 5.
Stacking to 5 will boost dot damage to [0.5*og.Lacerate]x5. So, for example, if originaly intended lacerate damage would be 100 it will do (0.5*100)*5 damage, which is 250, on full 5 stacks. Getting more stacks will replenish the dot and also do direct damage.
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Damnatius
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Damnatius » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:33 pm

Played the vanilla + serv. and its a good melee version, but u feel like other class and lets no do that!
My oppinion is that melee hunters can work only with existing spells and abilities,to feel like vanilla wow and staying in the class fantasy like this serv, done that til now. if u add more stuff it will change the vanilla vibe.
All changes can be made in talent tree (removing a lot of useless ones and make 2 in 1 where u can), or added in the spells. the range is a hunter signature class, so we can have dmg nerf when use monkey form but not remove them.

1.buffed lacerate version would be a good addition (like paladin holy strike) because it was intended in game and feels like it belongs in vanilla and the class fantasia ( bleeds,poisons)
2.buffed raptor strike ( making it instant,or less cd time, or ap scaling dmg)
3.making new usage of ap or dmg buffed mongoose bite better like : after raptor strike u can use it, or free use in monkey aspect, or use after a crit, or something of sort.
4.buffed counterattk (dmg or ap scaling)
5. in combat traps!
6. buffed monkey aspect with ap. (we already have an aspect , why make another one?? to change vanilla vibe?)
7. add imp. serpent sting in surv tree (its more rellevant here)

A lot can be done here, but for me its important to feel and play like a hunter vanilla serv and a hunter we now, with no added stuff.

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Mativh
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Mativh » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:54 am

Good points I've played melee hunter and I agree with you, except maybe the in combat traps, it'd strengthen the spec but doesn't make sense as the trap is something the opponent isn't supposed to be aware of, maybe it could be in combat but only if the enemy is out of line of sight. And a talent that increases hit chance against what is being tracked at the moment.

It's important to establish the fantasy identity behind this spec. What does a hunter fighting in melee do in real life from a period of similar available weapons, and how does that change with wows lore races and hunted beasts?

There are abilities in Diablo 2, spear and javelin skill tree of the Amazon class, that would suit a melee hunter well; Jab, Fend and Impale.

Also not sure if it's doable but one thing made sense, would allow long aspect dance and was a good change - hunter having focus as a resource instead of mana. It's not a paladin using spells, a hunter having mana makes as much sense as the rogue having mana.

What would be awesome is if the hunter and all classes had race based abilities like the priest does.
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Geojak
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Geojak » Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:09 pm

I think it could be cool if meele hunters habe a way to trade their pet for extra combat power in meele. Meele hunter shouldn't have a tanking pet anymore imo.

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:18 am

Yes and no

Pet is the essence of the Hunter

In fact i tank more than my pet (this is where cower shines)

And remember a melee hunter isnt a full melee class. If you are focused you wil die very quickly. You will dodge a lot of attacks but not all of them and your armor and hp is low
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Allwynd01
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Allwynd01 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:32 pm

I think the main problem with a melee Hunter at this point before the class changes are implemented is that the Hunter's DPS output is very low.

After deciding to play a melee-only Hunter just to prepare mentally for the changes, even not using a ranged weapon for the sake of going full-melee, I realized how lacking the abilities are.

Aspect of the Monkey + Mongoose Bite is something that happens very rarely.
Raptor Strike has too long of a cooldown.
Wing Clip is completely useless as a melee ability, even more so when it isn't combined with ranged combat.


My suggestions to fix this are as follows:

- Make Aspect of the Wolf also provide some of the dodge chance of Aspect of the Monkey, or somehow to trigger Mongoose Bite a bit more.
- Raptor Strike needs a shorter cooldown.
- Wing Clip should have some increased damage so it serves some actual purpose, because in this scenario slowing the enemy's speed seems utterly pointless.
- If Wing Clip's damage won't be buffed, at least add another melee ability beside this new one called Lacerate or whatever it's going to be.

Geojak
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Geojak » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:06 pm

A spec pf Wolf could give proc changes to trigger mongoose bite activstion even without dodging on attack swings.

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Allwynd01
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Allwynd01 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:08 pm

Geojak wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:09 pm
I think it could be cool if meele hunters habe a way to trade their pet for extra combat power in meele. Meele hunter shouldn't have a tanking pet anymore imo.
I also disagree on this, pets are what defines Hunters and sets them apart, like Warlock's minions.

If you take a Warlock's minions away, it becomes a different flavor of Mage, if you take a Hunter's pet away, it effectively becomes some mixture between a Warrior and a Rogue. Also Hunter pets are fun because they add new and fun mechanics:

- if they die or get dismissed, they lose happiness and if they stay unhappy for too long they can lose loyalty
- happiness determines their damage so you have to feed them every now and then
- if they lose all loyalty they escape
- you can use pets for interesting pulls - I discovered one where I shoot at a pack of mobs, who I can't defeat at all, retreat back, they all chase me, then I set the pet who is on Passive to attack the one I attacked and then I used Feign Death and the other mobs would return to their original location and I would fight just one mob


In contrast Warlock's minions don't have the majority of these mechanics, the Mage (if it has Water elemental in Vanilla, don't know for sure) also doesn't have these mechanics.

Vladis
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Vladis » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:56 pm

Dear all, I would like to revive the debate on melee hunter. There are some great changes proposed here and I think they have great merit. CC traps do not have to be usable in combat but dps traps such as explo and flame trap could be changed in such way. MB and CA should scale in damage in some way and under the new Aspect of the Wolf should be made used without the parry and dodge conditions (for example as I proposed, to proc from melee and pet crits). I think there is huge space to introduce lore-friendly Rexxar-like melee hunter/beast master and still be true to vanilla gameplay. Thank you Raukodor for pointing me to this discussion. Given the newest patch notes, I think we should go few steps further with changed to melee hunter.

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:34 pm

True melee hunter is Bm so yes. Should have some synergy with the pet.

Maybe the flurry from improved wolf aspect could come from pet attacks too (and benefict the pet too)

Or mongoose proccing from crits/pet crits

And even gaining some buff from raptor/mongoose/lacerate wich put a debuff that increases the melee damage recived from the hunter and his pet

As i said a lot of times. The main issue is the scaling. All.melee skills dont scale with ap. Neither the pet. Maybe making a passive wich increases the stats of the pet a % from the hunter
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:46 pm

Another suggestion about adding new pet family's skill
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:03 am

Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

Garish
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Garish » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:14 pm

changes that I think make sense now(with the new talents) to make melee hunter viable(off-metabuild in pve(raids) or pvp)
1- better melee attack power scalling for melee skills(raptor strike as a "fill spell" like heroic strike, moogoose strike as a overpower skill damage wise)
2- survival hunter(?in wolf aspect?) able to put traps in combat.
3- lacerate(bleed based on melee ap) with a -healing debuff only usable in wolf aspect after parry/dodge or melee crit
4- more bosses with "aoe phases"(mob rush) for our entrapment(talent) frost trap strat usage
5- a dream... a attack skill with buff: that 1-advances the bleeding dot damage from lacerate 2- gives blade fury/sweeping strikers(hitting + mobs at once) call it "BLOODBATH".its a form of aoe in raids and "niche pvp" usage.

that would make "viable" a Attack speed aoe melee hunter build.

How about that guys? seems reasonable?
Last edited by Garish on Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jesterjacks
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Jesterjacks » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:21 pm

For the sake of keeping stuff in one post, I'll copy what I wrote myself here

My opinion: As it is, melee hunter is best done with Marskmanship because of the aura. If the server aims for melee hunter, perhaps survival should be the tree.

I'd like to suggest a talent that allows us to proc mongoose without dodge.

Another suggestion would be talent in survival to allow dps traps in combat

Wyvern sting replaced with something more fitting and/or an option between it and something melee.

Last suggestion is a buff to melee abilities, they scale horribly.

Kerenis
Posts: 34

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Kerenis » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:22 pm

Raukodor wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:14 am
Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?
Ive been playing with the idea that AotW should turn all shots into melee skills, but I dont think the engine would allow such level of programming

Garish
Posts: 52

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Garish » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:58 pm

Kerenis wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:22 pm
Raukodor wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:14 am
Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?
Ive been playing with the idea that AotW should turn all shots into melee skills, but I dont think the engine would allow such level of programming
"I dont think the engine would allow such level of programming" i think the same
look at my take on melee hunter changes

Vladis
Posts: 36

Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Vladis » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:19 pm

Raukodor wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:14 am
Any response to this? More melee hunters agree?
Yeah, we have to keep this debate alive. It would be great for melee hunters. The latest changes went the right direction.

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:04 pm

Yeah some time a go we talk about wolf aspect turns all shots into strikes

Wyvern strike. Arcane strike. Multi strike...

Those + skills scaling with ap could be a good idea. And melee hunter dont have any cleave damage so multi strike could solve this
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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Raukodor
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Re: Changes to MELEE HUNTER

Post by Raukodor » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 pm

But i dont know if its possible. And with the new shot turned into a kind of spammeable heroic strike (raptor is better with talent but have 5 sec cd talented)
Khanzo. Blademaster and Explorer

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