Final Changelog for Class Changes coming in 1.16.1

[Borzy]

imo. I don't know why people want to play the exact same game for 17 years

LMAO. This is actually hilarious tbh… considering there’s a reason we’re all playing vanilla.

I liked this server because it was vanilla, with the custom side being a reassuring sign this is someone’s passion project, so will not shut down like the many others. Despite the contradiction of the server-stand defending changes on basis of lore etc, people ignore, and I tolerated, rideable flying dragons, rideable undead mounts on alliance that just ruins Rivendares deathcharger, repair bots that ruin engineering etc etc. At the end of the day, it just has to be a good vanilla server, and I understood the server needs to make money.

Clearly the design direction is no longer Vanilla. I already disagree with undead hunters. And the new class overhaul removes the last reason for me to not just go play Ascension / TBC / WOTLK.

So, so long fellas. Hope y’all have fun.

[Lahire]

I'm against these changes because some of them look game breaking especially for pvp. I don't mind devs adding custom quests and dungeons, for they do little to the balance of the game, but class talent is core of the core of vanilla wow and should not be touched. I mean no disrespect to TWow devs, but I don't believe they have the proper tools to test the balancing. Vanilla wow classes are rock-paper-scissor, every class has its weakness and counter-classes. Trying to compensate that weakness without proper testing will lead to disastrous result. We like vanilla wow not only because of its questing, but also because of the imperfection and uniqueness of classes, and because the classes compensate each other. Do NOT try to "fix" the weakness of the classes please.

+1.
Good point to remember that in a MMORPG classes should complete/compensate each other, which means having specialties and weaknesses, because it is a multiplayer game and not a solo RPG game.

[Gnomoerectus]

I support the changes (not all of them, I think you probably went a bit overboard in a few places, but I agree with the idea of balancing classes) because even though Vanilla classes aren't supposed to be balanced around raiding this is a PvE server and raiding is the only real form of endgame PvE progression.

In an ideal world Vanilla would provide endgame content tailored around the strength of each class and there would be no need for any balancing, but that's not how things are. By the time 1.12 hit World of Warcraft already was a mostly raid-centric game. Vanilla class design is beautiful, but it doesn't fit the game it's in.

That being said I see a big problem with these changes: Warriors, whose only niche is being good at endgame PvE content, are getting pretty shafted. Every other class is getting buffs to their weaknesses but Warriors are getting nothing in terms of utility and solo potential, the areas where they arre the most lacking.

I know it's hard to feel any sympathy for warriors, but being the best group Tank/DPS is all they can do, they are bad levelers, bad farmers, bad soloers and have no in-and-out-of-combat utility which is balanced by them being the best DPS and tanks, provided a group is supporting them.

If other classes/specs are getting better at raiding it stands to reason that Warriors should be getting a buff to their weakspots aswell.

[Evillord]

I support the changes (not all of them, I think you probably went a bit overboard in a few places, but I agree with the idea of balancing classes) because even though Vanilla classes aren't supposed to be balanced around raiding this is a PvE server and raiding is the only real form of endgame PvE progression.

In an ideal world Vanilla would provide endgame content tailored around the strength of each class and there would be no need for any balancing, but that's not how things are. By the time 1.12 hit World of Warcraft already was a mostly raid-centric game. Vanilla class design is beautiful, but it doesn't fit the game it's in.

That being said I see a big problem with these changes: Warriors, whose only niche is being good at endgame PvE content, are getting pretty shafted. Every other class is getting buffs to their weaknesses but Warriors are getting nothing in terms of utility and solo potential, the areas where they arre the most lacking.

I know it's hard to feel any sympathy for warriors, but being the best group Tank/DPS is all they can do, they are bad levelers, bad farmers, bad soloers and have no in-and-out-of-combat utility which is balanced by them being the best DPS and tanks, provided a group is supporting them.

If other classes/specs are getting better at raiding it stands to reason that Warriors should be getting a buff to their weakspots aswell.

Which I think that is a rather fair point. Of course it funny how in this very thread we have someone throw out the term meta slave [ a term often used to shut someone down without really making a case so you can just paint them as the bad guy], while not seeming to notice this game is old and data has been collect many times over. Showing that yeah, a ret paladin is going to do far worst than a rogue or warrior when it comes to dps. Noticing a class is lacking in something like warrior being a slow leveler, is not really being a meta slave but rather noticing core issues with the design. Which is why it's rare to see a respec cost these days in mmos, for that limits player choice and fun, stopping them from trying out all sorts of fun new creative builds and rather making them more meta focus, since there is a clear punishment for picking fun skills/build over the meta ones or even trying out many different builds to find that one which fits them vs sticking to one. Their in game gold. For well wow like any other game is flawed, while some claim it had a perfect rock paper balance for pvp, without really explaining how it had a ideal rock paper balance for pvp, making it seem like a empty statement for anyone who doesn't share their knowledge. For maybe they are right on the money but I wouldn't know, due to being to vague in their wording.

While pve issues here are rather well known and wide spread common knowledge. Heck once the new changes are in place. Paladins might become even better at leveling, since now they can get their hands on key talents for their aoe grinding builds like blessing of sanctuary sooner rather than later. Which is normally pair up with a shield spike, so they can get reduce damage and deal damage out from both the blessing their shield spike at once when they block. Along with their main aoe spell for both tanking and grinding being base kit, cheaper to mana cost and scaling better with spell power. While they might not be the fastest levelers around, they are more than likely going to get a boost in leveling speed with the upcoming changes. while warriors would still be warriors in terms of leveling speed. I think at this point, almost every class would be a fair bit better at leveling than warrior would be.

Of course I think your worries about things maybe going a bit overboard are well reasonable or at least stated so in a way. For I do believe no one wants a endless circle of one class being at top for five minutes before they get replaced by another one or one class becoming bottom of the barrel before getting replace by a new bottom of the barrel class. Since I do believe everyone wants to be able to enjoy their favor class and spec, enjoying the things only their class can do while also being fairly balance that it's less clear who would the be the best of the best. For well even in basic rts systems that use a rock paper system style of balance. Spears counter horse, horse counters archers, archers counter spears. Each unit does have it's own thing that makes them stand out from one another, archers can fire from range, horses are fast but weak in melee. Having their own strengths and weakness while still remaining rather well balance. Which I believe is what would be the ideal balance here. Each class/spec being good in their own right but also different.

[Bayanni]

Without changes, most strictly vanilla servers die in 3 years. This is simply due to the nature of their progression through the content and, once the bulk of the playerbase has seen most or all of naxx, there's nothing left for them so some pvp and others just get bored and leave, and the pvpers soon follow since there's simply less numbers. It's a death spiral I've seen on many pservers before this one and on several other private game servers (Nox, JOTOR, CoH/CoV, RO, etc).

The servers that did outlast the regular lifespan of a private server for all of these games innovated on the content available. The Nox server added new arenas and quest portals. RO changed the newbie experience and added in warps. CoH/CoV added in QoL changes and some cut content. All of them made the experience bigger and typically better for the players, and the developers passions helped alleviate the problems of hobbyists adjusting the product of large corporations.

If my experience with similar things, although not as all-around affecting as these changes will be, is anything to go by, this is what pservers need to do to elevate themselves above the 3-year boom and bust cycle of most other projects and keep a population stable or growing well past its expiration date. I welcome them, with critique, because this is a unique experience I have cherished so far and hope to continue to do so after we're all tired and move on eventually, but not yet.


I'd debate the merits of the changes themselves, not if they are coming. Some in this thread seem to be straying from that idea and are more intent on being snide. As the OP said this is not set-in-stone, and critique with some substance behind it will assuredly go farther than most of what's being said against these proposals.

[Lonjo]

This is quite a lot of work being put up here. I always figured if the devs ever did any class adjustments it just be a few talents at the bottom of the trees. But adding new abilities on top of it all is just so unexpected. I mean what’s next, giving rogues bucklers!?!

Anyway really looking forward to how this plays out, excellent work imo.

[Merikkinon]

For now I just wanna believe in the devs and that this will ultimately be a good addition. I get the pro/con arguments, but I'm just gonna suck it up and hope for the best.

Still a fantastic, amazing, enjoyable server. I am ok to 'let go' of any anxiety about how it might shift the game.

I'm not sure there is much else to do other than roll out of here. So let's just hope for the best.

[Chaossonic]

Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just straight up too powerful for the game. That being said, this just means that any change made to the class must down one of two things only: either optimize what doesn’t work but should for the class, or improve on suboptimal playstyles to allow for more options for the player. The changes proposed for the coming patch attempt to stick within those guidelines.

Okay I've been nice on my last 2 posts, but this write-up is lazy. This misses the mark on identifying the problems of the class and breaking the difficulties of each specialization. Arms and Fury are really fun specs and they scale extremely well with all the buffs and loot in vanilla.

I know people have already complained about Fury/Prot being a "new" meta that is ruining the game, which is completely false. Back in the day, my guild just called it DPS tanking, we didn't care if an Arms or Fury warrior was doing it, just as long they were wrapped enough plate/resist armor that a healer could keep them up. If you were in a hardcore raiding guild back in OG vanilla, you will remember this being a valid tactic. Some fights we just didn't want to wait for 5 Sunders, especially the Untauntable fights! If there is any spec that needs help, it is only the Protection tree.

The core value of DPS tanking is that it is an attempt to bypass timed mechanics in boss fights. On the design front simply changing encounters to have health percentage mechanics instead of time events can help out but even this can only go so far.

So let's just get to the core of the problem, most people don't want encounters to last too long. Looking back at the history of the Warcraft RTS, you built an army/unit so that you could quickly end the scenario, and running dungeons and raiding is no different.

Protection was built around survivability, but the name "Protection" isn't suppose to just apply to just the warrior, it needed to apply to party members too. The major problem with Protection is that it's capability to snap and retain threat has to be at a higher level than that of a DPS Tank and the build needs to make the healers job easier to keep the warrior alive. If those 2 criteria can be meet then you have a recipe for success.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Thunderclap can now be used in Defensive Stance.

No, don't do this! You're devaluing Tactical Mastery. Make it a talent at the very least in the Defensive Tree.

New Abilities

New Ability: Intervene | 10 Rage, 30 second cooldown | Requires Defensive Stance
Run at high speed towards a party member, intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them.
Note: Shares a cooldown with Intercept.

New Ability: Decisive Strike | 15 Rage | 2 Second Cast
Focus an attack equal to Slam (Rank 4) on an opponent. Can be cast while moving and will not suffer cast time pushback when taking damage.
Note: Credit to Wall (Video) of Wallcraft for his brilliant rework of Slam.
Note: The cast time of Decisive Strike is reduced by Improved Slam.

New Passive: Die by the Sword
Increases your chance to parry attacks by 20% while under the effect of Retaliation.

Intervene - I can deal with this being added, but maybe if it were part of a talent deep in the Protection tree. If you just give it baseline to all warriors, you only going to make problems worse for pure Protection warriors, and it should include a massive threat increase to mobs in a 10 to 20 foot area.

Decisive Strike - Maybe, just no! You just got through stating that warrior was overpowered and then can go do this! On the design front understand the shortcomings and make calculated changes, this is too far a broad stroke.

Die by the Sword - OMG!!! You just literally said Warrior was overpowered and do this too! Retaliation is already an amazing ability, albeit its cooldown could be changed.

Talent Changes

Arms

Improved Thunder Clap (Row 2). Reduces the cost of your Thunder Clap ability by 1/2/4 rage points and increases the damage by 40/70/100%.

Polearm Specialization (Row 6) has been combined into Axe Specialization (Row 5) and renamed Poleaxe Specialization (Row 5).

New Talent: Improved Disciplines (Row 6). Reduces the cooldown of your Retaliation, Recklessness and Shield Wall abilities by 2/4/6 min.

Improved Thunder Clap - Maybe focus on Protection talents before going here.

Polearm and Axe Specialization - Surprisingly I'm okay with this alteration.

Improved Disciplines - I agree with it working on Retaliation only with a much higher reduction. Maybe 8 minutes at a time, 8/16/24.

Protection

Improved Shield Block has been reduced from 3 ranks down to 1 rank. Allows your Shield Block ability to block an additional attack and increases the duration by 1 second.

Improved Shield Block - This does not fix the problem of the Protection tree, it just makes it easier to DPS tank.


With Hybrid classes I'm much more flexible with changes, especially the non healing ones for PvE. Then to point out that a class has issues, then plan for abilities that cause those problems to be worse is not good.

With Warrior you really need to sit down and have a meeting, feel free to invite me or other community members, but these changes completely miss the mark.

[Chaossonic]

Sorry for double posting.

[Chaossonic]

+1.
Good point to remember that in a MMORPG classes should complete/compensate each other, which means having specialties and weaknesses, because it is a multiplayer game and not a solo RPG game.

Again I'm okay with changes, but I agree with this statement too. When changes are implemented they need to take into account what other classes bring to the table.

Warriors on the Horde in vanilla did so well because every raid came to understand the value of Windfury Totem. It's no wonder that Tauren Bear Druids got left in the dust, they can't benefit from Windfury Totem.

Since Alliance and Horde get to team up on this server, many of problems specs are having can be cured. Some of the problems with certain specs can be easily fixed by just allowing Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring Totem to stack, kinda like they do in TBC.

After going over the Warrior changes, I'm a little distraught. If those alterations are implemented, there will be more problems than fixes.

[Rafale]

After a few days of thinking, I decide to give again my thoughts on those changes, in a less class centric vision but more general vision of what this server brings.

The goal of Turtle Wow, as it says on the website, is to bring a "unique wow experience". In that goal, every change that will take something that was already proposed in later expansion is not something players will really want here. The new quests,new spells, new items, new zones are things which made Turtle Wow a unique experience.

To illustrate that argument, I can give you a good example : You guys can compare how many High elfs were created here, compared to goblins.

With that goal in mind, lets begin with druids changes :

Claw now also deals 100% of weapon damage in addition to its current damage.
Note: This value is calculated on the invisible Claw weapon druid forms get when shapeshifting and does not correspond with your normal weapon.

Big YES. This is a good balance. You bring something to make ferals better without breaking at all the identity and giving them more gear choices.

Frenzied Regeneration now also heals for 1% of your Stamina.

YES. More scaling, same ability.

Insect Swarm is now a Balance spell and available to all Druids starting at level 20.

Big YES. People never understood why this spell was in resto.

Faerie Fire (Feral) is now available to all Druids starting at level 30.

My first NO. the FF in form is a part of feral identity. Giving that to all druids affect feral identity.

Owlkin Frenzy
Attacks done to you while in Moonkin Form have a 15% chance to cause you to go into a Frenzy, causing you to be immune to pushback while casting Balance spells. Lasts 10 sec.

Big NO. This is a WOTLK talent without mana regen part. This is not vanilla. I would love to not suffer from pushback. This is a problem in PVP. The solution is to give a pvp item (like lock gloves with 50% pushback resistance on searing pain).

Savage Bite
Learned at Level 58 | Requires Bear Form | 30 Rage | 6 Second Cooldown
Savagely bites the target, dealing normal damage plus 61.

Big YES. This is new, this answers the pbm of autoattack dodged when maintanking

Natural Weapons | Now 3 Ranks (down from 5)
Increases the damage you deal with physical in all forms by 4/7/10% and increases your chance to hit with melee attacks and spells by 1/2/3%.

Big YES but I would just add "with physical and magical attacks" to buff moonkin damage by 10% (not OP at all seeing their state).

Improved Wrath
Reduces the cast time and global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 sec.

Big YES. Having a crit on wrath was just useless. This change makes Moonkin more bursty.

Moonkin Form
Transforms the Druid into Moonkin Form. While in this form the armor contribution from items is increased by 360%, the Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, and Wrath spells reduced by 20%, and all party members within 30 yards have their spell critical chance increased by 3%. The Moonkin can only cast Balance spells, Innervate, and Remove Curse while shapeshifted.

Big YES but don't forget to change "Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, and Wrath spells" by "all balance spells". Why ? Because insect swarm and Hurricane need to be reduced too.

Omen of Clarity
Imbues the Druid with natural energy. Each of the Druid's melee attacks and direct damage spell casts have a chance of causing the caster to enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the Mana, Rage or Energy cost of your next damage or healing spell or offensive ability by 100%. Lasts 10 min.

Big YES. It should have always be like that.

Primal Fury and Blood Frenzy have had their existing effects combined into Primal Fury: Gives you a 50/100% chance to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you get a critical strike while in Bear and Dire Bear Form and your critical strikes from Cat Form abilities that add combo points have a 50/100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Yes but not a big YES because this changes is just giving 2 more talent points and some druids can think it breaks the "bear" or "cat" talent trees, which was different.

Reduced the ranks of Thick Hide from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
Increases your Armor contribution from items by 4/7/10%.

Yes, 2 more talent points but same idea than the change below.

Feral Instinct reduced from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
İncreases threat caused in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while PRowling.

Same.

New Talent: Blood Frenzy (Row 4) | 2 Ranks
Increases the duration of Tiger's Fury by 3/6 seconds and your Enrage now also instantly restores 5/10 rage. In addition, increases attack speed by 6/12% when either effect is active.

Big YES if persistant after powershift.

New Talent: Berserk (Row 5) | 5 Minute Cooldown
Removes all Fear effects and increases your energy regeneration rate by 100% while in Cat form, and increases your total health by 20% while in Bear form. After the effect ends, the health is lost. Effect lasts 15 seconds.

Big NO. Cats and bears are not rogues or wars. If we follow the server goal, we need something really new. Btw, if all feral changes below are applied, they don't need that or they will be OP.

Swiftmend has moved from a Row 7 to a Row 3 talent, replacing Insect Swarm.

Big YES. I'm OK with that. It's indirect buff to moonkin solo/pvp which put some points in resto.

Tranquil Spirit is no longer a prerequisite for the Row 7 major talent.

Big YES, no synergy between those talents so no reason for prerequisite.

Improved Rejuvenation is now a prerequisite talent for Improved Regrowth.

Yes. Logic.

Improved Enrage has been removed from the Restoration tree and has been integrated into the new talent Blood Frenzy.

Yes, but what on this place now ?

Subtlety now also reduces threat generated from Balance spells.
Reduces the threat generated by your Healing and Balance spells by 4/8/12/16/20%.

Big Yes, buff to moonkin PVE there.

New Talent: Tree of Life Form (Row 7)
Shapeshift into the Tree of Life. While in this form you increase healing received by 15% of your total Spirit for all party members within 30 yards, your movement speed is reduced by 20%, and you can only cast Swiftmend, Innervate, Nature's Swiftness, Rebirth, Barkskin, poison removing and healing over time spells, but the mana cost of these spells is reduced by 20%.

The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of Polymorph and Movement Impairing effects.

Huge NO. Tree of life is a BC spell. If people want to play ToL drood, they go BC or retail. In vanilla, restodruid has a unique playstyle base on human form and other forms in PVP. I agree that restodruids are behind in PVE but they have solid spec choices: 21/0/30, 24/0/27, and X/0/31+ are solids specs. Give druids the benefit of Tree of life without the spell to not break identity/gameplay :

New Talent: Life Giver (Row 7)
While in human form you increase healing received by 15% of your total Spirit for all party members within 30 yards.

Resto druids will have to choose between sniper heal with nature grace in balance tree or giving buff to all healers with this 31 points in resto. Strategic choice ! Also, it will not change at all the gameplay of a resto druid, with the same variety of spells.

And Last, I will add a new change to an under-used talent / spell :

Improved Tranquility (Row 5)
Reduces threat caused by Tranquility by 50/100% and increases the healing by 30/60%

Thx for reading !

[Rafale]

Now, as I did with druid, I will give my thoughts on paladin changes, keeping th Turtle Wow Spirit ("unique vanilla experience for players").

Consecration is no longer a talent and is now available to all Paladins starting at level 20, its scaling coefficient has been increased (0.042 -> 0.119) and mana cost for all ranks has been reduced. Example: Rank 5 Mana Cost 565 -> 505

Big YES. On private servers, consecrate used to scale from AP. The scaling on SP is currently very weak, and having a good AOE spell is something paladins could bring on the table, good things for all paladin specs.

Judgement of Righteousness scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.5 -> 0.728)

Big YES. This changes fits the BC judgement scaling, doesn't change the spell which will just be a bit better with gear.

Retribution Aura scaling coefficient has been added: (0.033)

Yes BUT what about Druid Thorns, or other damage on hit mechanics (Imp spell) ? Will you give them scaling too ? I think it's a good idea, but it need to stay LOW.

Holy Strike cooldown increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds.

Yes. small change.

Crusader Strike
A strike that causes X damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to Y per Crusader Strike. Can be applied up to 5 times. Lasts 30 seconds.
Rank 1: 25 Mana, 12 Damage, 6 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 2: 40 Mana, 27 Damage, 10 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 3: 55 Mana, 46 Damage, 15 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 4: 70 Mana, 69 Damage, 22 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 5: 90 Mana, 103 Damage, 30 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Crusader Strike is not able to proc seals, damage-based procs, or refresh judgements.

Big NO. Bringing a new ability which is just a bad sunder armor breaks the paladin and war identity. It will cost a ton of mana and will be a problem for paladins anyway. Remember: You want to improve vanilla. Don't bring retail things or don't copy war identity. The solution is here (change on Improved Seal of the crusader) :

Improved Seal of the Crusader (Row 3)
Gives the paladin's judgements a 33/66/100% chance to put a judgement of the crusader on the target, and increase the holy damage increase by 5/10/15%.

Healing Light (Row 3)
Increases the amount healed by your Holy Light, Flash of Light, and the effectiveness Holy Shock spells by 4/8/12%.

Yes, logic.

Holy Shock | Rework: (Values are for Rank 3):
Cooldown reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.
Mana cost increased from 325 to 485.
Healing Increased from 365 to 628.
Damage increased from 365 to 496.

Big Yes : this will integrate this spell in the rotation more often.

Lasting Judgements (Row 5) removed.

Big YES: This is a buff for ret/prot which need to maintain jugdement.

Redoubt and now has a 2/4/6/8/10% chance to activate off of any direct attack instead of being the victim of a critical strike.

Big YES. This should have always work like that.

Precision. Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons and spells by 1/2/3%.

Yes. It fits other class changes.

Blessing of Kings has been moved from the Row 3] of the Protection talent tree to the Row 3 of the Retribution talent tree.

Yes. Bok use to be a ret talent. No problem to give them back.

Shield Specialization. Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30% and has a 33/66/100% chance to restore 1% mana when a block occurs. This effect cannot occur more than once every second.

Huge YES. That is the biggest UP for prot pals.

Improved Consecration Aura has been moved from the Row 4 of the Protection talent tree to the Row 5 of the Holy talent tree.

Big YES, this talents should already be there.

New Talent: Improved Seal of Justice (Row 4). Increases the chance your Seal of Justice will stun the opponent by 22/33/67% and your Judgement of Justice has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

NO. Palatanks need a taunt, that is perfectly true. But Palatanks need to be hit because BoSanc, Holy Shield, Ret aura, redoubt work on being hit. In that spirit, a seal which stun target prevents the paladin from being hit. That's a problem which was said before. Btw, Paladins don't "taunt" people, they bring people to the light. I think you could add something to the Improved Righteous Fury talent (pure tanking talent) :

Improved Righteous Fury (Row 3)
Increases the amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16/33/50% and gives your judgement spell a 33/66/100% chance to force the target to attack you when used under Righteous Fury effect.

Blessing of Sanctuary has been moved from Row 5 to Row 3 in the Protection tree

Yes.

Holy Shield moved from Row 7 to Row 5.

Yes.

New Talent: Ardent Defender (Row 7). When you have less than 20% health, all damage taken is reduced by 35%.

Yes.

Seal of Command moved from Row 3 to Row 5.

Yes. Why not, Only rets use that. The buff on SoR will make it more cool for Holy and prot.

Sanctity Aura has been moved from the Row 5 of the Retribution talent tree to the Row 3 of the Holy talent tree.

Yes. Ret will still get it, i'm OK with that.

Greater Blessing of Kings' Mana Cost has been adjusted: (150 Mana -> 15% Base Mana)

Yes. GBoK spam needs to die.

I just miss a last change here to give ret utility and improve a talent with a small impactful change. The debuff need to work exactly like the "Screech" pet spell (link : https://database.turtle-wow.org/?spell=24582) , and replace it (a bit stronger). Our Hunters friends will apreciate to use a wolf instead to buff their dps :

Vindication (Row 3). Gives the paladin's damaging melees attacks a chance to reduce the target's attack power by 4/7/10% of the current paladin's attack power.

Give me Feedback !!

[Jcarrill0]

Greetings amazing community!

Since the start of Turtle WoW our mission has always been to provide a unique Vanilla experience by either picking up where Blizzard left off or, in this case, altering or enhancing certain existing aspects of the game to uphold current standards.

Since Turtle’s earliest days we’ve seen and heard players suggest class changes, all with differing opinions and viewpoints, each and every of these has been taken into account and we all wish to thank you for your passion and insights.

After much deliberation, many discussions and lots of tinkering the Turtle Team would like to announce our upcoming class changes that are planned for 15.2.

DISCLAIMER: All of these changes are tentative and subject to change. The final changelog will be published alongside the release of 15.2.

We want to welcome all of you to discuss & give constructive feedback on any changes made in this list.



The vanilla design of the Druid is infamous for being pretty unfinished. Its mechanics weren’t fully realized until well into the first expansion. Because of this, there’s a lot of freedom on how to improve on the class while sticking with the “vanilla feeling.” That said, simply attempting to recreate the druid of later expansions is a cop-out, but we feel incorporating some iconic and fan-favorite abilities would be a good idea.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Claw now also deals 100% of weapon damage in addition to its current damage.
Note: This value is calculated on the invisible Claw weapon druid forms get when shapeshifting and does not correspond with your normal weapon.

Frenzied Regeneration now also heals for 1% of your Stamina.

Insect Swarm is now a Balance spell and available to all Druids starting at level 20.

Faerie Fire (Feral) is now available to all Druids starting at level 30.

New Abilities

Owlkin Frenzy
Attacks done to you while in Moonkin Form have a 15% chance to cause you to go into a Frenzy, causing you to be immune to pushback while casting Balance spells. Lasts 10 sec.

Savage Bite
Learned at Level 58 | Requires Bear Form | 30 Rage | 6 Second Cooldown
Savagely bites the target, dealing normal damage plus 61.

Talent Changes

Balance

Natural Weapons | Now 3 Ranks (down from 5)
Increases the damage you deal with physical in all forms by 4/7/10% and increases your chance to hit with melee attacks and spells by 1/2/3%.

Improved Wrath
Reduces the cast time and global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 sec.

Moonkin Form
Transforms the Druid into Moonkin Form. While in this form the armor contribution from items is increased by 360%, the Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, and Wrath spells reduced by 20%, and all party members within 30 yards have their spell critical chance increased by 3%. The Moonkin can only cast Balance spells, Innervate, and Remove Curse while shapeshifted.

Omen of Clarity
Imbues the Druid with natural energy. Each of the Druid's melee attacks and direct damage spell casts have a chance of causing the caster to enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the Mana, Rage or Energy cost of your next damage or healing spell or offensive ability by 100%. Lasts 10 min.

Feral

Primal Fury and Blood Frenzy have had their existing effects combined into Primal Fury: Gives you a 50/100% chance to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you get a critical strike while in Bear and Dire Bear Form and your critical strikes from Cat Form abilities that add combo points have a 50/100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Reduced the ranks of Thick Hide from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
Increases your Armor contribution from items by 4/7/10%.

Feral Instinct reduced from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
İncreases threat caused in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while PRowling.

New Talent: Blood Frenzy (Row 4) | 2 Ranks
Increases the duration of Tiger's Fury by 3/6 seconds and your Enrage now also instantly restores 5/10 rage. In addition, increases attack speed by 6/12% when either effect is active.

New Talent: Berserk (Row 5) | 5 Minute Cooldown
Removes all Fear effects and increases your energy regeneration rate by 100% while in Cat form, and increases your total health by 20% while in Bear form. After the effect ends, the health is lost. Effect lasts 15 seconds.

Restoration

Swiftmend has moved from a Row 7 to a Row 3 talent, replacing Insect Swarm.

Tranquil Spirit is no longer a prerequisite for the Row 7 major talent.

Improved Rejuvenation is now a prerequisite talent for Improved Regrowth.

Improved Enrage has been removed from the Restoration tree and has been integrated into the new talent Blood Frenzy.

Subtlety now also reduces threat generated from Balance spells.
Reduces the threat generated by your Healing and Balance spells by 4/8/12/16/20%.

New Talent: Tree of Life Form (Row 7)
Shapeshift into the Tree of Life. While in this form you increase healing received by 15% of your total Spirit for all party members within 30 yards, your movement speed is reduced by 20%, and you can only cast Swiftmend, Innervate, Nature's Swiftness, Rebirth, Barkskin, poison removing and healing over time spells, but the mana cost of these spells is reduced by 20%.

The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of Polymorph and Movement Impairing effects.



Hunter’s main problem in vanilla comes down to two issues: DPS does not scale well with their gear so they tend to not be competitive in endgame stages, and their pets are particularly fragile in a raid setting, often leading to them not being used. Burning Crusade fixed these problems at the same time with pet scaling, Kill Command, and Steady Shot abilities - leading them becoming massively overpowered. Avoiding this while also addressing their vanilla issues can be done by not giving them all three at once.

New Abilities

Trueshot
A precise shot with a ranged weapon that strikes the target for X additional damage. (Cooldown of this ability is equal to the attack speed of your ranged weapon.)
Rank 1: 10 Additional Damage, 15 Mana
Rank 2: 20 Additional Damage, 40 Mana
Rank 3: 30 Additional Damage, 60 Mana
Rank 4: 40 Additional Damage, 85 Mana
Rank 5: 50 Additional Damage, 110 Mana

Lacerate
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for X% of your melee attack power over 21 sec.
(Value still under discussion.)

Aspect of the Wolf | 120 Mana
The hunter takes on the aspects of a wolf, increasing melee attack power by 120 and disabling the use of ranged attacks. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Avoidance | Pet Passive
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of effect attacks by an additional X%.
Rank 1: 25%
Rank 2: 50%

Talent Changes

Beast Mastery

Improved Eyes of the Beast
Increases the duration of Eyes of the Beast by 30/60 seconds. While channeling this ability your tamed pet deals 5/10% additional damage and increases its focus generation by 10/20%.



There isn’t much to improve on for the Fire and Frost mage specs in vanilla - they are tightly designed and synergize well with other mages very well. That said, Arcane falls far behind despite having an opportunity to fill its own niche, and the possibility of encouraging the Elemental Mage playstyle.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Arcane Missiles: Spell Power scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.24 -> 0.286)

Talent Changes:

Arcane

Improved Arcane Explosion > Arcane Impact
Increases the critical strike chance of your Arcane Explosion and Arcane Missiles spell's by an additional 2/4/6%.

New Talent: Brilliance Aura (Row 5)
Allows 15% Mana regeneration to continue while casting for party members within 30 yards. Lasts 30 minutes. Requires Arcane Meditation and Arcane Mind as prerequisite talents.



Let’s be frank - the only good thing a paladin can do in vanilla is heal. Sure, with the right setup you can do decent tanking or decent dps, but it still doesn’t all quite come together. A lot of the potential and uniqueness to the class has always attracted people to it, but that was progressively lost over time in retail post-vanilla. We believe there is a lot of opportunity to help the Paladin perform more than just healing adequately without making them too powerful or “warrior-lite.”

Changes to Baseline Spells

Consecration is no longer a talent and is now available to all Paladins starting at level 20, its scaling coefficient has been increased (0.042 -> 0.119) and mana cost for all ranks has been reduced. Example: Rank 5 Mana Cost 565 -> 505

Judgement of Righteousness scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.5 -> 0.728)

Retribution Aura scaling coefficient has been added: (0.033)

Holy Strike cooldown increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds.

New Abilities

Crusader Strike
A strike that causes X damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to Y per Crusader Strike. Can be applied up to 5 times. Lasts 30 seconds.
Rank 1: 25 Mana, 12 Damage, 6 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 2: 40 Mana, 27 Damage, 10 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 3: 55 Mana, 46 Damage, 15 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 4: 70 Mana, 69 Damage, 22 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 5: 90 Mana, 103 Damage, 30 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Crusader Strike is not able to proc seals, damage-based procs, or refresh judgements.

Talent Changes

Holy

Healing Light (Row 3)
Increases the amount healed by your Holy Light, Flash of Light, and the effectiveness Holy Shock spells by 4/8/12%.

Holy Shock | Rework: (Values are for Rank 3):
Cooldown reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.
Mana cost increased from 325 to 485.
Healing Increased from 365 to 628.
Damage increased from 365 to 496.

Lasting Judgements (Row 5) removed.

Protection

Redoubt and now has a 2/4/6/8/10% chance to activate off of any direct attack instead of being the victim of a critical strike.

Precision. Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons and spells by 1/2/3%.

Blessing of Kings has been moved from the Row 3] of the Protection talent tree to the Row 3 of the Retribution talent tree.

Shield Specialization. Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30% and has a 33/66/100% chance to restore 1% mana when a block occurs. This effect cannot occur more than once every second.

Improved Consecration Aura has been moved from the Row 4 of the Protection talent tree to the Row 5 of the Holy talent tree.

New Talent: Improved Seal of Justice (Row 4). Increases the chance your Seal of Justice will stun the opponent by 22/33/67% and your Judgement of Justice has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

Blessing of Sanctuary has been moved from Row 5 to Row 3 in the Protection tree.

Holy Shield moved from Row 7 to Row 5.

New Talent: Ardent Defender (Row 7). When you have less than 20% health, all damage taken is reduced by 35%.

Retribution

Seal of Command moved from Row 3 to Row 5.
Sanctity Aura has been moved from the Row 5 of the Retribution talent tree to the Row 3 of the Holy talent tree.
Greater Blessing of Kings' Mana Cost has been adjusted: (150 Mana -> 15% Base Mana)



Shadow priests are notorious for being good, but also not. Their mana economy is horrendous and comes with several downsides other dps+caster hybrids don’t have to work around. The challenge for Shadow is to boost its utility and mana economy without increasing their power, as their damage per second is actually very good already.

Changes to Baseline Spells:

Holy Fire initial damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.75 -> 0.857)

Divine Spirit (Row 5) is now baseline for all Priests starting at level 30.

Lightwell (Row 7) has been made baseline and is available for all Priests starting at level 40.

New Abilities

New Passive: Improved Shadowform. Reduces the Mana cost of your Shadow spells by 15% while in Shadowform.

New Ability: Pain Spike | Learned at Level 60 | 15 Second Cooldown
Causes 225 Shadow damage instantly, but the damage caused will begin healing itself over 5 seconds after landing.

New Ability: Shadow Nova | Learned at Level 60 | 635 Mana Cost | 30 Second Cooldown
Causes an explosion of cursed shadow around the caster, causing 181 to 209 Shadow damage to all enemy targets within 8 yards. This effect causes increased threat.

Talent Changes:

Shadow

Effects of Improved Vampiric Embrace have been rolled into the base ability.

Improved Vampiric Touch has been replaced by Vampiric Embrace: Vampiric Embrace also restores 2/5% of shadow spell damage you deal to the target as mana for your party.

Holy

Holy Nova damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.107 -> 0.161)

New Talent: Holy Champion (Row 7)
Allows you to choose another player as your holy champion, granting you several unique abilities:

Proclaim Champion | 250 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 2 Hour Cooldown
Proclaim the friendly target as your champion for 2 hrs. Increases armor by 230, all resistances by 10 and allows the use of various Champion spells on that target.
Note: Persists through death and continues its duration and cooldown countdowns while offline.
Note: Armor buff does not stack with Scroll of Protection IV

Champion’s Grace | 250 Mana Cost
Bestow the target Champion with grace, increasing all healing done by the priest by 10%. Lasts 2 hrs.

Champion’s Bond | 250 Mana Cost
Creates a bond between priest and Champion. When the priest takes damage up to 20 will be taken by the Champion instead. Lasts 10 min.

Empower Champion | 1100 Mana Cost
Empower the target Champion, increasing all healing and spell damage done by up to 25 and attack power by 30. Lasts 2 hrs.
Note: Does not stack effects with Greater Arcane Elixir or Juju Power/Elixir of Giants

Summon Champion | 1150 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 4 Hour Cooldown
Summon the priest's Champion from anywhere in the world.

Revive Champion | 81% Base Mana Cost | 2 Second Cast
Return the priest's Champion to life with 2500 health and 2600 mana.
Note: Cannot be cast in combat.

Discipline

New Talent: Reflective Shields (Row 5)
Causes 15% of the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield to reflect back at the attacker. This damage causes no threat.



Not a lot to say for Rogues. If anything, Combat being the only viable talent spec in PvE all the way to late AQ40/Naxx is unfortunate. Debuff cap limits and some new abilities to add to their toolkit without majorly changing the way the class functions is something we believe Rogue players are looking for.

New Abilities

Surprise Attack | 30 Energy | 15 Second Cooldown
A strike that deals 100% weapon damage. This attack cannot be blocked, dodged or parried. Awards 1 combo point.

Flourish | 25 Energy
Finishing move that increases your chance to parry by an additional 20%. Lasts longer per combo point:
1 Point : 3 Seconds
2 Points: 4 Seconds
3 Points: 5 Seconds
4 Points: 6 Seconds
5 Points: 7 Seconds

Talent Changes

Combat

Dagger Specialization (Row 4) and Fist Weapon Specialization (Row 5) have been combined into Close Quarters Combat (Row 4): Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers and Fist Weapons by 1/2/3/4/5%.



Elemental and Enhancement both have struggles in PvE that can be addressed somewhat easily. Restoration is pretty solid in vanilla, but its talent tree leaves a lot to be desired - something to keep in mind for the future.

Changes to Baseline Spells

New Rank 2 of Stormstrike added, learnable at level 60. Differences from Rank 1: Cooldown is 12 seconds as opposed to the 20 seconds of Rank 1. Costs 12% of your base Mana as opposed to 21% of your base Mana with Rank 1.

Talent Changes

Enhancement

Two-Handed Weapons (Row) and Parry (Row 5) are now baseline for all Shamans and trainable at level 20.

New Talent: Thunderhead (Row 3).
Allows your Lightning Shield to be cast on allies and reduces its mana cost by 20%.

Stormstrike has been moved from Row 7 to Row 5.

New Talent: Bloodlust (Row 7)
Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 20% for a party member within 30 yards. Lasts 15 sec.

New Shaman Racial Spells

Orc: Feral Spirit | 21% Base Mana cost, 5 minute cooldown
Summons two Spirit Wolves under the command of the Shaman for 20 seconds.

Tauren: Spirit Link | 21% Base Mana cost, 10 minute cooldown.
Link the spirits of an ally and their 3 closest allies within 15 yards together. When linked targets take damage, 10% is distributed among the other linked allies. Lasts 20 seconds.

Troll: Hex | 21% Base Mana cost, 5 minute cooldown.
Transforms the enemy into a frog that cannot cast, and does 60% less damage for up to 5 seconds. Only works on Beasts, Humanoids and Critters.

Restoration

Tidal Mastery (Row 1) and Totemic Focus (Tier 2) have switched positions.
Ancestral Healing (Tier 3) and Nature’s Guidance (Tier 4) have switched positions.

Elemental

Elemental Focus (Row 3) changed: after landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 40%.

Flame Shock initial damage increased and mana cost decreased:
Example: Rank 6
Mana Cost: 450 -> 410
Initial Damage: 292 -> 309



PvE is the only area where Warlock has an issue - they’re boring! A class with as much cool stuff in its toolkit should not have to be limited to just spamming Shadowbolt exclusively. Debuff cap discussion aside, there are definitely ways to expand on the class fantasy of the Warlock in addition to addressing its singular issue. Something to also take into consideration for the future is that the Warlock talent trees went virtually untouched through the course of development through Burning Crusade. Also, similar to the Hunter, the Warlock’s demons are too vulnerable in raid settings with large amounts of AoE damage.

Changes to Baseline Spells:

Voidwalker's Torment now deals a very small amount of Shadow damage.
(Value still under discussion.)

New Abilities

New Ability: Mana Funnel
Rank 1: Level 40 | Transfers 18 mana from the caster to her pet every second.
Rank 2: Level 50 | Transfers 36 mana from the caster to her pet every second.

Talent Changes

Affliction

Improved Drain Life and Improved Drain Mana have been combined into one talent: Soul Siphon
Increases the Health drained by your Drain Life spell by 5/10% and causes 15/30% of the Mana drained by your Drain Mana spell to damage the opponent.

Demonology

Improved Enslave Demon reduced to 2 ranks (down from 5). Reduces the Attack Speed and Casting Speed penalty of your Enslave Demon spell by 10/20%, reduces the resist chance by 10/20%, and the casting time by .5/1 second.

Soul Link and Health Funnel will now work with enslaved demons.

Improved Healthstone, Improved Firestone, and Improved Spellstone have all been combined into one talent: Master Conjurer (Row 2). Increases the amount of Health restored by your Healthstone by 10/20% and increases the bonuses and effects of your Firestones and Spellstones by 15/30%.

Inferno cooldown reduced from 1 hour to 20 minutes and can now be cast indoors.

Fel Intellect has been reduced from 5 ranks down to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Mana of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound by 5/10/15%.

Fel Stamina has been reduced from 5 ranks down to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Health of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound by 5/10/15%.

Destruction:

Intensity (Row 4). Gives you a 70% chance to resist interruption caused by damage while casting or channeling any Destruction fire spell.

Pyroclasm (Row 5). Gives your Rain of Fire, Hellfire, Conflagrate, and Soul Fire spells a 25% chance to stun the target for 3 sec.



Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just straight up too powerful for the game. That being said, this just means that any change made to the class must down one of two things only: either optimize what doesn’t work but should for the class, or improve on suboptimal playstyles to allow for more options for the player. The changes proposed for the coming patch attempt to stick within those guidelines.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Thunderclap can now be used in Defensive Stance.

New Abilities

New Ability: Intervene | 10 Rage, 30 second cooldown | Requires Defensive Stance
Run at high speed towards a party member, intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them.
Note: Shares a cooldown with Intercept.

New Ability: Decisive Strike | 15 Rage | 2 Second Cast
Focus an attack equal to Slam (Rank 4) on an opponent. Can be cast while moving and will not suffer cast time pushback when taking damage.
Note: Credit to Wall (Video) of Wallcraft for his brilliant rework of Slam.
Note: The cast time of Decisive Strike is reduced by Improved Slam.

New Passive: Die by the Sword
Increases your chance to parry attacks by 20% while under the effect of Retaliation.

Talent Changes

Arms

Improved Thunder Clap (Row 2). Reduces the cost of your Thunder Clap ability by 1/2/4 rage points and increases the damage by 40/70/100%.

Polearm Specialization (Row 6) has been combined into Axe Specialization (Row 5) and renamed Poleaxe Specialization (Row 5).

New Talent: Improved Disciplines (Row 6). Reduces the cooldown of your Retaliation, Recklessness and Shield Wall abilities by 2/4/6 min.

Protection

Improved Shield Block has been reduced from 3 ranks down to 1 rank. Allows your Shield Block ability to block an additional attack and increases the duration by 1 second.

Based on the extend of the upcoming changes in Patch 1.15.2, I would think it seems like it needs a rename as this is pretty much a major update to TurtleWoW.

A patch or build is an update to the game files. Expansions (Patch X) are the most massive type of content patches, adding entire new continents, new playable races or classes, multiple zones, dozens of instances and other game features. Major patches (Patch X.Y) can include new instances, zones and features. Minor patches (Patch X.Y.Z) can also add new game features, instances and scenarios, but tend to focus on updates such as balance changes. Hotfixes are small, instant changes to the game, which are done server-side and require no download or server takedown (majority of the time).

To provide better communication with our players, we would like to inform our community about the various methods used to update World of Warcraft. The following are the four major methods of updating the game:

Content patch - The content patch introduces major additions and/or changes to the game, whether in terms of functionality, content, economy, social interaction, or combat. For example, we recently opened up the dungeon Maraudon, as well as adding the priest spell Prayer of Fortitude as part of the same content patch. Content patches require a maintenance period of several hours and are accompanied by a download and patch notes.

Hotfix - A hotfix is a change made to the game deemed critical enough that it cannot be held off until a regular content patch. Hotfixes require only a server-side change with no download and can be implemented with no downtime, or a short restart of the realms. Because there is no download component to a hotfix, there are no downloadable patch notes. Instead, we will announce hotfix information through the forums, the in-game message of the day, and in the Server Alert window on the login screen.

Minor patch - A minor patch is identical to a hotfix, with the exception that a minor patch requires a download and will be accompanied by patch notes.

Localization patch - The game is currently translated into three languages with plans to introduce more. While not often, there are times when we must make changes to text within the game to accommodate the various languages, and this takes the form of a localization patch. Localization patches, when they occur, take place across all language versions of the game and are accompanied by a download and patch notes. Oftentimes, bug fixes will also be included with a localization patch to better utilize the downtime. These bug fixes will be documented in the patch notes as well.

We hope that this information provides more insight to our players regarding the update process, and in the future, we will use this guideline in order to keep our players informed on the World of Warcraft update process.

Perhaps these changes would be better off called Build 1.16.0?

[Lahire]

It's clearly 1.16 material.

[Evillord]

NO. Palatanks need a taunt, that is perfectly true. But Palatanks need to be hit because BoSanc, Holy Shield, Ret aura, redoubt work on being hit. In that spirit, a seal which stun target prevents the paladin from being hit. That's a problem which was said before. Btw, Paladins don't "taunt" people, they bring people to the light. I think you could add something to the Improved Righteous Fury talent (pure tanking talent) :

Improved Righteous Fury (Row 3)
Increases the amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16/33/50% and gives your judgement spell a 33/66/100% chance to force the target to attack you when used under Righteous Fury effect.

I think you have made the greatest point against turtle's version of the taunt. For what you say is true, having to use a seal that has a chance of stunning a target, wouldn't pair up well with many of their other talents from the same tree, that need them to be hit to trigger. So it wouldn't fit well with the rest of their kit. While your idea, well it would save paladins talent points. Since most are more than likely going to take improved righteous fury anyway. While also allowing more flexible in terms of judgement/seal use, letting it work better with their current existing kit. Yeah I think your idea would be far better than the original. For it takes the same basic idea but makes it flow much better with the paladin's kit. While still making the taunt rather paladin favor by using things only a paladin can do.

Which should make the tanking experience much better for paladins. For sometimes there is that dps that targets a mob which is not marked skull and no one else beside them is attacking, leading to them quickly becoming an off tank. That or someone gets the mob on them and than starts jumping or running around away from the tank, making the tank have to chase after them can lead to a rough time of getting threat back due to spending more time chasing than building up threat or focus on keeping threat on the other mobs.

[Velite]

Seal of justice being counterintuitive to the judgement effect is nothing new. See seal of the crusader. You aren't supposed to camp seal of justice, it's a situational seal for dealing with trash mobs and pvp. You do camp seal of righteousness because that is where most of your threat is.

The problem with the concept you guys are pitching, is that if paladins under righteous fury would taunt every time they used a judgement, any judgement, there would be ZERO control as to when you were taunting, and you end up just spamming taunt on cooldown essentially. A taunt should be deliberate and controlled, not passive. Judging righteousness and wisdom is a core part of the regular tank rotation and having to click off righteous fury to avoid taunting off another tank while doing so would be clunky. That is why the taunt has to be on an ability that is used situationally like seal of justice.

[Reploidrocsa]

Seal of justice being counterintuitive to the judgement effect is nothing new. See seal of the crusader. You aren't supposed to camp seal of justice, it's a situational seal for dealing with trash mobs and pvp. You do camp seal of righteousness because that is where most of your threat is.

The problem with the concept you guys are pitching, is that if paladins under righteous fury would taunt every time they used a judgement, any judgement, there would be ZERO control as to when you were taunting, and you end up just spamming taunt on cooldown essentially. A taunt should be deliberate and controlled, not passive. Judging righteousness and wisdom is a core part of the regular tank rotation and having to click off righteous fury to avoid taunting off another tank while doing so would be clunky. That is why the taunt has to be on an ability that is used situationally like seal of justice.

This.
People don't see that seal of justice is not for using it while tanking, but meant to be used creatively in form of a taunt.

You apply judgement of wisdom, you attack with seal of righteousness and leave judgement off CD in case you need to Seal of justice+Judgement in order to have some makeshift taunt, don't you think?

[Rafale]

I will now give my thoughts on Priest's changes with the same "identity" point of view.

Holy Fire initial damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.75 -> 0.857)

YES. The spell was too weak even for an hybrid.

Divine Spirit (Row 5) is now baseline for all Priests starting at level 30.

YES and NO. Being able to buff Divine Spirit is part of the unique utility of a priest in heal-spec. If shadow are maxi buffed as other heal classes, there is a risk to not take any Hpriest because the shadow can buff Divine spirit.

Lightwell (Row 7) has been made baseline and is available for all Priests starting at level 40.

It is still shit. You guys need to rework this talent which has potential. Make it instant, make the heal not stopped by damage ?

New Passive: Improved Shadowform. Reduces the Mana cost of your Shadow spells by 15% while in Shadowform.

NO. I see, it is the follow of the -20% for moonkins. In pvp, it can be a problem. You +15% more durability to a class which is already known as a very OP dueler ? Moonkins and SP aren't at the same spot.

New Ability: Pain Spike | Learned at Level 60 | 15 Second Cooldown
Causes 225 Shadow damage instantly, but the damage caused will begin healing itself over 5 seconds after landing.

NO. Not fan of this ability. I don't imagine many uses. and SP need to stay a periodic dmg spec.

New Ability: Shadow Nova | Learned at Level 60 | 635 Mana Cost | 30 Second Cooldown
Causes an explosion of cursed shadow around the caster, causing 181 to 209 Shadow damage to all enemy targets within 8 yards. This effect causes increased threat.

Huge NO. Please don't give AOE to everyone or let's upgrade Turtle Wow to Shadowlands Turtle Wow.

Effects of Improved Vampiric Embrace have been rolled into the base ability.

YES but what is the downside ? Nothing ? We have a problem there.

Improved Vampiric Touch has been replaced by Vampiric Embrace: Vampiric Embrace also restores 2/5% of shadow spell damage you deal to the target as mana for your party.

NO. This is waaaaaaay too much. It completely changes all raids compositions. SP will be needed on any mana group. This is also a mechanic imported from BC? Are we going to have Shadow word Death too ? I mean... This isn't vanilla at all.

Holy Nova damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.107 -> 0.161)

YES. Scaling change, no new mechanic. Solid but not OP.

New Talent: Holy Champion (Row 7)
Allows you to choose another player as your holy champion, granting you several unique abilities:

Proclaim Champion | 250 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 2 Hour Cooldown
Proclaim the friendly target as your champion for 2 hrs. Increases armor by 230, all resistances by 10 and allows the use of various Champion spells on that target.
Note: Persists through death and continues its duration and cooldown countdowns while offline.
Note: Armor buff does not stack with Scroll of Protection IV

Champion’s Grace | 250 Mana Cost
Bestow the target Champion with grace, increasing all healing done by the priest by 10%. Lasts 2 hrs.

Champion’s Bond | 250 Mana Cost
Creates a bond between priest and Champion. When the priest takes damage up to 20 will be taken by the Champion instead. Lasts 10 min.

Empower Champion | 1100 Mana Cost
Empower the target Champion, increasing all healing and spell damage done by up to 25 and attack power by 30. Lasts 2 hrs.
Note: Does not stack effects with Greater Arcane Elixir or Juju Power/Elixir of Giants

Summon Champion | 1150 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 4 Hour Cooldown
Summon the priest's Champion from anywhere in the world.

Revive Champion | 81% Base Mana Cost | 2 Second Cast
Return the priest's Champion to life with 2500 health and 2600 mana.
Note: Cannot be cast in combat.

Huge NO. WTF did you guys smoke before imagining that ? It's far too much, impacting everyone and everything. Calm down guys.

New Talent: Reflective Shields (Row 5)
Causes 15% of the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield to reflect back at the attacker. This damage causes no threat.

YES and NO. I hate BC importation in Vanilla, because it's not BC. that said, it"s just a small portion of the BC talent, and doesn't affect spec identity.

[Severla]

Big NO. Bringing a new ability. . .
Don't bring retail things. . .

The spell existed during Vanilla planning, is still in the code, and worked the exact same way it does listed in this thread.

[Lahire]

Big NO. Bringing a new ability. . .
Don't bring retail things. . .

The spell existed during Vanilla planning, is still in the code, and worked the exact same way it does listed in this thread.

According to K. Jordan it was an alpha/beta placeholder to give pally testers "buttons to press" and was never intended to be in the finished product, so its existence in files isn't an argument all by itself to add it back. Need to ponder about its effects on the overall class and combat designs.

[Suwuxiv]

From what Laughadin tells me, JotC and CS won't stack. The purpose of CS is to give Retri Paladins a means of boosting their (and Prot Paladin's) DPS because the Judgement they will be using if these changes come to be is Wisdom and/or Light.

JotC will be better than CS still with talents and Libram of Fervor factored in the event they are allowed to Judge it instead.

So, will Crusader Strike be a wtf strong buff

bettercalltheGM'sitsbreakingpvpmeta

? No, not in the slightest.

[Lahire]

When I said "effects on the overall class and combat designs", I was not talking about "strong" or "weak", I was talking about the diversity, feel and flavour of the design. Overall player experience is in my eye far more important than raiding optimization. The practice of theorycrafting raid optimality is 1% of the overall game or player experience.

Strikes were not planned to be for paladin because they would make its gameplay warrior-like. The point was to distinguish War and Pala gameplay, not homogenize them. The more strikes are added, the more this distinction disappears. If the pala feels like the war to play, it's a decision contradictory with the integrity of the overall experience. I don't say this inclusion will suffise to make them feel identical, I say it's a step in this direction.

Imo, raid optimization should not be the compass for designing vanilla. Because there are a lot of other activities and if you make every class equally optimal for raiding, you impact their design for these other activities and lose their RP specificities on the way.

[Bell]

Im also against the changes. I started playing because I like it vanilla like not your wildest imagination like. Part of what ruined retail was bored pple crying for new this and that and everything else and it got so it then became a full time job to keep up with the changes and extra challenges and relearning your class etc. To sum it up ..if pple are bored play something else man. Im here for vanilla.

[Evillord]

Seal of justice being counterintuitive to the judgement effect is nothing new. See seal of the crusader. You aren't supposed to camp seal of justice, it's a situational seal for dealing with trash mobs and pvp. You do camp seal of righteousness because that is where most of your threat is.

The problem with the concept you guys are pitching, is that if paladins under righteous fury would taunt every time they used a judgement, any judgement, there would be ZERO control as to when you were taunting, and you end up just spamming taunt on cooldown essentially. A taunt should be deliberate and controlled, not passive. Judging righteousness and wisdom is a core part of the regular tank rotation and having to click off righteous fury to avoid taunting off another tank while doing so would be clunky. That is why the taunt has to be on an ability that is used situationally like seal of justice.

True true. fair counter point.

[Plagoy]

server still shutdown? i cant logging in

[Rafale]

When I said "effects on the overall class and combat designs", I was not talking about "strong" or "weak", I was talking about the diversity, feel and flavour of the design. Overall player experience is in my eye far more important than raiding optimization. The practice of theorycrafting raid optimality is 1% of the overall game or player experience.

Strikes were not planned to be for paladin because they would make its gameplay warrior-like. The point was to distinguish War and Pala gameplay, not homogenize them. The more strikes are added, the more this distinction disappears. If the pala feels like the war to play, it's a decision contradictory with the integrity of the overall experience. I don't say this inclusion will suffise to make them feel identical, I say it's a step in this direction.

Totally agree

Imo, raid optimization should not be the compass for designing vanilla. Because there are a lot of other activities and if you make every class equally optimal for raiding, you impact their design for these other activities and lose their RP specificities on the way.

It's possible to make adjustments. Some adjustments have an impact on raiding without impacting too much PVP, Levelling, etc.

Threat reduction/increase talents are good example of raiding adjustments.

[Rafale]

Big NO. Bringing a new ability. . .
Don't bring retail things. . .

The spell existed during Vanilla planning, is still in the code, and worked the exact same way it does listed in this thread.

Good point ! No scaling and so poor damage is still a big problem I think...

[Merikkinon]

It's clearly 1.16 material.

Agree. It's clearly not a patch, but a major overhaul.

1.16 it is indeed. Calling it 1.15.2 is actually a way to buffer the impact of how it is being received... by many.

Integrity.

[Mac]

According to K. Jordan it was an alpha/beta placeholder to give pally testers "buttons to press" and was never intended to be in the finished product, so its existence in files isn't an argument all by itself to add it back. Need to ponder about its effects on the overall class and combat designs.

One of the biggest complaints the paladin class received during vanilla was that it was boring to play, especially while leveling, and that they'd just afk during fights since it was all auto attack anyway due to a lack of interactivity or "buttons to press."

[Evillord]

One of the biggest complaints the paladin class received during vanilla was that it was boring to play, especially while leveling, and that they'd just afk during fights since it was all auto attack anyway due to a lack of interactivity or "buttons to press."

Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background. Which the general advice would be something like this, put x blessing on, cast your seal, judgement, put up another seal and than go watch netflix, unless it was some zone with big elites that love to run around. Since going with the idea the paladin was decently gear. Most of it will be auto attacking, to avoid going out of mana. For not much risk of anything bad happen, unless you were trying to take on a mob high above your level range or your gear was massively out dated.

With the most interact would be a paladin going down the aoe grinding route. Having to gather up enough mobs, keep a eye on your health and mana, knowing when to use one of your oh no buttons, to do stuff like bubble bandage. making sure you keep an eye on the mobs, have to watch out addition mobs joining in, which might lead to your doom and end up with pulling to many. Might need to focus down on a low health mob, to lower the damage you are tanking to ensure you remain standing once all mobs are dead. Which I don't think many when down this path, it took alot more things to get going and a certain talent build. Along with being rather costly in terms of gold, if you brought all the possible items like spell power potions, dragon breath chili and other things that could make it go faster or be even more effective. That and needed to know good spots for aoe grinding. Making the auto attack leveling, just way more simple and cheaper in terms of gold cost.

Of course the auto attack and go afk way of leveling up a paladin, has made some go paladins were unplayable before holy strike or still barely playable with holy strike. Hyperbolt of course, since they still work and were able to do the things they needed to do, just not the most interaction class when it comes to solo play for one on one. Since consecration if the paladin has it, is most likely not going to use a high mana cost spell against a single target mob. Exorcism is limited to who you can use it on, same for turn undead. That and oh no buttons, would only be used if you are in any threat of danger. Which is unlikely to happen in a one vs one, against normal mobs. Leading to paladins having a very limited kit. Making it easy to see why the advice of go afk and watch netflix is given. Than you throw in something like holy strike and it's easy to see why so many value it highly or even overhype it, it gives another choice, another reason to focus on the game and not just go afk.

[Mac]

Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background.

That reminds me of this old post.

[Evillord]

That reminds me of this old post.

Thank you for linking that. that made my day.

[Aeliren]

Even when blizzard released classic servers. Some of the advice given while leveling a paladin, was to have netflix or something on in the background.

That reminds me of this old post.

I knew what this was going to be before I even clicked on it.

A classic meme.

[Reploidrocsa]

Btw, will druids be able to learn to use polearms?

[Lahire]

Let's be honest, most player feedback is so hyperbolic its useless for a designer. For most players, each thing is either "burning trash" or "perfect", and the difference between those 2 categories can be as tenuous as a 1% efficiency.