Dear Turtle, Porting Stones - A Time To Reconsider

[Nokia4life2017]

Greetings Turtle ^^^

OK I've Had Enough. It is Time to Make it Fair. If We Have to Run to Every Dungeon, then we Need to Make everyone Else Run to BG's and Arena As Well.

The Pop is Hitting 600 Strong, and We Need to Face the Reality that it is Indeed Crossfaction and that We Need to Help this Growing Pop to Form Groups.
We Also Know that the Coding Effort Required Would be Minimal.

From a Historical Perspective, We Also Know that "Summon Stones" were Already a "Feature" in Vanilla and Was just not Released in Conjuction with Naxx as it wasn't Proofed in Time, Specifically the BRD and UBRS portions of the Code, but the rest was indeed feature-complete. So Summon-Stones was Indeed "Canon" for Vanilla. As were the Concepts of Porting.

If there Are Some Holdouts that would Like to Nay-Say this Post, then we can Have a Simple Vote Perhaps. It is in my Humble Opninion that it Is Time We Reconsider this Option with an Open Mind. Thank You.

Draguli ^^^

[Nokia4life2017]

If you need some Inspiration of a Vanilla project that has Portng Stones, then Elysium has an implementation and may even be willing to donate their Code ^^^

[Toirto]

In the past you would just have one of your teammates queue to a battleground to queue from anywhere on the map so this is not really unfair it was always this way.

[Toirto]

Or I guess it was always unfair then or something.

[Lahire]

Running to the place you need to go is part of the core world design of a classic MMORPG. It makes the world feel big, dangerous and lived in. Teleportations are one of the bane which transformed the genre to something else entirely. In modern MMO, the world is nothing more than a glorified menu screen to launch instances and teleports.
So, really bad idea to put teleports. The less there are, the better.

[Leozan]

The only compromise I can see is to increase the required players needed to summon from 2 to 3. If the majority of the group makes the long trek to the dungeon I’d say immersion isn’t completely lost.

Obviously what we don’t want is what happened in wrath onward with rdf teleports. Too much convenience will certainly poison any game.

[Paw]

Greetings Turtle ^^^

OK I've Had Enough. It is Time to Make it Fair. If We Have to Run to Every Dungeon, then we Need to Make everyone Else Run to BG's and Arena As Well.

The Pop is Hitting 600 Strong, and We Need to Face the Reality that it is Indeed Crossfaction and that We Need to Help this Growing Pop to Form Groups.
We Also Know that the Coding Effort Required Would be Minimal.

From a Historical Perspective, We Also Know that "Summon Stones" were Already a "Feature" in Vanilla and Was just not Released in Conjuction with Naxx as it wasn't Proofed in Time, Specifically the BRD and UBRS portions of the Code, but the rest was indeed feature-complete. So Summon-Stones was Indeed "Canon" for Vanilla. As were the Concepts of Porting.

If there Are Some Holdouts that would Like to Nay-Say this Post, then we can Have a Simple Vote Perhaps. It is in my Humble Opninion that it Is Time We Reconsider this Option with an Open Mind. Thank You.

Draguli ^^^

Hello Draguli/Nokia4life2017 (awesome choice of name! :D)!

I came to understand that you are suffering from "pain of slow" [new spell <introduced by me for the sake of this argument> that puts Einstein's relativity theory into practice; making the bearer of the curse feel like as if time slowed down in the universe even though it hasn't as they are pressing W on keyboard and navigating by clicking occasionally the right side of their mouse (the object not the animal, if given person has both in their repertoire, careful not to mix up the two it can cause malfunctions if done). However such spell would require insane amount mana that most of our playerbase lacks if not all according to Chromie. Effect you are experiencing I would say being not a doctor in any regards, nor shaman or priest is the aftereffect of sweets consumption or/and similar more or less potent conjunctions. This spell reads: Bearer gains the debuff: Sugar RUSH! that lasts until they form a dungeon group. Then it changes and becomes buff: SUPERHERO! which is but cosmetix without any boost, having a similar effect on them like the pill that Morpheus gave to Neo in the matrix.] being in the midsts of many turtles as a rabbit I can relate to it. Alas ever since I lost that race to Tooga I heartfeltly accept the pace that they choose. And being the wise beings they are:

I'd say its safe to say that whatever they do is cool.

To give a straight answer: Our dev team hav deir hends full rn. Things such like need to be talked over with our populace in length. It changes occasionally for the better or the worse but really it doesnt effect the gameplay much nor the morale. Hang tight! Drink tea and join our discord server:

https://discord.gg/MDW9sxdK2s

We hav a new chat der as of today, #creative-corner. You might just find urself cosy there if you give it a shot
Also we have writers here, musicians, some people draw viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1695 as well... and I can go on but Celine Dion and Titanic.
Not sure if ur new or like an old fox visiting but enjoy ur stay!

[Lichenwitch]

Running to the place you need to go is part of the core world design of a classic MMORPG. It makes the world feel big, dangerous and lived in. Teleportations are one of the bane which transformed the genre to something else entirely. In modern MMO, the world is nothing more than a glorified menu screen to launch instances and teleports.
So, really bad idea to put teleports. The less there are, the better.

Yup this.
All that needs to be said really.
In an MMO sometimes convenience really just means you are playing the game less and the world gets less alive for both you and everyone around you.

[Karmax]

My first thought:

Hey, not a bad idea - meeting stones that are actually useful would be nice, especially since there always seem to be 1-2 people lagging behind making the others wait.
Just make it so that it takes at least 3 people to summon (that way the majority of group members still has to travel to the dungeon).


On second thought, though:

People would most likely exploit this system (like they always do).
The first guy who gets to the meeting stone would simply ask people nearby or from other dungeon groups to help him summon the rest of his party one by one.
It would also encourage laziness (let the others go ahead - they will summon me anyways).

All things considered I'd rather stick with the current inconvenient system.

[Tarluk]

My first thought:

Hey, not a bad idea - meeting stones that are actually useful would be nice, especially since there always seem to be 1-2 people lagging behind making the others wait.
Just make it so that it takes at least 3 people to summon (that way the majority of group members still has to travel to the dungeon).


On second thought, though:

People would most likely exploit this system (like they always do).
The first guy who gets to the meeting stone would simply ask people nearby or from other dungeon groups to help him summon the rest of his party one by one.
It would also encourage laziness (let the others go ahead - they will summon me anyways).

All things considered I'd rather stick with the current inconvenient system.

Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't mind having them in with the 3-person requirement, but the devs have shown strong opposition against the idea and I can't blame them. As much as it'd be convenient and give Meeting Stones a proper purpose, it'd also allow people to just try and be lazy.

And a lot of us have been around Draguli long enough that we know he just wants summoning stones so that he can be lazy...

[Lichenwitch]

plus, on a selfish note, lack of summons and teleports accessible for all in the game makes warlocks (and mages!) much cooler.

[Markuis]

I think we could think of the middle ground being making it easier to reach certain dungeons for the other faction. Going to the DM is really hard for hordies, for example. Maybe add a way go get closer without directly teleporting them to the entrance. Something like a boat that gets you to the lighthouse on the southwest of Westfall. The only time i did that dungeon, someone got the zepelin to Grom'gol and jumped to the water, then spent some minutes swimming. I don't know about you, but it feels really anticlimatic.

[Paw]

There is one thing. This drink at the SW Innkeep that ports you to Arathi if you get drunk from it! DM is easy, Grom'gol's a walk north, avoid Stiches! I missed like 3 years so I don't have up to date info on any other similar consumables but the porting stones to capitals are there which is serious time saver anyhow you look at it. Then the Gurabashi port. I think there is an RP port hub as well. You can ride a gryphon from Goldshire any time you want which is insanely entertaining!

Don't know. Anything else really just not meeting stones. Okay, if 4 people gather then they can summon 1 person? but why not just make guilds and put the ones who don't like to walk set up with a warlock in the group?

[Lichenwitch]

There is one thing. This drink at the SW Innkeep that ports you to Arathi if you get drunk from it! DM is easy, Grom'gol's a walk north, avoid Stiches! I missed like 3 years so I don't have up to date info on any other similar consumables but the porting stones to capitals are there which is serious time saver anyhow you look at it. Then the Gurabashi port. I think there is an RP port hub as well. You can ride a gryphon from Goldshire any time you want which is insanely entertaining!

Don't know. Anything else really just not meeting stones. Okay, if 4 people gather then they can summon 1 person? but why not just make guilds and put the ones who don't like to walk set up with a warlock in the group?

yes the thing is the game already has a solution for this in the form of warlocks if you don't have a warlock to summon you, it's on you as the player to get some cooler friends.

[Merikkinon]

Yep. They have said no on more ports. Many reasons.

[Markuis]

You can ride a gryphon from Goldshire any time you want which is insanely entertaining!

Until you fly over SW then fall through a building under the map (that typical bug in many games) and die

[Paw]

You can ride a gryphon from Goldshire any time you want which is insanely entertaining!

Until you fly over SW then fall through a building under the map (that typical bug in many games) and die

:P

[Merikkinon]

You can ride a gryphon from Goldshire any time you want which is insanely entertaining!

Until you fly over SW then fall through a building under the map (that typical bug in many games) and die

That's how we enter the new dungeon!!

[Tarluk]

I think we could think of the middle ground being making it easier to reach certain dungeons for the other faction. Going to the DM is really hard for hordies, for example. Maybe add a way go get closer without directly teleporting them to the entrance. Something like a boat that gets you to the lighthouse on the southwest of Westfall. The only time i did that dungeon, someone got the zepelin to Grom'gol and jumped to the water, then spent some minutes swimming. I don't know about you, but it feels really anticlimatic.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. Horde already have something like that for Gnomeregan, so I think something similar for Deadmines could be nice. Perhaps Horde could get a quest from Ratchet to take care of Sneed or Captain Greenskin, and a rowboat just off the coast of Grom'gol would teleport them to the Westfall Lighthouse, like you mentioned. Maybe Pyrewood Village, Amberhill or Dalaran could have a flight path for Alliance for easier access of repeat runs of Shadowfang Keep or Scarlet Monastery.

There is one teleport that I think is honestly far too convenient, and that is the Thousand Needles teleport in Stormwind and Orgrimmar. It's so fast that it makes the boats at Menethil Harbor kind of irrelevant. Personally, I'd maybe replace it with a boat to Steamwheedle Port going between it and perhaps a new port on the Eastern Kingdoms, though since I do get that the teleport is designed to be a way to allow players to try out the whole Mirage Raceway mechanic that this server has, at the very least move the flying machines to Ironforge or Thunder Bluff. The flying machines could even be located in the Military Ward where flying machines are constantly taking off, or in the Hunter Rise with a flying machine tower ready for takeoff.

[Hardwelsam]

I'm think enough about this.
And I will greatly appreciate any changes of the ss / the df .
Okay we'll all know how classic works.
And one of the biggest suffering in the game for me still is :
If u wanna port in the dungeon after u got a group
(and now I'm looking at everyone)
U have to be walk the right maps locations to get the job done.
After u walk a hour just be caus u want enter the dungeon,and u done it,after all the pain I just starting.
What if when u got a no brain ppl ?
I just always getting those ppl and ty having enough at them forever.
U walk a 30 min/ hour just get a player(s) to achieve for yourself :
Yes, u finally in the right map right location,yes u also got players to clean the dungeon!
(and now can talk about the waste of time what u killed inside the game just to have acces to port the dungeon)
After all,Bilbo happy,Gandalf is happy ,sauron is also happy,everyone likes it.
U are in the dungeon right side with u the players..
U stand in the dungeon with happines:
"finally,I've made it!"

And tank start charge.
Healer is afk,mommy calls the duty..
Dps porting out,spamming the
Channel,idiots,graveyard maded for yall.

Or just talk about new players.
Yes,bunch of them still remains,who's news in the game,in wow.
(looking on the tanks.yes.u)

I know well this mechanism is part of the game.
but is a very very old mechanism.
I have skill,after all how much time I got ppl in writes down.
Just like that.

This thing need to be changed.

[Gheor]

No, the whole point is to have less teleporters in the game, not to fill it with them.

The argument of it takes too long and some of the group members have to leave is satirical.

This is a WORLD and I'd like to stay that way, if you want to be ported ask a mage, or grab a warlock.

[Karmax]

No, the whole point is to have less teleporters in the game, not to fill it with them.

I agree - yet we have stuff like Wormhole Generator and Gurubashi Arena Port...

[Hardwelsam]

Alright.
I'm agreed any type of change.
I'm just hopeless to getting less newbie toxic playerbase.
If that even possible
In wow.

[Lahire]

No, the whole point is to have less teleporters in the game, not to fill it with them.

I agree - yet we have stuff like Wormhole Generator and Gurubashi Arena Port...

You are right: to solve this contradiction, they should be removed from the game.

[Gheor]

You will see how we deal with those soon enough.

[Lichenwitch]

You will see how we deal with those soon enough.

[Merikkinon]

You will see how we deal with those soon enough.

NO JOKE !?!?!

[Merikkinon]

No, the whole point is to have less teleporters in the game, not to fill it with them.

The argument of it takes too long and some of the group members have to leave is satirical.

This is a WORLD and I'd like to stay that way, if you want to be ported ask a mage, or grab a warlock.

Yeah, agreed. I hate to say it, I have gotten used to having the stone and wormhole. But one of the negatives of Blizzard caving to the instant gratification crowd ("I"m not instant gratification, I just don't want to spend time traveling" - well, in a world that has that as an aspect, getting zapped somewhere IS an act of instant gratification).... anyhow, one of the negatives was that it started to throttle the unique abilities of other players. Players became less important. Instead of some level of specialization (hello those of you who took sociology), the world goes backward because everyone can start to do the same things and has little need for others ("Oh, I actually do need you -- to tank so I can get my gear.".. PFFFFFTTT)

An adjustment, but it's Vanilla.

[Vaporizer7]

I dream of tp Stone in vanilla. It would save us so much time ! You keep the rpg advenutre aspect since it required 3 persons and you avoid all this time lost waiting the 4th or 5th member who had a setback.
Save us time

[Sinrek]

Each extra teleportation makes WORLD even smaller even though it's already scaled down at least 3 times from what it is supposed to be lore-wise.

Personally, I'd like to see even Hearthstone removed and respawn of mobs in instances increased by 3 times. This way there would be much more sense for players to actually clear those entirely and run those multiple times increasing those rare drops chances.

[Lahire]

I dream of tp Stone in vanilla. It would save us so much time ! You keep the rpg advenutre aspect since it required 3 persons and you avoid all this time lost waiting the 4th or 5th member who had a setback.
Save us time

At the cost of the integrity of the vanilla design.
I value far more the integrity of the design than some minutes saved.
The wait time is incidentally a good thing : it often gives you time to chat with your group, make friends, evaluate your partners (this one is the funny guy, this one is the shy guy, etc). Wait time is actually a social time. In a MMO, waiting is gameplay, because social is one of the three core pillars of vanilla design.
When you bastardize it, you obtain the degenerate "go-go-go" culture of retail wow (always running, not even "hi", speedrun and quit).

According to original designer, vanilla design has 3 pillars : world, social and character progression.
Easy TP sabotages 2 of the 3 pillars.

[Merikkinon]

Each extra teleportation makes WORLD even smaller even though it's already scaled down at least 3 times from what it is supposed to be lore-wise.

Personally, I'd like to see even Hearthstone removed and respawn of mobs in instances increased by 3 times. This way there would be much more sense for players to actually clear those entirely and run those multiple times increasing those rare drops chances.

Truthfully, you'd experience a severe dropoff to the most dedicated, hardcore players and people who must be independently wealthy (or somehow mooching the hell out of some system).

The issue with TP stones is, they make me more committed to sticking with it for a dungeon. I had to get there, maybe a flight, but definitely a run and walk into, say, WC. "I wanna stick this out. I hope you will, too."

Make things super-easy and people just act worse. We have several WoW expansions that demonstrate that.

OTOH, going super-restrictive or hardcore can make people say, "Nah". Because you *have* to put in a greater reward for such time investment. And few people have that tenacity and financial situation to do that.

[Merikkinon]

I dream of tp Stone in vanilla. It would save us so much time ! You keep the rpg advenutre aspect since it required 3 persons and you avoid all this time lost waiting the 4th or 5th member who had a setback.
Save us time

At the cost of the integrity of the vanilla design.
I value far more the integrity of the design than some minutes saved.
The wait time is incidentally a good thing : it often gives you time to chat with your group, make friends, evaluate your partners (this one is the funny guy, this one is the shy guy, etc). Wait time is actually a social time. In a MMO, waiting is gameplay, because social is one of the three core pillars of vanilla design.
When you bastardize it, you obtain the degenerate "go-go-go" culture of retail wow (always running, not even "hi", speedrun and quit).

According to original designer, vanilla design has 3 pillars : world, social and character progression.
Easy TP sabotages 2 of the 3 pillars.

Just an awesome post, Lahire. The real gem of WoW was the social engagement. It fell off precipitously in favor of other 'rewards'.

Of course humans don't understand what they took for granted until it is gone!

[Sinrek]

Each extra teleportation makes WORLD even smaller even though it's already scaled down at least 3 times from what it is supposed to be lore-wise.

Personally, I'd like to see even Hearthstone removed and respawn of mobs in instances increased by 3 times. This way there would be much more sense for players to actually clear those entirely and run those multiple times increasing those rare drops chances.

OTOH, going super-restrictive or hardcore can make people say, "Nah". Because you *have* to put in a greater reward for such time investment. And few people have that tenacity and financial situation to do that.

17 minutes of simple running. Even less if you have FP.

Financial situation? Wat?

[Markuis]

I dream of tp Stone in vanilla. It would save us so much time ! You keep the rpg advenutre aspect since it required 3 persons and you avoid all this time lost waiting the 4th or 5th member who had a setback.
Save us time

At the cost of the integrity of the vanilla design.
I value far more the integrity of the design than some minutes saved.
The wait time is incidentally a good thing : it often gives you time to chat with your group, make friends, evaluate your partners (this one is the funny guy, this one is the shy guy, etc). Wait time is actually a social time. In a MMO, waiting is gameplay, because social is one of the three core pillars of vanilla design.
When you bastardize it, you obtain the degenerate "go-go-go" culture of retail wow (always running, not even "hi", speedrun and quit).

According to original designer, vanilla design has 3 pillars : world, social and character progression.
Easy TP sabotages 2 of the 3 pillars.

Gameplay should attempt to be fun. Waiting is gameplay? I don't know, but it doesn't sound fun at all. I would combine the 4 people-stone with allowing it only if the 5th player that is summoned has been at that stone at least once, or something like that. Or, you know, add some lorefriendly gateways that makes it a bit easier.

Waiting may be gameplay, but doing so for 30 minutes is boring.