How to Go Forward in Rebalancing (Poll)

[Dragunovi]

Hello there, item designer Dragunovi here. The question of how to go about in the item rebalancing has been quite a hot topic in our discord for a long time now, and I believe it's finally time to ask the playerbase on their opinions and suggestions on this matter.

There are several options for this as you can see in the poll options. This doesn't mean that these balance changes will happen immediately, but it is likely that they will happen with the release of version 1.15.2 (If they are accepted), you will be alerted ahead of time of course.
Also most nerfing balance changes will not directly weaken items, just distribute offensive stats into defensive stats like Stamina in most cases, to widen the gap an item have with its closest upgrade as to make that upgrade more meaningful and earned, making item progression overall more enjoyable I'll explain them for better understanding.

1. Don't change anything.
Even if I'm not a fan of this option it should be listed. It's basically leaving everything in their first iteration aside from very severe/emergency broken item balance issues.

2. Only buff underwhelming custom items.
This would serve to bring custom items weaker than their counterparts up to speed with similiar items.

3. Fully rebalance custom items.
This means custom items can be buffed, nerfed and totally reworked if needed to preserve the item balance, all within reason of course.

4. Fully rebalance custom items, and buff forgotten Vanilla items.
This is basically option three and an interesting extra on top. This would mean items that were made before Blizzard's item philosophy wasn't quite evolved to be brought up to around the same level current item design is, this would primarily apply to profession items like Mooncloth Robe and Timbermaw recipe items like Heavy Timbermaw Boots. Even if these ideas might sound cool to some, others might not like Vanilla items being tampered with so I seperated this from Option 3.

Make sure to leave your thoughts and possible ideas as comments in this thread!

[Soulex23]

It'd be interesting to see what gets rebalanced, and if there's any sort of ideas you guys have for specs that have underwhelming gear at endgame (sv hunter, feral DPS druid, etc.).

I will admit I'm not one of the ones who has hard memory of anything beyond lvl 40, aside from very vague memories of my dad playing when I was 5 or so.

[Jombo]

I really would love to see some rebalancing. There are so many completely useless and laughable blue items in vanilla that it would be a shame not to fix them at least to a decent level.

[Toirto]

I feel very happy we are mostly agreeing on option 4

I always believed that this was nessecary at some point.

[Qixel]

The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.

[Tamamo-no-Bae]

The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.

I 100% agree with this

[Sonpansatan]

Out of all the reasons that people enjoy vanilla WoW, I don't think "Spirit on Warrior Gear" is one of them.

[Stenerjoe2]

I actually dont think there's enough cloth gear with strenght on.



Option 4 pls.

[Velite]

I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.



https://classicdb.ch/?item=16860-0

OLD PALADIN TIER 1 GLOVES WAS A TANKING ITEM!!!!!! Then it was abandoned by blizzard, just like the spec, and became a healing item !

[Suwuxiv]

I voted Only buff underwhelming custom items because I believe nerfing good items people spent time farming from custom content would just be a disservice to them.

Vanilla was never about being overly balanced. In fact, what makes it good (and stand out from future iterations of WoW) is it's actually rather broken. But all in a fun way.

[Aydea]

From what I have seen so far of the server, you people understand the game for the artwork and cultural artifact of its time that it is. I can see it in every bit of the custom content that was created by you people. But not just that, you people also seem to understand what the game tries to be, what it tries to do, and how it tries to make people -feel-. This kind of deep understanding of an artisan working on an artwork, knowing what they do and understanding their work and the artwork, is what I can see everywhere in all of the custom content that was developed and added to the game.

And with it, I can also see an enormous amount of .. love. A builder's and artisan's love. For something that is already beautiful but could be so much more so. And you people don't just have this artisan's wish to make that happen, you also know to do it and very skillfully at that.

In the two month's have been here now I have been in a state of nearly constant awe asking myself in my mind "how can this be? How can something like this exist in today's world?" The answer is think-ably simple. Because enough people -wish- it and build it and bring into existence.

This server is an oasis in terms of things that you won't find easily in what has become and continues to become of the current world we live in. And it shows, as you can see that this server has drawn a community of people who feel drawn to such things.

Therefore, I am confident that the server's item balance is in good and capable hands with you people and personally I believe you will do a truly phenomenal job at it.

Thank you

[Adrenalize74]

Biggest things that needs to be rebalanced is Hunters quiver slot and Warlock soul shards.

2 things that have always really annoyed me is how a Hunter has to give up an entire bag slot for arrows! And why arent soul shards stackable? Completely ridiculous of Blizz to do that.

My $0.02

[Tarluk]

I'd especially love to see profession items get rebalanced so that they can feel a lot more viable while leveling up and at endgame, so that axesmiths aren't the only blacksmiths with viable endgame stuff.

Maybe some of the leveling blues and especially epics you get from world drops could be improved to be better while leveling, such as maybe the Guardian Blade having a bit more armor and DPS to make it actually desirable amongst many of the blue 2Hders you can get at the same level, or Black Duskwood Staff also triggering on spell hit in addition to melee hits?

Hell, maybe there could be new rare mobs added that have a higher chance to drop a certain blue or even epic at a higher chance than the incredibly low world drop chance. Maybe Silverpine Forest could have a fallen knight wielding the Guardian Blade, and they'd have a 10-20% chance to drop it as an item. An evil warlock or necromancer in Duskwood could hold the Black Duskwood Staff and have a similar droprate.

[Reman]

The game should be fun. I won't claim to speak for everyone, but I played Vanilla 16 years ago. Classic is available on official servers, and there are countless "authentic" private servers. There is no shortage of options if you desire "the real thing". Turtle should embrace change.

Well said, I fully agree.

[Tarluk]

I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.

To expand on this a little more, I think many of the tier sets in general could use some reitemization.

Tier 0 is kinda shocking at just how inadequate it is for a lot of classes, I think it should keep its more flexible nature to have it be passable no matter what spec you play but it definitely needs a buff. Hell, maybe Tier 0.5 could be a little bit buffed as well for how hard it is to get that set in comparison to raid gear.

Tier 1 could also be fairly flexible, decent for any spec, though leaning slightly more toward one spec. For Paladins, it could be toward Prot and for Shamans, it could be toward Enhance, as both of these specs naturally need the largest array of stats out of all the specs.

Tier 2 and 2.5 could specialize more specifically for 2 different specs, for instance Tier 2 Paladin could be for both Holy and Ret (and in extension Shockadin and Spell-Rets), Tier 2 Shaman could be for Resto but especially Elemental, Tier 2.5 Paladin could be for both Prot and Ret, and Tier 2.5 Shaman could be for Elemental/Enhance (great for Elemental Devastation builds).

Tier 3 could specialize into just one spec as it currently does now, with Tier 3 Paladin being for Holy and Tier 3 Shaman being for Resto.

Let me know what you think of that idea.

[Bayanni]

Lionhorn needs to be an actual decision to disenchant rather than the 100% worst item ever made

[Velite]

Lionhorn needs to be an actual decision to disenchant rather than the 100% worst item ever made

Lion horn of stormwind would actually be a good item, and appropriately strong as a world epic, if instead of offering 250 armor for 5 party members when the person is hit, it offers 1000-1250 armor for the person hit. Conceptually it is the "tank trinket" world epic, and in a group setting, only the tanks would be getting hit by physical damage, so similar to devotion aura the benefit only applies to tanks, which makes having to divide the armor by the party members from a design perspective cause it to be a poor item.

There are just many items that don't stand out or are considered useless because new content patches during retail vanilla invalidated them, and it's those items I hope the developers look over, as many of these items are crafted recipes or rare drops, necks with int spirit and 0 spellpower (like the world epic necklace). The worst offenders being items which are not only superior in terms of stats, but also in terms of availability and commonality.


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item
quality
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|----------------rarity-----------------------> well designed itemization generally follows this scale


Classic example Robes of the Exalted vs Mooncloth Vest. 5 int 11 spirit 68 healing vs 12 stam 20 int 19 spirit. Robes requires running stratholme undead, while it is among the more challenging of the 5 mans, can be done in a 10 man group on this server and with good compisition isn't all that challenging. Mooncloth vest requires 4 Mooncloth, which either requires gold to pay for, or almost a week of waiting on cooldowns.

I don't expect mooncloth vest to be superior to robes of the exalted, but for the amount of investment required (considering the recipe itself is a world drop), I would at least expect mooncloth vest to be superior to dreamweave vest, which has 9 int 14 spirit and 18 damage and healing, and requires not even 10% of the material cost. If I were to rebalance the item, I'd give mooncloth vest the same stats but +48 healing. The issue at hand here, that the vest was created prior to the robes and was made in an era of the game (release) when much of the items was just pure stats and not spell power or healing. It never received any updates and is hardly crafted or used ever.

[Lichenwitch]

From what I have seen so far of the server, you people understand the game for the artwork and cultural artifact of its time that it is. I can see it in every bit of the custom content that was created by you people. But not just that, you people also seem to understand what the game tries to be, what it tries to do, and how it tries to make people -feel-. This kind of deep understanding of an artisan working on an artwork, knowing what they do and understanding their work and the artwork, is what I can see everywhere in all of the custom content that was developed and added to the game.

And with it, I can also see an enormous amount of .. love. A builder's and artisan's love. For something that is already beautiful but could be so much more so. And you people don't just have this artisan's wish to make that happen, you also know to do it and very skillfully at that.

In the two month's have been here now I have been in a state of nearly constant awe asking myself in my mind "how can this be? How can something like this exist in today's world?" The answer is think-ably simple. Because enough people -wish- it and build it and bring into existence.

This server is an oasis in terms of things that you won't find easily in what has become and continues to become of the current world we live in. And it shows, as you can see that this server has drawn a community of people who feel drawn to such things.

Therefore, I am confident that the server's item balance is in good and capable hands with you people and personally I believe you will do a truly phenomenal job at it.

Thank you

i just want to second this beautifully well-worded post.

[Beertaster]

This is a Classic+ server and the + should be embraced. The server will thrive on changes. I've heard people complain over new spells added before, but new stuff is the selling point.

Adding to one class will inevitably bring "mains" from other classes complaining that their favs arnt getting attention or have raid/pvp threaghtened. Its inevitable and I hope the devs pay them no mind and just make cool stuff.

Because Iccant resist adding suggestions

Some cool low end leveling weapons would be nice. Crescent staff and staff of westfall are the 2 best dps weapons in their range and are on all warrior leveling guides. It's not very rp for warriors to run caster staffs. So why not add a neat two hand weapon alternative? Most the server would end up useing it on an alt, and if there's a fun effect on it then all the better.

[Momo]

Changes are fine with me, as long as they do not make the item considerably worse. Imagine wearing an item and later finding out that it was nerfed and you should have rolled for the other item months ago that is now better than the one you have. If there are any nerfs it would be best decision to release v2 of that item, and leave original untouched for those who have it already.

[Dragunovi]

Another question for you guys, if you think tier sets should be reitemized how do you think the process can go to not ruin it for their previous users too?

[Suwuxiv]

I'd also like to make mention that I don't think it's really fair to tack on the "and buff forgotten Vanilla items" to one option over the others.

The poll votes between options 1,2,3 are equal. Option four is option three bundled with a thick layer of sugarcoating and seems to be the favored pick.

The majority of the discussion in this thread is about the sugarcoating, too. Rather than actually rebalancing custom items, which I believe is the true subject matter at hand here. So it kind of does make me wonder what people really voted for...

[Jimmicz]

I'd love to see paladin tier 1 and tier 2 done properly, blizzard retroactively turned them from tanking/healing/dps sets to strictly only Healing sets, but due to the stat alignment and further updates like Dire maul they are strictly worse than dungeon gear and worse than offpiece raiding drops, same with the set bonuses they are garbage. Instead i'd love to see tier 1 and tier 2 become a retribution/protection set, so that they are at least not disenchant/pvp gear only, like other classes' tier sets.

To expand on this a little more, I think many of the tier sets in general could use some reitemization.

Tier 0 is kinda shocking at just how inadequate it is for a lot of classes, I think it should keep its more flexible nature to have it be passable no matter what spec you play but it definitely needs a buff. Hell, maybe Tier 0.5 could be a little bit buffed as well for how hard it is to get that set in comparison to raid gear.

Tier 1 could also be fairly flexible, decent for any spec, though leaning slightly more toward one spec. For Paladins, it could be toward Prot and for Shamans, it could be toward Enhance, as both of these specs naturally need the largest array of stats out of all the specs.

Tier 2 and 2.5 could specialize more specifically for 2 different specs, for instance, Tier 2 Paladin could be for both Holy and Ret (and in extension Shockadin and Spell-Rets), Tier 2 Shaman could be for Resto but especially Elemental, Tier 2.5 Paladin could be for both Prot and Ret, and Tier 2.5 Shaman could be for Elemental/Enhance (great for Elemental Devastation builds).

Tier 3 could specialize into just one spec as it currently does now, with Tier 3 Paladin being for Holy and Tier 3 Shaman being for Resto.

Let me know what you think of that idea.

He's talking about CUSTOM items rebalance, nobody mentioned tier set balance ;) , but I do get your point being able to pick from a set that matches your spec (similar to TBC) might improve the "meme" specks like boomkin, etc.

[Balake]

Another question for you guys, if you think tier sets should be reitemized how do you think the process can go to not ruin it for their previous users too?

Hybrid specs could have a set for each of their specs like in TBC, and the bosses drop tokens instead. Or they still drop the original item but you can swap it for another spec's with a quest.

[Dragunovi]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

[Dandaman]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

[Gheor]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

There is, for Horde.
Custom item, Two Handed Mace skills.

[Velite]

He's talking about CUSTOM items rebalance, nobody mentioned tier set balance ;) , but I do get your point being able to pick from a set that matches your spec (similar to TBC) might improve the "meme" specks like boomkin, etc.

The fourth option listed rebalancing custom and non-custom vanilla items as well, that's whats being discussed.

I am assuming that the hybrid tier sets fall under the forgotten items category, which for anyone who raids in vanilla as a paladin or druid, you are never going to mc to upgrade to tier 1, and for paladins tier 2 even, you skip over these sets because 5 man gear is better. This only applies to these classes, though the priest tier 1 is also underwhelming, the shaman tier 1 has nice set bonuses and alot of mp5. So since these tier sets (paladin druid priest) which are very mediocre are forgotten they could be updated to at least work for a different spec, they are trying too hard to be hybrid sets and thus nobody uses them. It is only applicable to these 3 classes, since all of the other classes' tier 1 is by and large an upgrade over 5 man gear.

[Velite]

I voted rebalance, and I feel very strongly about two things: underwhelming sets for builds that don't get much support, and weapon skill. Of those, I think weapon skill has one of the biggest impacts on the way the game is played for melee, in a negative way. Having more non-weapon items that give skill would open up a lot more flexibility especially to races without skill. There are only 5 armor pieces in the game that give one-handed skill; of those, only edgemaster's and ACLG are particularly useful, and they are underwhelming... not to mention there are no armor items at all that give mace skill.

There is, for Horde.
Custom item, Two Handed Mace skills.

He means one-handed mace skill which he is correct there is no armor item for that, only the mace from aq40 and zg which take up a weapon slot. It's human/goblin or bust.

[Tarluk]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

I think the cons of the token system are, at the very least, worth considering.

1) You won't be able to equip tier pieces in the raid when you get them anymore, and it doesn't really feel as special to get a token as it does to just get the item directly from the boss.

2) I think that the tier sets in TBC don't quite have quite as strong an identity to them as in Vanilla, because for many classes in TBC, the tier sets had to be split into 2 or even 3 different versions; so for Shamans, Tier 4 was basically just "this totem does a tiny bit more" and "this keystone talent does a tiny bit more". Tier 5, a set that looked like it was made of molten lava, make your...Lesser Healing Wave better (not just on Resto, on all 3 specs btw) and gave you a tiny bit more mana/attack speed/casting speed on a certain proc. The Vanilla tier sets weren't perfect by any means, but they did at least feel more cohesive in their theming. The Tier 2 "Ten Storms" set had a cool feature that made heals apply a Lightning Shield charge onto your targets; if that was coupled with the Tier 3 bonus which made your Lightning Shield give mp5 when it was up or was generally a lot better for the Lightning Bolt-throwing Elemental shamans, it would've been amazingly cool.

3) A minor thing, but something that's always been silly and weird to me is that the vendors have the gear right on them, they could just give it to you to help you save the world and all that, but instead they withhold the gear from you in exchange for these illusive tokens or badges. I get that maybe they'd use the tokens as a basis to help craft the gear and all that, but if that's what it's going for, why have the vendors be the middleman when something much more interesting could be done with having professions as that middleman instead? Food for thought.

[Dragunovi]

Yeah I've been personally thinking about those myself, not really lore fitting and kinda destroys the charm of the old sets, perhaps it can be done for future raid sets with lore reasons attached. (aka Tier 3.5/4)

[Velite]

Saw a few people talk about the TBC token system being applied for Vanilla tier sets, gonna discuss this with the team.

I think the cons of the token system are, at the very least, worth considering.

1) You won't be able to equip tier pieces in the raid when you get them anymore, and it doesn't really feel as special to get a token as it does to just get the item directly from the boss.

2) I think that the tier sets in TBC don't quite have quite as strong an identity to them as in Vanilla, because for many classes in TBC, the tier sets had to be split into 2 or even 3 different versions; so for Shamans, Tier 4 was basically just "this totem does a tiny bit more" and "this keystone talent does a tiny bit more". Tier 5, a set that looked like it was made of molten lava, make your...Lesser Healing Wave better (not just on Resto, on all 3 specs btw) and gave you a tiny bit more mana/attack speed/casting speed on a certain proc. The Vanilla tier sets weren't perfect by any means, but they did at least feel more cohesive in their theming. The Tier 2 "Ten Storms" set had a cool feature that made heals apply a Lightning Shield charge onto your targets; if that was coupled with the Tier 3 bonus which made your Lightning Shield give mp5 when it was up or was generally a lot better for the Lightning Bolt-throwing Elemental shamans, it would've been amazingly cool.

3) A minor thing, but something that's always been silly and weird to me is that the vendors have the gear right on them, they could just give it to you to help you save the world and all that, but instead they withhold the gear from you in exchange for these illusive tokens or badges. I get that maybe they'd use the tokens as a basis to help craft the gear and all that, but if that's what it's going for, why have the vendors be the middleman when something much more interesting could be done with having professions as that middleman instead? Food for thought.

It's funny you should mention the token system, the issue with vanilla is that the token system was used starting after BWL. MC ONY and BWL are the only raids that don't use a token system, the rest of them do, but the reason the tokens existed was so that loot wouldn't be wasted and drop tables could be consolidated, it's weird either way from a lore perspective (where did the bosses get all this gear).

The immediate sense of upgrade does exist for some classes, but in many cases the item isn't yet an upgrade since it has yet to be enchanted, at least concerning tier 1.

[Tarluk]

It's funny you should mention the token system, the issue with vanilla is that the token system was used starting after BWL. MC ONY and BWL are the only raids that don't use a token system, the rest of them do, but the reason the tokens existed was so that loot wouldn't be wasted and drop tables could be consolidated, it's weird either way from a lore perspective (where did the bosses get all this gear).

Damn, I legitimately forgot that the post-BWL raids had tier systems. Shows how much I played of Classic before quitting (just before phase 4) lol.

To be fair, I think it works a lot better for smaller 10-20 man raids, when there's no guarantee of even having one of each class in the raid, let alone those who need the tier set and don't already have it. I think the Naxx token system makes some sense, involving profession materials into it is decently cool, but the AQ-40 token system just flat-out looks worse and more unnecessary than any of the other token systems, including the TBC ones.

[Jombo]

I would like to suggest a significant buff to both dungeon sets. I believe that sets for casters should give heal or magical dmg to a small degree and dungeon 0,5 should be slightly better than tier 1 in my opinion. The time and materials required for dungeon 0,5 is no laughing matter unlike how easily one can go to a raid and get a few t1 pieces.
Furthermore, I hope that with Black Morass and in general you will put the meaning back into 5 man instances at high lvl :-) Perhaps even a dungeon 3 set at some point. That would be great (coming from someone who loves to raid, but who also likes 5 mans)

[Rakura]

Since yall are rebalancing does this mean yall can also add in the ability for Druids to use Polearms / Spears?