Parry Tanking As A Rogue?

[Ssai]

Well as the title says this is more of a what if, I'm still leveling my rogue here and have noticed there's a combo spender to increase parry chance as well as a threat increase poison. As far as I know there's a decent amount of parry % chance gear, but I am sure I don't know of all of it and was looking for some help here. I have a very basic gear build that took 5 minutes on atlas loot to make but surely there's better options than a lot of the things here (Parry chance instead of dodge, as well as some of the gear there is just gear I couldn't find dodge or parry for that slot so its a random piece)

Guise of the devourer (helm)
Taut Dragonhide Belt (waist)
Mark of C'Thun (neck)
Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight(MH)
Blackguard (OH)
Bloodfang Gloves (hands)
Drake Fang Talisman(trink1)
Onyxia Blood Talisman (trink2)
Bloodfang Spaulders (shoulders)
Cryptfiend Silk Cloak(Back)
Hailstone Band(ring1)
Ring of binding (ring2)
Bloodfang Pants (legs)
Shadowshifter armguards (Wrist)
Bloodfang Chestpiece (chest)
Bloodfang Boots (boots)

I think 3 set Bloodfang would be important due to threat mostly coming from a poison proc, but of course if theres gear that is just better for this than Bloodfang pieces they'd replace it. Kinda just looking for some help here as far as gear goes.



Edit: It's no longer about parry tanking it is about getting as much avoidance as possible, more than half the gear I listed above is no long ideal for the build you'd run as a rogue tank. With talents, flourish, and decent gear a rogue would be sitting at more avoidance than a bear tank would be making it more likely for a druid to take fatal damage than a rogue would. Of course its not a competition, rogues have 30% more avoidance than druids due to druids not being able to parry, its just the best way i can put into perspective the amount of mitigation a rogue would have. Which is what classic tanking is about. Mitigation. Avoiding and mitigating damage is the goal as a tank, not taking less damage from hits, of course taking less damage is also nice but not what you are aiming for. I believe if agitating poison gives you threat when the poison procs and not when the poison does damage(To prevent threat losses on resists/not being able to even get threat on elementals due to them being immune to the poison damage) rogue could be a viable tank if built proper. Of course we have no way of knowing how agitating poison works as you can't even apply it to your weapon at the moment.

[Friendz001]

Whats your goal? Tanking bosses?
Even if you have a 99% parry chance, that 1% will instakill you.
You are leather wearer and no shield, so no blocking also.

[Ssai]

Whats your goal? Tanking bosses?
Even if you have a 99% parry chance, that 1% will instakill you.
You are leather wearer and no shield, so no blocking also.

I've done a lot more theory crafting since this post, the goal isn't stacking a bunch of parry anymore its getting enough total avoidance to make it viable. A 60 rogue with some mediocre gear should sit at around 70% avoidance with flourish up and talented properly, and getting some good gear should bring you close to 85-90% avoidance and evasion being up bringing them well above the 102% avoidance requirement to not be crushed (most tanks need cds to be at 102 avoidance so this isn't a deal breaker). Being a leather wearer doesn't really mean much druid tanks are leather wearers, granted they have more armor but they only have the ability to dodge where rogues have the ability to parry meaning more overall avoidance meaning on paper a better tank(Of course in practice a druid would probably be better but this is entirely an on paper thing as of now). Not sure why you think 1 hit would be an instakill unless you are talking about a crushing blow but I just explained why a crushing blow shouldn't be a common occurrence and even if it did happen one wouldn't result in an instant death. As far as on paper goes rogue tanking assuming the agitating poison gives threat on the proc itself and not on the poison doing damage, to prevent threat loss on resists/not being able to get threat on elementals in general, is a more solid tank thank a druid bear tank is.

[Friendz001]

Being a leather wearer doesn't really mean much druid tanks are leather wearers, granted they have more armor but they only have the ability to dodge where rogues have the ability to parry meaning more overall avoidance meaning on paper a better tank(Of course in practice a druid would probably be better but this is entirely an on paper thing as of now). Not sure why you think 1 hit would be an instakill unless you are talking about a crushing blow but I just explained why a crushing blow shouldn't be a common occurrence and even if it did happen one wouldn't result in an instant death. As far as on paper goes rogue tanking assuming the agitating poison gives threat on the proc itself and not on the poison doing damage, to prevent threat loss on resists/not being able to get threat on elementals in general, is a more solid tank thank a druid bear tank is.

Im basing it on this article Ive read about vanilla rogue tanks, not more.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wow-clas ... e-tanking/

Even tho the statement that a rogue can "main tank raids" seems to be false, I couldnt find any proof or video
or anything where a vanilla rogue main tanked BWL+ raids.

This spreadsheet might be helpfull for you:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... bg/pubhtml

Being a leather wearer doesn't really mean much druid tanks are leather wearers, granted they have more armor

Not just more armor. They have 180% more armor + HP buff. Thats huge. A rogue on the other hand, when he gets hit,
even with a normal hit, you probably gonna explode unless you arent giga-buffed.

Not saying it isnt possible tho, just saying I havent found any evidence yet.
Im still with you.

[Ssai]

Being a leather wearer doesn't really mean much druid tanks are leather wearers, granted they have more armor but they only have the ability to dodge where rogues have the ability to parry meaning more overall avoidance meaning on paper a better tank(Of course in practice a druid would probably be better but this is entirely an on paper thing as of now). Not sure why you think 1 hit would be an instakill unless you are talking about a crushing blow but I just explained why a crushing blow shouldn't be a common occurrence and even if it did happen one wouldn't result in an instant death. As far as on paper goes rogue tanking assuming the agitating poison gives threat on the proc itself and not on the poison doing damage, to prevent threat loss on resists/not being able to get threat on elementals in general, is a more solid tank thank a druid bear tank is.

Im basing it on this article Ive read about vanilla rogue tanks, not more.
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wow-clas ... e-tanking/

Even tho the statement that a rogue can "main tank raids" seems to be false, I couldnt find any proof or video
or anything where a vanilla rogue main tanked BWL+ raids.

This spreadsheet might be helpfull for you:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... bg/pubhtml

Being a leather wearer doesn't really mean much druid tanks are leather wearers, granted they have more armor

Not just more armor. They have 180% more armor + HP buff. Thats huge. A rogue on the other hand, when he gets hit,
even with a normal hit, you probably gonna explode unless you arent giga-buffed.

Not saying it isnt possible tho, just saying I havent found any evidence yet.
Im still with you.

Apologies I'm not really sure how to quote specific parts of messages as this is my first time using a forum anywhere on the internet. While it might not be possible to main tank in other places I believe it might just be possible due to 21% avoidance from a combo spender on top of extra threat from poisons so you don't have to waste combo points on damage abilities to keep threat meaning you can have the extra avoidance up pretty much 100% of the time without worrying about threat. This is all assuming the poison works as I think it does but there is no way to know cause it can't even be applied to weapons at the moment.

Bears do have an insane + armor and HP buff compared to rogues but the flourish ability changes how a rogue tank would work here compared to anywhere else, it allows you to stack more stam on some pieces rather than straight avoidance which would make you a bit more tanky compared to a "Rogue Tank" elsewhere. Though I've not really crafted the set of items itself cause I just haven't had the time to do it yet and I'm not sure what custom items have been added that I don't know about yet that would be replace regular pieces, I do believe it can be done here if enough time was dumped into building it proper.

[Friendz001]

Apologies I'm not really sure how to quote specific parts of messages as this is my first time using a forum anywhere on the internet. While it might not be possible to main tank in other places I believe it might just be possible due to 21% avoidance from a combo spender on top of extra threat from poisons so you don't have to waste combo points on damage abilities to keep threat meaning you can have the extra avoidance up pretty much 100% of the time without worrying about threat. This is all assuming the poison works as I think it does but there is no way to know cause it can't even be applied to weapons at the moment.

Bears do have an insane + armor and HP buff compared to rogues but the flourish ability changes how a rogue tank would work here compared to anywhere else, it allows you to stack more stam on some pieces rather than straight avoidance which would make you a bit more tanky compared to a "Rogue Tank" elsewhere. Though I've not really crafted the set of items itself cause I just haven't had the time to do it yet and I'm not sure what custom items have been added that I don't know about yet that would be replace regular pieces, I do believe it can be done here if enough time was dumped into building it proper.

Np. Quoting is pretty simple, forums typically use BB-codes wich is a language close to HTML.
You basically have those brackets [*quote] youre text [*/quote] without the stars (*), and anything you
put in between those quote brackets, will appear like this :

I am a quote.

There is also a button on the top of your editor.

Back to topic: Is flourish a turtle wow abilitie? I ahvent played a rogue yet so I have no idea I gotta admit.
If thats a Twow abilite, thats a totaly different story then. I didnt even knew rogues had such an ability.

And yea Im saying this all the time: we need a better database. The turtle wow database is just terrible.
No filters etc. All the custom quests, recipes, items, and we dont even know about them because there is no proper
database...

[Ssai]

Apologies I'm not really sure how to quote specific parts of messages as this is my first time using a forum anywhere on the internet. While it might not be possible to main tank in other places I believe it might just be possible due to 21% avoidance from a combo spender on top of extra threat from poisons so you don't have to waste combo points on damage abilities to keep threat meaning you can have the extra avoidance up pretty much 100% of the time without worrying about threat. This is all assuming the poison works as I think it does but there is no way to know cause it can't even be applied to weapons at the moment.

Bears do have an insane + armor and HP buff compared to rogues but the flourish ability changes how a rogue tank would work here compared to anywhere else, it allows you to stack more stam on some pieces rather than straight avoidance which would make you a bit more tanky compared to a "Rogue Tank" elsewhere. Though I've not really crafted the set of items itself cause I just haven't had the time to do it yet and I'm not sure what custom items have been added that I don't know about yet that would be replace regular pieces, I do believe it can be done here if enough time was dumped into building it proper.

Np. Quoting is pretty simple, forums typically use BB-codes wich is a language close to HTML.
You basically have those brackets [*quote] youre text [*/quote] without the stars (*), and anything you
put in between those quote brackets, will appear like this :

I am a quote.

There is also a button on the top of your editor.

Back to topic: Is flourish a turtle wow abilitie? I ahvent played a rogue yet so I have no idea I gotta admit.
If thats a Twow abilite, thats a totaly different story then. I didnt even knew rogues had such an ability.

And yea Im saying this all the time: we need a better database. The turtle wow database is just terrible.
No filters etc. All the custom quests, recipes, items, and we dont even know about them because there is no proper
database...

I see I see! Thanks!

Yeah there's a custom ability called Flourish that gives you 21% parry and the duration of the buff is dependent on how many points you dump into it, there's also agitating poison that they added that is a poison that generates additional threat. It seems they wanted people to mess around with rogue tank here and try it out but it seems like very few people have or at least few people have discussed it anywhere.

Yeah the Twow database is really helpful for figuring out where to get items that I know exist, but terrible for actually finding new items I don't know exist.

[Xudo]

I played a lot as warrior tank and can add a bit on this topic.
Rogue tanking in combat spec sounds like fun idea, I looking forward to try it. Though, Flourish is not enough.

There are two general situations of tanking:
1. Tanking single very strong target (boss)
2. Tanking a crowd of normal targets (thrash and 5ppl)

Rogue is absolutely not viable for crowd tanking because you need to build combo points on single target. If you switch the target then you lose acquired combo points.
If you play warrior you can easily change targets and Sunder Armor each of them. You build threat on whole group with individual targeted skill. It keeps healer safe.
So if someone ever want rogues as a tanks, they need to solve situation with combo-points in crowds.
Maybe we need finishing move without cooldown and with single tier of effect. Probably something with additional threat.
Maybe there should be AoE skill like Fan of Knives of Warden from Warcraft III.
Maybe combo points for "rogue-tank" should persist on changing targets.

As for situation of single very strong target.
If you have small chance of dying from instant hit, then you need backup tank for this. Why do you want main tank if you constantly need additional backup?
Rogue needs some mitigation or second chance.
Maybe something like "you can survive deadly hit from time to time".
Maybe finishing move like "Reduce melee attack damage of one landed hit from this specific target to this specific rogue by 15/30/45/60/75 percents. 15% per combo point".

[Ssai]

I played a lot as warrior tank and can add a bit on this topic.
Rogue tanking in combat spec sounds like fun idea, I looking forward to try it. Though, Flourish is not enough.

There are two general situations of tanking:
1. Tanking single very strong target (boss)
2. Tanking a crowd of normal targets (thrash and 5ppl)

Rogue is absolutely not viable for crowd tanking because you need to build combo points on single target. If you switch the target then you lose acquired combo points.
If you play warrior you can easily change targets and Sunder Armor each of them. You build threat on whole group with individual targeted skill. It keeps healer safe.
So if someone ever want rogues as a tanks, they need to solve situation with combo-points in crowds.
Maybe we need finishing move without cooldown and with single tier of effect. Probably something with additional threat.
Maybe there should be AoE skill like Fan of Knives of Warden from Warcraft III.
Maybe combo points for "rogue-tank" should persist on changing targets.

As for situation of single very strong target.
If you have small chance of dying from instant hit, then you need backup tank for this. Why do you want main tank if you constantly need additional backup?
Rogue needs some mitigation or second chance.
Maybe something like "you can survive deadly hit from time to time".
Maybe finishing move like "Reduce melee attack damage of one landed hit from this specific target to this specific rogue by 15/30/45/60/75 percents. 15% per combo point".

Rogue tanking a crowd of normal targets couldn't work even with an ability like fan of knives just due to the way energy works and it regenerating in ticks of 20, it would be too slow and difficult to build threat without making the ability itself broken as a dps ability.

As for mitigation, with proper gear you can sit at well over 110% avoidance as a rogue with flourish up while still stacking some gear with stamina on it for more HP making you a bit more tanky and able to take a few hits that get through all of your avoidance.

I do like the idea of a spender that makes you more tanky against that specific target, though I think it going all the way up to 75% might be a bit powerful as far as being able to use it outside of being a tank. It'd have to be something similar to flourish that is powerful but not overpowered.

I do think the way its set up at the moment rogue would be a better tank for a tank and spank fight than a druid bear so it'll be interesting to see

[Xudo]

I think we should not discuss situation of rogue "having 110% avoidance" because tanking not always happens in perfect best in slot gear.
You have to gear up from the blues and be viable option for chosen role all the time.

Regarding the spender. It should work on bosses and should not work on players. This way it would not break something else.
Maybe it should work like "When you get hit for 75% of your max health, then you block 50% of its damage".
Imagine rogue with 3000 hp. Is it possible for boss to hit for 2500 in one strike? I think it is very common.
Is it possible for player to hit for 2500 in one strike? I think it is very very rare situation. Like r14 warrior crits blue rogue.

So when you have 3000 max health and get hit for 2500, then you actually take 1250 damage. It hurts, but you will be alive. Bosses have to hit you for 6000 to instantly kill you.