Dev Blog: Balance in 1.17.2

[Bogyone]

Honestly: I do not like the nerf of weapon skills!
I had perfered another way to balance this for endgame!
We have the Bow Skillbook in Hayal!
Why not offer skillbooks as raid loot? Or as a reward for a class or weapon mastery questline?
I think there are other ways to balance this without buchering the weaponskills and racial bonusses.

For this reason I absolutely loved how the gearing system in SWTOR worked (works?). I know it's not that same franchise but...
Something like this would be Turtle send. Armor shells with set boni to mix and match and then endless upgrades of tiers with improved components. New combinations, reinventing specs and gear mixes, hardening encounters.
For now we have promise that something will get better (but what exactly? :) )

[Glaive]

I think it's awesome that rogues will be able to use axes. Thanks for doing that! There will be a dwarf rogue running around with two axes and a mohawk. You can count on that.

[Xudo]

Hi Xudo, isn't it all already calculated for us on Nostalrius: Weapon skill from 300 to 323 and the implications therein.

While this article is based on some archive pages, it is not how it works on vMangos against mobs.
1. Weapon skill does not reduce chance to get parry.
2. Weapon skill against mobs reduce change to get dodge for 0.1%, not 0.04%. Same for block.
3. Weapon skill grants 0.2% of raw hit if you have below 5 points of skill and 0.1% if you have above 5 points of skill. Plus 2% of raw hit for reaching 5 points of skill.
3. It implies that in DPS situation you get parries and blocks. While you should not get them if you attack from behind.

And I haven't checked glancing blow damage calculation. This article implies fixed amount of damage from glancing blow, while it is random in between some range.

[Luqj]

Druid for 2H sword plz.

[Dhrazar]

People who choose the race just for +weapon skill shouldn't play on turtle either. They just playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else, thinking they are the minmax best.

[Babrakadabra]

NERF WARLOCK, PALADIN, SHAMAN
TY

[Piacrt]

People who choose the race just for +weapon skill shouldn't play on turtle either. They just playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else, thinking they are the minmax best.

Valid way to the play a video game. Love it or hate it. PvE players make up a large amount of the playerbase, we belong here whether you like it or not.

[Jc473]

People who choose the race just for +weapon skill shouldn't play on turtle either. They just playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else, thinking they are the minmax best.

Valid way to the play a video game. Love it or hate it. PvE players make up a large amount of the playerbase, we belong here whether you like it or not.

I think it's a small subsection (i.e. those who raid and/or hardcore) who actually care about +weapon skills racial this much. The rest of the those PvE players who are casual probably don't care about it.

[Ghola]

Weapon skill is like a 10+% damage increase, it's like not pressing whirlwind because youre too casual


It's one of those things where people will make a night elf warrior because "I'm not a sweat" and months later they regret it

its like balancing pvp over people who don't pvp...oh wait...

[Wowplayer9]

Let's nerf warriors even more. Why not just remove them out of the game altogether.
Better yet, just implement Pandaria expansion and get it over with.

[Nonnoanselmo]

Honestly: I do not like the nerf of weapon skills!

I had perfered another way to balance this for endgame!

We have the Bow Skillbook in Hayal!

Why not offer skillbooks as raid loot? Or as a reward for a class or weapon mastery questline?

I think there are other ways to balance this without buchering the weaponskills and racial bonusses.

offering a skillbook as raid loot, so it's just THC or ancient jade leggings or death's sting. All of which are items people foam at the mouth for. Accessibility of weapon skill is good.

[Erhog]

People who choose the race just for +weapon skill shouldn't play on turtle either. They just playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else, thinking they are the minmax best.

With such logic you don't need to make changes in balance due to you SHOULD play your race+class and enjoying it no matter what coz otherwise you are "playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else".

[Dhrazar]

People who choose the race just for +weapon skill shouldn't play on turtle either. They just playing the game for goddamn numbers and nothing else, thinking they are the minmax best.

Valid way to the play a video game. Love it or hate it. PvE players make up a large amount of the playerbase, we belong here whether you like it or not.

I think it's a small subsection (i.e. those who raid and/or hardcore) who actually care about +weapon skills racial this much. The rest of the those PvE players who are casual probably don't care about it.

That's exactly the point. A small amount of players, who are crying the loudest, makes the rest of the players feel, they have to choose human, otherwise they have a huuuge disadvantage.
But that's not true. It's just their point of view, how to play the game, because they don't know how to play it otherwise, beside minmax.
And this makes some people driving themselves crazy, knowing you are successful with a different playstyle.
I'm the main tank of our guild, we are not that big, but we are raiding successfully. And some Paladins in SW whispering me, and telling me i have to choose item xy, and must skill like they did, otherwise i'm not that good, durr durr durr.
But the thing is, i'm fine with my playstyle, i'm not going oom if i don't want to, i'm not loosing aggro.
It's my character and i'm playing it how it makes me happy and it just works.
But i would never force people to play it my way, or this way. Or saying this is the only way.

[Foobs]

Valid way to the play a video game. Love it or hate it. PvE players make up a large amount of the playerbase, we belong here whether you like it or not.

I think it's a small subsection (i.e. those who raid and/or hardcore) who actually care about +weapon skills racial this much. The rest of the those PvE players who are casual probably don't care about it.

That's exactly the point. A small amount of players, who are crying the loudest, makes the rest of the players feel, they have to choose human, otherwise they have a huuuge disadvantage.
But that's not true. It's just their point of view, how to play the game, because they don't know how to play it otherwise, beside minmax.
And this makes some people driving themselves crazy, knowing you are successful with a different playstyle.
I'm the main tank of our guild, we are not that big, but we are raiding successfully. And some Paladins in SW whispering me, and telling me i have to choose item xy, and must skill like they did, otherwise i'm not that good, durr durr durr.
But the thing is, i'm fine with my playstyle, i'm not going oom if i don't want to, i'm not loosing aggro.
It's my character and i'm playing it how it makes me happy and it just works.
But i would never force people to play it my way, or this way. Or saying this is the only way.

Ya I hear you there.

[Plainbear]

Polearm for shaman plz!

A staff with a blade at the end? Impossible to master for us Shamans. What next? Swords?

I am personally for having weapons bonuses as part as a quest chain involving raids or dungeons. Like the dagger skill +5 could be found talking to the Rogue guild, an area most non rogues never visit.

Maybe limit the specializations to make them meaningfull like a profession spec? If you want to be a Wand priest or a Staff priest for example.

[Slashignore]

longer mindflay range please.

[Arthurusmenks]

I dont understand why every single comment is about humans, they still have useful racials:
-Stealth Detection increased
-Increased Spirit
-Bonus rep

Said no one ever...

[Watterboy1]

longer mindflay range please.

Yea spriest should just be able to slow, stun and kill any class at any range with one button and be able to face-tank melee classes still.

[Xanwow]

Are people actually being forced to pick races they dont want to?
Do raid organizers actually pass over someone because they are missing the racial weapon skill?

This seems like a massive change to address non-issue. Especially since twow has a few custom "+ weapon skill" items.

[Ghola]

Why are so many people arguing that people are too casual for a change in weapon skill to matter? thats exactly the reason why its being changed, to empower casuals

suddenly the guy who raids to get drunk with his buddies and roleplay a dwarf is doing 10% more damage and hasn't changed the way he plays at all, and thats a bad thing?

[Gantulga]

I'm convinced that a lot of very vocal people have never actually played on this server past Westfall.

[Plainbear]

Are people actually being forced to pick races they dont want to?
Do raid organizers actually pass over someone because they are missing the racial weapon skill?

This seems like a massive change to address non-issue. Especially since twow has a few custom "+ weapon skill" items.

Some raid leaders refuse to give some weaponsto some races. Like Orcs have priorities for axes and Goblins Daggers and Humans Swords, ect

[Xanwow]

Some raid leaders refuse to give some weaponsto some races. Like Orcs have priorities for axes and Goblins Daggers and Humans Swords, ect

Loot prio is hardly game breaking though, It evens out due to cross faction raids. Humans pass on axes because they get swords and maces, orcs pass on swords because they have axes.

[Plainbear]

Some raid leaders refuse to give some weaponsto some races. Like Orcs have priorities for axes and Goblins Daggers and Humans Swords, ect

Loot prio is hardly game breaking though, It evens out due to cross faction raids. Humans pass on axes because they get swords and maces, orcs pass on swords because they have axes.

Except that there is no Axe legendary while Swords and Maces have Thunderfury and Sulfuras. Elimination of those silly rules would make new raiders less angry when they passed over for not being Humans or Orcs. I like Taurens, but Taurens have no weapon skill so I have no priorities unlike ,most races.

[Xanwow]

Some raid leaders refuse to give some weaponsto some races. Like Orcs have priorities for axes and Goblins Daggers and Humans Swords, ect

Loot prio is hardly game breaking though, It evens out due to cross faction raids. Humans pass on axes because they get swords and maces, orcs pass on swords because they have axes.

Except that there is no Axe legendary while Swords and Maces have Thunderfury and Sulfuras. Elimination of those silly rules would make new raiders less angry when they passed over for not being Humans or Orcs. I like Taurens, but Taurens have no weapon skill so I have no priorities unlike ,most races.

What you are describing is the allure of classic wow. Humans dont get +20% stun resist or blood fury, etc etc. It would be equally as absurd if you put those as things you can obtain from a quest chain. Races have pros and cons, classes have pros and cons.

Most of the other posts say this is aimed at casual player, not raiders trying to get legendary weapons. Even then, you can still get most raid gear (even legendary pieces) with a soft reserve or dkp.

[Plainbear]

Loot prio is hardly game breaking though, It evens out due to cross faction raids. Humans pass on axes because they get swords and maces, orcs pass on swords because they have axes.

Except that there is no Axe legendary while Swords and Maces have Thunderfury and Sulfuras. Elimination of those silly rules would make new raiders less angry when they passed over for not being Humans or Orcs. I like Taurens, but Taurens have no weapon skill so I have no priorities unlike ,most races.

What you are describing is the allure of classic wow. Humans dont get +20% stun resist or blood fury, etc etc. It would be equally as absurd if you put those as things you can obtain from a quest chain. Races have pros and cons, classes have pros and cons.

Most of the other posts say this is aimed at casual player, not raiders trying to get legendary weapons. Even then, you can still get most raid gear (even legendary pieces) with a soft reserve or dkp.

In my year of raiding, I seen several PUG guild refuse to SR a Sword Mace because another person wanted to SR it who had the right race. Making races different is different than Gatekeeping potential gear upgrades. Having Dwarf priest be BIS for raids because other races dont get the Fear Ward is a silly, unfun, thing. Races can feel different via skills like Goblins run away ability or Taurens plainrunning, but some races get bad abilities who make them less good for raids or PVP. Night Elves having to die to use the Wisp ability make Night Elves really bad in Hardcore since they lose a whole Ability slot. I believe abilities like that should be changed/buffed so that races should not play a factor in raids or PVP rankings of BIS

[Xanwow]

In my year of raiding, I seen several PUG guild refuse to SR a Sword Mace because another person wanted to SR it who had the right race. Making races different is different than Gatekeeping potential gear upgrades. Having Dwarf priest be BIS for raids because other races dont get the Fear Ward is a silly, unfun, thing. Races can feel different via skills like Goblins run away ability or Taurens plainrunning, but some races get bad abilities who make them less good for raids or PVP. Night Elves having to die to use the Wisp ability make Night Elves really bad in Hardcore since they lose a whole Ability slot. I believe abilities like that should be changed/buffed so that races should not play a factor in raids or PVP rankings of BIS

Well its certainly dishonorable to refuse to honor a SR. Most pugs ive ran with have had the rule "if you can wear it, you can SR it".

I do agree that racials should add flavor yet not be super impactful to end game play. I wish there was more thought put into his rework, because it seems like most races get a direct buff, while the weapon racials get directly nerfed.

This is especially crap for humans, as two of their racials are getting nerfed, and their others are garbage.

[Jstansberry]

Hi Xudo, isn't it all already calculated for us on Nostalrius: Weapon skill from 300 to 323 and the implications therein.

While this article is based on some archive pages, it is not how it works on vMangos against mobs.
1. Weapon skill does not reduce chance to get parry.
2. Weapon skill against mobs reduce change to get dodge for 0.1%, not 0.04%. Same for block.
3. Weapon skill grants 0.2% of raw hit if you have below 5 points of skill and 0.1% if you have above 5 points of skill. Plus 2% of raw hit for reaching 5 points of skill.
3. It implies that in DPS situation you get parries and blocks. While you should not get them if you attack from behind.

And I haven't checked glancing blow damage calculation. This article implies fixed amount of damage from glancing blow, while it is random in between some range.

Sorry but I believe If you look in Unit.cpp on the vMangos github you can see that this is incorrect. Weapon skill does reduce chance to get parried in a similar way that it reduces chance to be dodged (Check parrySkillBonus).

Also, if you're still curious about glancing blow reduction, you can find it on line 1475 in Unit.cpp :

case MELEE_HIT_GLANCING:
{
damageInfo->HitInfo |= HITINFO_GLANCING;
damageInfo->TargetState = VICTIMSTATE_NORMAL;
damageInfo->procEx |= PROC_EX_NORMAL_HIT;

// Baeza formula: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_ ... did=347613
// Low end : 1.3 - 0.05*(defense - skill) min of 0.01 and max of 0.91
// If the attacker is a caster then this is reduced by 0.7 and max of 0.6
// High end : 1.2 - 0.03*(defense - skill) min of 0.2 and max of 0.99
// If the attacker is a caster then this is reduced by 0.3

int32 skillDiff = pVictim->GetDefenseSkillValue(this) - GetWeaponSkillValue(damageInfo->attackType, pVictim);
float low = 1.3f - 0.05f * skillDiff;
float high = 1.2f - 0.03f * skillDiff;
float lowCap = 0.91f;
float highCap = 0.99f;

if ((GetClassMask() & CLASSMASK_WAND_USERS) != 0) {
low -= 0.7f;
high -= 0.3f;
lowCap = 0.6f;
}

if (low < 0.01f) low = 0.01f;
if (high < 0.2f) high = 0.2f;

if (low > lowCap) low = lowCap;
if (high > highCap) high = highCap;

float reducePercent = frand(low,high);

// sLog.Out(LOG_BASIC, LOG_LVL_MINIMAL, "SkillDiff = %i, reducePercent = %f", SkillDiff, reducePercent); // Pour tests & débug via la console

damageInfo->cleanDamage += uint32((1.0f - reducePercent) * damageInfo->totalDamage);
damageInfo->totalDamage = uint32(reducePercent * damageInfo->totalDamage);

for (uint8 i = 0; i < m_weaponDamageCount[damageInfo->attackType]; i++)
damageInfo->subDamage.damage = uint32(reducePercent * damageInfo->subDamage.damage);

break;
}

[Xudo]

Sorry but I believe If you look in Unit.cpp on the vMangos github you can see that this is incorrect. Weapon skill does reduce chance to get parried in a similar way that it reduces chance to be dodged (Check parrySkillBonus).

I had similar misinterpretation, but when I carefully traced values, I found that in fact parrySkillBonus is always the same. Several people backed this conclusion with in-game statistics.
For dodge calculation is

Code: Select all

int32    dodgeSkillBonus = pVictim->IsPlayer() ? 4 * skillDiff : 10 * skillDiff;

but for parry it is

Code: Select all

int32    cappedSkillDiff = std::min(attackerMaxSkillValueForLevel, attackerWeaponSkill) - victimMaxSkillValueForLevel;
int32    parrySkillBonus = pVictim->IsPlayer() ? 4 * skillDiff : cappedSkillDiff < -10 ? 60 * cappedSkillDiff : 20 * cappedSkillDiff;

[Hdliebtwo]

NERF WARLOCK, PALADIN, SHAMAN
TY

OH NO, I play a wawwiow, and some classes kill me.
NERF THEM, PLOX, I CAN't take it ANYMOA.

[Erhog]

NERF WARLOCK, PALADIN, SHAMAN
TY

OH NO, I play a wawwiow, and some classes kill me.
NERF THEM, PLOX, I CAN't take it ANYMOA.

Funniest thing is that mage or SP aren't mentioned in this list

[Ataika]

too little too slow
sorry, but online rapidly declining already

[Charanko]

NERF WARLOCK, PALADIN, SHAMAN
TY

add shadow priest to nerf; prolly the most broken of all
& buff enhance :P

[Marafado]

makes more sense to send torta and the other russian staff members to ucranian front than keep them plaeasing the china peasents. These creatures are suposed to be good controlling drones (kharkiv aggression will be more productive).

ps: what dont makes sence is other western players and ucranians looking for a pala nerf ;P
ps2: ehhh the hit rating "adjust" can be dificult for the western gold buyers :)

[Hdliebtwo]

makes more sense to send torta and the other russian staff members to ucranian front than keep them plaeasing the china peasents. These creatures are suposed to be good controlling drones (kharkiv aggression will be more productive).

This is incredibly insulting to read.
Marafado = Keyboard bully.
Don't people have better things to do in life?