Pet Scaling

[Seltsamuel]

Hello and good morning.

I do not know how others feel about it. I had a lot of fun raiding with a pet build, be it BM-Hunter or Demo-Warlock. It was really bad in classic and was fixed by The Burning Crusade. I see that the pets gain the ability of Avoidance, but is that enough? I doubt it. It is probably still a meme spec and hunters have to take Trueshot and warlocks either go 30/0/21 or use the usual Demonic Sacrifice to actually be invited into the raid. Warlocks can alleviate that requirement if there are not enough warlocks, thanks to their curse. But that should not be it, right?

What I would propose is hide increased pet scaling deeper in said pet trees, so it can not easily snatched up by other specs, for example, adding it to Frenzy in the BM spec and Master Demonologist for the demo warlock. Or you split the scaling aspects and scatter them through all the pet talents in said trees. The scaling could be related to the actual owners stats, so you can actually see the difference between a BM hunter in greens and one who is raid geared (and probably still laughed at), similar to how BC and later on did pet scaling. It is really sad when you level with a void walker that has less hit points than you in times.

With the increases that deep in the trees, and by the warlock needing the pet to be actually alive, it would not alter the usual go to specs that hard, but may make these specs marginally less bad.

[Phoenixphire]

Yeah pet scaling needs to be added to ever fix those specs/ playstyles and without stuff like kill command it isnt like scaling is gonna make those specs op. Really a no brainer change imo

[Xudo]

I'm ok with pet scaling ONLY IF hunter will not be able to shoot.

Recently there was a thread about pet scaling.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4872

Hunter pets with stats scaled from hunter will be a nightmare in PvP. You'll have to fight against two enemies instead of one. If you want scaled pets, then you need to tradeoff some power of hunter itself.

[Seltsamuel]

If you are concerned with lower level PvP, its easily fixed by adding the scaling to higher level talents. If its a general concern, then there could be an option to give pets a general damage debuff when fighting players to mitigate their "awesome" power.

[Kairion]

Pets will face the same problem with dps as Enhancements and Ferals also have to battle with. they have no option to get rid of glancing blows.

This makes flat scaling quite a bit worse in raiding than for any other content (for instance pvp). But if only the damage is scaled, not the survivability, it would allow people to still kill the pet in PvP if it should be a problem. But to prevent this from being a problem, just burry it deep enough in the BM tree.

Wow Classic had a few talents that were only accessable next to the lvl 31 Talent. Warlocks improved Spellstone or here on turtle Brilliance aura next to arcane power comes to mind.

Adding a new talent next to Bestial Wrath increasing pet weapon skill by 1 & 5-8% Of hunters agility & strength.

TBC pets had 40% of their owners stats. Which i think is a bit too strong for classic. so limiting to offense only and reduicing it a bit might be in order. This way it specifically can't be conbined with scattershot and makes the hunter himself quite vulnerable if they choose to abuse it in PvP. Giving other players a chance to either rush down the hunter, or since the defense isn't boosted, just kill the Pet. This also makes it completely unattainable before level 40. Solving the low level problem

[Akarui]

Pets will face the same problem with dps as Enhancements and Ferals also have to battle with. they have no option to get rid of glancing blows.

This makes flat scaling quite a bit worse in raiding than for any other content (for instance pvp). But if only the damage is scaled, not the survivability, it would allow people to still kill the pet in PvP if it should be a problem. But to prevent this from being a problem, just burry it deep enough in the BM tree.

Wow Classic had a few talents that were only accessable next to the lvl 31 Talent. Warlocks improved Spellstone or here on turtle Brilliance aura next to arcane power comes to mind.

Adding a new talent next to Bestial Wrath increasing pet weapon skill by 1 & 5-8% Of hunters agility & strength.

TBC pets had 40% of their owners stats. Which i think is a bit too strong for classic. so limiting to offense only and reduicing it a bit might be in order. This way it specifically can't be conbined with scattershot and makes the hunter himself quite vulnerable if they choose to abuse it in PvP. Giving other players a chance to either rush down the hunter, or since the defense isn't boosted, just kill the Pet. This also makes it completely unattainable before level 40. Solving the low level problem

not adding new talents. Demonology and BM already has talents for buffing pets/demons. Pets its a part of dps for all specs, near 30-40% of total dps for BM. With getting new gear u just increase one part. Scaling must be as a basic stuff. Ye 40% is too much. for agility and strength - 10-15% is enough for stamina and armor - 20-25% is enough. For resistances 50-100%. I think.
And on my opinion should be more differen between pet`s/demon`s base armor, hp, and damage.

[Kairion]

not adding new talents. Demonology and BM already has talents for buffing pets/demons. Pets its a part of dps for all specs, near 30-40% of total dps for BM. With getting new gear u just increase one part. Scaling must be as a basic stuff. Ye 40% is too much. for agility and strength - 10-15% is enough for stamina and armor - 20-25% is enough. For resistances 50-100%. I think.
And on my opinion should be more differen between pet`s/demon`s base armor, hp, and damage.

If you add scaling baseline, you end up also buffing the specs that do not rely on the Pet. Marksman will also take adventage of a significantly harder hitting and stury pet. Particularly in regards to PvP this can be oppressive. Also both classes are exceptionally good levelers thanks to their pets. The last thing they need is a baseline improvement to their leveling. If you choose the passive path you have to reduce the pets base survivablity to compensate.

Resistance should absolutely not scale if Tier set bonuses are not addressed. You can easily get 200+ Resistences onto your pet/felhound already.

Having more standout features by pet selection would surely be apprechiated, but i think as a topic that should be handled seperately from scaling. As one is flavor the other is gamebalance. The demons on the otherhand all do have clearly defined roles appart from maybe felhound. I wouldn't want them changed in significant ways. I'd rather encourage warlock to actually use a pet instead of just sacrificing a succubus all the time.

[Seltsamuel]

If you add scaling baseline, you end up also buffing the specs that do not rely on the Pet. Marksman will also take adventage of a significantly harder hitting and stury pet. Particularly in regards to PvP this can be oppressive. Also both classes are exceptionally good levelers thanks to their pets. The last thing they need is a baseline improvement to their leveling. If you choose the passive path you have to reduce the pets base survivablity to compensate.

It is nice to see a discussion to the topic and not just a full blown NO. What would even be nicer to see that the start of said discussion would be included as well. The pet scaling can easily be added to talents deeper in beast mastery and demology. That way, the the marksman hunter can not profit from it. If you split the scaling effects over different talents, you could even pick and chose. In example for the demo warlock (since other recommendations for BM were already done in a different topic linked in this thread)

Improved Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus: Gain X% of armour and resists from your master.
Fel Intellect: Gain X% of intellect from your master.
Fel stamina: Gain X% of stamina from your master.
Unholy Power: Gain X% of AP and SP scaled form the SP of your master.
Master of demology: Gain all of them above.

Probably totalling the bonus from master stats to:

1 Stamina Point = 0.2 Stamina for your Pet (+2 HP for every +10 for you)

1 Resistance Point = 0.26 Resist for your Pet

1 Armour Point = 0.23 Armor for your Pet

1 Spell Damage (Shadow) = 0.10 Spell Damage to your Pet, or 0.37 Attack Power.

1 Intellect Point = 0.2 Int for your Pet (+2 Mana for every 10 of you)

Which is 2/3rds of the scaling BC would add.

Thats 19 points in total where you can spread about the power increase the warlock demon. What other Warlock could afford that? Especially with the debuff cap not really allowing a full blown affliction spec?

Resistance should absolutely not scale if Tier set bonuses are not addressed. You can easily get 200+ Resistences onto your pet/felhound already.

So in other words. Just change the set bonus to something actually meaningful, since even the dozens extra stamina and resists were not really that awesome in raiding. No one actively healed your and you lose your precious DPS using mend pet or even worse, channel the heal on your pet as warlock.

Having more standout features by pet selection would surely be apprechiated, but i think as a topic that should be handled seperately from scaling. As one is flavor the other is gamebalance. The demons on the otherhand all do have clearly defined roles appart from maybe felhound. I wouldn't want them changed in significant ways. I'd rather encourage warlock to actually use a pet instead of just sacrificing a succubus all the time.

Gamebalance is important and I will never say it wont. But how do you balance something everyone sees as a joke (in raiding) when not with some buffs? If the pets get really out of hand, just implement a damage debuff to the pets towards players. Blizzard did the same with the mercenaries in Diablo 2, where they did only 1/4 of their damage to them.

The thing is just, that shadow mastery (10% more shadow damage), Ruin (100% more critical hit damage for destruction spells), Mortal Shots (30% moore critical hit damage for hunter shots) and so on scale with your gear. Now look at unleashed fury (20% more pet damage) and the other talents, that scale with a static value that scales with nothing you get.

[Akarui]

not adding new talents. Demonology and BM already has talents for buffing pets/demons. Pets its a part of dps for all specs, near 30-40% of total dps for BM. With getting new gear u just increase one part. Scaling must be as a basic stuff. Ye 40% is too much. for agility and strength - 10-15% is enough for stamina and armor - 20-25% is enough. For resistances 50-100%. I think.
And on my opinion should be more differen between pet`s/demon`s base armor, hp, and damage.

If you add scaling baseline, you end up also buffing the specs that do not rely on the Pet. Marksman will also take adventage of a significantly harder hitting and stury pet.

omg. i think u never played for hunter or warlock. Pet - part of class. for marksman pet is 20% of dps, and MM still need pet as tank. U affraid that pet (20%) will deal x1.1 dmg?) or will have +500hp on 60 lvl with good geared Hunter. If u want to forget about pet - u could. With compensating by adding new tallent "Lone wolf", or adding passive boneses for hunter by non-attacking pet. In this case all 100% dps deals a hunter and all 100% depends on gear.

Particularly in regards to PvP this can be oppressive.

i understand that being full equipped against pet as a poor mob is a pleasant for all classes which fights with hunter, but its just a gap, a little fail of basic game design. Blizzard changed that in next update, but too much. Dont do too much and all be fine.

Also both classes are exceptionally good levelers thanks to their pets.
The last thing they need is a baseline improvement to their leveling. If you choose the passive path you have to reduce the pets base survivablity to compensate.

Sure. For 10-40 lvl and green geared everything remains as before. thats why on my opinion for hunter - better scaling pet is adding this % for training skills. Because they need appropriate pet level

Resistance should absolutely not scale if Tier set bonuses are not addressed. You can easily get 200+ Resistences onto your pet/felhound already.

by relearning all pet skills as talents and sacrificing a large number of TP? annoying. Imaging that u cant just change ur gear for MC, u need relearn all talents just for resistance. Weird dont u think so?

[Artofwill]

As a hunter player my self who's close to 60 I would love to see some more viability towards BM tree. While I understand that as the name suggestions it's a Pet focused tree, therefore scaling would make sense. I think there could be some interesting ways of introducing scaling to the tree beyond purely improve pet stats.

A few options I think could be interesting to see is to introduce a talent that allows you to perform auto shots while you are using eye of the beast (targeting the same target as the pet is attacking). Along with the buffs to the talent increasing pet damage and duration of said spell, it bot thematically supports BM tree as well as boosting it's viability (at least in pve).

A second option would be to add scaling onto the talent Sprit Bond. As currently it's a useless talent since the healing is negligible. I believe it becomes a bit more viable by introducing a 10/20% scaling to the hunter along with the healing. In order to make use of this talent to the fullest, a Hunter would like need to invest more than 31 points into BM tree therefore trading off positives from the other two trees.

Those two options I think would dramatically improve the quality of the BM tree while also adding potentially interesting builds/play styles to it, without it becoming the meta build.

Just some food for thought, and I would love some feedback on those ideas.

[Kairion]

If you add scaling baseline, you end up also buffing the specs that do not rely on the Pet. Marksman will also take adventage of a significantly harder hitting and stury pet. Particularly in regards to PvP this can be oppressive. Also both classes are exceptionally good levelers thanks to their pets. The last thing they need is a baseline improvement to their leveling. If you choose the passive path you have to reduce the pets base survivablity to compensate.

It is nice to see a discussion to the topic and not just a full blown NO. What would even be nicer to see that the start of said discussion would be included as well. The pet scaling can easily be added to talents deeper in beast mastery and demology. That way, the the marksman hunter can not profit from it. If you split the scaling effects over different talents, you could even pick and chose. In example for the demo warlock (since other recommendations for BM were already done in a different topic linked in this thread)

Improved Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus: Gain X% of armour and resists from your master.
Fel Intellect: Gain X% of intellect from your master.
Fel stamina: Gain X% of stamina from your master.
Unholy Power: Gain X% of AP and SP scaled form the SP of your master.
Master of demology: Gain all of them above.

Probably totalling the bonus from master stats to:

1 Stamina Point = 0.2 Stamina for your Pet (+2 HP for every +10 for you)

1 Resistance Point = 0.26 Resist for your Pet

1 Armour Point = 0.23 Armor for your Pet

1 Spell Damage (Shadow) = 0.10 Spell Damage to your Pet, or 0.37 Attack Power.

1 Intellect Point = 0.2 Int for your Pet (+2 Mana for every 10 of you)

Which is 2/3rds of the scaling BC would add.

Thats 19 points in total where you can spread about the power increase the warlock demon. What other Warlock could afford that? Especially with the debuff cap not really allowing a full blown affliction spec?

Resistance should absolutely not scale if Tier set bonuses are not addressed. You can easily get 200+ Resistences onto your pet/felhound already.

So in other words. Just change the set bonus to something actually meaningful, since even the dozens extra stamina and resists were not really that awesome in raiding. No one actively healed your and you lose your precious DPS using mend pet or even worse, channel the heal on your pet as warlock.

Having more standout features by pet selection would surely be apprechiated, but i think as a topic that should be handled seperately from scaling. As one is flavor the other is gamebalance. The demons on the otherhand all do have clearly defined roles appart from maybe felhound. I wouldn't want them changed in significant ways. I'd rather encourage warlock to actually use a pet instead of just sacrificing a succubus all the time.

Gamebalance is important and I will never say it wont. But how do you balance something everyone sees as a joke (in raiding) when not with some buffs? If the pets get really out of hand, just implement a damage debuff to the pets towards players. Blizzard did the same with the mercenaries in Diablo 2, where they did only 1/4 of their damage to them.

The thing is just, that shadow mastery (10% more shadow damage), Ruin (100% more critical hit damage for destruction spells), Mortal Shots (30% moore critical hit damage for hunter shots) and so on scale with your gear. Now look at unleashed fury (20% more pet damage) and the other talents, that scale with a static value that scales with nothing you get.

I tend to cut off the quote insidequotes normally as its redundant information and makes the overall post size moredigestable. But back into the topic

Splitting out the effects onto different talents is surely one feasable option to do it as opposed to just burrying it at the bottom. But the talents buffed need to be carefully considered. Slapping it onto talents that are already taken currently only widens the tap between the good and the bad talents. I like Artofwills suggestion here in adding something to spiritbond. It fits thematically, is deep enough to be worthy of it, and its a bad talent currently.

For warlock demons i think there is some support with fel intellect & fel stamina zo go with your solution. But if we truely want some use out of scaling, hound & succubus need to get a source of ap instead of just int.

Resistence i'm fairly certain id like to keep. In their current form you can give your pet some resistences while levelling and also for raids. You dont necessarily want the same resistences a melee does in a fight. Having a lower possible topend of 260 with set, trained skill & buffs is ufficient. But wearing 200 resistences yourself might not be necessary due to your range. Sure it being a setbonus might not be ideal due to how hard it is to ge a hold of. But being able to tailor the resistence the pet need independently from yours is a practical thing i woudn't want to miss. Maybe slash the setbonus and offload that into a 2 resistences/level talent for your pet so with pet training you are about equal. And @Akarui yes you aint supposed to train everything to your pet. You can reskill your pet if necessary. Free ~25% dmg resist against all spell schools is a bit too convinient.

Im not against adding new pets or pet abilities that are "different. Quite the opposite in fact. But it does in my mind not serf the topic of scaling. "oh just get a choccobo" is about as frustrating as dps fix as getting told "just specc mm" any family with positive attackdamage basestats should be viable.

[Mac]

If you add scaling baseline, you end up also buffing the specs that do not rely on the Pet. Marksman will also take adventage of a significantly harder hitting and stury pet. Particularly in regards to PvP this can be oppressive. Also both classes are exceptionally good levelers thanks to their pets. The last thing they need is a baseline improvement to their leveling. If you choose the passive path you have to reduce the pets base survivablity to compensate.

It is nice to see a discussion to the topic and not just a full blown NO. What would even be nicer to see that the start of said discussion would be included as well. The pet scaling can easily be added to talents deeper in beast mastery and demology. That way, the the marksman hunter can not profit from it. If you split the scaling effects over different talents, you could even pick and chose. In example for the demo warlock (since other recommendations for BM were already done in a different topic linked in this thread)

Improved Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus: Gain X% of armour and resists from your master.
Fel Intellect: Gain X% of intellect from your master.
Fel stamina: Gain X% of stamina from your master.
Unholy Power: Gain X% of AP and SP scaled form the SP of your master.
Master of demology: Gain all of them above.

Probably totalling the bonus from master stats to:

1 Stamina Point = 0.2 Stamina for your Pet (+2 HP for every +10 for you)

1 Resistance Point = 0.26 Resist for your Pet

1 Armour Point = 0.23 Armor for your Pet

1 Spell Damage (Shadow) = 0.10 Spell Damage to your Pet, or 0.37 Attack Power.

1 Intellect Point = 0.2 Int for your Pet (+2 Mana for every 10 of you)

Which is 2/3rds of the scaling BC would add.

Thats 19 points in total where you can spread about the power increase the warlock demon. What other Warlock could afford that? Especially with the debuff cap not really allowing a full blown affliction spec?

Resistance should absolutely not scale if Tier set bonuses are not addressed. You can easily get 200+ Resistences onto your pet/felhound already.

So in other words. Just change the set bonus to something actually meaningful, since even the dozens extra stamina and resists were not really that awesome in raiding. No one actively healed your and you lose your precious DPS using mend pet or even worse, channel the heal on your pet as warlock.

Having more standout features by pet selection would surely be apprechiated, but i think as a topic that should be handled seperately from scaling. As one is flavor the other is gamebalance. The demons on the otherhand all do have clearly defined roles appart from maybe felhound. I wouldn't want them changed in significant ways. I'd rather encourage warlock to actually use a pet instead of just sacrificing a succubus all the time.

Gamebalance is important and I will never say it wont. But how do you balance something everyone sees as a joke (in raiding) when not with some buffs? If the pets get really out of hand, just implement a damage debuff to the pets towards players. Blizzard did the same with the mercenaries in Diablo 2, where they did only 1/4 of their damage to them.

The thing is just, that shadow mastery (10% more shadow damage), Ruin (100% more critical hit damage for destruction spells), Mortal Shots (30% moore critical hit damage for hunter shots) and so on scale with your gear. Now look at unleashed fury (20% more pet damage) and the other talents, that scale with a static value that scales with nothing you get.

I tend to cut off the quote insidequotes normally as its redundant information and makes the overall post size moredigestable. But back into the topic

Splitting out the effects onto different talents is surely one feasable option to do it as opposed to just burrying it at the bottom. But the talents buffed need to be carefully considered. Slapping it onto talents that are already taken currently only widens the tap between the good and the bad talents. I like Artofwills suggestion here in adding something to spiritbond. It fits thematically, is deep enough to be worthy of it, and its a bad talent currently.

For warlock demons i think there is some support with fel intellect & fel stamina zo go with your solution. But if we truely want some use out of scaling, hound & succubus need to get a source of ap instead of just int.

Resistence i'm fairly certain id like to keep. In their current form you can give your pet some resistences while levelling and also for raids. You dont necessarily want the same resistences a melee does in a fight. Having a lower possible topend of 260 with set, trained skill & buffs is ufficient. But wearing 200 resistences yourself might not be necessary due to your range. Sure it being a setbonus might not be ideal due to how hard it is to ge a hold of. But being able to tailor the resistence the pet need independently from yours is a practical thing i woudn't want to miss. Maybe slash the setbonus and offload that into a 2 resistences/level talent for your pet so with pet training you are about equal. And @Akarui yes you aint supposed to train everything to your pet. You can reskill your pet if necessary. Free ~25% dmg resist against all spell schools is a bit too convinient.

Im not against adding new pets or pet abilities that are "different. Quite the opposite in fact. But it does in my mind not serf the topic of scaling. "oh just get a choccobo" is about as frustrating as dps fix as getting told "just specc mm" any family with positive attackdamage basestats should be viable.

You can also spoiler overly long quotes to prevent the posts from becoming too long.

[Seltsamuel]

I think I need to quote myself to accentuate my point. Just quoting anything is silly and I split your comment up to address the different points. Just quoting a wall of text is needless, with or without a spoiler to hide it.

@Kairion

Highlighting by be

[...]
Probably totalling the bonus from master stats to:

1 Stamina Point = 0.2 Stamina for your Pet (+2 HP for every +10 for you)

1 Resistance Point = 0.26 Resist for your Pet

1 Armour Point = 0.23 Armor for your Pet

1 Spell Damage (Shadow) = 0.10 Spell Damage to your Pet, or 0.37 Attack Power.

1 Intellect Point = 0.2 Int for your Pet (+2 Mana for every 10 of you)

Which is 2/3rds of the scaling BC would add.

Thats 19 points in total where you can spread about the power increase the warlock demon. What other Warlock could afford that? Especially with the debuff cap not really allowing a full blown affliction spec?

Succubus and Hound would get AP from the spell power conversion of the master. You would need to spec into your preferred demon to get the resists and armour, so it has any way to survive. That way, the improved demon talents are used once in a while. The spirit bond idea is good for the hunter, since it even seems to be thematic fitting, but you can not apply this to the demo warlock. Soul Link is a nobrainer to take and adding all the benefits to this would be quite problematic in the power boost.

The warlocks using demon sacrifice just spec the stamina and health stone. Every other point is due to the sacrifice not really useful. Affliction warlocks could profit from a slightly beefed up demon, but where do you see them? Probably in PvP? That is a perspective that has to be kept in mind and my main focus for this choice was from PvE.


I do not really understand, why the BM hunter or demo warlock would need to spend more than 31 points into their tree, though. What other class is forced to do this to be good at what they are doing? The only one that comes to my mind is arcane mage.

[Kairion]

My bad, i missed the line that said attackpower.

Soullink in the version present on Turtle is already an amazing talent and we should definitely not slap it on there. But there is imho potential to add a new talent as precurser to SL. Sac makes no sense in that spot anyway. Offer sacrifice as standalone talent and give us an alternative to skill instead if we wanna go deep demo.
Stating empty points to get to sacrifice as a non demo lock kinda sucks but might be its own can of worms. Especially since its in its current form still worth it.

As much as i don't want powercreep in PvP, i think if the succubus remains somewhat squishy there shouldn't be a big issue. You normally do want Shadowburn for PvP due to its burst damage potential.

The biggest beneficiary might be destro for his seduce + shadowbolt combos - but thats already a extremely vulnerable specc, so his succubus being a bit more survivable might not be gamebreaking. But that would have to be tested out. When in doubt, just give succubus worse surviability but better damage scaling than the other pets to balance it out.

Enhancement shaman used to have to skill improved grace of air totem at the same level stormstrike was at. and i always thought its thematically fitting. if you REALLY want to specialize into using your pet you would dump more points into that tree. Frostmage might also be a contender for using more than 31 points into the primary tree. Not sure about it tho.
But the more i think about it the less i like it myself. its just an artificual blob of stats/power at the end of the tree. Its the very same thing i critiqued about modern wows talent trees.

[Akarui]

My bad, i missed the line that said attackpower.

Soullink in the version present on Turtle is already an amazing talent and we should definitely not slap it on there. But there is imho potential to add a new talent as precurser to SL. Sac makes no sense in that spot anyway. Offer sacrifice as standalone talent and give us an alternative to skill instead if we wanna go deep demo.
Stating empty points to get to sacrifice as a non demo lock kinda sucks but might be its own can of worms. Especially since its in its current form still worth it.

As much as i don't want powercreep in PvP, i think if the succubus remains somewhat squishy there shouldn't be a big issue. You normally do want Shadowburn for PvP due to its burst damage potential.

The biggest beneficiary might be destro for his seduce + shadowbolt combos - but thats already a extremely vulnerable specc, so his succubus being a bit more survivable might not be gamebreaking. But that would have to be tested out. When in doubt, just give succubus worse surviability but better damage scaling than the other pets to balance it out.

Enhancement shaman used to have to skill improved grace of air totem at the same level stormstrike was at. and i always thought its thematically fitting. if you REALLY want to specialize into using your pet you would dump more points into that tree. Frostmage might also be a contender for using more than 31 points into the primary tree. Not sure about it tho.
But the more i think about it the less i like it myself. its just an artificual blob of stats/power at the end of the tree. Its the very same thing i critiqued about modern wows talent trees.

so its okay when ur gear grows but part of ur dps not? its okay if for example shaman, paladin, warrior with good gear can do easily pack of mobs 55-58 lvl classes with pet should blows up own brain for that ? u think only about pvp. ok. so a well geared character with a poor weak mob as a pet is a good ?
i think its not okay when on 10-40 ur pet is a killing machine with armor as a plate+shield (cat or turtle doesnt matter). 40-59 just good companion. 60 - poor weak mob, which near 30%(15-20% for MM) is part of ur dps and dies quickly by few AOE boss casts. And doesnt matter u in green or epic items. He will always a same poor mob with a same dmg, hp, armor. its not okay for me.
But what do u think? is it okay?

[Spriggit]

That's a good point to bring up. The way demonology/bm feels leveling up vs how they feel at cap are very different. Its like they are a different kind of class at 60.

Would love to see some energy spent on making pet centered specs as having pets that are effective and valuable.

[Seltsamuel]

Yes. I hope this sprouts some attention from a turtle. The other class changes I have seen so far are mostly to make a spec actually work. Same would go for this change.

[Kairion]

My bad, i missed the line that said attackpower.

Soullink in the version present on Turtle is already an amazing talent and we should definitely not slap it on there. But there is imho potential to add a new talent as precurser to SL. Sac makes no sense in that spot anyway. Offer sacrifice as standalone talent and give us an alternative to skill instead if we wanna go deep demo.
Stating empty points to get to sacrifice as a non demo lock kinda sucks but might be its own can of worms. Especially since its in its current form still worth it.

As much as i don't want powercreep in PvP, i think if the succubus remains somewhat squishy there shouldn't be a big issue. You normally do want Shadowburn for PvP due to its burst damage potential.

The biggest beneficiary might be destro for his seduce + shadowbolt combos - but thats already a extremely vulnerable specc, so his succubus being a bit more survivable might not be gamebreaking. But that would have to be tested out. When in doubt, just give succubus worse surviability but better damage scaling than the other pets to balance it out.

Enhancement shaman used to have to skill improved grace of air totem at the same level stormstrike was at. and i always thought its thematically fitting. if you REALLY want to specialize into using your pet you would dump more points into that tree. Frostmage might also be a contender for using more than 31 points into the primary tree. Not sure about it tho.
But the more i think about it the less i like it myself. its just an artificual blob of stats/power at the end of the tree. Its the very same thing i critiqued about modern wows talent trees.

so its okay when ur gear grows but part of ur dps not? its okay if for example shaman, paladin, warrior with good gear can do easily pack of mobs 55-58 lvl classes with pet should blows up own brain for that ? u think only about pvp. ok. so a well geared character with a poor weak mob as a pet is a good ?
i think its not okay when on 10-40 ur pet is a killing machine with armor as a plate+shield (cat or turtle doesnt matter). 40-59 just good companion. 60 - poor weak mob, which near 30%(15-20% for MM) is part of ur dps and dies quickly by few AOE boss casts. And doesnt matter u in green or epic items. He will always a same poor mob with a same dmg, hp, armor. its not okay for me.
But what do u think? is it okay?

WHERE in my statements have i categorically rejected scaling pets?

[Seltsamuel]

I do not want to derail this, but my guess is that this is the usual with forums. Things only get partially read and you have your own opinion of someone else already formed....


What makes me more sad. There does not seem to be much more support from others for this suggestion and the non-scaling pets will probably stay, making 31+ talent points in two trees rather bad for anything, that does not involve lower content grinding.

[Markuis]

What makes me more sad. There does not seem to be much more support from others for this suggestion and the non-scaling pets will probably stay, making 31+ talent points in two trees rather bad for anything, that does not involve lower content grinding.

+1 for the pet scaling. I already comente on the other post.

[Seltsamuel]

Pondering about it, my suggestion for warlock would look like this:

Firstly, you add Improved Felhunter to Demonology. I never understood, why the last permanent demon did not get talent in Vanilla. Secondly, add a passive to the talent tree at 30 points next to Soul Link, that would require Master Demonologist. Its there so party members might want a different demon instead of the imp, who already offers great support.




With 3/3 of :Improved Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhunter: Gain 0.23% armour and 0.26% resists from your master.
With 3/3 Fel Intellect: Gain 20% of intellect from your master.
With 3/3 Fel stamina: Gain 20% of stamina from your master.
With 5/5 Unholy Power: Gain 37% of AP and 10% SP scaled form the highest SP of your master.
With 2/2 Demonic Pact increases these values by 50% for Intellect, stamina and damage and 30% for armour and resists. The 25% base stat boost to 37.5% of Fel Intellect, Fel Stamina and the 20% base damage boost to 30% of Unholy Power could be too much (?).
On the other hand, you use at least 33 talent points for something, that does not up your own damage in any form, except Master Demonologist (10%) and Sou Link (3%). The shadow tree offers 15% while giving you a better life tap, night fall procs and other goodies.

The total scaling of the master would lead to following increases to the demon, assuming you went deep into Demology:

1 Stamina Point = 0.3 Stamina for your Pet (+3 HP for every +10 for you)
1 Resistance Point = 0.33 Resist for your Pet
1 Armour Point = 0.29 Armour for your Pet
1 Spell Damage (Shadow) = 0.15 Spell Damage to your Pet, or 0.48 Attack Power.
1 Intellect Point = 0.3 Int for your Pet (+3 Mana for every 10 of you)

This would be BC scaling for demology warlocks and a weaker version of scaling for non-demology warlocks. All numbers are just recommendations and the extra damage buff to the demon or the extra improvement to the improved demon talents could be too much?

[Seltsamuel]

For Beast Mastery Hunters I would propose the following:

Pets of all specs gain a base scaling of:

Pets get 10% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Pets get 11,6% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Pets get 7,3% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
Pets get 4.16% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Pets get 13,3% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.

Then the following talents gain following benefits:

Endurance Training 3/3: Pets get 20% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Thick Hide 3/3: Pets get 23,4% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Ferocity 5/5: Pets get 14,7% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power and 9,84% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Spirit Link 2/2: Pets get 26,7% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances and 100% of hit chance as bonus hit chance for spells and melee attacks.

This would total the pet scaling to:

Pets get 30% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Pets get 35% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Pets get 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
Pets get 12.5% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Pets get 40% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.
Pets get 100% of the hunter's hit chance added to their own hit chance.


There is still the case of glancing blows and some pet families not having their own abilities, but some of this is addressed in other threads.

[Kairion]

Glancing blows honestly aren't a big deal. The hunter himself is quite potent and is already the only physical class that doesn't have to deal with glancing glows. I think its okey if pets still need to deal with glancings.

As long as its survivable and steadily deals its damage in raids, the mission is accomplished. Even with Glancing blows still in, it doesn't make a huge impact on the dps of even a beastmaster hunter

[Seltsamuel]

I think the same. If its too much of concern, there is always the chance of adding items to alleviate this. There is already a vanilla trinket for the imp and a custom chest armour for the hunter pet. Sacrificing item space to achieve stronger pets is therefore a valid option.

[Geojak]

pets are already extrmeley strong, until and inclduing early lvl 60.

yes pets fall behind at 60 once the hunter gets epic gear and the pets is left behind.

but pet scaling at low lvl would result in the joke of tbc hunter at low level. it compelty destroy any game balance that prevously existed.

so. pets scaling pls only at lvl 60 endgame and not before.

maybe introduce some new pet skills yo ucan train it only available at 60

[Seltsamuel]

That could be an option as well. Just add tomes for warlocks and skills at the trainer. Problem would be, though, that every spec can get them and everyone would receive a power spike. I do not know if this is wanted.

[Akarui]

For Beast Mastery Hunters I would propose the following:

Pets of all specs gain a base scaling of:

Pets get 10% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Pets get 11,6% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Pets get 7,3% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
Pets get 4.16% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Pets get 13,3% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.

Then the following talents gain following benefits:

Endurance Training 3/3: Pets get 20% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Thick Hide 3/3: Pets get 23,4% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Ferocity 5/5: Pets get 14,7% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power and 9,84% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Spirit Link 2/2: Pets get 26,7% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances and 100% of hit chance as bonus hit chance for spells and melee attacks.

This would total the pet scaling to:

Pets get 30% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Pets get 35% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Pets get 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
Pets get 12.5% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Pets get 40% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.
Pets get 100% of the hunter's hit chance added to their own hit chance.


There is still the case of glancing blows and some pet families not having their own abilities, but some of this is addressed in other threads.

Nice +1

pets are already extrmeley strong, until and inclduing early lvl 60.

yes pets fall behind at 60 once the hunter gets epic gear and the pets is left behind.

but pet scaling at low lvl would result in the joke of tbc hunter at low level. it compelty destroy any game balance that prevously existed.

so. pets scaling pls only at lvl 60 endgame and not before.

maybe introduce some new pet skills yo ucan train it only available at 60

use a calculator at first

[Xudo]

There is still the case of glancing blows and some pet families not having their own abilities, but some of this is addressed in other threads.

According to https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki ... ow#Pre_2.1
Part "Pre 2.1"

Players have a chance to perform a glancing blow against mobs equal to 10% plus 2% per point of difference between attack rating and defense....Weapon skill above your level * 5, as from gear or racial bonuses, affects neither the damage reduction nor the chances of landing a glancing blow. A mob's Defense skill is equal to its level * 5.

Main source of glancing blows is difference between levels. Hunters could get a talent to allow their pet to be higher level than hunter. Up to +3. So pet "weapon skill" will be equal to any boss "defense skill".
If hunter unlearn that talent, all his pets should lose additional levels.

[Kairion]

Not everyone and everything needs weaponskill to become useful. Just stat scaling would go a long way to make pets more usable in raids as its simply much more likely to survive a stray cleave or aoe attack without having to perfectly micromanage it.

We also get better uptime on the attackspeed buff due to increased crit. Weaponskill is only about 12% whitehit damage. That doesnt matter much for the pet because the main problem is its lack of survivability in raids while outsideof raids weaponskill is mostly irrelevant

[Spriggit]

Since class edits are being tossed around, I just wanted to bring back attention to this great thread on pet talents for hunters and warlocks.