Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Xudo
Posts: 201

Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:59 pm

Currently you can enchant item with enchant of any level.
My proposal is: To equip enchanted item character should have level greater or equal to enchant level.
Level requirement is calculated by formula:
Level = (enchanting skill required to learn recipe) / 5 - 11.

Fiery weapon required 265 enchanting to learn. It means that weapon enchanted with fiery weapon should require lvl 265/5-11=42 to equip. Even if weapon itselft requires 19 lvl.
Players with level 19 could use enchants which require 150 enchanting skill to learn.

Without level restrictions we have twinks with 19 lvl enchanted like they are 60 lvl. I like playing battlegrounds on low levels. I am absolutely understand the rules "get your best gear, enchant it to max and go play". It is a bit hard to get good enchants playing only low level and I accept that challenge.

But I think that using high level enchants on a low level characters is a flaw in design.

My reasons:
1. This change fits a concept of using consumables and buffs of appropriate level. All potions require specific player level. Low level players can't drink high level potions. All grenades require specific engineering skill. Low level players can't use high level grenades. If you buff player with high-level Power word: Shield, he gets buff of appropriate level.
2. This change will reduce the gap between twinks and non-twinks. It will lead to more fair play.
3. This change will improve market of low level enchantment reagents and services. Currently noone is offering low level enchants. Noone needs that enchants either. People level enchanting by enchanting single item over and over.
4. Blizz tried to change that flaw in Burning Crusade with item level requirement. You could not enchant Mongoose on weapon with item level lower than 35. Though they have added this requirement only to BC enchants.

I don't want to add "item level" idea to the game. Thats why I propose to change level requirements of a items. It will scale better. Similar to engineering or skinning.

P.S. Librams should apply level requirement too
P.S.2 Possible exceptions
P.S.3 More low level enchants
Last edited by Xudo on Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
Posts: 766

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:34 pm

I think blizzard did something like this later on.

I agree on your point 3. On the above but overall I don't think this change is needed.

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F41lz0rs
Posts: 76

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by F41lz0rs » Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:25 am

just make better enchants that dont cost an arm and a leg to do at lvl 23... ill take a weaker enchant if it means i dont pay through the nose...

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F41lz0rs
Posts: 76

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by F41lz0rs » Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:26 am

also let me enchant everything with something not just 3 peices...

Xudo
Posts: 201

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:48 am

Geojak wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:34 pm
I agree on your point 3. On the above but overall I don't think this change is needed.
I personally propose this change because I want more players in 10-19. Currently I see mostly twinks who farm eachother on daily basis. High level enchants is one of their power.
Currently regular players join, get humilated in PvP and leave bg for good. If regular player with stopped xp at 19 and gear from dungeons will be able to compete with twinks, then there will be more players in this bracket and more new PvP players.
More PvP players means higher amount of people in standing and easier to get r14 for top players.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
Posts: 766

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am

Twinking is fun. Would be sad to see it ruined.

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Markuis
Posts: 162

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Markuis » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:58 am

Geojak wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am
Twinking is fun. Would be sad to see it ruined.
Nice joke... It's fun for the twink, he can destroy casual players. It would be different if there was a twink only bg with boosted honor gains. I suspect only twinks worry about enchants tho, and not someone who is leveling and will try to get better equipment as soon as posible.

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Sinrek
Posts: 1085

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Sinrek » Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:08 pm

Low level enchanting lack in a huge variety of enchants for +2, +3 and so on until medium size and higher …
satisfied_turtle Slowly turtling my way up.

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Oxdrum34
Posts: 3

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Oxdrum34 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm

This is a great idea and I would support TWoW applying something like this. Excellent point in referencing the level requirements for potions, etc. Enchanting should be the same and the fact that it isn't seems to indicate an original oversight issue.

Would be great to see level-appropriate enchants in BGs and make combat more interesting.

Xudo
Posts: 201

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:22 pm

There are also other enchants.
1. Rewards from Libram of Voracity which grant 8 stats to head or legs.
This quest requires lvl 50 to start. So those items also should increase level requirement to 50.
2. Rewards from Libram of Constitution 100 hp. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.
3. Rewards from Libram of Focus 8 damage and healing. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
4. Rewards from Libram of Protection 1% dodge. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
5. Reward from Libram of Rapidity 1% attack speed. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
6. Reward from Libram of Resilience 20 fire resistance. Enchanted item should require 50.
7 Reward from Libram of Rumination 150 mana. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.
8 Reward from Libram of Tenacity 125 armor. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.

It is also possible that ZG enchants are possible to enchant via trade. So I link them too.

9 Rewards from Signets of the Zandalar. 30 attack power, 18 spd, 33 healing, 14 stamina. Enchanted item should require 58 lvl.

Sapphiron enchants. It would be crazy if someone actually enchant 19 twink with it. But anyway. I'll note them to make sure they are not forgotten.
Power of the Scourge
Resilience of the Scourge
Might of the Scourge
Fortitude of the Scourge
Items enchanted with this should require lvl 60.

There is also Steel Weapon Chain which require blacksmithing 190 to apply. item level 38. If I apply enchanting logic here, then it should require 27 lvl.
Iron Shield Spike requires 150 blacksmithing, so enchanted item should require lvl 19
Mithril Shield Spike requires 215 blacksmithing, so enchanted item should require lvl 32

Core Armor Kit 3 defense. Requires leatherworking 300. With proposed change it should require 49 lvl.

Light Armor Kit require 1 LW to learn, so no level requirement.
Medium Armor Kit require 100 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 9.
Heavy Armor Kit require 150 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 19.
Thick Armor Kit require 200 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 20.
Rugged Armor Kit require 250 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 39.

Crude Scope require 60 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 1
Standard Scope require 110 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 11
Accurate Scope require 180 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 25
Deadly Scope require 210 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 31
Sniper Scope require 240 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 37
Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope require 300 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 49
Last edited by Xudo on Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

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Ugoboom
Posts: 348

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Ugoboom » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:22 pm

Big big big agree. Enchants are most the power of twinks and fixing this design flaw like later blizz did will save low lv bgs from life support.

Making a twink should be doable by someone on their first toon, not by someone with too much gold at 60 to dump 500g on enchants.

OP gear like stv fishing hat and boots should be nerfed on their stam as they were meant to be xmog/fish skill only items anyway.

If you want a twink server, roll on chromiecraft or similar, so everyone can be a twink together. Thats what twink players say they want, but often wont put their money where their mouth is. I personslly will, i enjoy twink v twink, but yeah others dont.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Jeannine - Leveling Undead Warlock
Cenaria - Leveling Resto Dryad

Mac
Posts: 421

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Mac » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:07 am

I think it is fair. You can still twink, but the gap is lowered.

Adding to this, the Arena Grand Master Trinket should have a required level of at least 35, as the Arena Master trinkets have a required level of 35. Currently the grand master trinket has no required level and is totally broken for lower levels to have.

You would also want to look into raising the required level to use bandages, and match them with the requirement to make them.

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Shamma
Posts: 479

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Shamma » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:39 am

There is 1 major reason I might massively dislike this - what happens to speed on boots? I love putting that on every toon at lvl 1.

Totuga
Posts: 84

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Totuga » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 pm

This puts pveers on the fence.
You're essentially asking to gimp the levelers and non-pvp people in an rp server, for the sake of twink pvp balance. This would be a mistake, and would be poorly received, specially since it would indirectly encourage and favor boosting.

If twinks are the issue, find a way for this to apply only in battlegrounds and such. The outrage from the non-pvp community would be justified otherwise

Xudo
Posts: 201

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:14 pm

Sinrek wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:08 pm
Low level enchanting lack in a huge variety of enchants for +2, +3 and so on until medium size and higher …
I agree on this. I'll think about adding low level versions of all enchants and add them to this proposal.
I actually like the idea of librams and arcanums as "quest which you should do to acquire head enchant". But they also should be balanced to players level. More quests like this is good thing.
Shamma wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:39 am
There is 1 major reason I might massively dislike this - what happens to speed on boots? I love putting that on every toon at lvl 1.
This is serious point, which needs some thought. I'd like to see your options to solve this. My options are:
1. Lower skill requirement for this enchant to 60. So it could be enchanted for anyone.
2. Moving this recipe to 200 skill to allow its usage at 29 lvl.
3. Introduce special quest with reward with speed increasing cloth boots without level requirement
4. Do nothing.

With proposed change, boots with minor speed will require 225/5-11=34 level to equip.
I want to emphasise that minor speed on boots in battleground is a difference between life and death. If you are without enchant and your enemy with enchant, you will not get away. If you are followed by hunter, you will be shot down in back. If your enemy with enchant and you are without, then enemy could just run away. It is almost mandatory for anyone who is going PvP.

Why 29?
All classes get speed increase at 20 lvl.
Paladins could get Purcuit of Justice at 21.
Druids could get Feline swiftness at 21.
Mages get blink at 20.
Shamans get Ghost Wolf at 20 iirc.
Hunters get aspect of the Cheetah at 20.
Warriors and warlocks don't get any improvements iirc.
There is reputational boots like Highlander\'s Chain Greaves from Arathi reputation. There are horde and alliance versions. Cloth, leather, mail options are available.
Thats why I personally like the idea to move this recipe to 200 skill.
Totuga wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 pm
This puts pveers on the fence.
You're essentially asking to gimp the levelers and non-pvp people in an rp server, for the sake of twink pvp balance. This would be a mistake, and would be poorly received, specially since it would indirectly encourage and favor boosting.
I'd really like to see some specific points about this change from real PvErs and RPs. I think we will find an agreement.
So far, I know that two cases of using high level enchants on low level players:
1. Twinks
2. Alts during leveling. Just because main characters have enough gold and can afford this

Twinking community somewhat choking itself. Regular players join bg once or twice. They get humiliated and wont register again. is it good to have one battleground per evening for twink player? I think no.
Fun fact. Actual twink players support this proposal. I spoke to some of them. And they replied this thread. They actually get tired of facerolling battlegrounds with almost no resistance.
If TWoW reduce twink powers and clearly state this in "server features", then more battlegrounds will happen. More players will play 10-19.

Good news is that I don't propose to ban enchants completely. I propose using enchants equal to your character level.
If you have beloved alt and can spend gold, then you will be able to spend this gold on lower level enchants.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
Posts: 766

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm

If devs decided to fix twinking gearing before actually implementing a honour system fix ( easy two linrs of code I discussed in other topic)
Then I would be honestly buffed and would feel fooled.

Fix the elegant in the room. Av honor, twinking is very controversial already. And imo too liitle importance but I might be ignorant

Xudo
Posts: 201

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:45 pm

Geojak wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm
If devs decided to fix twinking gearing before actually implementing a honour system fix ( easy two linrs of code I discussed in other topic)
Then I would be honestly buffed and would feel fooled.

Fix the elegant in the room. Av honor, twinking is very controversial already. And imo too liitle importance but I might be ignorant
If those "two lines of code" are not fixed already, then I have bad news for you.
It is not changing because there are some reasons that are not discussed in public.
Our proposals target different playerbase, so there is no need to pretend "it is you or me".
If my proposal will be done, I think that it will be good for low level PvP bringing more PvP players to 60. This way it will surely be good for you too.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

Totuga
Posts: 84

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Totuga » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:53 pm

Xudo, you quoted a specific example in your response: Enchant boots - Speed.
And proposed "4. Do nothing" as a solution.

Twinking may be important to a slice of the playerbase, but any change that negatively impacts other areas of the game has a permanent -1.
This is an rp-pve server. Don't go into a bakery asking for gluten free products.
Stay. Enjoy the croissants.

Xudo
Posts: 201

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:33 pm

Totuga wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:53 pm
Xudo, you quoted a specific example in your response: Enchant boots - Speed.
And proposed "4. Do nothing" as a solution.

Twinking may be important to a slice of the playerbase, but any change that negatively impacts other areas of the game has a permanent -1.
This is an rp-pve server. Don't go into a bakery asking for gluten free products.
Stay. Enjoy the croissants.
Please describe how exactly this change will negatively impact other areas and we'll discuss them. So far you are not very specific. You just state "It will be bad". What exactly will be bad for others?
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant. Consumed by real life.
No 60 lvl character.
Applying enchant to item should increase required level
Change low level brackets
Add lvl requirement to bandages

Have fun not only at 60.

User avatar
Shamma
Posts: 479

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Shamma » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:45 pm

Minor speed on boots is not a twinking enchant. It is the best enchant in the game for everybody. From lvl 1 to 60. PVE and PVP both. It does not cost a lot of gold. Every player, who has a char over lvl 30-40 can easily afford multiple of these for his low lvl alt as well. Running around w/o a mount, this 8% speed increase feels like you are riding the wind!

We want it to be available from lvl 1.

"Do nothing." is the WRONG solution hurting everybody.

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