Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Xudo
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Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:59 pm

Currently you can enchant item with enchant of any level. Like 30 spell damage on white BoE dagger of 1 lvl.

My proposal is to fix that exploit somehow.

Brainstorming led to multiple possible implementations:
1. TBC way. Add "Only usable on items level 35 and above" requirement. Like Rugged Armor Kit has now.
With this change, something should be done with existing applied enchants. I think that most fair way would be on character login, strip those enchants and send materials by mail.
2. Reduce effect if enchant applied on low level item. Like it is done with buffs. Like you cast rank 7 MotW, but player of lvl 17 receive rank 3. You apply 100 hp on chest, but player gets 25 hp enchant.
Mativh wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:16 pm
That is why high level enchants should either be restricted to high level items while lower levels would get a lesser xyz equivalent of those or new low level enchants... or enchants should be weakened if used by a lower level player, similarly how spell power coefficient loses 3% potency every level below 20.
Problem with existing enchants can be solved exactly like in point 1. Strip and mail them.
Or they can be replaced by low level couterparts too.
3. Increase required level of item if it has high-level enchant. If you apply Rugged Armor Kit with item lvl 35 requirement, then item require 35 lvl too.
To equip enchanted item character should have level greater or equal to enchant level.
Level requirement is calculated by formula:
Level = (enchanting skill required to learn recipe) / 5 - 11.

Fiery weapon required 265 enchanting to learn. It means that weapon enchanted with fiery weapon should require lvl 265/5-11=42 to equip. Even if weapon itselft requires 19 lvl.
Players with level 19 could use enchants which require 150 enchanting skill to learn.

I don't want to add "item level" idea to the game. Thats why I propose to change level requirements of a items. It will scale better. Similar to engineering or skinning.

With this change, all enchanted items should get increased level and unequipped. Enchant remains intact, but you have to level to equip item.
4. Disable this enchant even if applied. If item level don't match actual requirement, then enchant don't add its value.
It is probably simplest solution. It works for already applied enchants and for any new one.
Though it might be unintuitive to see no error message. If people don't know about this, they will write countless bugreports.

Without level restrictions we have twinks with 19 lvl enchanted like they are 60 lvl. I like playing battlegrounds on low levels. I am absolutely understand the rules "get your best gear, enchant it to max and go play". It is a bit hard to get good enchants playing only low level and I accept that challenge.

But I think that using high level enchants on a low level characters is a flaw in design.

My reasons:
1. This change fits a concept of using consumables and buffs of appropriate level. All potions require specific player level. Low level players can't drink high level potions. All grenades require specific engineering skill. Low level players can't use high level grenades. If you buff player with high-level Power word: Shield, he gets buff of appropriate level.
2. This change will reduce the gap between twinks and non-twinks. It will lead to more fair play.
3. This change will improve market of low level enchantment reagents and services. Currently noone is offering low level enchants. Noone needs that enchants either. People level enchanting by enchanting single item over and over.
4. Blizz tried to change that flaw in Burning Crusade with item level requirement. You could not enchant Mongoose on weapon with item level lower than 35. Though they have added this requirement only to BC enchants.


P.S. Librams should apply level requirement too
P.S.2 Possible exceptions
P.S.3 More low level enchants
Last edited by Xudo on Fri May 17, 2024 3:08 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:34 pm

I think blizzard did something like this later on.

I agree on your point 3. On the above but overall I don't think this change is needed.

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F41lz0rs
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by F41lz0rs » Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:25 am

just make better enchants that dont cost an arm and a leg to do at lvl 23... ill take a weaker enchant if it means i dont pay through the nose...

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F41lz0rs
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by F41lz0rs » Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:26 am

also let me enchant everything with something not just 3 peices...

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:48 am

Geojak wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:34 pm
I agree on your point 3. On the above but overall I don't think this change is needed.
I personally propose this change because I want more players in 10-19. Currently I see mostly twinks who farm eachother on daily basis. High level enchants is one of their power.
Currently regular players join, get humilated in PvP and leave bg for good. If regular player with stopped xp at 19 and gear from dungeons will be able to compete with twinks, then there will be more players in this bracket and more new PvP players.
More PvP players means higher amount of people in standing and easier to get r14 for top players.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am

Twinking is fun. Would be sad to see it ruined.

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Markuis
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Markuis » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:58 am

Geojak wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am
Twinking is fun. Would be sad to see it ruined.
Nice joke... It's fun for the twink, he can destroy casual players. It would be different if there was a twink only bg with boosted honor gains. I suspect only twinks worry about enchants tho, and not someone who is leveling and will try to get better equipment as soon as posible.

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Sinrek
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Sinrek » Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:08 pm

Low level enchanting lack in a huge variety of enchants for +2, +3 and so on until medium size and higher …
satisfied_turtle Slowly turtling my way up.

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Oxdrum34
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Oxdrum34 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm

This is a great idea and I would support TWoW applying something like this. Excellent point in referencing the level requirements for potions, etc. Enchanting should be the same and the fact that it isn't seems to indicate an original oversight issue.

Would be great to see level-appropriate enchants in BGs and make combat more interesting.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:22 pm

There are also other enchants.
1. Rewards from Libram of Voracity which grant 8 stats to head or legs.
This quest requires lvl 50 to start. So those items also should increase level requirement to 50.
2. Rewards from Libram of Constitution 100 hp. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.
3. Rewards from Libram of Focus 8 damage and healing. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
4. Rewards from Libram of Protection 1% dodge. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
5. Reward from Libram of Rapidity 1% attack speed. Enchanted item should require 57 lvl.
6. Reward from Libram of Resilience 20 fire resistance. Enchanted item should require 50.
7 Reward from Libram of Rumination 150 mana. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.
8 Reward from Libram of Tenacity 125 armor. Enchanted item should require 50 lvl.

It is also possible that ZG enchants are possible to enchant via trade. So I link them too.

9 Rewards from Signets of the Zandalar. 30 attack power, 18 spd, 33 healing, 14 stamina. Enchanted item should require 58 lvl.

Sapphiron enchants. It would be crazy if someone actually enchant 19 twink with it. But anyway. I'll note them to make sure they are not forgotten.
Power of the Scourge
Resilience of the Scourge
Might of the Scourge
Fortitude of the Scourge
Items enchanted with this should require lvl 60.

There is also Steel Weapon Chain which require blacksmithing 190 to apply. item level 38. If I apply enchanting logic here, then it should require 27 lvl.
Iron Shield Spike requires 150 blacksmithing, so enchanted item should require lvl 19
Mithril Shield Spike requires 215 blacksmithing, so enchanted item should require lvl 32

Core Armor Kit 3 defense. Requires leatherworking 300. With proposed change it should require 49 lvl.

Light Armor Kit require 1 LW to learn, so no level requirement.
Medium Armor Kit require 100 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 9.
Heavy Armor Kit require 150 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 19.
Thick Armor Kit require 200 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 20.
Rugged Armor Kit require 250 leatherworking, so enchanted item should require lvl 39.

Crude Scope require 60 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 1
Standard Scope require 110 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 11
Accurate Scope require 180 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 25
Deadly Scope require 210 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 31
Sniper Scope require 240 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 37
Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope require 300 engineering, so enchanted item should require lvl 49
Last edited by Xudo on Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Ugoboom
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Ugoboom » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:22 pm

Big big big agree. Enchants are most the power of twinks and fixing this design flaw like later blizz did will save low lv bgs from life support.

Making a twink should be doable by someone on their first toon, not by someone with too much gold at 60 to dump 500g on enchants.

OP gear like stv fishing hat and boots should be nerfed on their stam as they were meant to be xmog/fish skill only items anyway.

If you want a twink server, roll on chromiecraft or similar, so everyone can be a twink together. Thats what twink players say they want, but often wont put their money where their mouth is. I personslly will, i enjoy twink v twink, but yeah others dont.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

Mac
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Mac » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:07 am

I think it is fair. You can still twink, but the gap is lowered.

Adding to this, the Arena Grand Master Trinket should have a required level of at least 35, as the Arena Master trinkets have a required level of 35. Currently the grand master trinket has no required level and is totally broken for lower levels to have.

You would also want to look into raising the required level to use bandages, and match them with the requirement to make them.

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Shamma
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Shamma » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:39 am

There is 1 major reason I might massively dislike this - what happens to speed on boots? I love putting that on every toon at lvl 1.

Totuga
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Post by Totuga » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 pm

57
Last edited by Totuga on Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:14 pm

Sinrek wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:08 pm
Low level enchanting lack in a huge variety of enchants for +2, +3 and so on until medium size and higher …
I agree on this. I'll think about adding low level versions of all enchants and add them to this proposal.
I actually like the idea of librams and arcanums as "quest which you should do to acquire head enchant". But they also should be balanced to players level. More quests like this is good thing.
Shamma wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:39 am
There is 1 major reason I might massively dislike this - what happens to speed on boots? I love putting that on every toon at lvl 1.
This is serious point, which needs some thought. I'd like to see your options to solve this. My options are:
1. Lower skill requirement for this enchant to 60. So it could be enchanted for anyone.
2. Moving this recipe to 200 skill to allow its usage at 29 lvl.
3. Introduce special quest with reward with speed increasing cloth boots without level requirement
4. Do nothing.

With proposed change, boots with minor speed will require 225/5-11=34 level to equip.
I want to emphasise that minor speed on boots in battleground is a difference between life and death. If you are without enchant and your enemy with enchant, you will not get away. If you are followed by hunter, you will be shot down in back. If your enemy with enchant and you are without, then enemy could just run away. It is almost mandatory for anyone who is going PvP.

Why 29?
All classes get speed increase at 20 lvl.
Paladins could get Purcuit of Justice at 21.
Druids could get Feline swiftness at 21.
Mages get blink at 20.
Shamans get Ghost Wolf at 20 iirc.
Hunters get aspect of the Cheetah at 20.
Warriors and warlocks don't get any improvements iirc.
There is reputational boots like Highlander\'s Chain Greaves from Arathi reputation. There are horde and alliance versions. Cloth, leather, mail options are available.
Thats why I personally like the idea to move this recipe to 200 skill.
Totuga wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 pm
This puts pveers on the fence.
You're essentially asking to gimp the levelers and non-pvp people in an rp server, for the sake of twink pvp balance. This would be a mistake, and would be poorly received, specially since it would indirectly encourage and favor boosting.
I'd really like to see some specific points about this change from real PvErs and RPs. I think we will find an agreement.
So far, I know that two cases of using high level enchants on low level players:
1. Twinks
2. Alts during leveling. Just because main characters have enough gold and can afford this

Twinking community somewhat choking itself. Regular players join bg once or twice. They get humiliated and wont register again. is it good to have one battleground per evening for twink player? I think no.
Fun fact. Actual twink players support this proposal. I spoke to some of them. And they replied this thread. They actually get tired of facerolling battlegrounds with almost no resistance.
If TWoW reduce twink powers and clearly state this in "server features", then more battlegrounds will happen. More players will play 10-19.

Good news is that I don't propose to ban enchants completely. I propose using enchants equal to your character level.
If you have beloved alt and can spend gold, then you will be able to spend this gold on lower level enchants.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Geojak
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Geojak » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm

If devs decided to fix twinking gearing before actually implementing a honour system fix ( easy two linrs of code I discussed in other topic)
Then I would be honestly buffed and would feel fooled.

Fix the elegant in the room. Av honor, twinking is very controversial already. And imo too liitle importance but I might be ignorant

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:45 pm

Geojak wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm
If devs decided to fix twinking gearing before actually implementing a honour system fix ( easy two linrs of code I discussed in other topic)
Then I would be honestly buffed and would feel fooled.

Fix the elegant in the room. Av honor, twinking is very controversial already. And imo too liitle importance but I might be ignorant
If those "two lines of code" are not fixed already, then I have bad news for you.
It is not changing because there are some reasons that are not discussed in public.
Our proposals target different playerbase, so there is no need to pretend "it is you or me".
If my proposal will be done, I think that it will be good for low level PvP bringing more PvP players to 60. This way it will surely be good for you too.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Totuga
Posts: 82

Post by Totuga » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:53 pm

55
Last edited by Totuga on Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:33 pm

Totuga wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:53 pm
Xudo, you quoted a specific example in your response: Enchant boots - Speed.
And proposed "4. Do nothing" as a solution.

Twinking may be important to a slice of the playerbase, but any change that negatively impacts other areas of the game has a permanent -1.
This is an rp-pve server. Don't go into a bakery asking for gluten free products.
Stay. Enjoy the croissants.
Please describe how exactly this change will negatively impact other areas and we'll discuss them. So far you are not very specific. You just state "It will be bad". What exactly will be bad for others?
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Shamma
Posts: 540

Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Shamma » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:45 pm

Minor speed on boots is not a twinking enchant. It is the best enchant in the game for everybody. From lvl 1 to 60. PVE and PVP both. It does not cost a lot of gold. Every player, who has a char over lvl 30-40 can easily afford multiple of these for his low lvl alt as well. Running around w/o a mount, this 8% speed increase feels like you are riding the wind!

We want it to be available from lvl 1.

"Do nothing." is the WRONG solution hurting everybody.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:58 pm

Which other enchants should be available for anyone, besides Minor Speed?
Gloves Fishing, Herbalism, Mining, Skinning, Riding? Cloak Stealth?

EDIT: After some thought, I propose to add exceptions to general rule. Following enchants require high skill to learn, but their effect is equal for all levels or no effect in PvP at all. They are not like "+40 damage proc" in case when your regular attack deal 50 damage.
Minor speed is must-have for all levels. All others are added just because I don't want to add single exception. All possible exceptions are here.

Enchant Boots - Minor Speed I don't like adding this to exception. But this enchant is just "must have" for all PvPers. In addition it is used by non-PvPers in levelling. So I decided to step forward.
Enchant Gloves - Riding Skill Same as above. Looks "must have" for movement in battlegrounds and in world.
Enchant Gloves - Advanced Herbalism No PvP value.
Enchant Gloves - Advanced Mining No PvP value.
Enchant Gloves - Fishing No PvP value.
Enchant Gloves - Mining No PvP value.
Enchant Gloves - Skinning No PvP value.
Enchant Gloves - Threat No PvP value.
Enchant Cloak - Subtlety No PvP value.
Enchant Cloak - Dodge Little PvP value, equal to all levels.
Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste Little PvP value, equal to all levels.
Enchant Shield - Lesser Block Little PvP value, equal to all levels.
Last edited by Xudo on Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:00 pm

To improve variety of low level enchants, following enchants could be added:

Fiery weapon is probably most popular enchant for rogues and warriors. It procs from instant melee attacks. Thats why It is often used. Elemental fire is acquired from mobs starting at 24 level, so this enchant can't be used at 19 bracket at all.
a. Minor Fiery Weapon. Requires enchanting 170. Increases level requirement to 23.
Reagents: Small Glimmering Shard x4, Elemental Fire x1
Permanently enchant a melee weapon to often strike for additional 10 fire damage.
b. Lesser Fiery Weapon. Requires enchanting 220. Increases level requirement to 33.
Reagents: Small Glowing Shard x4, Heart of Fire x1
Permanently enchant a melee weapon to often strike for additional 25 fire damage.

Currently there is Gloves - Agility which requires 210 skill and will require 31 lvl. I'd like to add similar to earlier brackets.
c. Gloves - Minor Agility. Requires enchanting 110. Increases level requirement to 11
Reagents: Lesser Magic Essence x1, Strange dust x1
Permanently enchant gloves to grant +1 Agility.
d. Gloves - Lesser Agility. Requires enchanting 160. Increases level requirement to 21
Reagents: Lesser Astral Essence x1, Soul Dust x1
Permanently enchant gloves to grant +3 Agility

e. Gloves - Minor Strength. All stats like Gloves - Minor Agility. Reagents: Lesser Magic Essence x2, Strange Dust x3
f. Gloves - Lesser Strength. All stats like Gloves - Minor Strength. Reagents: Lesser Astral Essence x2, Soul Dust x1

Improvement for casters gloves should be available for low levels too:
fire, frost, shadow, holy, nature, arcane, healing
g. Gloves - Minor Fire Power. Requires enchanting 180. Increases level requirement to 25
Reagents: Large Glimmering Shard x10, Elemental Fire x4
Permanently enchant gloves to increase fire damage by up to 5.
Frost - Elemental Water x4
Shadow - Shadow Oil x4 (it is used in shadow tailoring recipes)
Holy - Holy Protection Potion x4
Nature - Elemental Earth x4
Arcane - Greater Astral Essence x4
Healing - Elemental Air x1
h. Gloves - Lesser Fire Power. Requires enchanting 230. Increases level requirement to 35
Reagents: Large Glowing Shard x10, Heart of Fire x4
Permanently enchant gloves to increase fire damage by up to 10.
Frost - Globe of Water x4
Shadow - Ichor Of Undeath x4
Holy - Greater Holy Protection Potion x4
Nature - Heart of the Wild x4
Arcane - Greater Mystic Essence x4
Healing - Breath of Wind x1

Agility for 1 handed weapons.
i. Weapon - Minor Agility. Requires enchanting 190, Increases level requirement to 27.
Reagents: Large Glimmering Shard x6, Greater Astral Essence x6, Soul Dust x4, Elemental Air x2
Permanently enchant a melee weapon to grant +5 Agility.
j. Weapon - Lesser Agility. Requires enchanting
Reagents: Large Radiant Shard x6, Greater Nether Essence x6, Vision Dust x4, Breath of Wind x2
Permanently enchant a melee weapon to grant +10 Agility.

k. Weapon - Minor Strength. All stats like Weapon - Minor Agility.
Reagents: Elemental Earth instead of Elemental Air.
l. Weapon - Lesser Strength. All stats like Weapon - Lesser Agility.
Reagents: Heart of the Wild instead of Breath of Wind.

more to be done
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Totuga
Posts: 82

1

Post by Totuga » Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:26 am

45
Last edited by Totuga on Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:05 am

Totuga wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:26 am
Remove stealth from that list. It is the literal only enchant I'd say you're right about removing from low levels because it does affect even world pvp, while affecting pve in an extremely tiny way.
I agree. I had a doubt about stealth. Removed from exception list.
Totuga wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:26 am
With that said, that 40 damage proc makes or breaks the fun for some people when it comes to leveling... So remove = nono. Stick your guns pointed at "disable or limit only during bg" and you'll get more people to support your initiative.
And this is that I don't agree totally. This entire suggestion is supposed to prevent low level players to use high-level enchants that give too much power for the level. If you think that you should use high-level enchant on low level player - you are not the person from whom I expect support.
Disabling or limiting enchants "only during bg" is not an option because high-level enchants affect world pvp.

There is no vote in this thread, so "support" can't be measured or expressed otherwise. Our goal in this thread not to show support. We have literally three goals:
1. Describe reasons to change.
2. Describe detailed description of proposed system.
3. Discuss pros and cons.

So far you just state "I don't like this change". "I want powerful enchant on my low level toon". All of this is not reasons.
Use enchants available to your level.
You don't drink high level potions by low level characters. Why should enchants be otherwise?
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Ugoboom
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Ugoboom » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:23 pm

Totuga wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 pm
This puts pveers on the fence.
You're essentially asking to gimp the levelers and non-pvp people in an rp server, for the sake of twink pvp balance. This would be a mistake, and would be poorly received, specially since it would indirectly encourage and favor boosting.

If twinks are the issue, find a way for this to apply only in battlegrounds and such. The outrage from the non-pvp community would be justified otherwise
No lol, levelers arent running around with 30sp to weapon, crusader, 15/25 agi to wep, 15 agi to gloves...... only twinks do this. it is insanely cost prohibative for anyone but a permanent twink to get these, and these plus all the stam enchants give insane player power to twinks.

At best, levelers will only get firey, minor movespeed. I would like to see minor movespeed+stats at 60 and minor movespeed that we know to become a lv 10 enchant. A low lv firey enchant would also be nice, so that firey can become a lv 45-59 enchant or so.
Zaas - 60 High Elf Warrior
Saere - 60 Night Elf Priest
Splendra - 59 Inferno Mode Warlock
I play a few other classes on my friends' accounts.
Slowly leveling a Resto Dryad and a dorf pally with my buddy.

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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:26 pm

The main reason why I proposed such convoluted system "increase required level" is because it will affect already enchanted items.
As soon as new PvP server opens up, it is possible to add BC-style enchant limitations like "Only usable on items level 35 and above." to all enchants in the game and there will be no inherited gear with top end enchants on them.
Ugoboom wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:23 pm
I would like to see minor movespeed+stats at 60 and minor movespeed that we know to become a lv 10 enchant. A low lv firey enchant would also be nice, so that firey can become a lv 45-59 enchant or so.
It also good idea. Minor speed is must-have enchant for every PvPer, so it can be available earlier.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Applying enchant to item should increase required level

Post by Xudo » Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:34 am

In some other thread Mativh proposed another option to limit high level enchants for low levels. Quote with some context.
Mativh wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:16 pm
Noshu wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:36 am
Xudo wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 6:09 am
Are you ready to spend ~400 gold on each bracket to enchant your character to pvp in rated arenas?
Your main opponents on high ratings will be twinks enchanted like they are going to naxx.
Well it would be fun for the twink brackets though
That is why high level enchants should either be restricted to high level items while lower levels would get a lesser xyz equivalent of those or new low level enchants... or enchants should be weakened if used by a lower level player, similarly how spell power coefficient loses 3% potency every level below 20.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:34 am

Rugged armor kit with ilevel 35 don't actually limit anything now https://github.com/slowtorta/turtlewow- ... ssues/5002

Updated first post, added other possible solutions. Added link to github ticket about Rugged Armor Kit.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Hyrag
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Hyrag » Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:51 pm

This change will improve market of low level enchantment reagents and services. Currently noone is offering low level enchants. Noone needs that enchants either. People level enchanting by enchanting single item over and over.
this points is super valid
enchant now is just a "high lvl" profession that everyone skips at leveling

Aubreykun
Posts: 23

Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Aubreykun » Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:06 am

Highly disagree, and I think that what blizz did by introducing level restrictions on enchants later was a massive mistake. Most twink gear is already unobtainable by someone purely in-bracket, as it requires assistance from other characters to complete quests that have levels way higher than their minimum to accept, massive amounts of gold to buy BoE dungeon/world drop items, grinding engineering, and having the ability to tag along a dungeon way below the mob level to get BoP loot. This is not in the "casual player" zone. If you want to do PvP while levelling, WPvP is right there. There is plenty of opportunity to rank up as you go.

The enchants are no different, and in clamping down on them would still leave immense power differences due to those other items, causing their costs to inflate.

It solves nothing while ruining the vanilla flair. Leave it as it is.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:49 am

Aubreykun wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 1:06 am
Highly disagree, and I think that what blizz did by introducing level restrictions on enchants later was a massive mistake. Most twink gear is already unobtainable by someone purely in-bracket, as it requires assistance from other characters to complete quests that have levels way higher than their minimum to accept, massive amounts of gold to buy BoE dungeon/world drop items, grinding engineering, and having the ability to tag along a dungeon way below the mob level to get BoP loot. This is not in the "casual player" zone. If you want to do PvP while levelling, WPvP is right there. There is plenty of opportunity to rank up as you go.

The enchants are no different, and in clamping down on them would still leave immense power differences due to those other items, causing their costs to inflate.

It solves nothing while ruining the vanilla flair. Leave it as it is.
The fact that there are other difficulties in acquiring best in slot items doesn't mean that enchants should require 60 level character to obtain. Difficulties in obtaining gear should remain. It is hard, but possible being in-bracket. I get almost all my gear for 19 lvl twink without leveling donor character.

Only reason why I made donor character is gold for enchants. They cost a lot because all reagents come from lvl 50-60. I don't mind if enchants for lvl 19 would require reagents for lvl 30. But high end enchants are too much.
Best in slot buyable items are very affordable too, thanks for Turtle team for fighting out goldselling and inflation control.
Thorbia's Gauntlets https://www.wowauctions.net/auctionHous ... lets-12994
Minimum buyout 10-14 gold.
Assasin's blade https://www.wowauctions.net/auctionHous ... blade-1935
Minimym buyout 17-30 gold.
Staff of the Blessed Seer https://www.wowauctions.net/auctionHous ... -seer-2271
Minimum buyout 16-20 gold.

Leveling engineering is not a problem at all. Just get your mining pick and run around gathering stuff. You will probably buy Heavy Stone and Silver Bar for grenades. Though it is cheap too. Even if you want to dig it with donor character, you only need lvl 25-30.
Silver Bar https://www.wowauctions.net/auctionHous ... r-bar-2842
Minimum buyout 3s/item

Gear from dungeons can be aquired just by doing dungeons. SFK is exception, but you need it only for quests.
To obtain gear from quests like Runic Darkblade you need help of buddy of level 50. Elite gnomes are hard. I did that quest just by accompanying other player who did it for his twink. Runic Darkblade is not even BiS as of patch 1.17.0.
Same for SFK/BFD quests. You need only 1 run there to get the quest.
In BFD you can probably corpse-run on your own.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Aubreykun
Posts: 23

Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Aubreykun » Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:06 pm

Xudo wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:49 am
[...]
The fact that there are other difficulties in acquiring best in slot items doesn't mean that enchants should require 60 level character to obtain. Difficulties in obtaining gear should remain. It is hard, but possible being in-bracket. I get almost all my gear for 19 lvl twink without leveling donor character.
[...]
Your reply to me now gets me to understand your motivation. You are stating you want to make a twink character without needing lots of grinding or having to fund it via an alt, while others read more like "I don't like going into 10-19/20-29/30-39 WSG and getting beaten to a pulp by twinked out characters."

You are not a "casual player." The amount of effort you went through for that is way above what most people do, and way above what people with 60s gearing their alts do. This isn't just for level 19s, but for 1, 29, 39. To my understanding, twink characters have always been alts someone made. You need game knowledge in order to even make one, it's not really something someone does as their first character, nor should it be. I don't think that WSG being full of high powered twink alts is a bad thing, as it both creates a unique experience and keeps people doing PvP in world.
Xudo wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:49 am
Best in slot buyable items are very affordable too, thanks for Turtle team for fighting out goldselling and inflation control.
[...]
I was pointing out that the market would shift if they became the only way to power up your twink character. Part of the low price of BoE blues is not the lack of gold selling but the high pop of the server, but also that the demand isn't as great as enchants.
Xudo wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:49 am
Leveling engineering is not a problem at all. Just get your mining pick and run around gathering stuff. You will probably buy Heavy Stone and Silver Bar for grenades. Though it is cheap too. Even if you want to dig it with donor character, you only need lvl 25-30.
[...]
The same could be said for gold. Grind value-drop mobs and use the AH. With your value-mobs and mined minerals to get some money, then buy things, make them into more valuable ones, resell. It's doable at 19.
This is me pointing out that the distinction you made is not a real one. The amount of effort to max your engi with your XP paused at 19 (or 29, or 39) is pretty high. It's all grinding.
Xudo wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:49 am
Gear from dungeons can be aquired just by doing dungeons. SFK is exception, but you need it only for quests.
To obtain gear from quests like Runic Darkblade you need help of buddy of level 50. Elite gnomes are hard. I did that quest just by accompanying other player who did it for his twink. Runic Darkblade is not even BiS as of patch 1.17.0.
Same for SFK/BFD quests. You need only 1 run there to get the quest.
In BFD you can probably corpse-run on your own.
You also need level 60 assistance for obtaining insane items like the Furbolg Medicine Pouch or Arena Grand Master. In addition, pausing XP was not a thing for the first several expansions of blizz WoW, so you needed the high level assistance to not only kill hard mobs for your level, but also to leech your XP away in order to not accidentally level to 20/30/40 by accident while trying to get your Blackened Defias Armor or other drops. The ability to pause we have is a convenience, and I don't think trying to "rebalance twinking" around it is smart.

The "needing assistance" requirement is also a good thing because it means you must interact with others. Why should a level 50+ take time out of his day to help you? You have to offer something in return, which means you need to provide something a level 50+ wants. Or go through the levelling process yourself via multiboxing (something that also didn't happen often on the sub-based blizz servers!), which - again - requires you interact with people because you're playing the game as a whole.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:22 am

Aubreykun wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:06 pm
...
First of all, my goal is to let normal levelers to be competitive in low level PvP.
As you probably noticed, now it takes a lot of effort to be prepared for 10-19 while being in-bracket.
I made my character as an example of it.
Most of this effort is in trivial gold farming to get overpowered for 19 lvl enchants.
I don't want to eliminate farming at all, I don't want to trivialize preparation for PvP too much.
Nerfing enchants is essential baseline to let normal levelers to be competitive.
If there will be influx of players on the bracket and prices on BiS BoE items rise, it will be fine. You don't fill every slot via AH.

Right now, to be competitive, you need best items and best enchants.
For example you twink as priest and your BiS is Staff of the Blessed Seer (+24 healing) and +55 healing enchant.
You won't pick Crescent Staff (quest from WC with stats) to enchant it with +55 healing power. It will be a waste of enchant.
Now it is all-or-nothing.
Imagine that +55 healing power will be unavailable and your best weapon enchant would be +3 intellect.
You will be perfectly fine with Crescent Staff with +3 intellect on it.
It will be worse than Staff of the Blessed Seer, but you still be competitive enough with your lesser option.

I assume you had a point like "you anyway need help and gold, why change something?". The difference is in amounts.
Regular levelers won't grind 400-600 gold, but 20-50 gold is very possible.

Ability to stop xp is one of the essential features which made it possible to twink being in-bracket.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Aubreykun
Posts: 23

Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Aubreykun » Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:15 am

Xudo wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:22 am
Aubreykun wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:06 pm
...
First of all, my goal is to let normal levelers to be competitive in low level PvP.
As you probably noticed, now it takes a lot of effort to be prepared for 10-19 while being in-bracket.
I made my character as an example of it.
Most of this effort is in trivial gold farming to get overpowered for 19 lvl enchants.
I don't want to eliminate farming at all, I don't want to trivialize preparation for PvP too much.
Nerfing enchants is essential baseline to let normal levelers to be competitive.
If there will be influx of players on the bracket and prices on BiS BoE items rise, it will be fine. You don't fill every slot via AH.

Right now, to be competitive, you need best items and best enchants.
For example you twink as priest and your BiS is Staff of the Blessed Seer (+24 healing) and +55 healing enchant.
You won't pick Crescent Staff (quest from WC with stats) to enchant it with +55 healing power. It will be a waste of enchant.
Now it is all-or-nothing.
Imagine that +55 healing power will be unavailable and your best weapon enchant would be +3 intellect.
You will be perfectly fine with Crescent Staff with +3 intellect on it.
It will be worse than Staff of the Blessed Seer, but you still be competitive enough with your lesser option.

I assume you had a point like "you anyway need help and gold, why change something?". The difference is in amounts.
Regular levelers won't grind 400-600 gold, but 20-50 gold is very possible.

Ability to stop xp is one of the essential features which made it possible to twink being in-bracket.
OK. I don't think normal levellers "should be competitive" in BGs.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:11 am

Aubreykun wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:15 am
OK. I don't think normal levellers "should be competitive" in BGs.
They should not be equal. They should be competitive.

As an example I imagine case when one is equipped in items from yellow quests, without any tricks with boosting for red quests. He didn't manage to get all BiSes from dungeons and AH, but managed to level engineering to 150, found crafters and bought second-grade items to fill the gaps.
Example of typical leveler horde rogue:
head Flying Tiger Goggles 27 armor 4 stamina 4 spirit
neck - missing
shoulders - Reinforced woolen shoulders 29 armor 4 stamina 4 spirit
back - Barkeeper's Cloak 16 armor 3 stamina
chest - Camouflaged Tunic 81 armor 6 sta 2 agi
wrist - Whispering Cuffs 37 armor +4 agi +3 sta
gloves - Kodo Hide Gloves 59 armor +2 str +1 sta
waist - Murloc Scale Belt 42 armor +3 agi +2 str
legs - Dark Leather Pants 72 armor +8 agi
boots - Dark Leather Boots 53 armor +5 agi
ring 1 - Ring of the Moon +1 str +3 sta
ring 2 - Ring of Scorn -3 spi +4 sta
trinket 1 - Spiritual Feather +1 spi +2hp5
trinket 2 - Tazan's Tusk +4 attack power
main hand - Big Bronze Knife 10.0 DPS +3 sta.
off hand - Big Bronze Knife 10.0 DPS +3 sta.

Total
416 armor, 34 stamina, 9 spirit, 22 agility, 5 strength, 4 attack power

If he decides to prepare a little bit and assist to some red quests, which are doable with partner of level 30. I mean don't require massive boost like killing Arugal in SFK or elite dwarves in Hillsbrad.
Example of such (horde) rogue:
head Green Tinted Goggles 35 armor 8 stamina 7 spirit. no enchant
neck - missing
shoulders - Reinforced woolen shoulders 29 armor 4 stamina 4 spirit. no enchant
back - Spritekin Cloak 20 armor 4 agility 3 stamina
chest - Dry Moss Tunic 86 armor 8 stamina 2 agility. enchanted with 3 stamina and 24 armor
wrist - Whispering Cuffs 37 armor +4 agi +3 sta. enchanted with 5 stamina
gloves - Gloves of the Moon 48 armor +3 sta +3 agi. enchanted with 3 stamina and 24 armor
waist - Beastmaster's Girdle 51 armor +5 sta +5 agi. enchanted with 2 stamina
legs - Dark Leather Pants 72 armor +8 agi. enchanted with 3 stamina and 24 armor
boots - Draftsman Boots 61 armor +5 str +5 sta. enchanted with minor speed (because anything else is useless)
ring 1 - Circlet of Durotar +7 Agility, +1 Stamina, +2 Spirit
ring 2 - Ring of Scorn -3 spi +4 sta
trinket 1 - Spiritual Feather +1 spi +2hp5
trinket 2 - Tazan's Tusk +4 attack power
main hand - Pearl-handled Dagger 11.5 DPS +2 agi +2 sta. enchanted with +2 damage
off hand - Pearl-handled Dagger 11.5 DPS +2 agi +2 sta. enchanted with +2 damage
ranged weapon - irrelevant. no bow with stats

Total stats from equipment:
439 armor, 48 stamina, 11 spirit, 42 agility, 2hp5, 4 attack power
add to this amount 16 stamina and 72 armor, minor speed and 2x2 damage to melee damage from simple enchants

In contrast I add here horde rogue in full bis and same enchants.
head - Speedy Racer Goggles 27 armor 14 agi 14 int
neck - Scout's Medallion 6 agi 2 sta
shoulders - Reinforced woolen shoulders 29 armor 4 stamina 4 spirit
back - Sentry Cloak 21 armor +5 sta +4 agi
chest - Blackened Defias Armor 92 armor +11 sta +3 agi +4 str
wrist - Whispering Cuffs 37 armor +4 agi +3 sta
gloves - Scouting Gloves 51 armor +4 sta +4 agi
waist - Deviate Scale Belt 51 armor +6 sta +5 agi +3 spi
legs - Leggings of the Fang 79 armor +5 str +4 sta +9 agi
feet - Feet of the Lynx 63 armor +8 agi +3 str
ring 1 - Circlet of Durotar +7 Agility, +1 Stamina, +2 Spirit
ring 2 - Seal of Sylvanas +8 sta +3 str.
trinket 1 - Arena Grand Master +1% to dodge
trinket 2 - Tazan's Tusk +4 attack power. TWoW item. (in fact it will be Insignia of the Horde, but I maximize stats here)
main hand - Assassin's Blade 15.5 DPS +4 agi +3 str.
off hand - Assassin's Blade 15.5 DPS +4 agi +3 str.
ranged weapon - irrelevant

Total stats from equipment:
450 armor, 48 stamina, 9 spirit, 72 agility 20 strength, 14 intellect, 4 attack power 1% dodge

Without enchants, twink has same survivability, but much higher damage output.

If you dedicate some time, you will be better than someone who just joined. If you dedicate a lot, then you even more better with special buttons like second life with Furbolg pouch, arena trinket.
With better gear you get more power, but not more survivability.
The fact is you won't be 3-4 times more powerful like it is now.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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