Makes Bombs Usable by Non-Engineers

[Gladeshadow]

Like the title says, but a bit more nuanced and with reasoning.

Engineering can make a lot of items that ought to be usable by non-engineers. Starting off with the simplest to justify, there are goggles. These make no sense to be bound to engineers. Talking this one over with people in game, they agreed. Now the perhaps more contentious part: making most engineer items usable by those without the engineering skill. There are a few reasons to do this:

1. Opens up gameplay, particularly pvp
Currently, the ideal profession for any pvper is engineering. This is because the other professions don't have professions bound consumables, trinkets, or equipment that comes close to anything engineering offers. Another profession might have something to offer, but in that case it will be some crafting profession and engineering that will be the top choices. This restricts gameplay by making other professions not ideal - I've even seen retail Classic servers where pvp guilds require engineering. This isn't a pvp server, but pvp guilds doing battlegrounds are pvpers. The other professions are all worse than engineering for pvp currently.
In pve, this change would also open up gameplay. Alchemists trade potions, enchanters offer enchantments, blacksmiths craft equipment for others, etc. Engineering is the most selfish profession since it can offer so little to others. It would be nice for it to be able to trade as well so that others could trade for items such as goggles or bombs. That creates a more lively economy and also allows non-engineers to enjoy many of the benefits of engineers, similar to how other professions work.

2. Lore and realism-wise, it makes sense
This was more contentious when I offered the idea up to player discussion, but also helped me strengthen reasoning for why it makes sense that others should be able to use bombs and many other engineer crafted items. For example, it was posited that bombs and some other items crafted by engineers would require engineers to use them. Realism wise, this is untrue. In real life, engineers may be the ones making bombs, but more often than not it is others who actually use them. Adding to why it is even more justified in game, we as characters in game are mercenaries. Regardless of how a person may choose to roleplay, we are cheap and disposable soldiers to our factions (someone in game once asked why the Argent Dawn wasn't doing more active fighting and the reason is because they can hire us for a pittance while not putting their standing forces in harm's way). As mercenaries, we are know how to fight and use weapons of war, which can be expanded to include bombs and certain engineering trinkets and items - parachutes are mostly used by non-engineers, regardless of what the parachute cloak in game may suggest! Which is to say, engineers make items while it is primarily others who use them. And the same is true of other professions like tailors, alchemists (chemists), blacksmiths, and leather workers.

3. It opens up gameplay rather than restricting it, unlike the alternative
The alternative being to say that more recipes should be created for other crafting professions that are limited to that profession only. For example, making certain potions only usable by alchemists. Or creating certain trinkets limited to alchemists only like was done in TBC. And doing similar with other professions. While this would make other professions more viable, it would ultimately restrict rather and create more freedom. And freedom is a good thing.

Ultimately, my ask isn't to make *every* engineering item usable by those of other professions. But having most be usable by them would open things up. I think it's great if every profession would have a few items only usable by members of that profession, but such should be a minority and not a majority - which is true in game of professions other than engineering.

[Xudo]

It is perfectly okay to have selfish profession with lots of items usable only by engineers. Thats the point. And I would like to keep it.

[Geojak]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2617&p=23639&hilit=Field#p23639

Almost identical suggestion from last January, 10 months ago

[Gladeshadow]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2617&p=23639&hilit=Field#p23639

Almost identical suggestion from last January, 10 months ago

Nice! Glad others feel similarly.

[Gladeshadow]

It is perfectly okay to have selfish profession with lots of items usable only by engineers. Thats the point. And I would like to keep it.

Whether you like it or not is beside the point. The point is that, in an ideal world for many players, they would drop other skills for engineering. Which leaves only engineers at the top. And this is precisely what happens. It leads to a lack of diversity in what are considered viable professions at the high end (particularly for pvp) which is ironic since engineering requires a lot of components from other professions. Professions that are objectively inferior in pvp and some pve but necessary. Which in turn predictably results in alts whose main purpose is to support the engineer rather than play the game. That's not good design by any metric.

[Gantulga]

You do not make any money with engineering though, much unlike with other professions.

[Geojak]

This would change if others could use but not make grenades.

Should alchemie Elixier be only usable by alchemist?
It does make sense that only engineer know to trough grenades.

Do soldiers know how to build grenades? Maybe... but they all know how to use em.

Make grenades in wow realistic. Lift the engine restriction. Make engineering not mandatory for serous pvpee

[Ugoboom]

You do not make any money with engineering though, much unlike with other professions.

blacksmithing also makes 0 money, and also grants 0 player power. this is not a good argument, the vanilla design is completely broken.

Ideally, no profession should grant player power. At best, it should cheapen the user's cost or ease the farming of X player power that is otherwise obtainable. Like they could make sapper charges bind on pickup, but also the crystal charge from ungoro should be exaclty the same damage and utility, for people who dont want to go goblin engineering. Rocket helm vs uldaman dwarf rocket helm. Hateforge net vs gnome engi net.

This is how the design should be, otherwise you get the dumb 1.12 meta where every single person in a 40man raid, and every single person in pvp, needs to roll engi or else they are trolling themselves reducing their own player power for no gain other than RP. and RP is based, RPing shouldnt hurt your gameplay viability

[Talrassan]

I agree wholeheartedly, there's really nothing left to add that OP hasn't adressed. The status quo on this only benefits zealous engineering enthusiasts but actively hurts the harmony of roleplaying and playing the game.

[Akarui]

no thanks. it make additional payable spell with stun effect for all. What next? rogues poison for all?. Dynamite - ok. Bombs and grenades - no

[Thanojan]

I like the spirit of the idea, but it would result in too significant a change to the game. A better argument could be made for simply adding some more recipes which can be used by non-engineers. For example, more levels of dynamite-type items.

But for the sake of fun; lets say we go with the original idea. All Engineering items can be used by non-engineers. But also tie the chance of malfunction to the engineering skill. Non-Engineers have the greatest chance of having the bomb go off in their face, or for the teleporter to send them to the wrong location.

[Ugoboom]

I like the spirit of the idea, but it would result in too significant a change to the game. A better argument could be made for simply adding some more recipes which can be used by non-engineers. For example, more levels of dynamite-type items.

But for the sake of fun; lets say we go with the original idea. All Engineering items can be used by non-engineers. But also tie the chance of malfunction to the engineering skill. Non-Engineers have the greatest chance of having the bomb go off in their face, or for the teleporter to send them to the wrong location.

this still makes engineering = player power. this is dumb, no profession should grant player power like engi does.

the fix instead is to add alternatives non engis can use, that are functionally the same, share CD and all. Again, you can make these 2 or 3x as expensive, or more of a hassle to farm, make them bop.... whatever. As long as its the same power to PVP without engi as it is currently, the issue is solved.

[Gladeshadow]

no thanks. it make additional payable spell with stun effect for all. What next? rogues poison for all?. Dynamite - ok. Bombs and grenades - no

It seems you’re confusing class with professions. Only rogues can use poisons. Everyone can use sharpening stones made by a blacksmith.

[Bainville]

Have to disagree on this.

1) Engineering provide already a lot of utility for the player, both in pve and pvp scenarii. We don't want to ALSO make it a moneymaker profession by allowing the sell of explosives to non-engineer (which will be in very high demand since it's usefull in both pve, pvp and solo content).

2) "Realism wise", it does not make sense. Explosives are dangerous and people who manipulate/use them IRL are trained to do so. You don't give explosive to any person demanding it and they are highly scrutinized by authorities to prevent misuse/accidents.

Yes, you don't need to be an engineer IRL to use them but you still go through a training. Also, it's heavily implied in the game that engineer know how to both craft and use explosive (with all the differents kind they craft etc)

[Ugoboom]

1) Engineering provide already a lot of utility for the player, both in pve and pvp scenarii. We don't want to ALSO make it a moneymaker profession by allowing the sell of explosives to non-engineer (which will be in very high demand since it's usefull in both pve, pvp and solo content).

when engineering's unique player power features have their exclusivity removed, engineering no longer provides that utility. This is good. The idea is that it would solely become a moneymaker, just like all other professions, and that no profession would grant player power.

Again, theres already prescedent in the game for this: ez-throw dynamite. Basically just add a tradable ez-throw sapper and ez-throw iron grenade. they dont even have to be as cheap as the engi-only versions, just that the player power is available to anyone seeking it (without trashing their preferred RP style professions)

does this not make sense to you?

[Xudo]

does this not make sense to you?

It doesn't make any sense. #nochanges to engineering.

[Ugoboom]

alright then cool, we're at an agreement that we have an argument and you dont. simple as

[Bainville]

1) Engineering provide already a lot of utility for the player, both in pve and pvp scenarii. We don't want to ALSO make it a moneymaker profession by allowing the sell of explosives to non-engineer (which will be in very high demand since it's usefull in both pve, pvp and solo content).

when engineering's unique player power features have their exclusivity removed, engineering no longer provides that utility. This is good. The idea is that it would solely become a moneymaker, just like all other professions, and that no profession would grant player power.

Again, theres already prescedent in the game for this: ez-throw dynamite. Basically just add a tradable ez-throw sapper and ez-throw iron grenade. they dont even have to be as cheap as the engi-only versions, just that the player power is available to anyone seeking it (without trashing their preferred RP style professions)

does this not make sense to you?

We are talking only about bombs here. Engineer still provide incredible gadget like rocket boots, pvp helmet, craftable ammo for hunters, trinkets, MCP recharge, teleportation devices. That utilty will still be there if we make bomb sellable, so yeah. It will cumulate utility in pve and pvp + now it's a good money maker.

Also, yeah it doesn't make sense to me. i'd even say it strongly reinforce my position : "EZ-throw" dynamite, as the name suggest, is an explosive device simplified to the extreme (as in, light up the fuse and throw it away from you. Works everytime, 50% of the time). The fact that they chose to name "EZ-throw" an explosive device non-engi can use, imply that the other explosives are too complex for non-engineer.

Case close

[Gladeshadow]

Status quo isn’t case closed.

I am an engineer in game an I know it’s ridiculous that a simple profession change would change my gameplay so strongly and in a way unlike any other profession. For example, I play a rogue. I can easily kidney shot a foe and then drop a bomb to lengthen how long my foe is cc’d and do damage. I’d literally lose out if I were something like an alchemist or leatherworker since those have no real utility on a main - only to provide mains with equipment and consumables. That restrictive and more simply isn’t right. If there was an equitable reason to not do this change, I would sincerely love to hear it. If the reason is you like things as they are, that’s not grounds for a change that would make profession gameplay less restrictive.

[Akarui]

It seems you’re confusing class with professions. Only rogues can use poisons. Everyone can use sharpening stones made by a blacksmith.

it seems you`re dont undertand aftermath. U suggest AOE stun for all.

[Gladeshadow]

It seems you’re confusing class with professions. Only rogues can use poisons. Everyone can use sharpening stones made by a blacksmith.

it seems you`re dont undertand aftermath. U suggest AOE stun for all.

I’m not being cheeky. If everyone were an engineer, and as some are in dedicated guilds, then they indeed do all have aoe stun as far as bombs go. I’m talking about making engineering non-mandatory. Again, if you genuinely have something that would make it non-mandatory, please offer that rather than try to make this a contest.

[Xudo]

You not only suggest AoE stun for all. You suggest changing basic game mechanics, which could have a lot of balance consequences. And you don't analyze those consequences.
You repeadetly state "engineering should not be mandatory for bombs" but that is not an argument. It is proposal.

It seems that you were taken down by some engineer with grenade and become disappointed.
Bad news. When everyone get grenade, the number of people which take you down will only increase. And grenade probably wont help you personally.

[Gladeshadow]

You not only suggest AoE stun for all. You suggest changing basic game mechanics, which could have a lot of balance consequences. And you don't analyze those consequences.
You repeadetly state "engineering should not be mandatory for bombs" but that is not an argument. It is proposal.

It seems that you were taken down by some engineer with grenade and become disappointed.
Bad news. When everyone get grenade, the number of people which take you down will only increase. And grenade probably wont help you personally.

I wasn’t taken down by some engineer. It’s rather as I wrote, that I think it’s unfortunate that I myself am compelled by the design of the game to take engineering when doing anything competitive. Please don’t imagine your own scenarios or project your own personal history upon the proposal. I personally always take engineering because it is such a must. You say I haven’t thought of the consequences when I have. Both a fairer PvP and PvE. Indeed, it’s you who imply only PvP scenarios and haven’t considered PvE. Is there a drawback to a warrior who has leveled blacksmithing being able to trade for and use bombs as well? The closest I’ve heard is that the economy would change, which isn’t even necessarily a drawback as other things change as well.

[Xudo]

Why do you want to rework whole engineering if you can propose new recipes for EZ-throw bombs?

That way you keep existing flavour of engineering and supply other professions with usable bombs.

[Gladeshadow]

That would accomplish the same thing. I'm not opposed to that, which is what Ugoboom suggested.

[Akarui]

It seems you’re confusing class with professions. Only rogues can use poisons. Everyone can use sharpening stones made by a blacksmith.

it seems you`re dont undertand aftermath. U suggest AOE stun for all.

I’m not being cheeky. If everyone were an engineer, and as some are in dedicated guilds, then they indeed do all have aoe stun as far as bombs go. I’m talking about making engineering non-mandatory. Again, if you genuinely have something that would make it non-mandatory, please offer that rather than try to make this a contest.

Another versions of EZ-Dynamite - ok. Bombs - not

[Xudo]

That would accomplish the same thing. I'm not opposed to that, which is what Ugoboom suggested.

Is it really enough to add EZ-bombs to accomplish the goal of your thread?

[Geojak]

If it doesn't stun then no, it's not enough to alleviate the issue of engineering being mandatory for anyone wanting to pvp without a hand tied to their back because of wrong proffesions choice.

In my view, twow is shut making an experocne thaz is rp and causal friendly. That is, changing the overly sweaty min maxing part of the game.

Engineering being mandatory for anyone serous about this game, is the oppoosti of the turtle wow experience.

IF you don't use engineering on your main, you are playing this game wrong

[Xudo]

Even if you give everyone consumable stun, all other things will be there.
For example spell reflectors, rocket boots, goggles, Invisibility trinket, recombobulators.
People who is "serious" about the PvP part of the game will anyway pick engineering.

I honestly don't know what is wrong in leveling engineering for PvP. This is like "sky is blue and water is wet". Leveling engineering is not hard nor expensive. Bomb recipes are not rare. They can be learned at trainer. Is it possible to every class to level engineering to use gadgets.
People who is min/maxing will always find optimal build and spec to keep their best possible state.

If you wan't rp with bombs you can use EZ-dynamite and pretend it is bomb. You don't need any gameplay change to roleplay. RP is done in chat and probably voice, not with spells and skills.

[Geojak]

90% of engineers utility comes from usable bombs. The trinkets and stuff are nice but they need to be equipped, CD time. Hard to setup. Grenades are the real deal.

IF they just add a 1 sec stun to ezro 1 and 2:sec stun to ezro 2 just like iron grenades, I guess that woild be OK too, since noone uses ezro dynamics because useless tiny dmg and no cc.

That and a ezro version of sapper and I would be happy

[Talrassan]

It seems you’re confusing class with professions. Only rogues can use poisons. Everyone can use sharpening stones made by a blacksmith.

it seems you`re dont undertand aftermath. U suggest AOE stun for all.

It already is for all. Nothing is stopping anyone from accessing the AOE stun, and anyone who cares about PvP or efficiency already is an engineer.

[Talrassan]

[...]

I honestly don't know what is wrong in leveling engineering for PvP. This is like "sky is blue and water is wet". Leveling engineering is not hard nor expensive. Bomb recipes are not rare. They can be learned at trainer. Is it possible to every class to level engineering to use gadgets.
People who is min/maxing will always find optimal build and spec to keep their best possible state.

If you wan't rp with bombs you can use EZ-dynamite and pretend it is bomb. You don't need any gameplay change to roleplay. RP is done in chat and probably voice, not with spells and skills.

You just explained exactly why a change to make engineering tools mostly unrestricted should be perfectly fine. Anyone who thinks they need access to grenades etc. already has access to them and the only thing that could potentially stop someone is their desire for their character to not be an engineer.

And no, you misunderstand the RP point. Roleplaying a character includes more than typing fancy words in a chat box occasionally, and depending on what type of character you want to be, picking engineering may conflict with that vision.
PvP is almost completely separate from roleplaying contexts, and since engineering is sadly mandatory for PvP in vanilla, I'm sure you can see how this conflicts with people's ability to decide that they don't want their, say, elf mage to be some gnome loving tinkerer if they also happen to enjoy PvP.

[Markuis]

Add an Ez-Thro version of the sapper charge, with reduced damage and stun duration, plus increased cd. Maybe even more material costly. And if that would make engi a money making prof then add some vendors that sell that item for some amount of gold, that way it keeps the prices on the AH with some benefit margin but in check with the vendor prices. Bonus if it requires mats from other profs, that would boost those other professions in the process.

Now, two things to point out:
-This will change the meta, every pvp fight will have at least one bomb for each participant (depends on the bomb's cd). To balance this, the cast time could be increased, that way it wouldn't be such a viable option (you will use it if it's 1-2 secs cast time, but maybe not if it's 3-4 secs).
-The fact that engi provides so much while other profs don't should also be revised. There should be some specific items on other professions too.

[Xudo]

It already is for all. Nothing is stopping anyone from accessing the AOE stun, and anyone who cares about PvP or efficiency already is an engineer.

So everyone are happy. Why should we change it?
If you want PvP, you pick engineering. It allows you to use stun.
If you don't care about PvP, you don't really need AoE stun and can pick some other profession.

AoE stun for engineers is a intentional blizz design. It is not design gap like high level enchants for low level players.
Blizz didn't even change this design in later patches.
You need some other arguments and analytics besides "everyone willing already use bombs, lets remove this limitation altogether".

And no, you misunderstand the RP point. Roleplaying a character includes more than typing fancy words in a chat box occasionally, and depending on what type of character you want to be, picking engineering may conflict with that vision.
PvP is almost completely separate from roleplaying contexts, and since engineering is sadly mandatory for PvP in vanilla, I'm sure you can see how this conflicts with people's ability to decide that they don't want their, say, elf mage to be some gnome loving tinkerer if they also happen to enjoy PvP.

Thats just nonsense. You propose to change PvP balance for RP reasons for the vision of SPECIAL individuals. So they don't need to level engineering and be able to use bombs. For what?
RP is not an argument in this matter.


#nochanges to engineering bombs

[Keegus]

I'd say if this were to happen, there'd need to be a negative effect involved with using the bombs without having engineering itself. What you're asking for is pretty much all of the benefits of engineering while still being allowed to have a free crafting slot that can go to something else that either generates you money or increases your personal power over those who DO dedicate themselves to engineering, like enchanting.

So something like having a 50% chance to stun the user on top of the damage and stun to those in the target location would be absolutely necessary to balance it out.