Give reason to gear/bring a moonkin to raid

[Alrighty2]

Druid as the least wanted class in vanilla. there are very few reasons to bring a druid healer/tank in raid already. there are 2 ways to buff hybrid classes (increase personal damage or bring unique raid buffs), and shadow priest changes in 1.16 was a great success(bring unique mana regen to the group while buffing warlocks). and since the mana regen is tight up to shadow priest's damage that also adds more reason to gear them. it successfully increases the number of shadow priests will be taking to raid from 0-1 to 1 -2. Moonkin would need similar changes in order for end-game raid groups (aq40/naxx/new raid) to take them. making their crit aura scale with moonkin's crit (usually u can reach around 25% crit with endgame gear, that s if you give up spell hits and spell power). so a 25% -30% of Moonkin's crit become the value of the party crit aura would for sure increase moonkin raid spot from 0 to 2+. add haste to the aura or increase moonkin's personal dps by 50-60% also quite good for fixing moonkin issues. let me know what you think

[Shamma]

I raided Classic from start to finish. We had no issue having a Cat DPS, a Moonkin and a Resto (3 druids in the raid) all the way up to AQ40 for a raid roster of 36-38 ppl. We kept our guild small and a permanent roster. It was for Naxx, where we had the Druid DPS switch to Resto, because we would not have 12 healers otherwise and Naxx with less than 12 healers was not going to happen.

I disagree with the premise!

Vanilla Raids until Naxx are easy. You do not need 40 ppl and the you can bring suboptimal classes!

[Alrighty2]

I raided Classic from start to finish. We had no issue having a Cat DPS, a Moonkin and a Resto (3 druids in the raid) all the way up to AQ40 for a raid roster of 36-38 ppl. We kept our guild small and a permanent roster. It was for Naxx, where we had the Druid DPS switch to Resto, because we would not have 12 healers otherwise and Naxx with less than 12 healers was not going to happen.

I disagree with the premise!

Vanilla Raids until Naxx are easy. You do not need 40 ppl and the you can bring suboptimal classes!

that s classic. have you been in one of the 3-4 groups/guilds that raid aq40 and naxx weekly as Moonkin? I only know 1 of them takes 1 Moonkin as token moonkin not for practical/preferment reason. people take esfan (even tho is not even best ret paladin), they take it for being charming. but those are small cases, that won't apply to most people. classic wow experience is different, at least for the raiding sense. the raiding population is smaller, and what you described is less likely to happen here.

[Xudo]

If you keep class less useful than mage, then nothing changes.
If you make class better than mages, then minmaxers abandon mages and start using this class.
That is the point of min/maxing. It is very very hard to make classes perform equally.

[Alrighty2]

If you keep class less useful than mage, then nothing changes.
If you make class better than mages, then minmaxers abandon mages and start using this class.
That is the point of min/maxing. It is very very hard to make classes perform equally.

that s why I suggest going for the provide unique buff to raid route instead of personal dps boost. mage going to want more moonkin 1 in each group for this new 5-6% crit aura

[Geojak]

I disagree with the idea of making hybrids relevant with increased support buffs.

Just let them do dmg.

A mage provides useful arcane illeext or that new arcane brilliance aura

They are not so different

[Xudo]

If you keep class less useful than mage, then nothing changes.
If you make class better than mages, then minmaxers abandon mages and start using this class.
That is the point of min/maxing. It is very very hard to make classes perform equally.

that s why I suggest going for the provide unique buff to raid route instead of personal dps boost. mage going to want more moonkin 1 in each group for this new 5-6% crit aura

What is the reason to equip moonkins in any gear then? What is the fun of playing moonkins if you are invited to raids only because you have good buff?

Later expansions solved this problem by adding "rotation". Blizz increased requirement to skill of player. So good players with any class were able to do good DPS if they know correct order of buttons. Bad players do little DPS because they press buttons in wrong order.

What exactly should do mage to perform good in classic? Spam frostbolt, right?

[Alrighty2]

If you keep class less useful than mage, then nothing changes.
If you make class better than mages, then minmaxers abandon mages and start using this class.
That is the point of min/maxing. It is very very hard to make classes perform equally.

that s why I suggest going for the provide unique buff to raid route instead of personal dps boost. mage going to want more moonkin 1 in each group for this new 5-6% crit aura

What is the reason to equip moonkins in any gear then? What is the fun of playing moonkins if you are invited to raids only because you have good buff?

Later expansions solved this problem by adding "rotation". Blizz increased requirement to skill of player. So good players with any class were able to do good DPS if they know correct order of buttons. Bad players do little DPS because they press buttons in wrong order.

What exactly should do mage to perform good in classic? Spam frostbolt, right?

did you read the post be4 u posting or just the title... the crit aura need to be scale with gear is the point.... even later expansion moonkin is not bring to pump but bring spell hit/crit/spell damage buffs/debuff + innervate + 10min cd Bres

[Ugoboom]

Big +1 to this post. With the crit aura starting at baseline 3%, and by endgame gear ending up at 6, 7, maybe 8%, your guilds now have a reason to prio any gear with crit to moonkins as it would provide a better rDPS value to the raid than giving it to one of the selfish dpser classes.

This is ideally the boon of playing a support class, that you sacrifice big numbers on your screen for being highly desired, geared quickly, and built around for the comp.

And no, people don't take moonkins to naxx here or even many aq40s, the content is just too hard with nost/LH style overtuned difficulty, and especially soon with wbuff removal, moonkins will never make it into a group unless its rDPS is addressed in ways like this.

[Bayanni]

I play a druid and I support this message

[Velite]

I raided Classic from start to finish. We had no issue having a Cat DPS, a Moonkin and a Resto (3 druids in the raid) all the way up to AQ40 for a raid roster of 36-38 ppl. We kept our guild small and a permanent roster. It was for Naxx, where we had the Druid DPS switch to Resto, because we would not have 12 healers otherwise and Naxx with less than 12 healers was not going to happen.

I disagree with the premise!

Vanilla Raids until Naxx are easy. You do not need 40 ppl and the you can bring suboptimal classes!

You're basically accepting that it's just fine to bring someone who is dead weight, gear someone who is, objectively, dead weight, because the content is not challenging. That doesn't make them good. That doesn't mean they contributed to your success.

We want these specs to be good and contribute to success. Not simply be present. Have some rewarding feeling for actually playing them apart from the "wow I'm doing it when most people aren't" which is just inherently sad that this is even a reason to play them. And I speak from experience on that. It is sad that you have players who competitively play a mage because they want to see big numbers, and then there are players who competitively play a druid to BE IN THE RAID. Very sad.

It's only when you do this that you can actually take a step further with the game and add challenge modes. As you say, the content is easy enough that you can afford dead weight, what if it isn't? Then they can't justify their existence in a meaningful way. They need redeeming qualities in that challenge mode environment to be worth bringing.

It does not suffice to let the classes work as they do now, because as Turtle WoW starts to expand endgame content, the flaws in the class design will start to show. The developers will try to justify new gear from bosses for specs that aren't being brought. Class design and Content Design is intertwined.

[Shamma]

Umm. NO! I never said any of these things. Do not put words in my mouth. Go tell our druids they were dead weight and see your puny ass get clapped!

The druid is NOT in the raid for high DPS. The druid is hybrid and MUST NEVER do the same DPS as a pure DPS class. The moonkin brings the battle rez as all druids do, buff your mages and warlocks with their aura and they are also not dead weight damage wise.

The cat can offtank on a press of a button, can jump out of form and decurse when needed and holds another rebirth. DPS is not that important, but they are not terrible at it by any means.

If bringing this utility instead of pure DPS is wrong in your eyes. DO NOT PLAY A FREAKING DRUID!

Turtle is NOT focusing on end game content. Open your eyes. This is Turtle WOW. The world is important, not raiding.

[Ugoboom]

Umm. NO! I never said any of these things. Do not put words in my mouth. Go tell our druids they were dead weight and see your puny ass get clapped!

The druid is NOT in the raid for high DPS. The druid is hybrid and MUST NEVER do the same DPS as a pure DPS class. The moonkin brings the battle rez as all druids do, buff your mages and warlocks with their aura and they are also not dead weight damage wise.

The cat can offtank on a press of a button, can jump out of form and decurse when needed and holds another rebirth. DPS is not that important, but they are not terrible at it by any means.

If bringing this utility instead of pure DPS is wrong in your eyes. DO NOT PLAY A FREAKING DRUID!

Turtle is NOT focusing on end game content. Open your eyes. This is Turtle WOW. The world is important, not raiding.

a battle rez is not free. it trashcans nonferal druids' mana, especially moonkin as you must shift out, brez then shift back into form for a large total of mana. this balances itself.
you also dont punish warlock dps as they bring soulstone (a type of brez). your notion of druid not being able to do even 90% dps of a mage/lock is based on false presumptions.

and yes, so can warriors become the tank on most fights, and for all fights with shield wall. warriors are not punished with low dps for this flexibility

so when people like you are like "nah its okay balance does like 400 dps when a mage does 900 with the same setup".... its just baffling. you really have no clue man.

>Turtle is NOT focusing on end game content
Scarlet citadel is in development, it's meant to be harder than naxx. please educate yourself, the devs absolutely consider raiding part of the game. please stop being toxic as well pretending the needs of raiders aren't important. really disrespectful to your fellow druids most of all.

[Bayanni]

Just to necro this thread again, I've run some rough numbers with my boomkin set up and overall my dps comes out to 450-500 depending on fight if I'm fully raid buffed. The crit aura to group adds a little dps that isn't directly attributed to me, but even with that I'm not going to be worth it over an equally-geared mage, warlock, or now a shadowpriest.

The recent changes added enough sustainable damage for boomkins that their mana issues are essentially solved. They'll still need to pop a major mana potion or tea for the really long fights, but otherwise are in a great spot to cast non-stop for the entire fight. The only fight I have trouble with now is C'Thun, and that's just because there's so many targets to keep trying to hit. Now the damage itself is the issue, and when/if that gets bumped boomkins will be raid viable.

The trouble will be if guilds will even bother testing them after such a buff. Almost every raid guild on the server is progression raiding and that takes pushing everyone to the limit for new gear no one has seen yet. Those guilds can't afford to use a slot on a sub-par caster unless no one else can fill the slot. The guilds that are full-clearing every raid can afford to bring boomkins but don't want to as it would slow clear times. They have their formulas and they stick to them. World buffs going away will hurt casters even more and will further disincentivize bringing boomkins. There needs to be a balancing action if this spec, which has already gotten a lot of love from gear and the class changes, to finally get to the raid-viable build it feels like the devs want it to be.