Fix Protection but very simple

[Kobiq]

There are numerous threads on "fixing" prot, but in fact people are just not realizing that it's already possible to tank up to Naxx and suggest exaggerated changes. IMHO, Warriors should still be prime vanilla tanks and Paladins and Druids should be situational raid offtanks. That being said, protection tree still looks the least prompting, especially in PVP. What I suggest to address that is:

- make Improved Devotion Aura also increase Resistance Auras by 25% (from 60 to 75)
- make Improved Hammer of Justice reduce the cooldown to 30 sec instead 45
- Ardent Defender: reduces dmg taken by the target by 10% and the paladin by 20% for 20 sec. 2 min cooldown.

Adds utility for PVP support spec as well as some nice paladin-lore-wise utility in raids.

PS.
Inb4 "nerf paladin" drama. To me it's totally fine to remove all bubles besides BoP (to preserve the iconic support mechanic) and compensate in other ways.

[Karico]

sounds good to me

[Kairion]

I have to point out that neither of these changes actually fixes a substantial problem with protection paladin.

improved Devotion aura is a garbage talent, But stronger resistence auras isn't particularly useful for a tank paladin. If a fight requires a tank with elemental resistences, thats usually taken care of by gear mostly. 15 more resistance is a drop in an ocean. Additionally redoubt is the prefered talent of choice because it's actually good.

Improved hammer of justice once again does not fix problem for Prot paladin appart from maybe stunning a mob if no taunt is available. But the spell can already be lowered to 35 seconds CD with the talent and PvP gear. (And there is a libram coming for 1.17 which shaves off another 5 seconds). That drastically buffs pvp for paladins, but doesn't really solve his weaknesses in PvE appart from giving him a strong interrupt. Something he isn't supposed to have anyway.

The current ardent defender might as well not exist. Its not good. But i don't think this rework would change that much. 20% dmg reduction for 20 seconds on a 2 min cooldown would help shore up some defenses, but it has to compete with vengeance. A talent that almost single handedly carries paladins raid threat generation.

Paladins actual problems are lack of dedicated gear and as a result, inability to get crit immune under realistic circumstances (that might change in 1.17)
Trouble sustaining mana particularly in early raid environment with blue gear.
A taunt that shares CD with one of your best threat abilities
Taunting removing your main source of manamanagement without other paladins support

[Jrobz]

I have to point out that neither of these changes actually fixes a substantial problem with protection paladin.

improved Devotion aura is a garbage talent, But stronger resistence auras isn't particularly useful for a tank paladin. If a fight requires a tank with elemental resistences, thats usually taken care of by gear mostly. 15 more resistance is a drop in an ocean. Additionally redoubt is the prefered talent of choice because it's actually good.

Improved hammer of justice once again does not fix problem for Prot paladin appart from maybe stunning a mob if no taunt is available. But the spell can already be lowered to 35 seconds CD with the talent and PvP gear. (And there is a libram coming for 1.17 which shaves off another 5 seconds). That drastically buffs pvp for paladins, but doesn't really solve his weaknesses in PvE appart from giving him a strong interrupt. Something he isn't supposed to have anyway.

The current ardent defender might as well not exist. Its not good. But i don't think this rework would change that much. 20% dmg reduction for 20 seconds on a 2 min cooldown would help shore up some defenses, but it has to compete with vengeance. A talent that almost single handedly carries paladins raid threat generation.

Paladins actual problems are lack of dedicated gear and as a result, inability to get crit immune under realistic circumstances (that might change in 1.17)
Trouble sustaining mana particularly in early raid environment with blue gear.
A taunt that shares CD with one of your best threat abilities
Taunting removing your main source of manamanagement without other paladins support

These are super valid. Again, design-wise, if Tankadins are going full DPS spec to be valid threat-wise, the Prot Tree is broken for that use case. If we're not supposed to tank reliably beyond MC, ok, I can understand that, but it seems like Prot Paladin is supposed to be made into a viable Tank spec for all of Vanilla. I think the above really rings to what I saw and think playin the class. Here are my proposed Prot changes:

viewtopic.php?t=8650&start=25

[Kobiq]

So guys the thing is TWOW emphasizes many times that it's Vanilla+, but it retains the old game base. Paladins MUST be weaker tanks than warriors. All those issues with taunting etc. are entity of the class. In fact tho, it IS POSSIBLE to successfuly tank BWL, AQ40 and maybe even something in Naxx. There are players doing that in TWOW (you will never be a proper MT tho).

My idea is to preserve the weaknesses, but make us more like a support for main tanks, also with ability to offtank boss/trash when needed. Great AOE tanking is also something. 15 resistance isn't much, but it still helps, we could say make it 50, but it wouldn't be fair towards other classes.

[Jrobz]

Kobiq, I can appreciate that for sure. I can even appreciate the more designated Niche and utility OT role for Prot in Raids. Also they may well be the best small group tank. I'm good with this. I can say this while also telling you the toolkit is still rather broken. I played and tanked on a Warrior in actual Vanilla through Naxx, and a Prot Pal through BWL on Classic. There is a reason this is one of the more tinkered classes in TWoW. I don't think a full rework of this is in order but more tuning the toolkit to drive the role and scale to gearing TWoW is adding and modding. I actually like the Taunt on JoJ idea. It's not as natural as the Warrior taunt, but shouldn't be. It also fit well into the Vanilla usage of JoJ (turn runners back around - aka hey look at me again).

I do think there should be role driven benefits to going deep into the Prot tree (or any tree for that matter) and that end talents should be spec defining (Best Vanilla example is Warrior and I think TWoW did a good job cleaning up Priest and Druid). I really hate seeing meh End Talents and the TWoW Paladin has 2 (Prot and Ret). The challenge of any reworking is to keep the classes unique in the Vanilla style but right the wrongs of classes left unfinished by Blizzard.

I think TWoW has a really good opportunity to get so many things right.

[Yakumoki]

Kobiq, I can appreciate that for sure. I can even appreciate the more designated Niche and utility OT role for Prot in Raids. Also they may well be the best small group tank. I'm good with this. I can say this while also telling you the toolkit is still rather broken. I played and tanked on a Warrior in actual Vanilla through Naxx, and a Prot Pal through BWL on Classic. There is a reason this is one of the more tinkered classes in TWoW. I don't think a full rework of this is in order but more tuning the toolkit to drive the role and scale to gearing TWoW is adding and modding. I actually like the Taunt on JoJ idea. It's not as natural as the Warrior taunt, but shouldn't be. It also fit well into the Vanilla usage of JoJ (turn runners back around - aka hey look at me again).

I do think there should be role driven benefits to going deep into the Prot tree (or any tree for that matter) and that end talents should be spec defining (Best Vanilla example is Warrior and I think TWoW did a good job cleaning up Priest and Druid). I really hate seeing meh End Talents and the TWoW Paladin has 2 (Prot and Ret). The challenge of any reworking is to keep the classes unique in the Vanilla style but right the wrongs of classes left unfinished by Blizzard.

I think TWoW has a really good opportunity to get so many things right.

I agree, pro palt and ret pal need another more powerful end talents instead of those two, i think Twow should work on prot talent fisrt, It works only on pve and wound not cause problems. Changing talent of ret pal requires great caution that may easily make ret pal overpowered in PVP like WotLK 3.0 and 3.1.

[Drubarrymooer]

- make Improved Hammer of Justice reduce the cooldown to 30 sec instead 45

It's already pretty op as is rn. That's way too short a cd for such a long stun.

[Kobiq]

- make Improved Hammer of Justice reduce the cooldown to 30 sec instead 45

It's already pretty op as is rn. That's way too short a cd for such a long stun.

Yet noone plays protection in PVP.

[Foobs]

Holy Wrath
Rank 1
645 mana
2 sec cast
Sends bolts of holy power in all directions, causing 362 to 429 Holy damage to all Undead and Demon targets within 20 yds and generates additional threat to all nearby enemies.

Crusader Strike
Rank 1
25 mana
5 yd range
Instant
A high threat strike that causes 12 damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to 6 per Crusader Strike. Can be applied up to 5 times. Lasts 30 sec.

Paladins are missing an AOE instant Taunt and an acute threat generator. The amount of threat should coincide with the level and mana cost of each Crusader Strike per rank.

HS could use a little more threat generation as well but honestly, its proc rate compensates more than enough.

[Mativh]

Lets address the issues prot palas have by doubling down on the fact that they are a jack of all trades, master of none.
Protection Paladins have a potential to be an interesting hybrid class:

- Shield Specialization restores 4% mana instead of 2%

- New talent next to One Handed Weapon talent, with Blessing of Sanctuary as a prereq;
Sacred Vow: Whenever you heal yourself, 30% of it also heals targets affected by your Blessing of Sanctuary, this generates high threat.

- Ardent Defender rework:
When you have less than 35% health, the casting time of Holy Light and Flash of Light is decreased by 0.5 sec when used on self.

- New Ability talent, next to Ardent Defender, with Ardent Defender as prereq;
Zealous Sacrifice: turn on manually or toggle it to automatically turn on when available (like pet abilities), it becomes available when health is below 35% and switches off if health is above 35%;
Your attack power and attack speed are increased by 20%, but 20% of the physical damage you deal costs you your health (is reflected back to you), if this damage kills you, your party members gain the equivalent of 20% of your total health in the form of a damage absorb for 15 seconds.

[Healingrain]

- make Improved Devotion Aura also increase Resistance Auras by 25% (from 60 to 75)

I understand this is a lackluster talent but this is a large precedent break from vanilla class design. Hunter Aspect of the Wild, Priest Prayer of Shadow Protection, Shaman totems and Paladin auras all offer 60 of their respective resistance.

[Kobiq]

- make Improved Devotion Aura also increase Resistance Auras by 25% (from 60 to 75)

I understand this is a lackluster talent but this is a large precedent break from vanilla class design. Hunter Aspect of the Wild, Priest Prayer of Shadow Protection, Shaman totems and Paladin auras all offer 60 of their respective resistance.

We could buff others to 75 in talents too.

[Fresharugula]

Lets address the issues prot palas have by doubling down on the fact that they are a jack of all trades, master of none.
Protection Paladins have a potential to be an interesting hybrid class:

- Shield Specialization restores 4% mana instead of 2%

- New talent next to One Handed Weapon talent, with Blessing of Sanctuary as a prereq;
Sacred Vow: Whenever you heal yourself, 30% of it also heals targets affected by your Blessing of Sanctuary, this generates high threat.

- Ardent Defender rework:
When you have less than 35% health, the casting time of Holy Light and Flash of Light is decreased by 0.5 sec when used on self.

- New Ability talent, next to Ardent Defender, with Ardent Defender as prereq;
Zealous Sacrifice: turn on manually or toggle it to automatically turn on when available (like pet abilities), it becomes available when health is below 35% and switches off if health is above 35%;
Your attack power and attack speed are increased by 20%, but 20% of the physical damage you deal costs you your health (is reflected back to you), if this damage kills you, your party members gain the equivalent of 20% of your total health in the form of a damage absorb for 15 seconds.

Incentivizing healing yourself while tanking is bad gameplay. You give us all your ability to defend yourself while casting.

[Calli]

It is a good idea to make more threat by self healing because it also increases the survivalability.
For example a deep prot talent like "When under the effect of holy shield you heal yourself 30% of the weapon damage you cause". I say let people to grab vengeance but let them also choose a well worth, more tanky build.

[Jrobz]

Some other ideas:

Rank7: Imp Judgement - Range increased to 30y
Rank6 (1/1) (inline with HS and Imp Judge): Imp HolyShield - reset Consecration on proc, add 2 procs, increased dmg
Rank6: One Hand Spec: 2/4/6/8/10% to all DMG and threat while Shield is equipped
Rank5: Move AD here
Rank5: Reckoning (3/3 instead of 5/5): Reset HolyStrike CD on parry/dodge/miss - only procs when wearing a shield
Rank3: Anticipation: Gain 10/20/30% of INT as SBV

If the bulk of people are going Ret to tank, then the bottom half of the Prot tree is not compelling enough.

[Jrobz]

The Prot tree has 3 significant and sad truths:

1) It has the worst end talent in TWoW
2) It has the worst talent of any tree in any class in TWoW (Imp Devo Aura)
3) It is also tied with Warrior for the 2nd worst (Anticipation)

That's rough.. lol

[Jrobz]

The act of healing, or any (non-instant) casting, disables your shield. Since the shield is more or less THE core design component of Prot, I don't see how making casting a core element keeps in the core design.

[Kobiq]

Guys let's put one thing in super honest words:

THERE ARE ALREADY PALADINS SUCCESSFULLY OFFTANKING UP TO NAXXRAMAS, SO STOP BEGGING FOR MAKING THE CLASS AS GOOD AS WARRIOR. Noone gonna treat you seriously, just learn to play better.

Nonetheless, the current prot tree is really bad, especially the final talent. What we want to achieve is to add some nice mechanics and flavour to the class rather than making it straight an OP tank. Changes need to be gentle.

And you're also forgiving about the PVP aspect. Protection paladin acting like an all around support/utility/aura carrier is a very interresting concept imo.

[Jrobz]

There are Ret Paladins Tanking, you mean. I think we can all appreciate there are significant issues to fix.

Having played both tanks in end game raiding (Warrior and Paladin), my list of recommended changes will not dethrone the Warrior from the goto MT. They simply take less DMG and do more single target threat. What it could do is shrink that gap and add some spice to the bottom of the Prot Tree that is obviously not compelling enough.

The Prot Pal is very shield/block focused. The way the mechanic works, it will not be as effective at reducing large hits as small. It's MUCH better at many small hits than few large ones. Access to +Def, Armor, Health, and Defensive Stance are all tools that ensure the Warrior is the best boss MT in Vanilla. The Itemization of Prot Pal and Toolkit will always put him behind the Warrior for this. They do have ways they excel, and offer some neat play style though. I would hope TWoW, who is trying to fix the classes left unfinished, would not be ok with a glass ceiling of T2 for the Prot spec.

[Poggo]

Dethroning warrior tanks is a moot argument, they have better offensive and defensive cds than anyone, 3 taunts, shield block gives them crit/crush immunity on most bosses simply for wearing a shield, insane single target threat, good itemization and a cozy 10% dmg reduction on top.

Moving on.

Prot pallies have had a lot of issues fixed on this server already, but it still falls short in two (vital) aspects that kind of go hand in hand, itemization and crit immunity.
You simply can't tank a lot of bosses because you risk getting one shot/combo's by breath/nuke/cleave+auto, and you can't reach def cap without wearing some truly awful gear for the spec, nor do you have survival of the fittest/shield block to deal with crits and crushes.

You could go multiple routes to tackle the above, personally I think reworking ardent defender to mitigate crits and crushing somehow and adding some pieces, perhaps a 3-5 set that is just stamina, spell power and avoidance stats, I don't know I'm no stat weight specialist

As for ardent defender as I understand it, currently it reduces all damage taken while below 35% by 25%. This causes a number of issues which generally boil down to - it will rarely actually have an impact because you're either getting killed through it or taking so low damage that it doesn't really matter that much.

If it was possible to code it like the dk talent in wotlk - will of the necropolis, which reduces the dmg taken by any attack below or that would bring you below the threshold I think that would be an option, though I'm not sure if that's enough to mitigate a crit without world buffs to beef up hp from a boss in the later and upcoming raids.

Alternatively a safer bet is taking inspiration from the druid and reducing the chance to be crit and give a % bonus to stam, or dmg reduction.

You could aim to make them able to perhaps even more reliably keep crits and crushes off the attack table through avoidance than warriors can through giving both holy shield and redoubt reliable uptime, but it seems a bit infringing on the warrior deal to me

[Jrobz]

Good feedback. Updated thoughts:

Rank7: Ardent Defender - Current but also reduces chance to be crit and crushed by %5 and starts while under 50% health
Rank6 (1/1) (inline with HS and AD): Imp HolyShield - reset Consecration on proc, add 2 procs, increased dmg and threat
Rank6: One Hand Spec: 2/4/6/8/10% to all DMG and threat while Shield is equipped
Rank5: Reckoning (3/3 instead of 5/5): +1/2/3% Parry - reset HolyStrike CD on parry - only procs when wearing a shield
Rank4: Imp SoJ: Current + SoJ proc Interrupt on stun resist/immune
Rank3: Anticipation: Gain 5/10/15% of INT as SBV

I still like the idea of a quest chain for a Libram that has an on use: 30s CD - 30y - Increases Holy DMG taken by target by 5%

This will be a GOTO 'pull' item for Prot.

[Casavir]

Just add 30% scaling from AP to SP
This will fix:
1. Itemization
2. DPS
3. Threat
4. Survivability
5. Lore

[Calli]

Just add 30% scaling from AP to SP
This will fix:
1. Itemization
2. DPS
3. Threat
4. Survivability
5. Lore

How does that increase survivability?

[Casavir]

More Strength = More AP = More SP = More Healing = More Block

[Jrobz]

The scaling of SBV from STR is not good.. the coef would need to be massively buffed. IMO that is a good change. Both Prot War and prot Pal suffer from shield based toolkits not scaling late in game.

I know it's compelling to go to an 'easy' answer but I do not think this is that easy. Even if you do give a blanket scaling of SP from AP, you will still need to tweak coef's of many skills, and likely go re-alter a ton of gear they've already altered.