What would you like to see added, nerfed or changed to the hunter ?

[Vanga]

Hello !

With the announce of Version 2 pass on the classes. What can we expect for hunters ? It's an open discussion where we can discuss what we would like to see added/taken off or changed. Be creative or crazy, just throw ideas and let's poke holes into them ! :D

Even if you think it's not possible to implement, I think we can have a fun exchange of where we would like to see the hunter be. One thing that would have been great is to know what are the objectives of the V2 class changes : bug fixes ? new mecanic ? ideas from other expansions ? We don't really know at the moment what the team wants to achieve. Maybe if someone can clarify that point ? it would really help to give feedback and know the context of it.

I'll start with some ideas of my own, feel free to interact !

1) -Having one less bag slot is not a great feeling let's be honest, espacialy with all the items and consumes that exist Vanilla. Maybe add one slot bag for hunters or the quiver act like a totem or an idol and has its own placement in the character panel?

2) -Speaking of quivers, what about the amo pouch ? Having a 3d model of them on the side of the waist or maybe as bandolier would be great :D they need to be bouncy tho !

3) Aspects are a core mecanic of the hunter class and can be swaped around depending of the situation! In a cave or a building and you cant shoot? Wolf! Low health and in risk of dying ? Monkey! The shaman that has the totem of nature resist is dead ? Aspect of nature ! Unfortunately it comes at efty mana cost and gcd. if you didn't properly manage your mana or ran out of consumes you are stuck in a maybe inconvinient aspect.

Example : You are kiting an elite mob with aspect of sheetah ON, and for whatever reasons the mob is closing on you and you'd like to go into monkey or wolf ? Well tough luck for you ! you are out of mana and now get dazed. To remedy this problem you then need to create a cancel macro of every aspects. Not really a fan of that. having to make macros to have a core abilities worked properly or to not get punished because you didn't manage your mana properly. wich is not fun, and clunky.

My proposal would be to nulify the mana cost of every aspects and to be able to use them Off-GCD. It would make "aspect-dancing" viable and rewarding when pulled off. I think it would help more newbie players when kitting and the feel of getting stuck in an inapropriate aspect woudn't be there anymore. It would give hunters in pvp more "room" for errors too when kitting to avoid incoming damage in monkey or to deal extra damage with raptor strike in Wolf. it opens up the abilty of making a quick choice in a critical situation.

4) I have a love-hate relationship with the dead zone in Vanilla. being a sitting duck is never fun nor enjoying. I understand its presence in a "lore" perspective but in gameplay i think it translates poorly. Espacialy in close quarters environement.

A good trade-off in my opinion would be to delete the "hawk eye" talent in Marksmanship and make it baseline-core to the hunter class. In high end raiding you never take this talent because you would prefer to go into improved hunter's mark. The exception is being a hunter Puller in a speed-run. And again it's more about comfort. A veteran hunter raider do not need the extra range for pulls.

However it's mandatory for pvp, especaly with the existence of the dead zone. For lvling it's not a necessity but it is incredibly comfortable and helps you kitting. Having the extra 6 yard range would fit in the hunter class fantasy, lower the skill gap and the punishement receive for kitting errors making it more enjoyable for both new comers to the class and veterans a-like. And mainly it would be a direct response to existence of the dead zone in Vanilla.

Just for focusing even more on the problems the dead zone brings to the class. When you are stuck in it, the only responses are going into engineering for grenades or having extra consumes to get out of it. Making other professions choices fairly poor for hunter if they don't go into engineer.

However one question to wich i don't have an answer. what do you do with the 3 extra talent points ? create a new talent ? just delete and that's it ? If you have any idea go ahead :)

5) Defensives. We unforunately don't have much of Defensive CDs. aspect of monkey (not really a CD, with mana cost and locked behind GCD it requires some anticipation. we do have Deterence, requires to go into survival. We then rely heavily on consumes, potions, bandaid etc...

So I had this idea (maybe it's trash), let me know what you think. it would be whole new ability called "lick" (ofc name is weird but hear me out)
Your pet would charge to you (like an intervene from later expansions) giving you a lick. Low-instant-heal + a HoT of 12-15 sec. on a 2-3 min cooldown. a bit like a rejuv from druids. the animation could be a white trail charge from the pet with little hearts flowing around him or you.

This ability would give us not only more sustain for pvp/pve/lvling, but a tool too to manage our pet in raid or pvp to avoid incoming dmg (Heigan dance for example) or just to replace him in a better position. However in No-circumstances it will heal you back up to full. Im not mathematician so I don't know how much it should give you back.

6)Pet revamp/ having brokentooth bis is boring :/ Hunters lovers loves having the choice of the pets. Maybe new abilities for other families ? bleed effect ? haste buff ? a slow poison ? Aoe taunt ? a chain lightning like shamans ?

The post is already pretty long. Take a look and tell me what you think ! I have plenty of other ideas ! Now it's time for you guys to share yours ! :)

[Geojak]

Spamming trueshot deals great dmg but is not a fun mechanic. Put at 4-6s cd and buff hunters otherwise to make arcane shot relevant

[Hyrag]

Hello !

With the announce of Version 2 pass on the classes. What can we expect for hunters ? It's an open discussion where we can discuss what we would like to see added/taken off or changed. Be creative or crazy, just throw ideas and let's poke holes into them ! :D

Even if you think it's not possible to implement, I think we can have a fun exchange of where we would like to see the hunter be. One thing that would have been great is to know what are the objectives of the V2 class changes : bug fixes ? new mecanic ? ideas from other expansions ? We don't really know at the moment what the team wants to achieve. Maybe if someone can clarify that point ? it would really help to give feedback and know the context of it.

I'll start with some ideas of my own, feel free to interact !

1) -Having one less bag slot is not a great feeling let's be honest, espacialy with all the items and consumes that exist Vanilla. Maybe add one slot bag for hunters or the quiver act like a totem or an idol and has its own placement in the character panel?

2) -Speaking of quivers, what about the amo pouch ? Having a 3d model of them on the side of the waist or maybe as bandolier would be great :D they need to be bouncy tho !

3) Aspects are a core mecanic of the hunter class and can be swaped around depending of the situation! In a cave or a building and you cant shoot? Wolf! Low health and in risk of dying ? Monkey! The shaman that has the totem of nature resist is dead ? Aspect of nature ! Unfortunately it comes at efty mana cost and gcd. if you didn't properly manage your mana or ran out of consumes you are stuck in a maybe inconvinient aspect.

Example : You are kiting an elite mob with aspect of sheetah ON, and for whatever reasons the mob is closing on you and you'd like to go into monkey or wolf ? Well tough luck for you ! you are out of mana and now get dazed. To remedy this problem you then need to create a cancel macro of every aspects. Not really a fan of that. having to make macros to have a core abilities worked properly or to not get punished because you didn't manage your mana properly. wich is not fun, and clunky.

My proposal would be to nulify the mana cost of every aspects and to be able to use them Off-GCD. It would make "aspect-dancing" viable and rewarding when pulled off. I think it would help more newbie players when kitting and the feel of getting stuck in an inapropriate aspect woudn't be there anymore. It would give hunters in pvp more "room" for errors too when kitting to avoid incoming damage in monkey or to deal extra damage with raptor strike in Wolf. it opens up the abilty of making a quick choice in a critical situation.

4) I have a love-hate relationship with the dead zone in Vanilla. being a sitting duck is never fun nor enjoying. I understand its presence in a "lore" perspective but in gameplay i think it translates poorly. Espacialy in close quarters environement.

A good trade-off in my opinion would be to delete the "hawk eye" talent in Marksmanship and make it baseline-core to the hunter class. In high end raiding you never take this talent because you would prefer to go into improved hunter's mark. The exception is being a hunter Puller in a speed-run. And again it's more about comfort. A veteran hunter raider do not need the extra range for pulls.

However it's mandatory for pvp, especaly with the existence of the dead zone. For lvling it's not a necessity but it is incredibly comfortable and helps you kitting. Having the extra 6 yard range would fit in the hunter class fantasy, lower the skill gap and the punishement receive for kitting errors making it more enjoyable for both new comers to the class and veterans a-like. And mainly it would be a direct response to existence of the dead zone in Vanilla.

Just for focusing even more on the problems the dead zone brings to the class. When you are stuck in it, the only responses are going into engineering for grenades or having extra consumes to get out of it. Making other professions choices fairly poor for hunter if they don't go into engineer.

However one question to wich i don't have an answer. what do you do with the 3 extra talent points ? create a new talent ? just delete and that's it ? If you have any idea go ahead :)

5) Defensives. We unforunately don't have much of Defensive CDs. aspect of monkey (not really a CD, with mana cost and locked behind GCD it requires some anticipation. we do have Deterence, requires to go into survival. We then rely heavily on consumes, potions, bandaid etc...

So I had this idea (maybe it's trash), let me know what you think. it would be whole new ability called "lick" (ofc name is weird but hear me out)
Your pet would charge to you (like an intervene from later expansions) giving you a lick. Low-instant-heal + a HoT of 12-15 sec. on a 2-3 min cooldown. a bit like a rejuv from druids. the animation could be a white trail charge from the pet with little hearts flowing around him or you.

This ability would give us not only more sustain for pvp/pve/lvling, but a tool too to manage our pet in raid or pvp to avoid incoming dmg (Heigan dance for example) or just to replace him in a better position. However in No-circumstances it will heal you back up to full. Im not mathematician so I don't know how much it should give you back.

6)Pet revamp/ having brokentooth bis is boring :/ Hunters lovers loves having the choice of the pets. Maybe new abilities for other families ? bleed effect ? haste buff ? a slow poison ? Aoe taunt ? a chain lightning like shamans ?

The post is already pretty long. Take a look and tell me what you think ! I have plenty of other ideas ! Now it's time for you guys to share yours ! :)

I think the "core" of the hunter's surv melee build should be haste (attack speed) and parry being like an duo tank(the hunter and the pet) in dungeons and in leveling. like the rogue tank build but with pet.

1. pet family rework:
new skills and mechanics for pet viabilization in pve/raid
2. more survival melee hunter talents:
buff the scale on melee Spells with melee AP and weapon dmg.
moogoose strike buff-
make it a 2/3 target cleave. active on PARRY(justifying 5/5 parry talent on surv tree)
3.Aggro "swapping" Skill with pet in melee spec
4.a bleed that build up aggro

the survival hunter plays alone with the beasts so no raid viabilization(for now)

[Ishilu]

Fully agree with point 6 from the OP. More different pet abilities make the game more interesting. However, note that we all can choose to either follow or happily poop on any kind of meta.

My opinion on the other ideas from the OP can be summed up as: no QoL stuff, please.

About survival and melee hunters and class changes in general:
Yes, Rexxar is cool, and yes, there's a "class" called "survival hunter" in a game called "retail wow" that relies on melee dps, but retail is not WoW. Also, if I want to hit stuff in melee, I log onto my rogue or my warrior.
Survival in vanilla may be rarely played, but it's fun and I'd rather like to see my traps and wyvern sting being buffed slightly, than replaced by some melee cleave.

From my point of view, it's also ok that not every spec for a "pure dps class" is good for 40-man-raid dps and respeccing at lvl 60 really isn't too expensive on this server. It's different for hybrid classes, of course. However, one of the great features of TBC was that they fixed many specs so they became good enough for raiding while keeping their vanilla gameplay highly recognizable. If the devs choose to further "fix" classes, that's where they should look, imo.

The big hunter fix was making traps (and wyvern sting) useable in combat and giving beastmasters Ferocious Inspiration and survival hunters Expose Weakness, thus giving both some form of raid utility. They forgot to give trueshot aura some scaling, though. Viper aspect was also pretty neat, but I don't think we need that one in vanilla. Also (and I hate to admit it), WotLK brought a good talent with Black Arrow, which allowed hunters to put a lot of points into their traps but still utilize these points while standing around and shooting a boss instead of using their traps.

[Hyrag]

Fully agree with point 6 from the OP. More different pet abilities make the game more interesting. However, note that we all can choose to either follow or happily poop on any kind of meta.

My opinion on the other ideas from the OP can be summed up as: no QoL stuff, please.

About survival and melee hunters and class changes in general:
Yes, Rexxar is cool, and yes, there's a "class" called "survival hunter" in a game called "retail wow" that relies on melee dps, but retail is not WoW. Also, if I want to hit stuff in melee, I log onto my rogue or my warrior.
Survival in vanilla may be rarely played, but it's fun and I'd rather like to see my traps and wyvern sting being buffed slightly, than replaced by some melee cleave.

From my point of view, it's also ok that not every spec for a "pure dps class" is good for 40-man-raid dps and respeccing at lvl 60 really isn't too expensive on this server. It's different for hybrid classes, of course. However, one of the great features of TBC was that they fixed many specs so they became good enough for raiding while keeping their vanilla gameplay highly recognizable. If the devs choose to further "fix" classes, that's where they should look, imo.

The big hunter fix was making traps (and wyvern sting) useable in combat and giving beastmasters Ferocious Inspiration and survival hunters Expose Weakness, thus giving both some form of raid utility. They forgot to give trueshot aura some scaling, though. Viper aspect was also pretty neat, but I don't think we need that one in vanilla. Also (and I hate to admit it), WotLK brought a good talent with Black Arrow, which allowed hunters to put a lot of points into their traps but still utilize these points while standing around and shooting a boss instead of using their traps.

Every class in the classic has a "offmeta" build for leveling and pve in general besides raids.
I think surv spec is really a supportive spec but needs a buff so my points
1. Buffing melee hunter should create a surv tree type of leveling and pve without buffing other leveling and pve ways.
(Same way with arcane mage buffs)
2. Expose weakess is a good surv raid fix in tbc but in classic locks your build with a full set and dont relate with surv tree. So idk.

[Mac]

Bring back Lacerate please thank you. Just more for melee hunters in general would be appreciated.

I would also like to see the scrapped pet abilities added back into the game. There are a bunch and they would give pet types that don’t have their own unique abilities something of their own.

And I would like to see more stuff tameable. For a while there was a tameable ogre (it counted as a wolf) and I thought it made a rather clever pet for a goblin to have. Bring that back, make it a gorilla. Tameable spirit wolf would be nice. Tameable kodo (counts as a boar). I think the bears in Icepoint Rock aren’t tameable and if so they should be changed to be tameable because the model is unique.

And the scrapped idea of hunters taming their own mounts was an interesting one and worth considering.

Snake trap? Why not?

[Furiiosa]

I just want to see a TBC-style dead zone of 5 yards.

As for bag space, most other classes have this issue. Hybrids carrying around their gearsets, warlock soul shards, symbol of kings stacks. Probably doesn't need a change here unless you give all other classes more space as well.

[Vanga]

Spamming trueshot deals great dmg but is not a fun mechanic. Put at 4-6s cd and buff hunters otherwise to make arcane shot relevant

I don't know how it really feels like in high end raiding at the moment but I could agree with that having arcane shot and to the extend serpent sting based on spell power is weird and do not make much sense.

I just want to see a TBC-style dead zone of 5 yards.

As for bag space, most other classes have this issue. Hybrids carrying around their gearsets, warlock soul shards, symbol of kings stacks. Probably doesn't need a change here unless you give all other classes more space as well.

The 5 yards definitly feels better to play arround than 8. But having the choice for the players to automate or not the switch between melee start attacks and range start attacks is then necessary I think.

However I'll have to disagree with you for the bag spaces. paladins/priest/shamans etc... don't require to dedicate 18 slots bag space for their class consumes. But I would aggree for Warlocks however.




To adress the survival spec, it is really badly represented in game. Clearly something can be done. But then it's like creating a whole sub-class wich requires a lot of energy and probably ressources to the team. Unfortunately we still don't know what is their scope with this V2 class changes.

I would definitly be excited with a trap/melee weaving amphasis on the survival spec. with It being more a medium to close range spec. And MM being the Longer range archer. To me, there is clearly an opportunity to create something fun and engaging in gameplay without being extremely overly complicated. Some of you spoke of a bleed effect or lacerate. I like that idea too :D

But then a question is on the table. what would the survival spec bring to a 40 man raid? A buff ? Competitive dps with melee specific classes ? The discussion is very large.

Fully agree with point 6 from the OP. More different pet abilities make the game more interesting. However, note that we all can choose to either follow or happily poop on any kind of meta.

My opinion on the other ideas from the OP can be summed up as: no QoL stuff, please.

About survival and melee hunters and class changes in general:
Yes, Rexxar is cool, and yes, there's a "class" called "survival hunter" in a game called "retail wow" that relies on melee dps, but retail is not WoW. Also, if I want to hit stuff in melee, I log onto my rogue or my warrior.
Survival in vanilla may be rarely played, but it's fun and I'd rather like to see my traps and wyvern sting being buffed slightly, than replaced by some melee cleave.

From my point of view, it's also ok that not every spec for a "pure dps class" is good for 40-man-raid dps and respeccing at lvl 60 really isn't too expensive on this server. It's different for hybrid classes, of course. However, one of the great features of TBC was that they fixed many specs so they became good enough for raiding while keeping their vanilla gameplay highly recognizable. If the devs choose to further "fix" classes, that's where they should look, imo.

The big hunter fix was making traps (and wyvern sting) useable in combat and giving beastmasters Ferocious Inspiration and survival hunters Expose Weakness, thus giving both some form of raid utility. They forgot to give trueshot aura some scaling, though. Viper aspect was also pretty neat, but I don't think we need that one in vanilla. Also (and I hate to admit it), WotLK brought a good talent with Black Arrow, which allowed hunters to put a lot of points into their traps but still utilize these points while standing around and shooting a boss instead of using their traps.

I would really apreciate for you to explain what you mean by 'No QoL stuff please' Do you have any examples in mind ?

However I can see you are not familiar with how hunter actualy plays in Wrath now. The meta is to go in melee and drop a trap + raptor strike. Black arrow is actualy a pretty big dps loss in comparaison.

But I will agree with you that traps and wyvern sting could be looked at in Vanilla to be more usable. Having it locked behind a non-combat status in sad haha.

[Sakuradelirium]

I want hunters survival spec to be better. alot talents that could be merged
so there can be spear hunters or melee hunters change talents a bit so they can be good

having spear damage be based off agility this give hunters a niche. and hunters would look for spears in raids what not. they could add new spears to the game

only class that uses spears is hunter most the time those spears are agility focused and give them new way to play

[Sakuradelirium]

Deflection + Survivalist become one talent

New Talent - Gorilla Tactics - Increases Max HP and by 2% and Parry by 2% per

Deterance and Counter-Attack are now baseline

Trap Mastery + Clever Trap + Entrapiment - are merged into 5 point talent

New Talent ability - Impale - Requires a Spear to use - can only be used when targets HP is below 30% and attack always results in a critical when used from behind

New Talent Ability - Fend- Twirls spear over head hitting all targets around you (weaker whirlwind) that increases your dodge and parry chances (has a cd)

Improved Wing Clip Removed

Weapon Finesse Talent - 5 points - Damage cause by spears is based by 100% of your agility over strength and increases
Weapon Savagery - Critical Hits caused by melee weapons heal nearby party members HP and MP equal to 5% damage dealt and 1% crit chance with melee strikes
Spear Mastery - 5+ chance to crit when wielding polearms. and have 5% more chance to proc there on hit effects

Surefoot goes down to tier 2 talents.
Improved feign death teir 3 talents

Wyvern sting now baseline. new 31 ability Power Strike - when hunter uses this move it deals damage for and next trap they can lay they can lay it in battle.

[Billymenager]

The mana aspect of the viper, may be that we have 50% reduced dmg when using it but the mana regeneration is very fast. Mana especially on dungeons or raids goes dow very fast and this is a problem, in TBC this aspect was very useful. It would also be nice to have instant pet healing rather than channeled.

[Ishilu]

I would really apreciate for you to explain what you mean by 'No QoL stuff please' Do you have any examples in mind ?

However I can see you are not familiar with how hunter actualy plays in Wrath now. The meta is to go in melee and drop a trap + raptor strike. Black arrow is actualy a pretty big dps loss in comparaison.

But I will agree with you that traps and wyvern sting could be looked at in Vanilla to be more usable. Having it locked behind a non-combat status in sad haha.

Hope this doesn't come across offensively, but I was referring to the first points in the OP:

1) quiver slot: I agree, it's annoying to sacrifice a bag slot, but then hunters are already killing machines in open PvE/farming and every class needs some downsides. Didn't wrath or cata make quivers more or less obsolete? If you browse my other posts, you'll see that I'm opposed to almost everything that moves turtle wow towards any expansion beyond tbc.

3) mana cost of aspects: I referred to this already. We need to manage our mana or we get into bad situations. Part of the game for me. Viper aspect in TBC was nice but then the content we're playing here is already tuned for hunters that run out of mana when they're not careful or use consumables. I have to admit however, that aspect of the wolf in its current state is rather annoying. Maybe they could change that to "reduce ranged damage by x%" ?

4) Dead zone: again, removing or reducing the dead zone makes the game easier. Make the game too easy and it stops being fun. The tbc fix was nice (not saying necessary), but it shouldn't be removed.

5) Defensives: Maybe I wasn't quite sure what you were suggesting here. I tried retail some time ago (very briefly, I think it was BfA) and I dimly recall something like a turtle aspect that worked similar to some damage bubble. I assumed you're suggesting something like that. Hunters already have plenty of ways to avoid or get out of bad situations: tracking, long range, concussive shot, wing clip, scatter shot/intimidation/deterrence, FD (+traps), cheetah and I'm probably forgetting some, also we have mail armor on top of that, so we're not exactly squishy. I don't think we need or should get any more builtin defenses.

By the way, you're also right about me not being familiar with how people play in Wrath these days. I first lost interest in the game when Wrath came out "back then" and gave it another shot on a private server some time before WoW classic was rebooted. I love vanilla and TBC, but Wrath and everything that came after is obviously not for me. However, my point about black arrow was this: if you put points into trap-related talents prior to WotLK, these points were useless when it came to dpssing on a boss and B.A. looked like an attempt (probably poorly balanced, considering your post) to change that, so it might be worth considering.

[Ravenstone]

I also wouldn't want to see them make qol changes, it cheapens the gameplay imo. They aren't annoying to the point of being gamebreaking.

I'd like to see them lean more into the melee weaving style for Survival by introducing another 31 pointer, a TBC Expose Weakness but one you activate as an ability. Could bring back Lacerate and bake it into that. Would do more to solidify a different gameplay style rather than just sit back and shoot.

Also they could introduce pet scaling via a talent in BM, potentially making it benefit from the hunters str, ap, crit and hit.


As a complete aside, why was the topic title changed? It's not like Hunters need a nerf... I feel like a few threads have been changed.

[Vanga]

I would really apreciate for you to explain what you mean by 'No QoL stuff please' Do you have any examples in mind ?

However I can see you are not familiar with how hunter actualy plays in Wrath now. The meta is to go in melee and drop a trap + raptor strike. Black arrow is actualy a pretty big dps loss in comparaison.

But I will agree with you that traps and wyvern sting could be looked at in Vanilla to be more usable. Having it locked behind a non-combat status in sad haha.

Hope this doesn't come across offensively, but I was referring to the first points in the OP:

1) quiver slot: I agree, it's annoying to sacrifice a bag slot, but then hunters are already killing machines in open PvE/farming and every class needs some downsides. Didn't wrath or cata make quivers more or less obsolete? If you browse my other posts, you'll see that I'm opposed to almost everything that moves turtle wow towards any expansion beyond tbc.

3) mana cost of aspects: I referred to this already. We need to manage our mana or we get into bad situations. Part of the game for me. Viper aspect in TBC was nice but then the content we're playing here is already tuned for hunters that run out of mana when they're not careful or use consumables. I have to admit however, that aspect of the wolf in its current state is rather annoying. Maybe they could change that to "reduce ranged damage by x%" ?

4) Dead zone: again, removing or reducing the dead zone makes the game easier. Make the game too easy and it stops being fun. The tbc fix was nice (not saying necessary), but it shouldn't be removed.

5) Defensives: Maybe I wasn't quite sure what you were suggesting here. I tried retail some time ago (very briefly, I think it was BfA) and I dimly recall something like a turtle aspect that worked similar to some damage bubble. I assumed you're suggesting something like that. Hunters already have plenty of ways to avoid or get out of bad situations: tracking, long range, concussive shot, wing clip, scatter shot/intimidation/deterrence, FD (+traps), cheetah and I'm probably forgetting some, also we have mail armor on top of that, so we're not exactly squishy. I don't think we need or should get any more builtin defenses.

By the way, you're also right about me not being familiar with how people play in Wrath these days. I first lost interest in the game when Wrath came out "back then" and gave it another shot on a private server some time before WoW classic was rebooted. I love vanilla and TBC, but Wrath and everything that came after is obviously not for me. However, my point about black arrow was this: if you put points into trap-related talents prior to WotLK, these points were useless when it came to dpssing on a boss and B.A. looked like an attempt (probably poorly balanced, considering your post) to change that, so it might be worth considering.

Hey man ! No worries ! I like to ask ppl pov to understand more :) ; We are all here sharing ideas and experiences because we love the hunter class and not aggreeing is totaly fine; Im new to this community so I wanted to know where usualy ppl stand.

I totaly understand that having some frictions in gameplay or "clunkyness" is the real feel of Vanilla. It's just sometimes I'm fighting the class design more than the mobs if you know what I mean haha :D

For example having to use FD + traps for CCing is not my favourite thing as other classes don't have to do that type of shenanigans to cc. And you are right that we have many tools already but those in comparaison to other classes feels weak imo. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the hunter to be able to do everything. Just more options in encounters. Wing clip sure but then you are already in melee. Concussive is a fairly poor slow of only 3 sec where others have 5-9 sec slows. Deterence is unfortunately a big joke in vanilla, ok it works a bit for pve but in pvp you just have to stand behind the hunter and the effects of deterence is totaly nullyfie. Mail armor, yes it helps against physical attacks but it does not take magical dmg into considiretion. wich means we are naked against any wizard.

Again, I really want to say I don't want the hunter becoming the S+ tier and totaly dominate everything. But having more answers to enemy attacks would be nice. A lot of time, it's fairly easy to predict what a hunter will use. And we are siting ducks.

And yeah I totaly agree with you with Wolf. it's a good start but needs tuning.

I also wouldn't want to see them make qol changes, it cheapens the gameplay imo. They aren't annoying to the point of being gamebreaking.

I'd like to see them lean more into the melee weaving style for Survival by introducing another 31 pointer, a TBC Expose Weakness but one you activate as an ability. Could bring back Lacerate and bake it into that. Would do more to solidify a different gameplay style rather than just sit back and shoot.

Also they could introduce pet scaling via a talent in BM, potentially making it benefit from the hunters str, ap, crit and hit.


As a complete aside, why was the topic title changed? It's not like Hunters need a nerf... I feel like a few threads have been changed.

Hey ravenstone ! I totaly love your idea of melee weaving style for survival and I really think that's where it should go to offer a new experience to the game.

Again pet scaling is poor in vanilla, but need to be carful with that or it will make it like in tbc where the BM hunter becomes god tier dps with a pet doing 25 to 30 % of the dmg.

And yeah someone is changing the title even tho I keep editing it. it's very uncomfortable that I don't get notified or asked. I will keep editing it tho. but yeah one of the admins/mods is having fun apparently

[Ishilu]

I'd like to see them lean more into the melee weaving style for Survival by introducing another 31 pointer, a TBC Expose Weakness but one you activate as an ability. Could bring back Lacerate and bake it into that. Would do more to solidify a different gameplay style rather than just sit back and shoot.

Also they could introduce pet scaling via a talent in BM, potentially making it benefit from the hunters str, ap, crit and hit.

Pet scaling is an important point.

About the 31pointer: I've played survival for quite a while now, though more on various TBC servers than on vanilla. I love a ranged gameplay with traps and CC for good measure, using melee only when there's no good alternative and I'd hate to see my spec being replaced by another generic melee dps. So, I'm very much against replacing the survival tree in its current state, but maybe there would be a way to add stuff like lacerate into the existing tree, only with some requirements like putting points into raptor strike or so.

I've done some digging on the internets and found this WoW 1.1 talent calculator:
http://www.classicwowtalents.appspot.co ... =1124125_3

Working from that one, I'd be rather happy with a solution similar to this:
1. Add something like improved tracking (5 points. Darnit, I've made 2 suggestions from WotLK within 3 days. What's happening to my brain?) next to improved raptor strike and precision.
2. make savage strikes affect ranged and melee
3. New passive talent: Expose weakness (similar to tbc, affecting ranged and melee), requiring savage strikes (?)
3. make lacerate not require savage strikes but e.g. 5 points in melee specialization
4. condense the trap talents into clever Entrapment, Clever Traps and Trap Mastery, just like our current version.
5. Put Wyvern Sting next to lacerate, but with a requirement like Trap Mastery 2/2

Result: we'd get 2 trees crammed into one: Melee dps for all those melee hunter enthusiasts (really, I don't get it) and improved traps and CC's for weirdos like me .

[Vanga]

I'd like to see them lean more into the melee weaving style for Survival by introducing another 31 pointer, a TBC Expose Weakness but one you activate as an ability. Could bring back Lacerate and bake it into that. Would do more to solidify a different gameplay style rather than just sit back and shoot.

Also they could introduce pet scaling via a talent in BM, potentially making it benefit from the hunters str, ap, crit and hit.

Pet scaling is an important point.

About the 31pointer: I've played survival for quite a while now, though more on various TBC servers than on vanilla. I love a ranged gameplay with traps and CC for good measure, using melee only when there's no good alternative and I'd hate to see my spec being replaced by another generic melee dps. So, I'm very much against replacing the survival tree in its current state, but maybe there would be a way to add stuff like lacerate into the existing tree, only with some requirements like putting points into raptor strike or so.

I've done some digging on the internets and found this WoW 1.1 talent calculator:
http://www.classicwowtalents.appspot.co ... =1124125_3

Working from that one, I'd be rather happy with a solution similar to this:
1. Add something like improved tracking (5 points. Darnit, I've made 2 suggestions from WotLK within 3 days. What's happening to my brain?) next to improved raptor strike and precision.
2. make savage strikes affect ranged and melee
3. New passive talent: Expose weakness (similar to tbc, affecting ranged and melee), requiring savage strikes (?)
3. make lacerate not require savage strikes but e.g. 5 points in melee specialization
4. condense the trap talents into clever Entrapment, Clever Traps and Trap Mastery, just like our current version.
5. Put Wyvern Sting next to lacerate, but with a requirement like Trap Mastery 2/2

Result: we'd get 2 trees crammed into one: Melee dps for all those melee hunter enthusiasts (really, I don't get it) and improved traps and CC's for weirdos like me .

Hey man I really apreciate your input ! Even tho i'm a melee weaving enthusiast, which to make sure that everyone is on the same page, is not melee only but a mix of range/melee. That is extremly rewarding when you have big 2 hander (hashkandi for example) doing a big fat juicy crit with the windfury totem procing. Thoses numbers are so big, so goood :D.

With that said, I don't want that play style to be mandatory for hunters. Always having the choice of playstyle is something great for letting everyone enjoy the class.

I really dig your proposal with the survival tree, having both ideas merged into one sounds definitly delicious and fun!

[Ravenstone]

About the 31pointer: I've played survival for quite a while now, though more on various TBC servers than on vanilla. I love a ranged gameplay with traps and CC for good measure, using melee only when there's no good alternative and I'd hate to see my spec being replaced by another generic melee dps. So, I'm very much against replacing the survival tree in its current state, but maybe there would be a way to add stuff like lacerate into the existing tree, only with some requirements like putting points into raptor strike or so.

My idea wasn't really to make people go into melee and stay there, nor was it to remove Wyvern Sting. One of the more interesting vanilla Hunter rotations was to run into Melee and use Raptor strike in your rotation downtime and run back out to resume ranged attacks. That was what I wanted to replicate, rather than the Trueshot spam with all specs we have now. If people want to stay in melee and be suboptimal after then thats cool.

TBC moved in a completely different direction, which is fine, but we'd need TBC traps here as well if you wanted that playstyle. That is a much bigger ask and a change that a lot here have voiced against.

[Gantulga]

Trueshot removed as it completely dumbs down the playstyle and is boring to the boot. The original weaving was at least mildly interesting.
Some PvP changes like flare being less oppressive and harder to use.

[Borefficz]

Improved Predator Aspects and Rapid Fire don't have a great synergy as when used together (which they should be since they stack multiplicatively) they cause your Trueshot cast time to go well below 1s, effectively wasting the extra speed since you have to wait for the GCD anyway. While Improved Predator Aspects and Rapid Fire are both active, even a "perfect" 3.4 speed weapon gives you a narrow window to execute an optimal Trueshot/Autoattack loop. With 3.2 base speed you only have 29 miliseconds to not clip your autoattacks. Anything faster than 3.2 cuts into white DPS no matter how well you do. My proposition is to change Improved Predator Aspects so instead of granting 30% attack speed it grants about 20-30% increased Auto Shot and Trueshot damage.

While I understand there is a concern about making Hunters too strong, pets really could use some scaling with the Hunter's gear, if needed even at the cost of nerfing the Hunter a little bit so the pets scale better into endgame. Or at least make whole sets of pet oriented gear similar to Breastplate of Beast Mastery so if you want to, you can fully commit to making your pet as strong as it can be.

Add a "Bestial Elusiveness" talent in early Beast Mastery that increases the damage reduction granted by Avoidance from 50% to 67.5/75%. While 50% reduction is helpful, pets still often die in raids. Utility pets such as ones using Screech need a little help to stay alive to provide their benefits throughout the whole encounter.

Add a "Savage Precision" deep Beast Mastery talent that causes increases to Hunter's hit chance to also apply to the pet's hit and spell hit chance.

This one might be controversial considering its PvP implications, but making Hunter traps usable in combat and increasing the cooldown of traps to 30s to match the Feign Death cooldown would make traps a lot less clunky.


I'm not saying all of the above things should be introduced but at least one or two.

PS. Most importantly, fix Pet trainers deleting Avoidance off pets pls.

[Calli]

If you find trueshot boring then don't use it. It is not mandatory. You can use melee weaving.
Are you really suggesting that to give trueshot a cd? Or nerf the hunter to make the pet stronger? Be reasonable. Arcane shot also has its place when to use it, if you a hunter then you should know.
Worst ever suggestions I ever read.

Traps in combat would be welcome by all hunter imo. Using them with feign death all the time is weird. It would just need a cd same than feign death to finish the current mechanic, and would not affect any balance.

[Jc473]

I think a couple of simple talent additions to the Survival tree would make it more appealing. I think both of the following are in keeping with the Survival theme:
1) allow traps to be placed in combat
2) some form of mana sustain (aspect of the viper as already mentioned)

I think either of these should be a 1 point talent requiring you to go somewhat deep into the survival tree (10 or 20 points).

As already mentioned in the thread, I think the survival tree could potentially act as a complimentary option to the other two trees. This could be enticing enough to encourage some blended talent builds across the trees.

[Vonric]

1) Remove DeadZone
2) Pets - Make all families worthwhile in either PvP or PvE. Some are just objectively bad which is shame. Also extra 2 pet stable slots would be nice to compliment the extra pets you might want to have.
3) Traps - Allow in combat. Adjust cooldowns as needed for balance.
4) Aspects - Remove mana cost, maybe remove GCD? - makes aspect switching worthwhile in combat, which adds a layer of skill.

[Keds]

Actually, I would love to see userfull talents since huntes currently only have 2 PvE builds, one if don't have hit cap, and the other if you do. Reworking talents like;

BM:
Improved Aspect of the monkey: (This talent talent doesn't make sense as you are building into BM and doesn't need to tank whatsoever, it's a very situational spell, no one builds around using it and now it's even worse with aspect of the wolf, maybe put this into survival tree, but I don't think this talent would be worth noneless)

Spirit Bond: (I can see this one being the most userfull out of theses, but IMO it's a very weak talent, not fun and not worth it)

MM:
Improved Arcane Shot: (Spending 5 points into this talent is a waste, MAYBE for PvP but even then, not worth it. IMO this should increase arcane shot damage as well and maybe be a 3/3 talent)
Improved Serpent Sting: (Same as above, but worse, Serpent Sting is a meme spell, and spending 5 points into it is even worse)
Improved Scorpid Sting: (I think this is the most terrible spell on the game, speccing into this is nonsense)

My sugestion is to remove theses 2 Improved stings, combine them into one single talent called:

Improved Stings
5/5 points
Increase the damage done by your Serpent Sting by 5/10/15/20/25% and reduce the stamina of targets affect by Scorpid Sting by 8/16/24/32/40% of the ammount of strength reduced.

Overall, I think they should make other specs viable for PvE especially, being stuck with only one viable option is kinda lame...

[Hyrag]

I'd like to see them lean more into the melee weaving style for Survival by introducing another 31 pointer, a TBC Expose Weakness but one you activate as an ability. Could bring back Lacerate and bake it into that. Would do more to solidify a different gameplay style rather than just sit back and shoot.

Also they could introduce pet scaling via a talent in BM, potentially making it benefit from the hunters str, ap, crit and hit.

Pet scaling is an important point.

About the 31pointer: I've played survival for quite a while now, though more on various TBC servers than on vanilla. I love a ranged gameplay with traps and CC for good measure, using melee only when there's no good alternative and I'd hate to see my spec being replaced by another generic melee dps. So, I'm very much against replacing the survival tree in its current state, but maybe there would be a way to add stuff like lacerate into the existing tree, only with some requirements like putting points into raptor strike or so.

I've done some digging on the internets and found this WoW 1.1 talent calculator:
http://www.classicwowtalents.appspot.co ... =1124125_3

Working from that one, I'd be rather happy with a solution similar to this:
1. Add something like improved tracking (5 points. Darnit, I've made 2 suggestions from WotLK within 3 days. What's happening to my brain?) next to improved raptor strike and precision.
2. make savage strikes affect ranged and melee
3. New passive talent: Expose weakness (similar to tbc, affecting ranged and melee), requiring savage strikes (?)
3. make lacerate not require savage strikes but e.g. 5 points in melee specialization
4. condense the trap talents into clever Entrapment, Clever Traps and Trap Mastery, just like our current version.
5. Put Wyvern Sting next to lacerate, but with a requirement like Trap Mastery 2/2

Result: we'd get 2 trees crammed into one: Melee dps for all those melee hunter enthusiasts (really, I don't get it) and improved traps and CC's for weirdos like me .

Hey man I really apreciate your input ! Even tho i'm a melee weaving enthusiast, which to make sure that everyone is on the same page, is not melee only but a mix of range/melee. That is extremly rewarding when you have big 2 hander (hashkandi for example) doing a big fat juicy crit with the windfury totem procing. Thoses numbers are so big, so goood :D.

With that said, I don't want that play style to be mandatory for hunters. Always having the choice of playstyle is something great for letting everyone enjoy the class.

I really dig your proposal with the survival tree, having both ideas merged into one sounds definitly delicious and fun!

i think that A Survival talent like Expose weakness in classic should affect just melee damage

[Phandaal]

A few more stable slots would be nice, and being able to use damage traps in combat would be great.

CC traps should still take a little extra to use to keep them from being too OP.

Add some pet scaling, maybe not to the extent we end up with another Big Red Kitty situation, but just to beef them up a bit.

Also, allow ranged attacks during Aspect of the Wolf.

[Vanga]

Hey guys,

Sorry for not keeping the discussion going. A lot of things going on in life :D .

A lot of ideas and subjects were thrown arround and I'd like to thank everyone to participate in the debat ! :)

One of them that really caught my eyes is the pet subject. Maybe we could expand torward this.

Clearly the identity of the hunter class is having a companion (or maybe being a lonewolf why not ?), having the choices of our prefered companions is an important feature. However we could feel bad for taking one over another to get along the meta. A fair point is to just not follow it and play however you want. But that feeling of can sometimes stay in the back of our minds.

So with that said, what you guys would you like to see improved or changed with the pets ?

One great idea I have read is more room in the stable ! Love it. Would definitly help us "get away" from the holy trinity :cat/wind-serpent/Owl.

Some did mentioned new spells or better scaling, if you guys would like to go in more details:

Example of new spells, cooldown, focus price, interactions between hunters and pets, new families, Speed attack, rare pets having maybe access to specific abilities or resistance ? New skins ?

Go on guys, go crazy with ideas :D

[Weso]

Tbh, I just wanna see the ranged Weapon on the back of my Hunter ._.

[Slicplaya]

"My proposal would be to nulify the mana cost of every aspects and to be able to use them Off-GCD. It would make "aspect-dancing" viable and rewarding when pulled off. I think it would help more newbie players when kitting and the feel of getting stuck in an inapropriate aspect woudn't be there anymore. It would give hunters in pvp more "room" for errors too when kitting to avoid incoming damage in monkey or to deal extra damage with raptor strike in Wolf. it opens up the abilty of making a quick choice in a critical situation.

4) I have a love-hate relationship with the dead zone in Vanilla. being a sitting duck is never fun nor enjoying. I understand its presence in a "lore" perspective but in gameplay i think it translates poorly. Espacialy in close quarters environement."

So basically You want WotLK aspects and dead zone. ME too. I hate this Vanilla dead zone. Especially on the 14k player super lagfest known as Turtle Wow.

[Ashlot]

The pet warehouse can hava enough position for all kind of pet?XD
i wanna all kind pet
but its olny 3position now

[Cabum]

+6 or 9 hit to pets. To be learn from pet trainer at 60. I think it wont impact pvp that much, but will better reward pet management in raids.

more pet training points.

a similar ammo pouch like the Sinew quiver

[Delsin]

I've always wanted to be able to have more pets, variety is good and whatnot, and I've seen a ton of players mention they want more pet slots in the stables. I'm unsure of the logistical difficulty of adding more slots, how much of it is hard coded etc, but it would definitely make a lot of hunters happy to have more than just the 3 meta pets.

Cabum's idea of adding hit bonus to pets would be a good way to increase pet sustained dps in raids and high level dungeons. If pets got more training points, +x% hit trainable pet skills could be added too. Or if not, then +x% hit skill from a pet trainer could work just fine. Alternately, Borefficz's idea of a BM talent for pet hit would also help out. If they went with the talent idea it could also be rolled into an existing BM talent to prevent talent bloat.

Unique pet family attack/support skills is another thing I've heard others want. Quite a few pet families have no unique skill and some don't get access to normal skills that they get in the wild. There are quite a few ways to go about this, one is to look at later retail expansion and see what was added. This could help form a baseline, or just pick out the really cool ideas, such as crabs getting a pincer immobilize + damage, raptor getting a short duration rend, crocolisk getting a rip tendon minor bleed and movement speed debuff, or a spider getting a web immobilize effect. Once the pet families have unique skills, existing pet families unique skills could be adjusted too. Cats' cower skill is nearly useless so giving them something more exciting would be good.

Additional trainable skills would also help personalize pets and make them more valuable for high level content. These could be anything from weaker, non-unique versions of pet family skills (and share a cooldown so no chain charge shenanigans), to the abilities mobs use in the wild that hunter pets do not normally get access to. One that I wished we could get was Ice Claw that the frosty bears get in the dwarven lands. They keep the skill during the Hunter class quest, but you can't get it/train it later on. It would certainly need a balance pass, but I think it would be pretty sweet to be able to train your pet with an exotic skill like that, that roaming fire elemental will be pretty surprised when my cat Mittens busts out the frost damage...before proceeding to bite it in the face. Poisonous bites, filthy claws, wing buffets, mirrored scales, leap, painful spines, sonic scream, adrenaline boost, are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Not all would make sense for every pet family to be trainable, but since hunter pets can mysteriously gain and lose super thick hides, elemental resistance, and the ability to move faster, the restrictions on these new trainable skills should be fairly lax. A wolf with a poisonous, spined mane, a howl that pierces metal, and jacked legs gives a much more flavorful feel than generic loud wolf from Elwynn Forest. Even if the extra skills are only a mechanically minor change.

Another benefit for having additional trainable and exotic skills would be more reason for the hunter to scour the wild for new and rare animals to tame. This along with larger stables would increase the engagement hunters have with the world.

More pet families. This would definitely require larger stables, but a wider variety of terrestrial pets would be great. Sadly most sharks can't go on land. To the great relief of the gnomish people. Whether this extends into the 'exotic' pets like chimera, devilsaur, and corehound, I am not sure. They were added in Wrath and caused BM to be very dominant at the start, and proceeded to get nerfed into the ground as the patches went on. If their base stats were balanced around existing pet families and their unique skill(s) were also balanced as such, would they be terrible popular? Would it require a tier 7 alternate talent? If it required a talent would it also give all the BM hunter's pets stat boosts to make the talent more enticing if say I just wanted my Mittens to becomes the slayer of Ragnaros?

Similar to Phandaal I think pets do need some level of scaling to make them more useful at higher levels. I'm unsure as to the exact percentages, how are pet stats at 60? Would a simple 5 or 10% of a Hunter's core stats be enough for high level content? Or would it only be enough for BM or MM? It would need a lot of testing, as with all the suggestions, but it would be worth it in the end.

Keds mentions some talent issues with Hunter that I definitely agree on, not every talent needs to be a 'must take' or super sweaty optimal, but having more viable or semi-viable talents would help the class. Perhaps Spirit Bond needs to include some amount of stat boost to make it more valuable and as a further incentive to keep your pet alive?

For pet's survivability issues with AoEs, perhaps take Borefficz' idea of Bestial Elusiveness, but instead merge it with an existing tier 1 or 2 BM talent such as Thick Hide or Endurance Training. This could help lighten the talent tax on making the pet not die by standing in the fire like a mage. Or perhaps both talents would have some amount of AoE reduction, with both combining to give the pet 75%-90%. Endurance Training could give 2/4/6/8/10% and Thick Hide another 5/10/15% or 10/20/30% for example.

[Booglesz]

Would be nice if pets got quest xp

[Bnrcorpsman]

Can we please get a few more slots to purchase in the stables ^^,

[Rymermerys]

Implement Cold Arrow from WC3.

[Spriggit]

3 Main changes that would mean the most to this hunter:

1) Allow traps to be used during combat.

2) Some kind of pet scaling with gear, at the very least in the hp/ac department.

3) Aspect of Wolf second tier with a survival talent that grants a much quicker mongoose strike recycle