WorldBoss ID

[Sylveria]

I'm against FFA PvP or PvP in World Boss situations in general. After all: THIS IS A RP-PVE-SERVER. Whoever thinks that everything has to have a PvP-Component should look for a PvP-Server. Dont drag or force PvP-Situations upon Players who are clearly not interested in it.

My idea about the ID system is, yes, to lockout people for an X amount of time to receive loot from those specific bosses they've downed. While the respawn time Z should be significantly lower than the ID time.
IF the mafia would still block the world bosses, even though they have ID on 'em, it might be considered griefing, since some of those world bosses, Ostarius and the Nerubian Watcher, are bound to quests.

https://turtle-wow.org/#/rules#griefing

Farming quest givers, important quest objectives and important NPC's for long periods of time and blocking other players from accepting or turning in quests.

That way other players have the chance to experience 'em as well.
Thought about an ID lockout of one week, while the respawn timer of world bosses would be around 6-8 hours. With this respawn timer, people from all different time zones will have a similar chance to engage with world bosses.

[Zzerty]

The entire point of world bosses is that players have to compete to get to them first. There already is a solution to make bosses killable for everybody: putting them in an instance! That would be so much easier than creating a complicated set of rules and then banning dozens of players every week.

[Ibux]

The entire point of world bosses is that players have to compete to get to them first. There already is a solution to make bosses killable for everybody: putting them in an instance! That would be so much easier than creating a complicated set of rules and then banning dozens of players every week.

key word "compete". the bosses are killed by the same players over and over always. it might work when you got like 1500 online and many of them don't know how to fight them. and might not even be 60 yet. but this modern realm have too much players efficiently organised to farm them. it's a dog shit experience is what it is.

[Balake]

The entire point of world bosses is that players have to compete to get to them first. There already is a solution to make bosses killable for everybody: putting them in an instance! That would be so much easier than creating a complicated set of rules and then banning dozens of players every week.

You keep regurgitating the same talking points about "the point of world bosses". Everybody else just doesn't understand, we're supposed to be playing in 10k player mega servers fighting over one world boss that drops 2 items every week!

Nobody's getting fooled by it anymore these days. World bosses were made when vanilla wow had 2k pop servers from one timezone with only a small percent of them raiding.

[Tawneyturtle]

The entire point of world bosses is that they are on a "first come first served" basis. If they wanted that not to be the case they would've put Ostarius inside an instance.

Calling players who organise to complete objectives in a videogame a "mafia" is nothing but smearing. Smearing is neither warm nor welcoming.

L take, monopoly is never good, doesn't matter how you justify it.

[Aeternusdoleo]

The entire point of world bosses is that they are on a "first come first served" basis.

In my opinion, this is a terrible design for many reasons - but the biggest one is that it uses people's greed to invite them to be discourteous to each other.
If you're going to do this, then make the bosses have no reward that is worth fighting over at that level. Maybe some special mount or something, that people can do without. And make it non-tradeable so the "mafia" cannot profit from efforts on the auction house.

[Ibux]

just make them hard af to do. so even the trained and geared players fail them most of the time. then a debuff on failure will let others compete for the kill.

[Zzerty]

You keep regurgitating the same talking points about "the point of world bosses". Everybody else just doesn't understand, we're supposed to be playing in 10k player mega servers fighting over one world boss that drops 2 items every week!

Nobody's getting fooled by it anymore these days. World bosses were made when vanilla wow had 2k pop servers from one timezone with only a small percent of them raiding.

There are three things that have changed since then: population, Discord, and people taking games more seriously. The cat is out of the bag.

I think your suggestion is good but, if they can be summoned on demand, then they aren't the same as world bosses anymore. And still, people would continue to complain about 1) the same guilds killing them over and over while others can't ("we can't spend this much time farming the mats, unfair!!!!11") and 2) some nonce being flagged for pvp, contaminating the whole raid with the flag, and then the entire raid getting wiped. And probably other things I can't come up with right now.

L take, monopoly is never good, doesn't matter how you justify it.

No, the situation is more like the same athlete always winning the 100-metre dash at the olympic games, which... well, happens all the time. In this case nothing stops other groups from coordinating using Discord; they just don't want to, because they want the boss handed to them.

[Sylveria]

No, the situation is more like the same athlete always winning the 100-metre dash at the olympic games, which... well, happens all the time. In this case nothing stops other groups from coordinating using Discord; they just don't want to, because they want the boss handed to them.

The comparison falters, since the "mafia" is more like an athelete using doping and starting ahead of everyone else, while the rest is tryin' to play fair and square.
And as mentioned multiple times, why it's not workin' in the current system: The keyword is: TIME ZONES. That alone does it make impossibel to "compete" as long as you're not someone without a life to live... well excuse me: an entire raid without a life. :)

[Elesion]

just make them hard af to do. so even the trained and geared players fail them most of the time. then a debuff on failure will let others compete for the kill.

I like the idea (though I'm having a hard time seeing how overtuning them would make them more accessible to raids that could actually use their drops as gear upgrades). Certainly more elegant than some behind-the-scenes ID lock-out. Call it "World Boss Exhaustion". If you die while in combat with a world boss you get it for 30-60 minutes so you are forced to take turns with other raids. If you kill a world boss you get it for 23 hours (or 47 or whatever is sensible for tuning). The "kind" version of the debuff could reduce all damage and healing by 80% while fighting any world boss. The rude version could insta-kill you when you engage a world boss.
Then all you have to do is make sure 2-4 world bosses always spawn at once and you have a simple and fairly elegant solution. By my last count TWoW has 12 different world bosses, it wouldn't be too crazy and immersion-breaking to have several spawn at once.

But again - this is all theory. Nobody in this thread has yet suggested a remotely practical solution. This fabled "mafia" is a super-group of many high-powered guilds. We're looking at probably hundreds of players, with presumably double or triple that amount of accounts and lvl 60 characters at their disposal. No per-character (or even per-account) lock-out will truly restrain them. It'll only marginally slow them down because they have to relog (half the raid is on their main characters and the other half on their alts, then you switch for the next boss, etc). It's a *really hard* problem to stop a determined group of gamers from optimizing the shit out of their game to gain the maximum advantage.

[Bayanni]

The problem:
World bosses are not available to everyone, only a section of the TWoW playerbase

The solutions proposed:
1) Auto-flag everyone involved so people not from the exclusive team have a chance. This is dumb since the exclusive team is better geared than the vast majority of players on the server and regularly mops the floor with teams that intentionally flag them in these fights already. Further, it's a complete and fundamental shift away from PvE server playstyles and will only serve to extend encounter times. This accomplishes no goals and creates vastly more problems. Bad solution.

2) Raid-instance the bosses. This solves griefing issues, but is substantial work for the dev team. Further, more discussion is needed on how this would work. Can any group of 40 come and raid the bosses on their own lockout rather than a server-wide lockout? Would the loot distribution be altered for the substantial increase in world boss items? Would only the first 40 people inside get the instance lockout regardless of group? Needs more discussion.

3) Vary the spawn times. This is already the case and doesn't stop people from watching for boss spawns. Non-viable.

4) Summonable world bosses. This seems the most viable at first, until you remember that's what Ostarius was at first and the devs didn't like how it was spawned over and over again for hours. Locking boss spawns behind expensive raid mats sounds like it would work, until you remember that guilds on this server have massive stockpiles of fiery cores, elementium, and naxx scraps, to name a few. You'd need to create an entirely new raid-only material, but this hard-locks these bosses to raiding guilds (unless they decide to PuG for some reason). If you give a CD on the summon, you're right back to where Ostarius is now, farmed and camped. Needs more discussion.

5) Leave it as-is. Zero work for the devs, bosses are still killed, and players do them often. This is currently better than most of the suggestions made imo since it doesn't make everything worse for actual benefit, only theoretical in magic Christmas land. It's not enjoyed, however, by many outside of the select group of players and seems to be the entire reason for the thread, the "have-not's" want in with the "have's". No solution will work unless both of these groups can be satisfied.

6) Raid boss death debuffs. This will most likely only result in more encouraged griefing, since you can force someone to not fight a raid boss for an extended time, they are actively encouraged to disrupt any other raid or group performing the same actions and stick them with the debuff too. Blizzard tried this with Azuregos and it failed. I don't see it working here either.


We know the devs think the current world boss situation is a problem, but solutions proposed aren't fleshed out enough to recommend implementation. I think summonable world bosses has the most chance of success since it's overall less work for the devs to implement than creating new instances entirely and the other ideas are just worthless from the start. I'd suggest working more on idea 4 to flesh it out fully and uniformly push for this solution.

[Balake]

There is a way of implementing world boss ID's sort of. You know how azuregos debuffs the player for 15 mins when the player dies, how about azuregos debuffs all players in 80 yard range for 7 days when AZUREGOS dies. While you have the debuff, if you approach Azuregos he immediately shoots an arcane meteor on you and you die. Then Azuregos could have a faster respawn time without letting the same players access its loot table more than the old 7 day timer intended by blizzard.

So yeah this is the idea, being around when a world boss dies marks you for death by that world boss. If they see you again within 7 days they're gonna target you and immediately unleash all their wrath upon you. After this, their respawn time can be shortened to whatever the devs see fit. Maybe 1 day, maybe 2, maybe dynamic depending on population.

[Ibux]

There is a way of implementing world boss ID's sort of. You know how azuregos debuffs the player for 15 mins when the player dies, how about azuregos debuffs all players in 80 yard range for 7 days when AZUREGOS dies. While you have the debuff, if you approach Azuregos he immediately shoots an arcane meteor on you and you die. Then Azuregos could have a faster respawn time without letting the same players access its loot table more than the old 7 day timer intended by blizzard.

So yeah this is the idea, being around when a world boss dies marks you for death by that world boss. If they see you again within 7 days they're gonna target you and immediately unleash all their wrath upon you. After this, their respawn time can be shortened to whatever the devs see fit. Maybe 1 day, maybe 2, maybe dynamic depending on population.

and anyone in the raid that killed it? this debuff could be shared by all the world bosses. so you would have to choose wisely what boss your raid want to kill.

[Balake]

and anyone in the raid that killed it? this debuff could be shared by all the world bosses. so you would have to choose wisely what boss your raid want to kill.

Most cases people just join world boss A to help their friends with the expectation their friends will help them on world boss B, cause they drop 1-2 good bis items and the rest nobody cares about.

If they shared lockout, nobody will want join any world boss except the ones that give them good loot which goes against wide goal of promoting cooperation and fighting selfishness

[Ibux]

and anyone in the raid that killed it? this debuff could be shared by all the world bosses. so you would have to choose wisely what boss your raid want to kill.

Most cases people just join world boss A to help their friends with the expectation their friends will help them on world boss B, cause they drop 1-2 good bis items and the rest nobody cares about.

If they shared lockout, nobody will want join any world boss except the ones that give them good loot which goes against wide goal of promoting cooperation and fighting selfishness

might make them invite more people randomly. instead of the same old group. but it also seems like a good case for fixing some of the useless items they drop.

[Tendies]

The problem:
World bosses are not available to everyone, only a section of the TWoW playerbase

The solutions proposed:
1) Auto-flag everyone involved so people not from the exclusive team have a chance. This is dumb since the exclusive team is better geared than the vast majority of players on the server and regularly mops the floor with teams that intentionally flag them in these fights already. Further, it's a complete and fundamental shift away from PvE server playstyles and will only serve to extend encounter times. This accomplishes no goals and creates vastly more problems. Bad solution.

Your take and everything else is dumb.
It would shake up things immensely. You're too short sighted to see that a whole new class of people would participate.
Obviously you don't know a thing about pvp since you think gear decides the winner. It's skills that decide and it only takes a few skilled pvp'ers to stop a world boss attempted by PvE brain noobs in naxx gear.

[Sylveria]

The problem:
World bosses are not available to everyone, only a section of the TWoW playerbase

The solutions proposed:
1) Auto-flag everyone involved so people not from the exclusive team have a chance. This is dumb since the exclusive team is better geared than the vast majority of players on the server and regularly mops the floor with teams that intentionally flag them in these fights already. Further, it's a complete and fundamental shift away from PvE server playstyles and will only serve to extend encounter times. This accomplishes no goals and creates vastly more problems. Bad solution.

Your take and everything else is dumb.
It would shake up things immensely. You're too short sighted to see that a whole new class of people would participate.
Obviously you don't know a thing about pvp since you think gear decides the winner. It's skills that decide and it only takes a few skilled pvp'ers to stop a world boss attempted by PvE brain noobs in naxx gear.

Aaaand again: This is not a PvP-Server. PvP shouldn't be involved in PvE-Objectives/Targets.

[Tendies]

Aaaand again: This is not a PvP-Server. PvP shouldn't be involved in PvE-Objectives/Targets.

Same old deflecting excuse.
If you really think that then you should demand PvP be completely disabled and BGs removed.

If you want some "Blizzard intended" then know that world bosses were meant to be PvP'ed over.

[Tawneyturtle]

Ppl who think its cool to have content on almost weekly lockout be limited to 20-40 players in a 5k pop server are absolute brainlets. Rank 14 argument all over again, requires unhealthy obsession with the game (camping spawn, botting spawn time, licking ass in world boss mafia) is stupid and toxic.

[Thecakeisalie]

How about making world bosses into instanced raids similar to Onyxia with ID lockout.

Could just be a gate/portal and perhaps reuse an empty version of Onyxia’s lair or something similar.

Pros: It would let everyone have a shoot at experiencing the boss and try and farm the sought after items.

Cons: It would totally remove roaming world bosses and any contest (pvp) between players to claim the kill. But since it is a pve server it might not be a huge downside.

[Bayanni]

The problem:
World bosses are not available to everyone, only a section of the TWoW playerbase

The solutions proposed:
1) Auto-flag everyone involved so people not from the exclusive team have a chance. This is dumb since the exclusive team is better geared than the vast majority of players on the server and regularly mops the floor with teams that intentionally flag them in these fights already. Further, it's a complete and fundamental shift away from PvE server playstyles and will only serve to extend encounter times. This accomplishes no goals and creates vastly more problems. Bad solution.

Your take and everything else is dumb.
It would shake up things immensely. You're too short sighted to see that a whole new class of people would participate.
Obviously you don't know a thing about pvp since you think gear decides the winner. It's skills that decide and it only takes a few skilled pvp'ers to stop a world boss attempted by PvE brain noobs in naxx gear.

Says someone who chose the name "tendies"

I'm saying this from experience on this server with the world bosses here. The people you're whining and whinging about don't lose those pvp fights, it just makes the pulls take longer. That's it. Every. Single. Time. It won't shake up anything because people already tried exactly this with entire pvp raids against the coalition and they just die.

No amount of skill will overcome how big the advantage on numbers and coordination these players have. Plus, many of their players ARE among the top pvpers on the server both in rank and reputation. You know less than nothing about pvp on turtle or the raiders who are killing the world bosses and talk like you do.

[Bayanni]

Aaaand again: This is not a PvP-Server. PvP shouldn't be involved in PvE-Objectives/Targets.

Same old deflecting excuse.
If you really think that then you should demand PvP be completely disabled and BGs removed.

If you want some "Blizzard intended" then know that world bosses were meant to be PvP'ed over.

Prove it

[Dragonwatch]

We've responded: viewtopic.php?t=8065

[Dragonwatch]

And as mentioned multiple times, why it's not workin' in the current system: The keyword is: TIME ZONES. That alone does it make impossibel to "compete" as long as you're not someone without a life to live... well excuse me: an entire raid without a life. :)

We don't have the same people in each raid. People sleep, work, and each group is different. Maybe there are a few players that join most world bosses, but the groups are diverse and everyone awake is welcome to join.

[Kairion]

The problem:
World bosses are not available to everyone, only a section of the TWoW playerbase

The solutions proposed:
[...]

4) Summonable world bosses. This seems the most viable at first, until you remember that's what Ostarius was at first and the devs didn't like how it was spawned over and over again for hours. Locking boss spawns behind expensive raid mats sounds like it would work, until you remember that guilds on this server have massive stockpiles of fiery cores, elementium, and naxx scraps, to name a few. You'd need to create an entirely new raid-only material, but this hard-locks these bosses to raiding guilds (unless they decide to PuG for some reason). If you give a CD on the summon, you're right back to where Ostarius is now, farmed and camped. Needs more discussion.

[...]

I was part of the group that did Ostarious when he didn't have the summon CD. Of course you would do that if the summon is free. And it was just a new exciting bossfight. But if a summon takes a LOT of materials (and lets just say for the sake of argument costs 2000g for one summon) - Do you really care that a guild with endless pockets will just summon the boss 10-20 times in one afternoon and have their people geared? Its an excellent goldsink and who cares if the guy who already has the best gear on the entire server gets a few marginal upgrades.

Sure if mats like black lotus or similar are used, you have an initial pricespike for these goods, but you can always make the summon require flat gold or some vendor purchased items. It doesn't have to be RAID materials per se to summon them. I'd argue its better not to take raidmats as guilds in progression will need their raidmats and are also the ones who would benefit most from easier access to worldbosses.
This also leaves the option open for PUGs piling some cash together and summoning it themselves

[Bayanni]

I was part of the group that did Ostarious when he didn't have the summon CD. Of course you would do that if the summon is free. And it was just a new exciting bossfight. But if a summon takes a LOT of materials (and lets just say for the sake of argument costs 2000g for one summon) - Do you really care that a guild with endless pockets will just summon the boss 10-20 times in one afternoon and have their people geared? Its an excellent goldsink and who cares if the guy who already has the best gear on the entire server gets a few marginal upgrades.

Sure if mats like black lotus or similar are used, you have an initial pricespike for these goods, but you can always make the summon require flat gold or some vendor purchased items. It doesn't have to be RAID materials per se to summon them. I'd argue its better not to take raidmats as guilds in progression will need their raidmats and are also the ones who would benefit most from easier access to worldbosses.
This also leaves the option open for PUGs piling some cash together and summoning it themselves

I'm definitely not in favor of using mats that are already in the world since regardless of their rarity they will spike in price. Have you seen Delicate Feathers recently? And that's for something purely cosmetic. The only exception I could see is BoP dungeon items like Frayed abomination Stitching or Skin of Shadow since those are instanced.

I do agree with your point that current raidmats would be a problem for newer and progressing guilds entirely.

So, we're stuck with your proposal of a lot of raw gold, which would be a good gold sink but also much more likely to be done by older players, or my proposal, of an entirely new raid material, or a combination of both. I, personally, like the combo, although I do worry about the thought of passing one person so much raw gold and just hoping they don't run off with it. I wouldn't PuG that.

And you know that if the gold is passed to one person, there will be tickets made about it and it will create an entirely new headache for the GMs. This would mean most of the time one person would just have to make it happen kind of like the Silithus Lords currently work in practice. Sure, guilds could farm them and they do have a couple good items, but it's just not happening, probably because of the investment in time and materials. Maybe no solution is perfect, but this is closer to a good one I feel, but I'm not really sure how to improve it either.

[Balake]

Silithus Lords were done so much back when they were new, everybody loved the buffs and new items, and the way of summoning them was already really well handled by blizzard.

They're just not done as often now because the hype died down and most people got what they needed from them.

I still see some silithus lord kills sometimes, while it's certainly disappointing when players don't do an activity, what matters most is that there's enough of it if anybody wants to participate.

[Grinspoon]

I don't see any good argument against OP's proposition in this thread. Even without the "mafia" most players wouldn't get to kill world bosses because the population is simply too large.
Outside of that there are already rules against engagement in PVP in cross faction groups so the devs could simply increase spawn rate, slap an ID on the boss loot (not sure how easy the technical aspect of that is) and make clear that PVP/griefing around world bosses is a bannable offense.

[Ibux]

I don't see any good argument against OP's proposition in this thread. Even without the "mafia" most players wouldn't get to kill world bosses because the population is simply too large.
Outside of that there are already rules against engagement in PVP in cross faction groups so the devs could simply increase spawn rate, slap an ID on the boss loot (not sure how easy the technical aspect of that is) and make clear that PVP/griefing around world bosses is a bannable offense.

if people with loot id can still kill the bosses. then they could just rotate inn friends and allies that need that specific boss for loot and doesn't have the loot id.

[Balake]

I don't see any good argument against OP's proposition in this thread. Even without the "mafia" most players wouldn't get to kill world bosses because the population is simply too large.
Outside of that there are already rules against engagement in PVP in cross faction groups so the devs could simply increase spawn rate, slap an ID on the boss loot (not sure how easy the technical aspect of that is) and make clear that PVP/griefing around world bosses is a bannable offense.

if people with loot id can still kill the bosses. then they could just rotate inn friends and allies that need that specific boss for loot and doesn't have the loot id.

Instead of continuing to propose convoluted and very hard to implement things like a loot id (something completely unprecedented in all of wow until mists of pandaria), just do the thing where killing the boss debuffs you for 7 days, and walking close to it with the debuff instantly kills you.

[Kairion]

Wow that will solve it if the boss has a 7 day respawn timer
Even if you make the duration of the debuff significant - That will take exactly 5 minutes to be gamed with people heathing away shotly before the kill etc.

The problem is just the absolutely unsatisfactory supply of worldboss spawns for a server of this size.

[Zzerty]

The comparison falters, since the "mafia" is more like an athelete using doping and starting ahead of everyone else, while the rest is tryin' to play fair and square.

Doping is cheating and no one is cheating by showing up first.

Equating coordination through Discord and being permanently online with cheating is absurd and borderline malicious.

[Balake]

Wow that will solve it if the boss has a 7 day respawn timer
Even if you make the duration of the debuff significant - That will take exactly 5 minutes to be gamed with people heathing away shotly before the kill etc.

The problem is just the absolutely unsatisfactory supply of worldboss spawns for a server of this size.

What do you mean, I said in the previous reply that if this is implemented, they can shorten the world boss respawn timer without letting one person get loot faster than the intended rate

[Kairion]

Wow that will solve it if the boss has a 7 day respawn timer
Even if you make the duration of the debuff significant - That will take exactly 5 minutes to be gamed with people heathing away shotly before the kill etc.

The problem is just the absolutely unsatisfactory supply of worldboss spawns for a server of this size.

What do you mean, I said in the previous reply that if this is implemented, they can shorten the world boss respawn timer without letting one person get loot faster than the intended rate

Ah my bad, didn't see the full context

[Tendies]

Says someone who chose the name "tendies"

I'm saying this from experience on this server with the world bosses here. The people you're whining and whinging about don't lose those pvp fights, it just makes the pulls take longer. That's it. Every. Single. Time. It won't shake up anything because people already tried exactly this with entire pvp raids against the coalition and they just die.

No amount of skill will overcome how big the advantage on numbers and coordination these players have. Plus, many of their players ARE among the top pvpers on the server both in rank and reputation. You know less than nothing about pvp on turtle or the raiders who are killing the world bosses and talk like you do.

Lmao you have no idea how quickly 70% of people on this server buckle under at the slightest sight of PvP. I am talking from personal experience here from before strict no PvP-flagging at world bosses became the thing.

And please do tell me the names of these so called top PvP'ers they have and I'll tell you how they suck.