Turtle WoW

hello this is a post for my PvPers, AV is a mostly PvE game mode a dash of PvP and has the best honor for most, with that said I think it should be disabled so the other BGs have a chance to thrive. They are never running because everyone is in AV and it is the most boring BG to exist but they do it for easy best honor. In the spirit of playing turtle for the fun of it please make AV a weekend BG or something, ty.

av hardly ever pop. when it does pop i often already forgot i queue'd for it. this is mostly a pve server. most players here just don't give a crap about pvp. you need a premade to have fun in the other bg's or else it's just as boring. av is more solo player friendly.

Warsong is the most boring battleground i have ever seen, chasing FC across the map.
AB pops normal.

Thraxexus wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am

hello this is a post for my PvPers, AV is a mostly PvE game mode a dash of PvP and has the best honor for most, with that said I think it should be disabled so the other BGs have a chance to thrive. They are never running because everyone is in AV and it is the most boring BG to exist but they do it for easy best honor. In the spirit of playing turtle for the fun of it please make AV a weekend BG or something, ty.

That's a really odd argument, saying you want to increase the fun by disabling AV. Have you considered that other people have different preferences from yours? From my perspective as someone who enjoys AV the most out of all BGs (and doesn't really care about honor) this boils down to: "People are playing the BG they're having the most fun with. Disable that so they're forced to play the less fun ones".

That's not a good way of going about things. Especially when this isn't an all-or-nothing question to begin with. How about trying to rebalance things instead of disabling part of the game? If you say the other BGs aren't competitive in terms of honor gain (I wouldn't know), maybe their payout needs to be buffed?
I'm with you in terms of reputation gain. WSG and AB have good rewards, they're just an excruciatingly slow grind compared to AV (especially WSG where my winrate against the horde pre-mades approaches 5%). If reaching exalted with WSG/AB were more realistic, I would consider playing more of it. As is, WSG is just pure suffering for virtually no payout.

I suspect the root cause of your problem is the honor system itself. If you don't play for fun and you have this really silly ranking mechanism (where everyone taking a day off would not impact the rating and make everyone much happier) you feel forced to play for maximum honor gain. Change that, or do yourself a favor and stop running the pvp grind hamster wheel on an individual level before we're talking about taking out content that other people enjoy.

Heine wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 8:22 am

Warsong is the most boring battleground i have ever seen, chasing FC across the map.

This, it's absolutely terrible. Just a gank- and turtling-fest that is super unfriendly to casual players without epic gear. If both teams are good and well-geared matches will last forever. If one team is weaker they get stomped. The smaller the teams the more pidgeon-holed everyone is into tanky burst dps builds where healers feel like a burden on the team. AV and AB have strategy to them, WSG is just kill kill kill. It's super boring.

It really depends on what honor weekend it is and the time of day.

Just make WSG x3 honor and reputation and Arathi x5 honor for victory

AV is pretty much the only BG I'm interested in (with the odd AB every now and then). What it needs is to have turtle games of several hours long becoming the norm to weed out the honor farmers and those who treat it as a PvE farm instance

Ibux wrote: ↑

Sun May 28, 2023 8:09 am

av hardly ever pop. when it does pop i often already forgot i queue'd for it. this is mostly a pve server. most players here just don't give a crap about pvp. you need a premade to have fun in the other bg's or else it's just as boring. av is more solo player friendly.

You are right. I have a level 60 Paladin and am currently leveling a Warlock and I haven't done PvP even once on either character and don't care about it at all.

Rat2156 wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:57 am

AV is pretty much the only BG I'm interested in (with the odd AB every now and then). What it needs is to have turtle games of several hours long becoming the norm to weed out the honor farmers and those who treat it as a PvE farm instance

You're not wrong. I've been in two bogged-down turtle games so far. And while after 2.5 hours it turns a bit exhausting - that's the AV experience I'm remembering from Vanilla! It's great. It's fun to desperately fight for every inch of land. And it's super disheartening seeing many people just afk in a graveyard or being toxic in chat in these longer games.

I'd say you've really hit the mark here. AV lasting 1-2 hours is probably what the rewards are tuned for. But player-run optimization has boiled AV down to a 20min rush, so now it feels overly rewarding. It's a natural tendency of gamers, they'll always figure out the most efficient strategies. But it's still a shame that so much classic AV content gets left behind (drops, upgrades, wing masters, summoned lords - that stuff never comes into play).

Elesion wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 10:02 am

Rat2156 wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 1:57 am

AV is pretty much the only BG I'm interested in (with the odd AB every now and then). What it needs is to have turtle games of several hours long becoming the norm to weed out the honor farmers and those who treat it as a PvE farm instance

You're not wrong. I've been in two bogged-down turtle games so far. And while after 2.5 hours it turns a bit exhausting - that's the AV experience I'm remembering from Vanilla! It's great. It's fun to desperately fight for every inch of land. And it's super disheartening seeing many people just afk in a graveyard or being toxic in chat in these longer games.

I'd say you've really hit the mark here. AV lasting 1-2 hours is probably what the rewards are tuned for. But player-run optimization has boiled AV down to a 20min rush, so now it feels overly rewarding. It's a natural tendency of gamers, they'll always figure out the most efficient strategies. But it's still a shame that so much classic AV content gets left behind (drops, upgrades, wing masters, summoned lords - that stuff never comes into play).

It's not about players being efficient, its about horde being dumb and rarely defend their base.
When they do - alliance can not rush 20min win.

Heine wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 10:07 am

It's not about players being efficient, its about horde being dumb and rarely defend their base.
When they do - alliance can not rush 20min win.

That is part, but that is not the whole story.

To start with - not defending can be efficient, it's not automatically "dumb". Objectives give flat bonuses, so chaining quick losses while clearing as many objectives as you can might well be the optimal strategy in terms of gains per hour if you feel like you cannot win the ultimate PvE race against Alliance.

Alliance is not obligated to give up Stonehearth Graveyard, but it's efficient to do so because it means Horde spawns behind you instead of in front of your push. Whenever 3-5 Alliance players decide to defend Stonehearth the game slows down considerably because the entire Horde must now go past Tower Point when they respawn. (this is also true for Horde - if they defend Iceblood the respawn pressure on Stonehearth increases and they cannot hold it or at least not advance from it, bogging the game down)

Alliance and Horde players are not obligated to pass each other by instead of engaging each other, but it is efficient to do so and most players just tip their hat and ride past each other to get to the objectives.

I see a lot of smart optimizations for efficiency in the way AV usually goes on Turtle.

Elesion wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 11:37 am

Heine wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 10:07 am

It's not about players being efficient, its about horde being dumb and rarely defend their base.
When they do - alliance can not rush 20min win.

That is part, but that is not the whole story.

To start with - not defending can be efficient, it's not automatically "dumb". Objectives give flat bonuses, so chaining quick losses while clearing as many objectives as you can might well be the optimal strategy in terms of gains per hour if you feel like you cannot win the ultimate PvE race against Alliance.

Alliance is not obligated to give up Stonehearth Graveyard, but it's efficient to do so because it means Horde spawns behind you instead of in front of your push. Whenever 3-5 Alliance players decide to defend Stonehearth the game slows down considerably because the entire Horde must now go past Tower Point when they respawn. (this is also true for Horde - if they defend Iceblood the respawn pressure on Stonehearth increases and they cannot hold it or at least not advance from it, bogging the game down)

Alliance and Horde players are not obligated to pass each other by instead of engaging each other, but it is efficient to do so and most players just tip their hat and ride past each other to get to the objectives.

I see a lot of smart optimizations for efficiency in the way AV usually goes on Turtle.

Yeah, it's a highly documented phenomenon by now. Players are prone to optimise the fun out of games. It's not fun for them to do so, but they feel compelled to do so because of a numerical advantage and peer pressure.
That's something that's important to know for game design, as it means that players won't have fun in your game unless you force them to have fun. If you don't, they'll just find the best way to cheat themselves out of the experience as fast as possible

Disabling Minefields was a fuckhuge mistake

AV is a PvE battleground that somehow has the best honor and allows AFK players to thrives, it's just not an interactive or a skill promoting battleground in any way compared to any other BG because it's PvE based. I've been PvPing for 2 weeks on turtle now at 60 and AV is always the fastest to pop, WSG/AB pop every 30 mins - 2 hrs if its not busiest time of day which only lasts 3-4 hours then it's usually 5-30 mins, while AV always pops in 5 mins or less unless its absolutely dead or you're on the over populated alliance. I haven't even entered a single Sunnyglade Vale BG with over 30 hours qued into it (accumulated over multiple ques). I understand people enjoy AV but it shouldn't be the only BG running regularly because it's the easiest AFK honor farm which in no way is promoting skill or active players being rewarded. It awards the AFKers most. Plz make WSG and AB queable again can't wait an hour for a 6 person match to start then 2 leave and it ends in 5 mins : / that is the most regular experience in anything but AV

While at it could we please also disable dps specs so people would finally play tanks in dungeons?

Irony aside. People play AV for many reasons. It allows people with less pvp experience to contribute, the rewards even for non ranking people are obtainable and decent, The flavor of the BG is top notch, It allows tanks & supporters to be useful in PvP etc.
Doubtful all players would transition onto the "better" bgs if all you do is disable av.

I despise arathi because if i'm not the one defending Farm / Stables, usually noone is. Meaning if i want to WIN arathi, the game forces me to AFK. Having to choose between fun and winning is never fun, especially when the rewards are basically unobtainable for anyone but the most tryhard from arathor and forsaken. Neither do i think "chase the druid" for 30 minutes is fun.

The reasons these bgs never pop is because
1. Classic Ranking is flawed as a system and mandates you to go for max honor/h
2. Rewards from Arathi / WSG are either garbage or unreasonably hard to obtain
3. Other BGs put more personal responsibility onto players, with win concious players having to pick up the slack from the zergs
4. This is a PvE server, many of the players are not interested in a 100% PvP experience.

Disabling AV will only interact with the 1. point and will not solve it either.

So related to all above. Turtlewow is a server with crossfaction communication & regularly 5+k active players. Clearly if people were interested in WSG it should be possible to organize something. Sounds like a better solution than forcing them into WSG/Arathi at gunpoint

disable pve afk honor farm mode plz n thx

Imagine if lieutenants gave honor only to ppl in a certain radius when killed.

I propose to install snowball sellers at the starting positions. And snowballing afker in Alterac Valley towards the exit portal.

AV is great and I've seen both the most brutal stomp fests and epic come-from-behind victories there. WSG is the worst imo and there really should be some discussion how to make it better. Maybe it can take some pointers from AV regarding the usefulness of adding pve elements to a pvp battleground.

40 man pve everyone afk at a flag and fight npcs is not pvp and should only receive a fraction of the honor actual pvp deserves

Of course ppl that say warsong is the worst bg are just pvers, warsong is the best bg even whith his flaws (mostly faction imbalances).

I havent played old AV yet, but its supposed to last long :D (days)

Im hearing that it ends fast...

Reading that people want AV to be disabled sounds very dissapointing.

Mysterieslel wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:31 am

I havent played old AV yet, but its supposed to last long :D (days)

Im hearing that it ends fast...

Reading that people want AV to be disabled sounds very dissapointing.

Thats a vocal minority that is playing for high pvp rankings and has to play pvp for an unhealthy amount of time. Thats just a side effect of the horrible classic pvp system in general. And has basiclally nothing to do with the battleground itself and much more with the fact that they have to play the one bg they enjoy the least because of the way pvp rewards are distributed.

40 man pve afk isnt pvp why does turtle wow ruins its pvp for pve honor farmers