Turtle WoW

My current warmode experience so far:

- unflagged mage casting pyroblast waiting for me to get low, i cant attack him before its too late
- rogue caught me at mob with 10% hp and finished, when i found him for a revenge within next 3 minutes he is pve-ing unflagged spamming /lol at me

Why unflagged for pvp players are able to attack warmode at all ? Or why arent they pvp marked for the next 1-2 days as punishment for their violent actions ?
Currently people just bully warmoded characters.

I agree. Non flagged should not be able to attack flagged. Players should be able to flag themselves in specific places. Not right before the attack.

But this solution may be or may not be implemented. For you I'd reccomend to do all grey quests and stay in location outleveled. Less people will want to gank you. Less resources you need to spend to kill stuff.

In core this is a pve server.
On a pve server you can use /pvp to flag yourself if you loke
Warmode is just a /pvp that you can't turn off but you gain +30% exp in return.
flagged for pvp players could always be attack by unflagged players on pve servers.

Your suggestion forces pve players to get flagged for days after they attacked someone as punishment. This can't be very popular in a pve server

Geojak wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:46 pm

In core this is a pve server.
On a pve server you can use /pvp to flag yourself if you loke
Warmode is just a /pvp that you can't turn off but you gain +30% exp in return.
flagged for pvp players could always be attack by unflagged players on pve servers.

Your suggestion forces pve players to get flagged for days after they attacked someone as punishment. This can't be very popular in a pve server

Very comfortable to gank some1 abusing ur invulnerability as advantage, then hide behind a rock and be invulnerable again within next 3 minutes because you know this player will wreck you in a fair fight.
If you attack some1 you should be flagged for pvp for a long time, or make pve/pve toggle in towns so people cant abuse these options every time they want or feel advantageous.

So in this case pve players will be pvp toggled of for their comfort, and pvp players wont be backstabbed by unflaggers.

Geojak wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:46 pm

Warmode is just a /pvp that you can't turn off but you gain +30% exp in return.

This mode is here to encourage pvp scene, not to make you a target practice dummy for some1 who pretends he doesnt like pvp but pvping every time he has an advantage.

The 30% experience gain is there to off-set the fact that you're going to get bluewalled and ganked every now and then. But if getting bluewalled and ganked bothers you, you can always drop warmode by revisiting the glyph merchant.

Warmode is just badly designed. All it does currently is you trade 30% bonus exp for becoming tsrget practice as you rougly pointed out. Still a good deal but I see it not rly helping wpvp.

Warmode should give bonus honour from World pvp kills. After all you flagged for pvp, not for faster pve leveling.

Or it should just be removed, because it sents false expectations

Actually the best would be a rework of faction war. Why can't a human kill another human thazlt stole his rich thorium.

Pvp should mean you can attack anyone pvp flagged thaz isn't in your psrty/raid. Faction doesn't rly matter in open world.
That would make raid vs raid alot fairer on world bosses too.

The /pvp flag abuse against WM players has been brought up many times but the staff has never commented on it so I assume they simply do not care.

I agree that WM is just false advertisement in the end.

Make it so you need to be /PvP flagged for 5 mins before you can attack any other player.

Geojak wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:09 pm

Why can't a human kill another human thazlt stole his rich thorium.

This actually reminds me of the "Outlaw"-System from the Ascension-Server. I actually liked that system and I'd even +1 it, if it would come to turtle. It even opens the possibility for RP-PvP within the own faction.

Guys i think u never played on a PVP server...
Thats just a taste of it.

and whoever doesnt want to b pvp flagged and level fast, he can just download a fast quest guide addon.

I know PVP needs generaly changes.
But please cant see people complain about PVP flaggd and unflaggd.
if u chose it, u get along with it...

PEACE!!

Heine wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:30 pm

Why unflagged for pvp players are able to attack warmode at all ? Or why arent they pvp marked for the next 1-2 days as punishment for their violent actions ?

Speaking for myself, I don't PvP. I'm a RP'er, a PvE player. The most annoying thing about flagged people to me, is not being able to throw a heal or a buff on them without also getting flagged. I hate being flagged. It's to the point where I've avoided rolling any healing class because in dungeons, there's always SOMEONE running with warmode. I know no PvP is going to happen in a dungeon (or shouldn't), but that doesn't matter.

I do not want to be flagged.

Helping out a flagged person when they're out in the world, about to die to some mobs or whatever, is something I want to do. I like helping people. A five minute flag is very, very annoying, but in a situation like that I'll just head somewhere safe or remote and wait for it to go off. It takes a chunk of time away that I could be doing something else, but that's unavoidable.

You're suggesting to extend that flag to DAYS? Are you MAD? I get that being griefed is no fun, but this is a double-bladed sword we're dealing with here. If I have to be flagged for DAYS just for healing/buffing someone in a party who has Warmode, I think I'd just stop playing altogether.

Every time we do worldbosses with the guild we have someone spreading the pvp plague. And so far every time our guild killed ostarius we had some smartass pvp player trying to ruin our evening.

If you honestly suggest i should get flagged for days just for playing alongside warmode flagged players, the logical conclusion is to never ever group with warmode players again.

This would make sure these pesky pve players dont ruin your pvp. But i get the feeling warmode players do get the short end of the stick...

Majestik51 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:05 pm

Guys i think u never played on a PVP server...
Thats just a taste of it.

and whoever doesnt want to b pvp flagged and level fast, he can just download a fast quest guide addon.

I know PVP needs generaly changes.
But please cant see people complain about PVP flaggd and unflaggd.
if u chose it, u get along with it...

PEACE!!

i've played - feenix, emerald dream, nostalrius, elisium

All of them are pure pvp servers and pvp experience there was nowhere sad as TW, simply due to a fact that players there were unable to hide from pvp in peace mode as soon as they wish. Backstab some pvp player later and hide again.

There have to be two kind of players - these with pvp disabled who dont like pvp.
These with pvp enabled who like to pvp.
Should be no any option to gank & hide, because thats totall bs and completely ruins warmode experience which is aimed to encourage pvp not to destroy it further.

Mac wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:02 pm

The 30% experience gain is there to off-set the fact that you're going to get bluewalled and ganked every now and then. But if getting bluewalled and ganked bothers you, you can always drop warmode by revisiting the glyph merchant.

This is a very good point. WM is completely voluntary. You gain tons of extra experience, therefore you pay the price by taking the risk of being killed/ganked.
I feel that some part of the community would like to "have cookie and eat cookie" - additional experience is nice but should be served with minimum risk. If you want to reduce the risk factor, then the reward should be reduced by lowering additional experience. But then people will start complaining that WM does not offer any great benefits. And the vicious circle will go on and on.

Heine wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:30 pm

My current warmode experience so far:

- unflagged mage casting pyroblast waiting for me to get low, i cant attack him before its too late
- rogue caught me at mob with 10% hp and finished, when i found him for a revenge within next 3 minutes he is pve-ing unflagged spamming /lol at me

Why unflagged for pvp players are able to attack warmode at all ? Or why arent they pvp marked for the next 1-2 days as punishment for their violent actions ?
Currently people just bully warmoded characters.

The current state of warmode. There've been complaints on the forums. Many times. Yet nothing's been done, so don't spect anything in the near future.
It would make sense to have people who engage in pvp to be flagged for some time WHILE CONNECTED. Even if it's an hour or so. It's not as unbalanced as 1-2 days but should stop gankers.

Obviously, the real solution would be to remove the damn warmode, or remake it altogether.

Warmode just shouldn't be a thing. 30% (!) xp gain is just too much to pass by. That being said, I have so far only picked wm with one character and my experiences have often been pretty civilized. One player at my own level even asked me, whether I wanted to fight beforehand.

This is a pve server, so a flag should not last for two days, especially with wm being so common (as you get flagged for interacting with flagged players), as others have pointed out.

If you take Warmode, and flag yourself for PvP, that puts you at risk of being PvP'd by other players. Including those who are not flagged, but opt to flag themselves by attacking you. This is base game behavior, and is no different than world pvp on any typical PvE server. Don't take WM if you are not willing to take this risk.

Akalix wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:35 pm

If you take Warmode, and flag yourself for PvP, that puts you at risk of being PvP'd by other players. Including those who are not flagged, but opt to flag themselves by attacking you. This is base game behavior, and is no different than world pvp on any typical PvE server. Don't take WM if you are not willing to take this risk.

It is entirely different because there's no such thing as WM (or cross faction grouping) on normal servers. Don't act like this issue isn't exclusive to this server. WM players have no way to deal with such griefing outside of disabling WM forever, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of the mode, doesn't it?

Turtle tried to do too many things and utterly failed when it comes to PvP because things require more thought and consideration put into them.

9 characters, never done war mode, never will. I have no desire for World PVP so why would I bother to take war mode? This is a mode that is designed for people who want PVP. Not fair PVP, not conditional PVP, but PVP period. It was not designed with PVE players in mind, and it is becoming very tiring to see PVE players complaining about what players from PVP servers have dealt with for years.

30% experience is too much to pass up you say? I would argue that on Turtle, 30% extra experience is actually detrimental to the gameplay. Bonus experience is not a necessity. It is not the greatest thing in the world. Please quit framing it as though you are being given 1 million real-world dollars by using this mode, and complaining about the minor inconvenience of being freely gankable.

Furthermore, the absolute bitterness of these players driving them to vindictively recommend some sort of grossly disproportionate retribution for daring to accept the invitation that the PVP flag extends to their attackers is misguided at best and immature and petty at worst.

The bitterness is not warranted I'll agree, and the 30% XP is irrelevant to their arguements. Anyone bringing it up just wants to speed to 60.

Having said all that, it doesn't change the fact Warmode is inherently flawed from a PvP perspective. It is not the same as being on a PvP server. There are still two separate rules for those with Warmode and those without. Where in a PvP server you could hunt them down to retaliate, here you find them no longer flagged. If anything, a PvPer on the server is better off not being Warmode so he can guarantee first strike or attack at the best opportunity.

I'm of the opinion it's just not fit for purpose and should be removed. Attempting to mix a PvE and a PvP server can never work without proper separation. Which is exactly what we see here.

Redmagejoe wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:00 am

the minor inconvenience of being freely gankable

This is coming from somebody who has never used WM and most likely has no idea about world PvP? It isn't a "minor inconvenience", it goes against the very reason of wanting to experience WPvP. This is a messy interaction exclusive to this server, enabled by customizations.

Gantulga wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:35 am

This is coming from somebody who has never used WM and most likely has no idea about world PvP?

I played exclusively on PvP servers for 18 years before coming to Turtle WoW. It's a minor inconvenience.

Do you want to know what is frustrating? Being corpse-camped for an hour. Being ganged up on at every turn in mid to high level zones. Having to perpetually budget extra time for what you want to accomplish in your play session to account for the common ganktastic PvP server experience.

Your single death at the hands of some rando who will then run off or, at worst, kill you a second time and the 60 second corpse run is a minor inconvenience. Put your gripes into perspective. I agree warmode is a poorly-designed mode and it shouldn't enable EXP at all. This doesn't change the fact that people blow the PvP experience way out of proportion.

Gantulga wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:46 pm

WM players have no way to deal with such griefing outside of disabling WM forever, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of the mode, doesn't it?

If you're actually being griefed then you should record it and report it, right? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure real griefing is against the rules.

Akalix wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:35 pm

If you take Warmode, and flag yourself for PvP, that puts you at risk of being PvP'd by other players. Including those who are not flagged, but opt to flag themselves by attacking you. This is base game behavior, and is no different than world pvp on any typical PvE server. Don't take WM if you are not willing to take this risk.

This is not "base game behaviour".
1. Pve servers do not have warmode option
2. Pvp servers do not allow to abuse pvp invulnerability outdoor

So mentioned problem is TW specific.

Do you want to know what is frustrating? Being corpse-camped for an hour. Being ganged up on at every turn in mid to high level zones. Having to perpetually budget extra time for what you want to accomplish in your play session to account for the common ganktastic PvP server experience.

Today you are camped, tomorrow you will camp.
Do not act like its something disasterous, i've experiensed classic phase2 as well.
Here you just die without any chance of retalation, because person will be unflagged before you crawl to your body for recovery.

Anyway, i've disabled the WM mode because these minor 30% are nothing to be constantly ganked - some unflagged pussy who werre peaceful at start decided to "pvp", lasthit you and goes uhehe cent touch me mode.
Trully worst wpvp experience so far.

Heine wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:54 am

Akalix wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:35 pm

If you take Warmode, and flag yourself for PvP, that puts you at risk of being PvP'd by other players. Including those who are not flagged, but opt to flag themselves by attacking you. This is base game behavior, and is no different than world pvp on any typical PvE server. Don't take WM if you are not willing to take this risk.

This is not "base game behaviour".
1. Pve servers do not have warmode option
2. Pvp servers do not allow to abuse pvp invulnerability outdoor

So mentioned problem is TW specific.

Technically it is base game behaviour. At the end of the day, it's a PvE server and if you run around flagged, these are exactly the scenarios that happen.

It's just Warmode is basically mis-sold as an experience like that on a PvP server. And the bonus XP attracts people who don't want to PvP. It would be far more apt to name it the 'XP Boost with the annoying sides of being ganked' Glyph.

At the end if the day, the glyph just doesn't bring serve its real purpose whilst causing too many detriments to other people. It even trickles over into HC when you buff a stranger that happened to be WM, leading to scenarios where you don't even want to interact with people for fear of being killed after. It should just be removed, it divides the community more and more.

Ravenstone wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:39 am

At the end if the day, the glyph just doesn't bring serve its real purpose whilst causing too many detriments to other people. It even trickles over into HC when you buff a stranger that happened to be WM, leading to scenarios where you don't even want to interact with people for fear of being killed after. It should just be removed, it divides the community more and more.

My only pvp deaths (aside from bg) have being due to tagging along someone who happened to be a wm player. I didn't realize what was happening until it was too late, a lvl 60 ganked us in Westfall. A rogue, it was. It wasn't a hardcore toon, luckily.

Heine wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:54 am

This is not "base game behaviour".
1. Pve servers do not have warmode option
2. Pvp servers do not allow to abuse pvp invulnerability outdoor

So mentioned problem is TW specific.

You are conveniently flipping the equivalence of the issue. This is a PvE server. PvE servers absolutely allow you to "abuse pvp invulnerability outdoor". Your second point about "PvP servers do not allow" is irrelevant, because this is not a PvP server.

What does it matter if a PvE server does not have a warmode? How does that have any bearing on the discussion? The mere existence of the feature doesn't magically make this some sort "forced feature" that players must accept. They are still opting into this mode. Quit taking agency away from players and trying to absolve them of responsibility for their part in their negative PvP experience. Warmode players and PvP-flagging players on a PvE server are unarguably, objectively the FIRST line of defense against being ganked themselves. End of discussion.

Your points are 1. irrelevant, and 2. deliberately misrepresenting. No, this problem is NOT TurtleWoW specific.

Heine wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:54 am

Today you are camped, tomorrow you will camp.
Do not act like its something disasterous, i've experiensed classic phase2 as well.

No, I will not camp, because I am not a child. You entirely missed the point of what you cited. I am aware it is not the end of the world, even if it is incredibly frustrating. The point was to illustrate to these people who will be ganked and suffer a 120 second inconvenience and then go onto world and forums and begin days-long crusade against PvP that they are absolutely blowing things out of proportion.

If you want to make an argument for removing Warmode as it is, I 100% support you. PvE benefits have no place in PvP and despite what the team says to the contrary, they are objectively wrong from the standpoint of a game design philosophy. All it creates is PvE diehards reluctantly flagging themselves for PvP and then building a wholly negative experience of PvP and, perhaps, the community, justifiably so or not.

However, do not try to misrepresent blue players killing flagged players is in anyway exclusive to Turtle WoW. I realize everyone here, like me, probably never played on an actual PvE server in 18 years, or it was so long ago that this behavior of the flagging mechanic is in ancient memory, but this is 100% how PvP on PvE servers has always worked.

Thank you redmagejoe for your arguments and posts. You speak what I cant formulate.

Furthermore, what is even the point of mentioning that warmode doesn't exist on other servers? Is it to imply that the problem is you cannot unflag from PvP on a whim? Is the implication meant to be that, had you the ability to unflag, you would immediately type /pvp the moment you saw another player? That's not how that works either, as you still have to wait 5 minutes after unflagging to actually turn blue. You would not in any way be safe from a gank, with the only difference here being that you conveniently have some sort of excuse to hide behind.

If I'm being honest, I find this no PvP desired mentality of some warmode players rather scummy, more so even than gankers. 30% experience is so important to these players, yet they want absolutely no drawback to the benefit to the point where they absolutely would toggle PvP off if they could on a whim. It makes their complaints even more disingenuous and honestly I cannot sympathize with these players one bit. If you don't want to be ganked, turn off warmode. Quit raising such a stink about a shitty feature and just don't use it.

Voluntarily opting into PvP on a PvE server suggests that you're one of these masochistic people who enjoys precisely the sorts of things I described a few posts back. It suggests that you love the possibility of being camped for an hour, you love 60s rolling in and stomping on you, and you love having control over your play session ripped out of your hands. If you do not enjoy any of these things, then why have you voluntarily opted in? Are you new to World of Warcraft? Are you completely unfamiliar with the two decades-old nature of world PvP? Do you believe that other players are obligated to ignore you?

If you're being ganked and don't want to turn off warmode, the other solution is to group up with other same faction players who are also warmode, or maybe even group up with some that aren't warmode but are willing to PVP and have your back. This is what you'd do on a PVP server.

A big problem is also that crossfaction players can be stalked thru /who tab.
and every no lifer camper can stalk their victims.

that should change. Alliance/Horde shuldnt see where the other faction players are so ez imo.

PEACE!!

Mac wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:18 am

If you're being ganked and don't want to turn off warmode, the other solution is to group up with other same faction players who are also warmode, or maybe even group up with some that aren't warmode but are willing to PVP and have your back. This is what you'd do on a PVP server.

It seems you are missing the point like this gamerdad above spamming walls of text.
Whatever, i have zero problems disabling this meme mode.

Enjoy your dead outdoor scene because currently warmode is poorly implemented.
Fun fact - for those who really want pvp activating wm is the worst choice.

Heine wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:24 am

It seems you are missing the point like this gamerdad above spamming walls of text.
Whatever, i have zero problems disabling this meme mode.

Enjoy your dead outdoor scene because currently warmode is poorly implemented.
Fun fact - for those who really want pvp activating wm is the worst choice.

How have I missed the point? This is the issue you put forward, in your own words:

Heine wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:30 pm

My current warmode experience so far:

- unflagged mage casting pyroblast waiting for me to get low, i cant attack him before its too late
- rogue caught me at mob with 10% hp and finished, when i found him for a revenge within next 3 minutes he is pve-ing unflagged spamming /lol at me

Why unflagged for pvp players are able to attack warmode at all ? Or why arent they pvp marked for the next 1-2 days as punishment for their violent actions ?
Currently people just bully warmoded characters.

That issue would be resolved by either turning off warmode or grouping up. The first solution prevents them from attacking you at all, and the second provides immediate revenge when your group retaliates (or they'd see your group and not attack in the first case).

Heine has already conceded this discussion, resorting to strawman and ad hominem to try to dismiss and trivialize completely valid points, despite the fact that we agree on warmode being poorly implemented.

Do not bother to reply to them, just let this thread die as it should. There's no further logic or reason to be forced into these people's skulls. They can't read "walls of text" because they don't have the attention span to engage in actual discussions, and they just want a soapbox to bellow their gripes upon.