Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

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Aubreykun
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Aubreykun » Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:09 am

Xudo wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:11 am
Aubreykun wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:15 am OK. I don't think normal levellers "should be competitive" in BGs.
They should not be equal. They should be competitive.
[snip]

Without enchants, twink has same survivability, but much higher damage output.

If you dedicate some time, you will be better than someone who just joined. If you dedicate a lot, then you even more better with special buttons like second life with Furbolg pouch, arena trinket.
With better gear you get more power, but not more survivability.
The fact is you won't be 3-4 times more powerful like it is now.
Yes, I don't see a problem with twinks being 3-4x more powerful. It takes a lot of investment and the cap being so high means it's an interesting thing for people to enjoy with the game.
Again, if you want to PvP at-level with more of an even keel, then do wpvp. You can easily lock your XP and roam around ambushing people, because twinks are generally inside BGs.

Also your equipment line for the "full bis" is wrong. BiS has a lot more stamina - Lucky Fishing Hat, Talbar Mantle, Nat Pagle's Extreme Anglin' Boots, Legionnaire's Band, and two cruel barbs (or cruel barb and shadowfang.) Arena grand master also has the clicky for the damage shield that makes you basically unkillable for its duration - dunno why you said it doesn't grant "more survivability."

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:38 pm

Some time ago I opened a bug about ability to apply Rugged Armor Kit to low level gear https://github.com/slowtorta/turtlewow- ... ssues/5002
It was fixed and now I checked is it working as described.
I picked Cadet Vest from AH and tried to apply Rugged Armor Kit. I get error "Target is too low level".

It means that it is possible to limit enchants by level of the gear. So I kindly ask to apply gear limit to all enchants, not only to armor patches.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:27 am

I think it is important topic to deserve monthly bump.

Existing enchants should be dispelled and new high level enchants should not be applied to low level equipment.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Ibux
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Ibux » Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:20 am

they should buff low level enchants. similarly to how they buffed kits. make it feel worth getting them. then more people will also make more us of enchants during leveling. bet there is lots of enchants you could just remove completely because no one ever uses them.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:56 am

Ibux wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:20 am they should buff low level enchants. similarly to how they buffed kits. make it feel worth getting them. then more people will also make more us of enchants during leveling. bet there is lots of enchants you could just remove completely because no one ever uses them.
One of the reasons, why noone uses low level enchants is that you can apply high-level enchants. When people ever care about enchants, they don't bother with bad ones. They go for best ones.

While I agree that list of enchants can be expanded and have added list of possible low level enchants in this thread viewtopic.php?p=27363#p27363
I insist only on restriction of high-level enchants on low level characters. This is most important thing to be done. Everything else is welcomed, but not required.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Fri May 17, 2024 3:11 pm

Monthly bump. Fixing this issue will improve desirability of low level enchanting services and mats and also make low level pvp more attractive to normal people.

Please like first post if you agree with it.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:52 am

Monthly bump
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Fri Jul 19, 2024 8:55 am

Monthly bump
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:23 am

I have manage to enchant Fortitude of the Scourge (naxx enchant) on my Rough Bronze Shoulders and I think it is hillarious.
Image
Arcanums and those naxx enchants absolutely should be nerfed for low level items.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Springboards
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Springboards » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:27 pm

its only 160 hp its no big deal esp when facing other twinks, server is 6 years old plenty of twinks now

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Zvyrhol
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Zvyrhol » Tue Nov 12, 2024 9:11 pm

Springboards wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:27 pm its only 160 hp its no big deal esp when facing other twinks, server is 6 years old plenty of twinks now
Gate-keeping casuals who randomly sign up for battlegrounds in low level range isn't good thing. Twinks shouldn't have such big advantage.

Ziban
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Ziban » Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:28 am

I'd prefer we just made Battlegrounds 'No Twinks', and enforced it via deletion of accounts.

Traintech
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Traintech » Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:16 am

I have always wondered why this seems like such a big deal to some. Boxers and UFC fighters have weight classes. Many games have power scores or other metrics to help more evenly match players. There is a reason that it's not advisable to join at the bottom of the bracket.

I am only just now getting my twink online and I get dunked on pretty hard. PVP happens. I used to play a game called Robocraft and they had the idea of canning the "bracket" altogether because PVP happened. They still sort of had a system but they just hid the numbers and it never was the same. If you don't have enough players to queue up, that's also an issue.

It would be nice if you could pre-made and get back to back queues but restricting chants seems a bit extreme to me.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:54 am

Traintech wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:16 am I have always wondered why this seems like such a big deal to some. Boxers and UFC fighters have weight classes. Many games have power scores or other metrics to help more evenly match players. There is a reason that it's not advisable to join at the bottom of the bracket.

I am only just now getting my twink online and I get dunked on pretty hard. PVP happens. I used to play a game called Robocraft and they had the idea of canning the "bracket" altogether because PVP happened. They still sort of had a system but they just hid the numbers and it never was the same. If you don't have enough players to queue up, that's also an issue.

It would be nice if you could pre-made and get back to back queues but restricting chants seems a bit extreme to me.
Imagine you are normal player who is interested in joining bg.
- Hmm. I can join pvp in 10-19 brackets. I think I should prepare somehow. What should I do?
- Fine I leveled to 19, trained all my class spells, bought 10 healing potions, I got 2 speed potions from quest in Barrens, I visited WC and RFC and got some gear there. I also bought some green shoulders with stamina.
- What? Warriors with 2k hp. How did they do this?
- So I have to spend like 400 gold to ENCHNANT my gear to survive at all. Screw this, I'll just go level to 60.

I think it is fine that you stop xp and go dungeons and craft for good gear to prepare. But I absolutely not agree with high level enchants on this gear.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Bugranger
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Bugranger » Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:56 pm

Xudo wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:54 am
Traintech wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:16 am I have always wondered why this seems like such a big deal to some. Boxers and UFC fighters have weight classes. Many games have power scores or other metrics to help more evenly match players. There is a reason that it's not advisable to join at the bottom of the bracket.

I am only just now getting my twink online and I get dunked on pretty hard. PVP happens. I used to play a game called Robocraft and they had the idea of canning the "bracket" altogether because PVP happened. They still sort of had a system but they just hid the numbers and it never was the same. If you don't have enough players to queue up, that's also an issue.

It would be nice if you could pre-made and get back to back queues but restricting chants seems a bit extreme to me.
Imagine you are normal player who is interested in joining bg.
- Hmm. I can join pvp in 10-19 brackets. I think I should prepare somehow. What should I do?
- Fine I leveled to 19, trained all my class spells, bought 10 healing potions, I got 2 speed potions from quest in Barrens, I visited WC and RFC and got some gear there. I also bought some green shoulders with stamina.
- What? Warriors with 2k hp. How did they do this?
- So I have to spend like 400 gold to ENCHNANT my gear to survive at all. Screw this, I'll just go level to 60.

I think it is fine that you stop xp and go dungeons and craft for good gear to prepare. But I absolutely not agree with high level enchants on this gear.
Enchantment effects are available to everyone, so everyone is on equal terms. The only question is how much time should be spent not on whining, but on farming

Shenzy
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Shenzy » Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:15 pm

I hope this shitty post never even gets into consideration. There is no exploit to be fixed. This is what vanilla wow have always been. Enchants should stay as is.

In the same manner you are asking levelers to be put in a different BG than twinks, I'm sure you would want the same at 60 too. Put players with t3/pvp gear in a different bracket so your freshly dinged 60 with ZF gear won't feel useless.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:03 pm

Bugranger wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:56 pm
Xudo wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:54 am Imagine you are normal player who is interested in joining bg.
- Hmm. I can join pvp in 10-19 brackets. I think I should prepare somehow. What should I do?
- Fine I leveled to 19, trained all my class spells, bought 10 healing potions, I got 2 speed potions from quest in Barrens, I visited WC and RFC and got some gear there. I also bought some green shoulders with stamina.
- What? Warriors with 2k hp. How did they do this?
- So I have to spend like 400 gold to ENCHNANT my gear to survive at all. Screw this, I'll just go level to 60.

I think it is fine that you stop xp and go dungeons and craft for good gear to prepare. But I absolutely not agree with high level enchants on this gear.
Enchantment effects are available to everyone, so everyone is on equal terms. The only question is how much time should be spent not on whining, but on farming
Can't agree with "equal terms". You can earn much more gold per hour playing lvl 60 than level 19.
So leveling players have to spend much more time to earn same amount of money.
Even if leveller enchant his items, he will replace them very soon, because he will get new items from quests or late dungeons. So time spent on farming will be wasted.

I personally made pretty good twink and enchanted it as I wanted. But I understand that this power should be nerfed.

I have seen battlegrounds in WotLK. It was constantly popping and full of different people. Why? Because no twink would enter this battleground and normal players decided "hey, I can just join and play".
I really like to play battlegrounds, not just endlessly wait offline with my super gear and worldbuffs. Thats why I think more players should play them. And to achieve that, most important imbalance factor should be eliminated.

Shenzy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:15 pm In the same manner you are asking levelers to be put in a different BG than twinks, I'm sure you would want the same at 60 too.
Well, no. I think that effort in getting good dungeon gear should pay off. If you spent more time, you should be more powerful than others. But there should be power ceiling.
In other threads I offer different progression for lvl 60 players, which encourage doing battleground objectives instead of afking in av.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Bugranger
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Bugranger » Wed Nov 13, 2024 5:29 pm

Xudo wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:03 pm
Bugranger wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:56 pm
Xudo wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:54 am Imagine you are normal player who is interested in joining bg.
- Hmm. I can join pvp in 10-19 brackets. I think I should prepare somehow. What should I do?
- Fine I leveled to 19, trained all my class spells, bought 10 healing potions, I got 2 speed potions from quest in Barrens, I visited WC and RFC and got some gear there. I also bought some green shoulders with stamina.
- What? Warriors with 2k hp. How did they do this?
- So I have to spend like 400 gold to ENCHNANT my gear to survive at all. Screw this, I'll just go level to 60.

I think it is fine that you stop xp and go dungeons and craft for good gear to prepare. But I absolutely not agree with high level enchants on this gear.
Enchantment effects are available to everyone, so everyone is on equal terms. The only question is how much time should be spent not on whining, but on farming
Can't agree with "equal terms". You can earn much more gold per hour playing lvl 60 than level 19.
So leveling players have to spend much more time to earn same amount of money.
Even if leveller enchant his items, he will replace them very soon, because he will get new items from quests or late dungeons. So time spent on farming will be wasted.

I personally made pretty good twink and enchanted it as I wanted. But I understand that this power should be nerfed.

I have seen battlegrounds in WotLK. It was constantly popping and full of different people. Why? Because no twink would enter this battleground and normal players decided "hey, I can just join and play".
I really like to play battlegrounds, not just endlessly wait offline with my super gear and worldbuffs. Thats why I think more players should play them. And to achieve that, most important imbalance factor should be eliminated.
I have bad news for you, I was able to make a twink here with all the ench without a high level character. All I have here is two level 19 characters, stop making excuses it looks really pathetic

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:38 am

Bugranger wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 5:29 pm I have bad news for you, I was able to make a twink here with all the ench without a high level character. All I have here is two level 19 characters, stop making excuses it looks really pathetic
I too made 19 twink without high level character. I know how much effort it takes and I think it wrong.
Why noone enchant Crusader on his weapon to go Deadmines? People just gather and go.
Why people have to enchant BIS gear to participate in 10-19 then?

If you trying to insult me, I assume you don't have any real arguments against this change.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Traintech
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Traintech » Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:46 pm

Again, no real answers here. The enchants are out there for anyone and I am sure most twinks have support from a guild or main. I leveled to 60, and am working on my twinks... I don't have deep pockets but at 29, I was pretty competitive against some people who had everything from summons to potions. I still need to get some pieces but that's part of the journey. Out of curiosity, What's the main reason people join if they aren't even halfway geared? One of the games I played, we were undermanned and even then, a 21 and a 23... I mean take your swing and all... but that's not going to turn out well...

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Zvyrhol
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Zvyrhol » Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:04 pm

Traintech wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:46 pm Again, no real answers here. The enchants are out there for anyone and I am sure most twinks have support from a guild or main. I leveled to 60, and am working on my twinks... I don't have deep pockets but at 29, I was pretty competitive against some people who had everything from summons to potions. I still need to get some pieces but that's part of the journey. Out of curiosity, What's the main reason people join if they aren't even halfway geared? One of the games I played, we were undermanned and even then, a 21 and a 23... I mean take your swing and all... but that's not going to turn out well...
I think OP's idea is to make lv 10-19 battlegrounds more appealing to casuals who randomly join during their journey, not to complain about high level enchant prices. Would casual player want to fight against twink that uses Naxx enchant that gives 16 stamina? Certainly twinks will always be in this game, however, some enchants simply exploit casuals and give them a reason to avoid low level PvP.

Remylebeau
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Remylebeau » Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm

Xudo wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:59 pm Currently you can enchant item with enchant of any level. Like 30 spell damage on white BoE dagger of 1 lvl.

My proposal is to fix that exploit somehow.

Brainstorming led to multiple possible implementations:
1. TBC way. Add "Only usable on items level 35 and above" requirement. Like Rugged Armor Kit has now.
With this change, something should be done with existing applied enchants. I think that most fair way would be on character login, strip those enchants and send materials by mail.
2. Reduce effect if enchant applied on low level item. Like it is done with buffs. Like you cast rank 7 MotW, but player of lvl 17 receive rank 3. You apply 100 hp on chest, but player gets 25 hp enchant.
Mativh wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:16 pm That is why high level enchants should either be restricted to high level items while lower levels would get a lesser xyz equivalent of those or new low level enchants... or enchants should be weakened if used by a lower level player, similarly how spell power coefficient loses 3% potency every level below 20.
Problem with existing enchants can be solved exactly like in point 1. Strip and mail them.
Or they can be replaced by low level couterparts too.
3. Increase required level of item if it has high-level enchant. If you apply Rugged Armor Kit with item lvl 35 requirement, then item require 35 lvl too.
To equip enchanted item character should have level greater or equal to enchant level.
Level requirement is calculated by formula:
Level = (enchanting skill required to learn recipe) / 5 - 11.

Fiery weapon required 265 enchanting to learn. It means that weapon enchanted with fiery weapon should require lvl 265/5-11=42 to equip. Even if weapon itselft requires 19 lvl.
Players with level 19 could use enchants which require 150 enchanting skill to learn.

I don't want to add "item level" idea to the game. Thats why I propose to change level requirements of a items. It will scale better. Similar to engineering or skinning.

With this change, all enchanted items should get increased level and unequipped. Enchant remains intact, but you have to level to equip item.
4. Disable this enchant even if applied. If item level don't match actual requirement, then enchant don't add its value.
It is probably simplest solution. It works for already applied enchants and for any new one.
Though it might be unintuitive to see no error message. If people don't know about this, they will write countless bugreports.

Without level restrictions we have twinks with 19 lvl enchanted like they are 60 lvl. I like playing battlegrounds on low levels. I am absolutely understand the rules "get your best gear, enchant it to max and go play". It is a bit hard to get good enchants playing only low level and I accept that challenge.

But I think that using high level enchants on a low level characters is a flaw in design.

My reasons:
1. This change fits a concept of using consumables and buffs of appropriate level. All potions require specific player level. Low level players can't drink high level potions. All grenades require specific engineering skill. Low level players can't use high level grenades. If you buff player with high-level Power word: Shield, he gets buff of appropriate level.
2. This change will reduce the gap between twinks and non-twinks. It will lead to more fair play.
3. This change will improve market of low level enchantment reagents and services. Currently noone is offering low level enchants. Noone needs that enchants either. People level enchanting by enchanting single item over and over.
4. Blizz tried to change that flaw in Burning Crusade with item level requirement. You could not enchant Mongoose on weapon with item level lower than 35. Though they have added this requirement only to BC enchants.
I logged in just to respond to this. We have been down this road on retail, it is a terrible place. What are you going
to say to someone that just finished their first twink, just to have it all taken away? Are you going to give them hundreds of gold back? Or are you going to give thousands of gold to a veteran that built many twinks?
I came to this server specifically in the hopes of being able to twink again, which was the most fun I've ever had in retail, despite my constant frustrations with members of my own faction that were happy to join pvp to be little more than target practice for the other side.

The problem isn't that twinks exist. The problem is a lack of players, of both twinks and normal players.
It is not an exploit, it was allowed on retail for years and years, and the same can be said now for Twow.
I reject your premise, it would not fix everything to nerf enchant because of twinks. There would still be normal players that for whatever reason do not level to max (19 in the 10-19 bracket). There will still be people careless with how they gear.
Twinks will still have advantages, they will have engineering items and grenades, more knowledge about buffs and secret items, and most importantly, the drive to get those items and buffs.

I don't mind saying that there should be more and better enchants for lower levels, especially for casters. But going down the slippery slope of "it's not fair, so let's ruin all the fun" does not end well. Nor does it really make sense. If it is okay to have max level enchants after level 35 or 45, what is stopping those brackets from having all these normal players right now?

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Fri Nov 15, 2024 4:14 am

Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm I logged in just to respond to this. We have been down this road on retail, it is a terrible place.
Retail practically killed twinks by making progress in levels inevitable. I don't propose this.
I want twinks to exist. If you stop xp, spend some time doing dungeons, enchant with low level enchants, you can spend as much time on battlegrounds as you want. When you are bored at 19, you don't lose hundreds of gold by progressing to 29. Naxx enchant on shoulders lock you on this bracket forever and this is not good outcome.
Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm What are you going to say to someone that just finished their first twink, just to have it all taken away? Are you going to give them hundreds of gold back? Or are you going to give thousands of gold to a veteran that built many twinks?
I think most fair solution will be:
Refund as items Arcanums, Zandalar Signets, naxx enchants. You can sell or enchant them to someone else.
Refund enchanting materials for profession enchants.
They will lose some gold on tips, but it is not very high. Large part of cost is materials.
Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pmdespite my constant frustrations with members of my own faction that were happy to join pvp to be little more than target practice for the other side.
They were characters of twinks of the other side.
You run 2 windows of wow. 1 with twink, other with random 10 lvl character and queue from both windows.
Then you play as twink and just do suicide run as expendable character. Simple as that.
And I am not against that trick. If you remove that trick, amount of battlegrounds will be even less. Even it is fishy, it serves good purpose.
Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm The problem isn't that twinks exist. The problem is a lack of players, of both twinks and normal players.
Lets go deeper. Why there is lack of players in 10-19 bracket on a server with several thousands of people online?
Go ask people to join battleground. What answers would you get?
"You trying to lure me to slaughter?"
"I don't have good gear to join"
"I don't have time for this"
and all variations of those answers.

I played on some fresh private classic server right before Blizz made their first classic server. Advertisement was huge, so people joined private servers to try it before official launch.
Surprisingly, battlegrounds of low levels were happening all the time. I leveled my character to 39, geared in SM and start to queue bg. I spent 3 weeks enjoing good fights.

When Tel'Abim was launched, then battlegrounds of 1-1, 2-9, 10-19 were happening all the time. Why?
My bet is that players knew that there will be no twinks and they can just join and play.

Conclusion: twinks spoils the fun for themselves.
Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm I reject your premise, it would not fix everything to nerf enchant because of twinks. There would still be normal players that for whatever reason do not level to max (19 in the 10-19 bracket). There will still be people careless with how they gear.
Twinks will still have advantages, they will have engineering items and grenades, more knowledge about buffs and secret items, and most importantly, the drive to get those items and buffs.
All this is fine. World will be mostly the same without high level enchants. But it will be better world without 1k hp difference between normal player and twink player. I don't even mind secret items like AGM or FMP as long as their effect can be dispelled. I don't mind "secret" items like fishing hat and boots because they actually can be acquired by specific event open for anyone. And their stat budget is not so huge to make a difference.
In the same time, I strongly against Hakkari items, because they require very very specific preparations. BTW, they were nerfed (by adding level requirement).
Remylebeau wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:09 pm If it is okay to have max level enchants after level 35 or 45, what is stopping those brackets from having all these normal players right now?
That is really good question, thank you.
First of all, 30-39 and 40-49 are happening. So the question is in amounts of players.
I assume that relative amount of pvp players compared to whole server population is very low.
Amount of players in those brackets is much lower than for 10-19 too. Some characters get abandoned naturally.
So after those natural gates, amount of people is low as it is.
Gear guide, more advertisement could help, but won't dramatically improve situation.
Ability to hold at each x9 level to pvp will help, but enchants bind all pvp players at 19 level forever.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:27 am

Ziban wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:28 am I'd prefer we just made Battlegrounds 'No Twinks', and enforced it via deletion of accounts.
Problem here is: how would you differentiate twink and non-twink?
Retail solution was: if you stop xp, you get to another league. It effectively eliminated culture of twinking in WotLK.

In the same time, on private servers (not only on Turtle), ability to stop xp and be in same bracket with everyone allowed guys like me and Bugranger to make their twinks staying on lvl 19.
I mean, ability to stop xp helped non-twinks to prepare for battlegrounds. So it is wrong way to differentiate.

Thats why I propose to adjust rules to help regular pvpers even more - by removing excessive time you need to spend outside of battleground to prepare for that battleground.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Ziban
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Ziban » Sun Nov 17, 2024 6:34 am

Xudo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:27 am
Problem here is: how would you differentiate twink and non-twink?
It gets done exactly the same way as identifying a gold transfer as legitimate or illegitimate.

After the first couple of mains get banned, the whining on the forums will be epic, and will serve as a warning not to try and cheat via twinking.

Yeah, there's half measures that might be effective, like putting level caps on enchants and giving xp for kills in battlegrounds, but at the end of the day if we want people in BGs then twinking needs to be destroyed.

Turtle did it with GDKP dungeon runs. They could do it with twinking.

Of course, the gang of cynical, lying hypocrites known as the PvP community will be absolutely insistent that what *they* do isn't twinking, and they should be allowed to keep doing it.

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:17 am

Ziban wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 6:34 am
Xudo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:27 am
Problem here is: how would you differentiate twink and non-twink?
It gets done exactly the same way as identifying a gold transfer as legitimate or illegitimate.
You mean that this decision will be purely based on mods opinion?
I am afraid that without strict rules when to ban and when not to ban, it will be even more discouraging.
Imagine you made lvl19 char, bought him some blue items and leveled engineering. You don't have much time to level him up, so you stuck on lvl 19 battlegrounds and reach rank 3.
At a time when you get your rank 3, all your characters get banned because of "you twink".

If I would not be able to predict when your character get banned, I would just skip this content entirely because losing main is super harsh punishment.

Other option - mods might solve this like they solving AFKers now. I mean - they won't involve because "no evidence".
It will look like there are rules, but most of people find a loophole in them and keep playing as before the change.

Also, any rules enforced by mods require more staff to support those rules. While twinking is negative for PvP health, server will live fine with and without them. I mean, current situation is not so bad to hire more people to hunt for twinks.

I am totally sure that rules regarding twinking should be technical and unavoidable. Level restrictions for enchants is possible to implement. It already applied to Armor patches.
Last edited by Xudo on Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Springboards
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Springboards » Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:28 am

the only way to fix that is to make u give exp like on retail

not that u couldnt make throw-away "twinks" full of green monkey gear and still smash with them, no dungeons touched whatsoever

5/5 monkey chest,5/5 belt, 3/3(wouldnt use 3/4 or 4/4 etc) glove, 3/2 wrist, 4/4 boot, 5/5 or 5/6 axe, 3/3cloak, 4/4 cloth shoulder, 4/4 belt and cheapo 3 stam-1 agil enchants

all of this is green and attainable at lvl 18+ so i would have a lvl 18 hunter(or any class for that matter) ready for action. sure it wouldnt have the power of a full 19 twink but it would be enough to smash faces. First week of nostalrius when it was hard to do dungeons and you could not lock exp we did just that and we absolutely facerolled the alliance with all green gear(greens are mostly better itemized than blues there is no filler spirit stat)

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Tue Nov 19, 2024 6:36 am

Springboards wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:28 am the only way to fix that is to make u give exp like on retail
Springboards wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2024 5:28 amso i would have a lvl 18 hunter(or any class for that matter) ready for action. sure it wouldnt have the power of a full 19 twink but it would be enough to smash faces.
For me those words contradict to each other. Like "give them xp to eliminate twinks, but we still be able to twink in boe greens". I agree with you that twinking as a phenomenon will exist in any set of rules. Difference will be only in its form.

I think that making "little endgame" every x9 level is more fun than buying throwaway gear for x8-x9 levels.
Little endgame will encourage people to go dungeons and complete quests in world.
Meanwhile "just buy good boe green" is totally solo project which don't involve world outside of AH.

Assuming that turtle wow focuses on expanding whole world, I think "little endgame" scenario will fit its philosophy.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:50 am

After some thinking, I found that "bad" design here is not in enchants themselves.
Bad design here is that you don't need to play battleground while you are grinding gold for those enchants.
It is problem of whole Vanilla: you need to spend insane amount of time outside battleground to be ready to play battleground.
You literally have no option to join in shitty gear and overcome powerful opponents on your way to perfect gear.
Whole PvP system forces you to PvE first.

If everyone would be able to get naxx enchant by playing lvl 19 battlegrounds, then nerfing enchants will not be needed.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Xudo
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:34 am

Time to bump this 2 years old thread made by me.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:00 pm

Xudo wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:50 am After some thinking, I found that "bad" design here is not in enchants themselves.
Bad design here is that you don't need to play battleground while you are grinding gold for those enchants.
It is problem of whole Vanilla: you need to spend insane amount of time outside battleground to be ready to play battleground.
You literally have no option to join in shitty gear and overcome powerful opponents on your way to perfect gear.
Whole PvP system forces you to PvE first.

If everyone would be able to get naxx enchant by playing lvl 19 battlegrounds, then nerfing enchants will not be needed.
Would be a way of doing it for sure. I feel like that would also suck though 'cause then you're just stuck going against juiced up twinks in their naxx enchanted gear for you to sooner or later end up getting the previously mentioned JUICE that finally makes you equal to the folks who had gold and time to dump into an alt. Also, you should probably edit the initial post to include this if you haven't already. Could be an alternative solution that would get seen more than this post in particular.
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:08 am

Bigsmerf wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:00 pm Would be a way of doing it for sure. I feel like that would also suck though 'cause then you're just stuck going against juiced up twinks in their naxx enchanted gear for you to sooner or later end up getting the previously mentioned JUICE that finally makes you equal to the folks who had gold and time to dump into an alt. Also, you should probably edit the initial post to include this if you haven't already. Could be an alternative solution that would get seen more than this post in particular.
You right, added paragraph about earning naxx-level enchants to first post.
Assuming that WoW is MMO, you have to farm for something. It might be gold or marks or those enchants themselves.
Good outcome will be that farming by pvp will increase pvp population.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Murci » Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm

I see the topic different.

An average player is not competitive on lvl 60 Battlegrounds either. They are one and two shotted also. So if I follow the logic then the endgame PVP has to be nerfed also.

I know people and with my first character as 29 and as 39 I was farming to afford half of the enchants and the BIS close gear. It is work but its also affordable, and you can manage with that also. So people who take time to get the items from rare mobs instances needs to get rewarded. Simply because they are the motors of the low lvl battlegrounds.

I take an extreme example. Why should be a raid dressing up in greens be competitve in AQ40?
Also a lvl 30 group should not be competitive against a 39 group.

If you have a good team that worth much more.
With good timing any shaman druid or rouge can score, no enchant is needed there in 29 and 39 brackets.
Or last time I saw my lvl 30 bud summoning all the ZOO on Arathi Basin and scaring the people away when he takes Lumbermill, and again one full enchanted player can not domintate the whole map.


I would not nerf, I would add to the exalted rewards some enchants or items what are worth to farm, or just free up the Arathi tabard for lower levels. Much more easier than touch and rework so many things.


Until now the speedy googles were nerfed entirely, and nothing added in exchange, so many hours of racing wasted for many people. The easiest way for this balance is basically taking away the enchants what would kill instantly the community and the PVP scene, because then you just take away the fun an many many hours are going into waste.

Give something at exalted rep what can balance a little bit, but dont take away the fun and people`s invested time.
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Roleplay: viewtopic.php?t=15868

Low lvl PVP: viewtopic.php?t=15870

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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Xudo » Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:46 pm

Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm An average player is not competitive on lvl 60 Battlegrounds either. They are one and two shotted also. So if I follow the logic then the endgame PVP has to be nerfed also.
Lvl 60 battlegrounds are clownshow. It is even not my own opinion. I read it often from different people here, on forums.
Lvl 60 pvp died after AQ40 release.
Gear should matter, but not to that extent that some get one-two shotted. I sincerely thing that endgame PvP should be completely reworked. Or atleast give PvPers enchants for better survival.
Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pmSo people who take time to get the items from rare mobs instances needs to get rewarded. Simply because they are the motors of the low lvl battlegrounds.
...
I take an extreme example. Why should be a raid dressing up in greens be competitve in AQ40?
Also a lvl 30 group should not be competitive against a 39 group.
I totally agree with this. Gear should matter. Time spent should matter.
BUT time spend on the battleground should matter even more.
In my perfect world, we should gather gear in dungeons and upgrade it by after long time spent in battlegrounds.

Also I don't understand why I should be able to wear naxx shoulder enchant while I haven't raided this dungeon.
Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm I know people and with my first character as 29 and as 39 I was farming to afford half of the enchants and the BIS close gear. It is work but its also affordable, and you can manage with that also.
You grind all your stuff outside of battlegrounds and this is main problem of twinking.
Like 80% of people prepare their character for 2-3 months and just don't play when it is finished.
Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm If you have a good team that worth much more.
With good timing any shaman druid or rouge can score, no enchant is needed there in 29 and 39 brackets.
Or last time I saw my lvl 30 bud summoning all the ZOO on Arathi Basin and scaring the people away when he takes Lumbermill, and again one full enchanted player can not domintate the whole map.
AB is different. single twink can be simply avoided by other team. WSG is pure pwnge. Single OP individual mean a lot.
Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm I would not nerf, I would add to the exalted rewards some enchants or items what are worth to farm, or just free up the Arathi tabard for lower levels. Much more easier than touch and rework so many things.
This is one of possible solutions which I listed in first post.
Murci wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 6:17 pm Until now the speedy googles were nerfed entirely, and nothing added in exchange, so many hours of racing wasted for many people. The easiest way for this balance is basically taking away the enchants what would kill instantly the community and the PVP scene, because then you just take away the fun an many many hours are going into waste.

Give something at exalted rep what can balance a little bit, but dont take away the fun and people`s invested time.
Speedy Goggles and Hakkari items was absolutely overpowered shit. They deserve to be nerfed even if some people spent insane time abusing that "race" event with two windows.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Snigery
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Re: Nerf high level enchants on low level gear

Post by Snigery » Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:17 pm

Someone said this would ruin twinking. I had a WoTLK twink rogue. I think there were such limitations on higher level professions then. I was still able to build a good twink on existing enchant allowances and dungeon gear. I was not aware of such lack restrictions, but i think there should be some because it wont ruin building a strong character. Most people dont acquire all the beat gear in a bracket anyway.

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