[PALADIN] Class, Skill, Talent Balance and Improvement

[Unchallenged]

Looking To Balance and DeCluster Paladins Talent Tree with Small QoL Improvements, While Keeping it Fun and Vanilla.

These suggestions are to be taken with a grain of salt, and not looking to be ALL implemented.

Some of these ideas are FUN, with the ideas of many in the Paladin Channel in Discord
https://discord.com/channels/4666224558 ... 1571171328

I just hope to provide a list, that may offer additional ideas that could be implemented in the future!

Updated Tree w/ 31 Pt [Zeal]


Updated Tree w/ 31 Pt [Zone of Truth]



-===== SPELL CHANGES =====-
★ Blessing Durations: To Be Like All Other Classes. 15 minutes normal 30 for greater.
1. QoL Improvement To Semi-Match Other Classes.

-===== HOLY CHANGES; =====-
Holy Change 1 - v1.1
★ Eye for an Eye 2/2
-Talent has been moved from Row 4 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 2 of the Holy Talent tree.
All spells against you cause 5/10% of the damage to the caster as well. The damage of Eye for an Eye will not exceed 20% of paladins' total health.
1. Balance/Reduce Clutter Ret Tree.
2. Make talent viable to be picked up by anyone in PvE or PvP.
3. Update 1.1 to Lower %'s
Version - v1.0

-Talent has been moved from Row 4 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 2 of the Holy Talent tree.
All spells against you cause 7/15% of the damage to the caster as well. The damage of Eye for an Eye will not exceed 25% of paladins' total health.
1. Balance/Reduce Clutter Ret Tree.
2. Make talent viable to be picked up by anyone in PvE or PvP.

-===== PROTECTION CHANGES; =====-
Prot Change 1 - v1.1
★ Talent Update: Improved Devotion Aura 5/5
Provides Increases Devotion and Resistance Aura Bonuses By 14/28/42/56/70% and decreases damage taken by 2/4/6/8/10% and damage caused by 2/4/6/8/10%.
1. Devo Aura & Talent is Rarely used as it provides no scalability. Currently, 25% of 735 is 183 Armor for 5pts of a joke.
2. This change would add slightly more Improved Armor, increased resistances, and add a swappable 10% damage reduction aura.
3. Could be tuned to make it appealing for current/future content.
4. Updated 1.1 to remove 10% Flat Dmg Reduction, to OP?
5. Updated 1.1 to increase To Both Armor/Resistance
6. R7 Devo Aura is 735 Armor + 70% = ~514.5 Additional Armor.
7. Provides Options between a flat armor increase with devo, or scaling armor with anticipation.
Version - v1.0

Provides 2/4/6/8/10% Damage Reduction and Increases Armor Bonus of Devo Aura By 7/14/21/28/35%.
1. Devo Aura & Talent is Rarely used as it provides no scalability.
2. This change would add slightly more Improved Armor.
3. Could be tuned to make it appealing for current/future content.

Prot Change 2 - v1.1
★ Talent: Improved Righteous Fury 3/3
Increase the threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16/33/50%. In addition, Holy Shield has a 33/66/100% chance to make exorcism castable on nonplayers for 5 sec.
1. Bound this to require the use of Holy Shield.
2. This would allow Prot Paladins to "Holy Shield" prefight, and range pull.
3. Updated 1.1, 1Pt was to OP, and would often be used over 3/3.
4. Updated 1.1 To be based on the use of Holy Shield and require 3/3 for 100%.
Version - v1.0

Increase the threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16/33/50%. In addition, while under the effect of Righteous Fury Exorcism is now castable on all nonplayer targets, but always crit on demons and undead.
1. Bound this to require the use of Holy Shield.
2. This would allow Prot Paladins to "Holy Shield" prefight, and range pull.

Prot Change 3 - v1.0
★ Talent Update: Holy Shield 1/1
-Change from Spell, to Skill (Able to Be Used While Silenced)
-Removed from GCD.
1. Will act similarly to a warrior shield block.

Prot Change 4 - v1.0
★ Talent: Reckoning 5/5
Gives you a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to gain an extra attack after dealing an attack from a weapon swing, spell, or ability.
1. Reworked to rely less on being crit.
2. DEEP Prot would not make it available for Ret with Vengeance.
3. As Prot Paladins gear up for still makes this useful for threat generation.

Prot Change 5 - v1.0
★ Talent Update: Ardent Defender 1/1
Reduces all damage you take by 20% for 8 sec.
While Ardent Defender is active, the next attack that would otherwise kill you will instead bring you to 20% of your maximum health. In addition, while under the effect of Righteous Fury gives the Paladin mana when healed by other friendly targets' spells. The amount of mana gained is equal to 9% of the amount healed.
From the Feedback of Other Paladins.
2. As it is right now, not many Tankadins take talent as 35% is lackluster against raid bosses.
3. This is an OK talent when used under geared while running dungeons, but dropped later with gear.
4. It's an RNG game of chance whether it'll be useful or not, a significant amount of HP to even see a return in the first place.
5. Single target boss fights, 2% mana per block after recent changes to +hit modifiers Mana recovery is needed.
6. Mana Allows Holy shield / taunt uptime during Single target boss fights while trying to maintain threat.
In order to taunt it requires benediction (SoJ -170 mana, Judge -76 mana, SoR -170 mana) is 416 mana. To TAUNT.
7. Enemies/Bosses that cast vs hit can easily cause Prot to OOM, this would provide SOME mana to upkeep threat generation.

Prot Change X - v1.0 (Removed - Due to Consecration already Swipe/Cleave equivalent)
★ Talent Update: Improved Seal of Justice 3/3

Judgment of Justice now taunts your target to attack you but has no effect if the target is already attacking you and Seal of Justice now causes holy damage equal to 6/12/20% of your weapon damage to an enemy affecting up to 3 targets.
1. SoR is still a great single-target threat seal, but druids/warriors have swipe/cleave +thunderclap abilities.
2. This would provide a holy cleave-like ability at just 20% of weapon damage as holy to work Righteous Fury.
3. Prot Paladins use SoR as their tanking seal and often Judge to gain threat.
4. This is no longer the case as paladins keep judgment off CD, to be used in the event a taunt is needed.
5. Judgement is not often used as a tool to build additional threat on target, hidden behind a 10-second cd + GCD.
5. By integrating SoJ as the primary tanking seal, there will be no more GCD to swap seals, but judgment still be needed to taunt.

-===== RETRIBUTION CHANGES; =====-
Ret Change 1 - v1.0
★ T3 Talent Move/Update: Two-Hand Weapon Specialization 3/3
-Talent has been moved from Row 5 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 3 of the Ret talent tree.
Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 3/6/9% and reduces the amount of threat generated by 10/20/30% unless under the effect of Righteous Fury
1. Lv 20 Talent Tier;
Holy Receives (+ Healing)
Prot Receives (+Damage Absorption)
Ret SHOULD get (+2h Damage Increase), due to loss in Seal of Command at level 20.
2. Threat reduction by 30% here, unless RF is active

Ret Change 2 - v1.1
★ T4 Talent Move/Update: Repentance 1/1
-Talent moved from Row 7 of the Retribution Talent Tree to Row 5.
Puts the enemy target in a state of meditation, incapacitating them for up to 1min, 6 sec if player. Any damage caused will awaken the target. Usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, and Humanoids.
1. T5 Talent will allow Ret paladins a form of CC at lv 30+ for dungeon/raid control.
2. This does not allow for 31Holy, to get
3. This will still keep the 6 sec on Players.
4. Updated 1.1 to Row 5 to avoid access with 31 Pt Holy/Prot.
Version - v1.0

-Talent moved from Row 7 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 4.
Puts the enemy target in a state of meditation, incapacitating them for up to 1min, 6 sec if player. Any damage caused will awaken the target. Usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, and Humanoids.
1. T4 Talent will allow Ret paladins a form of CC at lv 25, while still keeping the 6sec on Players Still.

Ret Change 3 v1.2
★ Redone Talent: Vindication 3/3
Talent has been moved from Row 2 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 4 of the Ret talent tree.
Gives the Paladin damage attack a 5/10/15% chance to increase the time between enemy attacks by 10% for 10 sec.
1. Not a DPS buff, but utility talent early enough for Ret/Prot to take advantage of.
2. Not designed to enable any sort of bursting down ability.
3. Updated 1.1 Does not stack with other effects (Thunderclap, Thunderfury, etc.)
4. Updated 1.1 now is Great For Ret or Prot in Row 4.
Version - v1.1

Talent has been moved from Row 2 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 5 of the Ret talent tree.
Gives the Paladin damage attack a 5/10/15% chance to increase the attack speed of party members with 30 yards by 3% for 10 sec.
1. More sustained DPS on boss encounters.
2. Not designed to enable any sort of bursting down ability.
3. Does not stack with other Haste abilities (Bloodlust).
4. Reduced to 3%, and provides utility to party members.

Version - v1.0

Talent has been moved from Row 2 of the Retribution talent tree to Row 5 of the Ret talent tree.
Gives the Paladin damage attack a 5/10/15% chance to increase the attack speed of the Paladin by 10% for 10 sec.
1. More sustained DPS on boss encounters.
2. Not designed to enable any sort of bursting down ability.
3. Does not stack with other Haste abilities (Bloodlust)

Ret Change 4 - v1.0
★ Rank & Threat Update: Seal of Command
Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to X% of normal weapon damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 30 sec.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing X to X Holy damage, X to X if the target is stunned or incapacitated.

R1: 70% of normal weapon damage
R2: 72.5% of normal weapon damage
R3: 75% of normal weapon damage
R4: 77.5% of normal weapon damage
R5: 80% of normal weapon damage

1. Weapon Damage R1-R5 remains flat at 70%, this change encourages Ret Paladins to Rank Up Seal of Command(SoC).
2. This would tie in well with the suggested *Sanctified Command as R5 SoC would be incentivized.
3. Judgement damage does not need to be adjusted, as that is already scaled with rank.

Ret Change 5 - v1.1
★ Talent Update: Sanctified Command 2/2
Sanctified Command: Judgements will restore mana equal to 45/90% of the base mana cost of the Seal to you. Requires Seal of Command as a prerequisite talent and Gives your Seal of Command a 45/90% chance to resist dispel effects

1. WoW Vanilla Paladin Mana was consumed by (Seals) and rarely went oom because of mostly auto.
2. TWow has added; Crusader Strike, Holy Strike, and Consecration Baseline.
The new mana focus should be tuned toward using these available offensive abilities.
3. While Leveling Ret;
a. Paladins are not able to take advantage of Imp BoM, or BoM, and must use BoW to Maintain Combat Speed.
b. Ret Paladins gain new Seal Ranks, but they drain much of their mana (See 1. Old Vanilla Method) as this used to be their only mana dump outside of consecration.
c. Ret Paladins instead opt to downrank Seal of Command R1 from the start to conserve mana vs use the latest available.
4. End Game Paladins are NOT placed into Mana group during raids and are often paired with warriors/rogues with Wind Fury Making the mana for the group useless and Seal of Righteousness is often used making current talent useless.
5. IF there is no Windfury available, and Seal of Command is used again Rank 1 is used, this talent is skipped as it only provides 5/11 mana back per judge, making this talent not useful.
6. While raiding the bread and butter Seal of Command / Sanctified Command is not used as RET, and Judgement is rarely seen in dungeon groups and even raiding - the (RET) seal is essentially dead.
7. Making this 45%/90% to encourage Prot/Ret Paladins to use;
a. Highest Rank Available of all Seals after level 32+ to 60+
b. Bigger use on [Improved Judgement] and To Use Judgement on Cooldown.
c. Have better mana efficiency to use more TWoW added offensive abilities off cooldown.
d. This ties in changes to the improved SoC Rankings
8. Updated 1.1 to include mana returned from all seals, instead of just command.

"Potential" Ret Mana Consumption Attacks in 1 minute;
Normal Raid Rotation 3.8 Weapon;
SoW -> Judge -> SoR ->Holy Strike(0) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Holy Strike(1) (10 Seconds)
Holy Strike(1) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Holy Strike(2) (20 Seconds)
Holy Strike(2) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> Judge / SoR -> Holy Strike(3) (30 Seconds)
Holy Strike(3) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Holy Strike(4) (40 Seconds)
Holy Strike(4) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Holy Strike(5) (50 Seconds)
Holy Strike(5) -> CS -> Auto -> CS -> Auto -> Judge / SoR -> Holy Strike(6) (60 Seconds)

60 Seconds of Combat
SoW x1 | -170
SoR x3 | -510
Judge x3 | -228
CSR1 x16 | -400 vs CSR5 | -1,440
Holy Strike x6 | 1,290
Total Mana: 2,598 or 3,638 using CSR5, the difference is 1,040 Damage.

Honestly;

Right now, casting Judgement is wasting Mana Judge/Reseal and is currently discouraged.

Consecration is wasting mana.
While this "would help Ret DPS" it would sink way too much mana for DPS.
Total 60 Sec / 8 = 7 * 505 = Mana Use 3,535 if used offensively per cd.
- But this cannot be used and is very situational, so not on the list of Ret abilities to maximize offense.


Ret Change v6
31 Point Ret Option 1:
★ New Talent: Zeal 1/1
Paladin infuses weapon giving each hit a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 315 extra melee attack power.
Last 30 min.
1. This would make 31 pt. Ret worth it for PvE reasons
2. This would allow raid flexibility, not requiring a ret paladin to be placed in the shaman group to maximize potential.
3. This would benefit the PvP Realm, where Ret paladins are gimped w.o access to (WF), but would be able to imbue their own weapons, similar to oils, and stones.
4. This of course would not stack with other similar weapon 2ndary enchants provided by stones, oils, totems, etc.


31 Point Ret Option 2:
★ New Talent: Zeal 1/1
A divine attack that allows you to attack multiple adjacent enemies with a single attack that dealing 50% weapon damage up to 3 times, shares cooldown with Holy Strike.
1. Fun physical based 31 pt ability, would not be "Holy Damage".
2. Would need to decide using Holy strike for single target bypass armor+boost threat with (RF).
3. If 2-3 mobs dropping a max level consecrate burns nearly 600 mana for "AoE" this would add a lil option.


R1 (40): 50% of normal weapon damage
R2 (48): 55% of normal weapon damage
R3 (56): 60% of normal weapon damage


31 Point Ret Option 3:
★ New Talent: Zone of Truth 1/1
Paladin creates a magical zone that increases the Attack and Spell Power of party members with 45 yards by X.
Last 30 min.
1. Provides a group buff that would benefit both AP/SP users as Paladin is a Hybrid class and would be a unique yet nerfed buff of Trueshot Aura.

Lv 30 Rank1: 40 Attack and Spell Power
Lv 50 Rank2: 60 Attack and Spell Power
Lv 60 Rank4: 80 Attack and Spell Power

Ret Change v6
31 Point Ret Option 2: (Removed)
★ New Talent: Wrathful Smite 1/1

Instant - 2 min cooldown
An instant divine attack that deals weapon damage plus 150 plus and drives the enemy target to run in cower in fear for 3 sec.
1. Based semi-on D&D Paladin spell
2. This could be interesting ability

Ret Change v6
31 Point Ret Option 3: (Removed)
★ New Talent: Fanaticism 1/1

Infuses players and party members within 30 yards with 10% chance of granting you 2 extra attacks. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.
1. Removed to many group paladin buffs.....

Ret Change v6
31 Point Ret Option 4: (Removed)
★ New Talent: Heroism 1/1

Increases melee, ranged, and spell-casting speed by 20% for a party member within 150 yards. Lasts 15 sec.
1. =-/ lol

Ret Change v6
31 Point Ret Option 5: (Removed)
★ New Talent: Thunderous Smite 1/1

The next time you judge with a seal of command during this spell’s duration, your weapon rings with thunder increasing the critical strike chance by 10%. This effect lasts 30 seconds or until you have caused 3 critical strikes with Judgment of Command.
1. This was based off D&D Paladin spell :-).

-------------------------------------------------------------

These changes will add 15 Talents Into Holy, 15 Talents into Prot, and 16 Talents into Ret - Keeping Trees balanced and less cluttered.

Although TWow allows mixed groups, it brings a nice balance.

[Gerdyus]

Some great ideas here - speaking as prot main the proposed changes would be amazing to patch up some little worries about the spec like ranged pulling or lack of defense scaling.

[Mekunekud]

Make SoC use the stun damage value on unstunnable targets.
Make Sanctified Judgement provide 45/90% of the combined seal/judgement mana cost.
Make Judgement of the Crusader add both Nature and Arcane damage as well so Shamans/Druids get something out of the buff.
Make the 31 pointer into a "allows use of Exorcism on non-Undead/Demon NPCs following a critical hit" with repentance being a secondary 31 pointer for PVP.
Otherwise, it's fine. Argent Defender isn't "great" but it doesn't need a change. It's a solid tanking talent until raids.
Reckoning could simply be a 10% chance to retaliate with holy damage based on MH 1h weapon damage.
Sustain is a huge issue on all hybrids but there's not much that can be done to change that without breaking other specs. Prot/Ret would benefit from some kind of mana regen but then it'd empower holy more.

[Dsxcore]

Wow, I like your Paladin work up here +1

[Unchallenged]

Some great ideas here - speaking as prot main the proposed changes would be amazing to patch up some little worries about the spec like ranged pulling or lack of defense scaling.

Range pulling could be easily solved by a small talent tweak or providing Librams to fill those missing areas.

Libram of Fists of Heaven
Item Level 48
Binds when picked up
Unique
Relic Libram
Requires Level 42
Use: Smite an enemy for 13 to 18 Holy damage.

Could solve the range pull issue easily.

-

Defense scaling and durability is also another issue trying to fix, Prot paladins take more damage from bosses then hunters pets lol.

Prot palas "should" be using devo aura for boss fights for the DR, but it's so meaningless it's not used.

[Unchallenged]

Make SoC use the stun damage value on unstunnable targets. -1, Judgement itself is fine and based off crit chance. It was mainly used to be used as a filler, if they can fix sanctified command to refill mana correctly it joc will be worth alot more.

Make Sanctified Judgement provide 45/90% of the combined seal/judgement mana cost. -1 45/90% is huge as it is, I discussed this with lots of other ret paladins and anything over 90% would create an infinite mana ret pala healer. A ret paladin could sit in melee range with SoC judging to refill mana and tossing heals. Keeping this 90% or less refills 200 mana per judge on a 8/10 sec cd, ~7 per mins ~1400 mana allows rets more choices in offensive and using consecration.

Make Judgement of the Crusader add both Nature and Arcane damage as well so Shamans/Druids get something out of the buff. +- I'm not against it, but seems out of character for Paladin to lower these types of resistance.

Make the 31 pointer into a "allows use of Exorcism on non-Undead/Demon NPCs following a critical hit" with repentance being a secondary 31 pointer for PVP.

-1 we "think" we want to be able to use Exorcism on stuff, in reality, the mana per dmg is pretty high, I'd rather provide something only a full ret paladin could provide, which is why I went with a hybrid buff for 31, as many RAID ret paladins do not take rep/31 in RET.

Otherwise, it's fine. Argent Defender isn't "great" but it doesn't need a change. It's a solid tanking talent until raids.

Reckoning could simply be a 10% chance to retaliate with holy damage based on MH 1h weapon damage.
Sustain is a huge issue on all hybrids but there's not much that can be done to change that without breaking other specs. Prot/Ret would benefit from some kind of mana regen but then it'd empower holy more.

Reck is too deep to provide any benefit to holy/ret as it would require 30 Pts +5 pts to talent into it, leaving 26.

You'd barely to 1pt to holy power in holy, or 1pt in vengeance missing out on holy shock and main dmg boost of ret.

[Unchallenged]

Updated Again, Updated based off Feedback and recently nerfed in latest patches;

1. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=4724
- Removed SoR triggering Judgement of Wisdom
- Removed +hiteffects triggering Judgement of Wisdom

This resulted in mana loss from items such as;
1. Crimson SpellBlade (No Longer Pre-BIS)
2. Blazefury Medallion (Useless Now)
3. Storm Gauntlets/Incedorsaur (Gloves/Boots/Shoulders)
-> This ends up being a loss of ~200-300 mana per swing for Prot/Ret Paladins.

2. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=4790
+ Dev readded SoR triggering Judgement of Wisdom

-> Prot/Ret still miss out on nearly 120-180 mana return per swing.

To Combat This Change in Prot/Ret See Changes #;

Prot Change #6.
-> ★ Talent Update: Ardent Defender 1/1

Ret Change #5 - Updated Version 1.1
-> ★ Talent Update: Sanctified Command 2/2

[Mazus]

What about impgroving Anticipation talents? Use 5 talents points for 10 defense its not much worth it but if it can be improved to 20 defense it would be a great way to compensate poor itemization.

[Unchallenged]

What about impgroving Anticipation talents? Use 5 talents points for 10 defense its not much worth it but if it can be improved to 20 defense it would be a great way to compensate poor itemization.

Honestly, Defense is prob the least sought-after stat to a point as it means less threat generation from holy shield, crits for reck.

I think it's a good suggestion tho, as Prot paladins do have an impossible time hitting defense cap tho (if they wanted to).

[Unchallenged]

Bump, lots of new paladins.

Yes, No Maybe So - Let Me Know ;-)

[Ravenstone]

I don't like Zone of Truth, setting something up for 30 mins is just a fire and forget spell, especially with that range. I was thinking of something similar but to put it into Consecration instead. I think the smaller range and duration forces better gameplay. With the loss of the World Buffs you can give either AP+SP or Crit to the allies affected by it, though am on the fence for SP. If the buff effect is independant of the rank you can downrank Consecration to R1 which wouldn't be too costly to maintain.

Regarding Sanctified Command, I'd prefer it to restore a % of base mana, rather than the Seals cost. I'd also prefer it to work on every Judgement and not force Paladins into using just SoC. I feel that it should cover Paladin's mana costs if they downrank everything, but not enough if you go all out. I think it plays better if you can use a lot of your toolkit whilst downranking and then burning it all at the end of a big fight.

Exorcism I think is better to be allowed on all targets at reduced damage via a talent in Ret, my preference being replacing Vindication, as it fits better thematically. Your Vindication wouldn't work with SotC would it?

[Unchallenged]

(1) I don't like Zone of Truth, setting something up for 30 mins is just a fire and forget spell, especially with that range. I was thinking of something similar but to put it into Consecration instead. I think the smaller range and duration forces better gameplay. With the loss of the World Buffs you can give either AP+SP or Crit to the allies affected by it, though am on the fence for SP. If the buff effect is independant of the rank you can downrank Consecration to R1 which wouldn't be too costly to maintain.

(2) Regarding Sanctified Command, I'd prefer it to restore a % of base mana, rather than the Seals cost. I'd also prefer it to work on every Judgement and not force Paladins into using just SoC. I feel that it should cover Paladin's mana costs if they downrank everything, but not enough if you go all out. I think it plays better if you can use a lot of your toolkit whilst downranking and then burning it all at the end of a big fight.

(3) Exorcism I think is better to be allowed on all targets at reduced damage via a talent in Ret, my preference being replacing Vindication, as it fits better thematically. Your Vindication wouldn't work with SotC would it?

---------------------

(1) I picked the name "Zone of Truth" based off D&D Paladins, Its duration is usually 10m. Sounded cool.
As far as the AP/SP Paladins often get stuck in a range of different groups, we love to be with Shaman - but often who knows. Will we be with AP or SP? so by doing Hybrid (As a Paladin is) and doing 80ap/80sp could be honestly stuck in any group and both would benefit SoR the primary seal as it would help physical damage and spell dmg from SoR.

(2) It should never return more mana then it costs, otherwise it would create an infinite mana loop, also I have the tooltip saying returns any seal judged, but it just requires having SoC to access. Returning 90% of seal cost would encourage paladins to not forget to judge and could spend their mana on CS, HS, and Consecration. There would still be a need for mana pots/tea, it would just be reduced a bit and less reliance on Paladins using SoR with +dmg gear to proc more JoW there would be more choices.

(3) I picked to give Exorcism mostly to Prot because it would benefit them in a range pull situation and requires 21 pts prot to get which would help keep it away from deep ret/holy specs. Exorcism isn't designed to be used in PvE/PvP for Ret paladins. I had other Vindication designs in the past but kinda forgot and replaced them overtime lol, now going fwd I just hide previous change and update ideas based on people thoughts and input if it makes sense.

I'm just trying to fix lil holes, without breaking or making anything more OP :-)

[Zeus101]

These are great suggestions indeed. I love the threat reduction, the group benefit(I can never get into WF groups), and SOC improvements. I think soc should be the main seal for ret like it was in classic. Doing the whole spellret with righteous feels wack. Good job!

[Unchallenged]

These are great suggestions indeed. I love the threat reduction, the group benefit(I can never get into WF groups), and SOC improvements. I think soc should be the main seal for ret like it was in classic. Doing the whole spellret with righteous feels wack. Good job!

There has been a lot of back and forth on forums, and people on discord offering suggestions and improves to make things "make sense", but not to game breaking (OP).

I don't like that Ret Paladin HAS to wear +dmg items and use SoR to proc JoW to make enough mana.
I like the idea of Sanctified Command actually being useful for not only Ret, but Prot with 21/30 specs etc.

If you see any suggestions let me know, but I've gone back n forth with others on slight tweaks here and there to tune the talents,skills, tree better :-)

I also have this post over in "Suggestions" so it can be seen there as well, and has had other feedback over there to make changes above better options.
viewtopic.php?p=24954#p24954

[Getplucked]

I want Sanctified Command to be buffed/fixed because right now it's just so little mana that it's useless. 20% of the base cost of the spell? Even at max rank, that's a grand total of 42 mana.

42 mana every time you judge. Lmao

[Stuhn]

Hey, I had a few ideas today for Ret paladin. Thought I should jot them down in case it gives the devs any ideas or inspiration. The values I came up with are just guesses at what might be balanced, for some I just left as x.
I personally love vanilla paladin and I like a lot of the changes to pally in Turtle wow, here are a few ideas I had to improve the current toolkit for ret. (I'm a pve player, so I was thinking of all this through that lense)

• Spell rework: Seal of the Crusader

• While active Seal of the Crusader now increases weapon proc chance when attacking by x.

• Note: I think many paladins like the idea of increase weapon proc chance. But in practice using sotc to just judge it immediately feels clunky. Also the increase proc chance should be good but not so consistent that it's broken.


• Spell rework: Judgment of the Crusader

• Increase all spell damage taken by x.

• Note: This takes jotc from the "selfish" holy damage increase, to being a nice boss debuff while still benefiting the paladin.


• Spell rework: Crusader strike

• Deals x holy damage.

• Amplifies the paladins judgment debuff on the target by 100% for 10 seconds.

• 1 minute cooldown.

• Note: This would take CS from the spam playstyle it currently is ( not very vanilla paladin imo) to a cooldown that keeps in line with the paladins seal game play. It also provides different options for usage, mana regen vs heal regen vs + spell damage taken. Also stated below JoJ could be amplified by adding a slow effect for the duration of crusader strike.


• Spell rework: Judgment of Justice

• When amplified by Crusader Strike Judgment of Justice will also apply a x% slow.

• Talent rework: Heart of the Crusader

• Increase Crusader Strike's amplification bonus by 10%/20%/30% and duration by 1/2/3 second. And the Spell damage bonus of your Judgment of the Crusader by 5%/10%/15%.


• Talent rework: Sanctified command

• Gives your Seal of Command a 45/90% chance to resist dispel effects and when Seal of Command deals damage it will restore mana equal to 5/10% of the base mana cost to you and nearby party members.

• Note: The current iteration of Sanctified Command is extremely underwhelming and is usually skipped. Making the mana return effect occur on SoC proc will allow players to benefit from this talent more naturally.

• New talent: Twisting Seals (Row 7 Retribution Tree)

• Two Seals can now be active at once for up to 1 second. While you have an active seal, activating a different seal grants a bonus based on the new seal:

• Seal of Righteousness grants 15% spell power bonus for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Command grants 15% attack power bonus for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Wisdom grants 1% of your mana.

• Seal of Light grants 1% of your max health.

• Seal of the Crusader grants 5% increased attack speed for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Justice grants 1% hit chance for 4 seconds.

[Unchallenged]

Hey, I had a few ideas today for Ret paladin. Thought I should jot them down in case it gives the devs any ideas or inspiration. The values I came up with are just guesses at what might be balanced, for some I just left as x.
I personally love vanilla paladin and I like a lot of the changes to pally in Turtle wow, here are a few ideas I had to improve the current toolkit for ret. (I'm a pve player, so I was thinking of all this through that lense)

• Spell rework: Seal of the Crusader

• While active Seal of the Crusader now increases weapon proc chance when attacking by x.

• Note: I think many paladins like the idea of increase weapon proc chance. But in practice using sotc to just judge it immediately feels clunky. Also the increase proc chance should be good but not so consistent that it's broken.

-> Honestly, most Paladins only use SoTC for Judgment before swapping back to SoR/SoC.
Changing it to fish for weapon procs based on weapon swing + the loss of damage from SoR/SoC over any duration would not be an overall beneficial change to alter.

If anything the tooltip should read;
"Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting 326 melee attack power. The Paladin also Increases movement and attack speed by 30%. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time."

• Spell rework: Judgment of the Crusader

• Increase all spell damage taken by x.

• Note: This takes jotc from the "selfish" holy damage increase to being a nice boss debuff while still benefiting the paladin.

-> JoTC should be a selfish increase, let the paladin decide if he wants to be utility or not. They already get pigeonholed into support roles to often. I think the current JoTC works nicely and can have dozens of fun uses.
If a Paladin wants to increase spell damage taken, let them use a nightfall weapon and provide that benefit.

The current changes allow Paladins to decide, and not be stuck being a utility class in raids.


• Spell rework: Crusader strike

• Deals x holy damage.

• Amplifies the paladins judgment debuff on the target by 100% for 10 seconds.

• 1 minute cooldown.

• Note: This would take CS from the spam playstyle it currently is ( not very vanilla paladin imo) to a cooldown that keeps in line with the paladins seal game play. It also provides different options for usage, mana regen vs heal regen vs + spell damage taken. Also stated below JoJ could be amplified by adding a slow effect for the duration of crusader strike.

-> The current CS has its uses from CSr1 WF/Proc spam to max rank holy dmg build-up. Changing this to apply 100% debuff on a target would be to OP in PvP Sitations and would be a no-go.

In its current use, it would be nice to convert it to holy damage to let CS benefit from its own debuff, slowly ramping up as the stacks build, but besides that, I think CS stands in a good spot and has its uses.

• Spell rework: Judgment of Justice

• When amplified by Crusader Strike Judgment of Justice will also apply a x% slow.

-> This was introduced in TBC, and was often used on FC Druid/Shaman, I think Twow is really trying to keep things separate between vanilla future expansions adding in their own flavor of ideas.

While it would be a nice addition, I'd honestly like this - but druids/shamans would not :-)

• Talent rework: Heart of the Crusader

• Increase Crusader Strike's amplification bonus by 10%/20%/30% and duration by 1/2/3 second. And the Spell damage bonus of your Judgment of the Crusader by 5%/10%/15%.

-> I agree HoTC Talent should be changed, but amplifying your CS idea up top would continue to put it over the top, the HoTC should be sorta like;
"Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and increases attack speed bonus to 33/36/40%."

• Talent rework: Sanctified command

• Gives your Seal of Command a 45/90% chance to resist dispel effects and when Seal of Command deals damage it will restore mana equal to 5/10% of the base mana cost to you and nearby party members.

• Note: The current iteration of Sanctified Command is extremely underwhelming and is usually skipped. Making the mana return effect occur on SoC proc will allow players to benefit from this talent more naturally.

> Reading your comment, "Dmg with SoC it will restore mana equal to 5/10% of the base mana cost to you and pm"
Ok so Base mana of SoC R5: 210 mana, so 5/10% of that is 10.5 or 21 mana, SoC is 6PPM so will proc 6 times.
6* 10.5 = 63 mana returned per 1 min, or 6* 21 = 126 mana back per min which is just as bad as current one.

My Idea is 40/90% of Mana When any Seal is Judged, which would return ~84mana or 189mana and scale based on Rank of Seal used. While it is a self buff, Paladins don't always need to provide utility with everything they do.

• New talent: Twisting Seals (Row 7 Retribution Tree)

• Two Seals can now be active at once for up to 1 second. While you have an active seal, activating a different seal grants a bonus based on the new seal:

• Seal of Righteousness grants 15% spell power bonus for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Command grants 15% attack power bonus for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Wisdom grants 1% of your mana.

• Seal of Light grants 1% of your max health.

• Seal of the Crusader grants 5% increased attack speed for 4 seconds.

• Seal of Justice grants 1% hit chance for 4 seconds.

This change seems very non vanilla and would seem very different then current gameplay, and to code to implement isn't really tied to anything currently in game.

Most of the changes being requested are slight tweaks to things that exist already, but tweaks could make it better for the class in general.

[Tasman]

I will leave my suggestions for prot tree here, as an alternative view.

Prot tree improvements should be wieved in 3 main directions:

1.Threat maintenance:
1.1.Give baseline [Hand of Reckoning], that would be trained at 10 lvl, it's non changed wotlk version.
1.2.SoJ should reduce targets movement speed to normal, when discharged, like it was in TBC. As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This also will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters.
1.3.[Reckoning] - make it grant an extra attack, after shield block, parry, dodge occured. It will fix current contradiction with defese skill and will benefit from this stat.
1.4.Addition wotlk version of [Avenger's Shield] as 31 point talent, with instant use (TBC version had 1 sec. cast), for burst aggro on multiple targets and easy mob packs pull.

2.Mana regeneration:
2.1. [Spiritual Attunement] - 2 point talent at row 6 of prot tree. That will provide paladin with 10% of mana from the amount healed hp. It will improve threat generation with spells, because prots mana drains very fast.

3.Surviability improvements:
3.1.[Improved Devotion Aura] - add extra 10 defese skill (at rank 5) to this talent and move it, from row 1 to 2. Talents [Precision] and [Guardian's Favour] they should be moved to row 1, to make them more accessible to ret an holy specs.
3.2.[Toughness] - add bonus that will provide +5 points of resistance to all schools of magic (at rank 5).
3.3.[Anticipation] - change it from granting 10 of defense (due to defense as bonus moved to [Improved Devotion Aura]), to 5% of dodge (at rank 5).
3.3.[Imroved Righteous Fury] - add all damage reduction by 6% (at rank 3).
3.4.[Blessing of Sanctuary] - add hp increase bonus rank 1 - 2%, rank 2 - 3%, rank 3 - 4%, rank 4 - 5%.
3.5.[Ardent Defender] - make it 3 point talent like it was in wotlk, but at row 6. It will give 7/13/20% damage reduction when below 35% of health and heals paladin for 10/20/30% of his hp when he recieves killing blow. Talent cooldown 2 - 3 min.
3.6.Change [Divine Protection] - to provide reduction of all incoming damage by 50%.

[Undying01]

I will leave my suggestions for prot tree here, as an alternative view.

Prot tree improvements should be wieved in 3 main directions:

1.Threat maintenance:
1.1.Give baseline [Hand of Reckoning], that would be trained at 10 lvl, it's non changed wotlk version.
- This would be awesome to be baseline, but doubtful they will change it. The current method honestly sucks and chugs so much mana and time to taunt.

1.2.SoJ should reduce targets movement speed to normal, when discharged, like it was in TBC. As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This also will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters.

- Paladins are already very strong in PvP, giving them a PvP buff vs PvE would be looked at negatively. In the past I did have a suggestion for 3/3 SoJ, but removed it because consecration has an aoe ability similar. Twow devs don't like adding tbc/wolk etc - they like to add original ideas.


1.3.[Reckoning] - make it grant an extra attack, after shield block, parry, dodge occured. It will fix current contradiction with defense skill and will benefit from this stat.
- Holy shield/Shield spec already react based off "blocks", reck is based off attack to my cur suggestion is;

★ Talent: Reckoning 5/5
Gives you a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to gain an extra attack after dealing an attack from a weapon swing, spell, or ability.

1.4.Addition wotlk version of [Avenger's Shield] as 31 point talent, with instant use (TBC version had 1 sec. cast), for burst aggro on multiple targets and easy mob packs pull.
- This would be the BEST idea for a 31pt prot talent, as of now not many prot palas go past 21 prot, as cur 31pt sucks.
I think if Avenger's shield came in as 31pt many prot palas would take it. (like earlier, retail changes less likely to happen).

2.Mana regeneration:
2.1. [Spiritual Attunement] - 2 point talent at row 6 of prot tree. That will provide paladin with 10% of mana from the amount healed hp. It will improve threat generation with spells, because prots mana drains very fast.
- My AD change adds something like this;

★ Talent Update: Ardent Defender 1/1
Reduces all damage you take by 20% for 8 sec.
While Ardent Defender is active, the next attack that would otherwise kill you will instead bring you to 20% of your maximum health. In addition, while under the effect of Righteous Fury gives the Paladin mana when healed by other friendly targets' spells. The amount of mana gained is equal to 9% of the amount healed.


3.Surviability improvements:
3.1.[Improved Devotion Aura] - add extra 10 defense skill (at rank 5) to this talent and move it, from row 1 to 2.
- not many would bother in T2 tree, can't really reorganize that.

Talents [Precision] and [Guardian's Favour] they should be moved to row 1, to make them more accessible to ret an holy specs.
- It would be nice for ret, to not spend 5 random points on t1 prot for precision, but unlikely.

3.2.[Toughness] - add bonus that will provide +5 points of resistance to all schools of magic (at rank 5).
-- took my idea for devo idea.

3.3.[Anticipation] - change it from granting 10 of defense (due to defense as bonus moved to [Improved Devotion Aura]), to 5% of dodge (at rank 5).
- I'd prob remove the dodge, and just do block 1-5% per rank just to sync better with tree.

3.3.[Imroved Righteous Fury] - add all damage reduction by 6% (at rank 3).
- ret palas could spec into port for this + hoj for PvP Buff, prob won't fly.

3.4.[Blessing of Sanctuary] - add hp increase bonus rank 1 - 2%, rank 2 - 3%, rank 3 - 4%, rank 4 - 5%.
- No BoS or Kings, no need to combine, in raids they get both anyways.

3.5.[Ardent Defender] - make it 3 point talent like it was in wotlk, but at row 6. It will give 7/13/20% damage reduction when below 35% of health and heals paladin for 10/20/30% of his hp when he recieves killing blow. Talent cooldown 2 - 3 min.
3.6.Change [Divine Protection] - to provide a reduction of all incoming damage by 50%.

I like a good portion of your changes, the 31 pts talent change would prob be my fav.

[Unchallenged]

I've updated Talent Tree to Include Zeal as an option as 31 pt talent.
Added some prior changes/adjusted some text.

Overall pretty strong changes from what I've seen others suggest in other posts, without being to aggressive on the changes to the gameplay.

Other suggestions here;
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