Forsaken Paladin when?

[Demray]

Hear me out before you crucify me!

Paladin class option for Forsaken, BUT with unique seals akin to what was done for the Blood Elves in TBC.

A shaman option could be added for alliance, in order to balance it or other class/race options for alliance.

This might also help fix the faction imbalance, since paladin is one of the most played classes.

[Andima]

i like

[Bellybutton]

For what lore purposes, though?
Paladin being Alliance exclusive, much like Shamans being Horde exclusive, feels very important to the faction identity of Vanilla WoW and changing that was one of the things I disliked from TBC.

[Sinrek]

We heard you.

Bring the nails, brothers…

[Demray]

For what lore purposes, though?
Paladin being Alliance exclusive, much like Shamans being Horde exclusive, feels very important to the faction identity of Vanilla WoW and changing that was one of the things I disliked from TBC.

There exists many different organizations within the society of the Forsaken. And a few are known to still posses the ability to use the Light.

There is atleast 2 known Lightwielding undead Paladins in classic, Leonid Barthalomew and Sir Zeliek from Naxx.

Since all Forsaken are risen people from Lordaeron, it would, to me, make sense that some of these were old paladins, slain in the third war.

Now my idea was, that Forsaken Paladins were different from regular alliance paladins, akin to the Blood Knights in TBC.
The Lore, Ideals and even Spells used by these Forsaken Paladins, could and should be different to some degree. Here I am thinking about 1 or 2 new seals and maybe a new Aura and ofc, a different mount.

Game wise, I think it would serve a good purpose, since Paladins are by far one of the most played classes on Twow. Forsaken being the only race it would make sense, to give paladins, if adding Blood Elves is out of the question.
And it would add a NEW and Custome, YET vanilla like aspect to the game.

I personally dont find it hard, to imagine some outskirmished church or chapel in Tirisfal, housed by old forsaken paladins.

[Aszura]

first of all, forsaken already have 6 class, they can't have more, it takes a lot of work and time to increase class limit in vanilla wow, the only race that "could" get paladin are tauren, they have 2 slots (priest and paladin...)

now, if forsaken (horde in general) gets paladin, alliance would get shaman, if alliance gets shaman, horde population dies

leave faction-only class for their factions...

[Pistol]

For what lore purposes, though?
Paladin being Alliance exclusive, much like Shamans being Horde exclusive, feels very important to the faction identity of Vanilla WoW and changing that was one of the things I disliked from TBC.

There exists many different organizations within the society of the Forsaken. And a few are known to still posses the ability to use the Light.

There is atleast 2 known Lightwielding undead Paladins in classic, Leonid Barthalomew and Sir Zeliek from Naxx.

Since all Forsaken are risen people from Lordaeron, it would, to me, make sense that some of these were old paladins, slain in the third war.

Now my idea was, that Forsaken Paladins were different from regular alliance paladins, akin to the Blood Knights in TBC.
The Lore, Ideals and even Spells used by these Forsaken Paladins, could and should be different to some degree. Here I am thinking about 1 or 2 new seals and maybe a new Aura and ofc, a different mount.

Game wise, I think it would serve a good purpose, since Paladins are by far one of the most played classes on Twow. Forsaken being the only race it would make sense, to give paladins, if adding Blood Elves is out of the question.
And it would add a NEW and Custome, YET vanilla like aspect to the game.

I personally dont find it hard, to imagine some outskirmished church or chapel in Tirisfal, housed by old forsaken paladins.

Leonid Barthalowmew does not have paladin abilities nor is he stated anywhere to be a paladin.

I also don't believe that the Dark Lady would be terribly fond of a paladin order popping up given the likelihood of dual loyalty

From an OOC perspective I also reject the idea of having paladins available to the Horde and shamans available to the Alliance as well for the reasons given by many others above.

[Demray]

For what lore purposes, though?
Paladin being Alliance exclusive, much like Shamans being Horde exclusive, feels very important to the faction identity of Vanilla WoW and changing that was one of the things I disliked from TBC.

There exists many different organizations within the society of the Forsaken. And a few are known to still posses the ability to use the Light.

There is atleast 2 known Lightwielding undead Paladins in classic, Leonid Barthalomew and Sir Zeliek from Naxx.

Since all Forsaken are risen people from Lordaeron, it would, to me, make sense that some of these were old paladins, slain in the third war.

Now my idea was, that Forsaken Paladins were different from regular alliance paladins, akin to the Blood Knights in TBC.
The Lore, Ideals and even Spells used by these Forsaken Paladins, could and should be different to some degree. Here I am thinking about 1 or 2 new seals and maybe a new Aura and ofc, a different mount.

Game wise, I think it would serve a good purpose, since Paladins are by far one of the most played classes on Twow. Forsaken being the only race it would make sense, to give paladins, if adding Blood Elves is out of the question.
And it would add a NEW and Custome, YET vanilla like aspect to the game.

I personally dont find it hard, to imagine some outskirmished church or chapel in Tirisfal, housed by old forsaken paladins.

Leonid Barthalowmew does not have paladin abilities nor is he stated anywhere to be a paladin.

I also don't believe that the Dark Lady would be terribly fond of a paladin order popping up given the likelihood of dual loyalty

From an OOC perspective I also reject the idea of having paladins available to the Horde and shamans available to the Alliance as well for the reasons given by many others above.

I do not know which sources you'd consider cannon or not, but on the Wowwiki page on Leonid, it is very clearly stated that he is a Paladin, or well, it's said that he was a paladin in life, but there is no reason to assume, that just because he is now undead, he can no longer be a paladin.

The best argument against this notion, Forsaken Paladins, imo. Is that it would require Shamans for the Alliance, which could end up damaging the Horde-faction population, even though I do think Forsaken Paladin would attract alot of players to horde aswell.

Also, there are no more rooms for class for the Forsaken, duo to them being given the Hunter class, so I also see how that could be an issue.

I dont buy the Sylvanus argument, cause she cleary has no real insight in whats going on, within her own "kingdom", nor does she seem to have much interest. A Forsaken based Paladin order, could easily be used as a weapon against the scourge and the Scarlet Crusade, two of the Forsakens main rivals in Tirisfal.

In total, I dont buy the various "Lore" based arguments against the notion of Forsaken Paladins - Sentient Undeads can wield the Light, that is cannon. How it is implemented is another question.

[Pistol]

To hammer onto the Leonid Barthalomew point once more, even on the WoWwiki page https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki ... ite_note-1 it does not mention him being a paladin nor does it do so in any of the quests he gives or ends as can be seen here https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=11036/l ... vered#ends.

WoWpedia does make this claim but it SAYS CITATION NEEDED next to the claim about him ever being a paladin even in life.


P.S. Sylvanas doesn't know whats going on in her own kingdom, insight or care? Why do you say that? No part of the vanilla questing suggests that Sylvanas doesn't care about her kingdom, at least not less than any other racial leader.

[Pistol]

I just completely reject the notion that somehow Forsaken society ,which isn't exactly known for its reverence of the Light as seen in every Forsaken priest quest, is going to both have enough paladins to support an order of them and that were this order to exist that Sylvanas would approve of essentially an armed remnant of the old kingdom coming back.



To be clear, I do not reject Forsaken being able to paladins completely. I think Sir Zeliek is enough evidence that undead CAN be paladins objectively. However, I think for the same reason that Night Elves cannot be Warlocks that Undead should not be paladins, purely cultural and political reasons making them so rare that to have them be playable would be absurd.

[Demray]

I just completely reject the notion that somehow Forsaken society ,which isn't exactly known for its reverence of the Light as seen in every Forsaken priest quest, is going to both have enough paladins to support an order of them and that were this order to exist that Sylvanas would approve of essentially an armed remnant of the old kingdom coming back.



To be clear, I do not reject Forsaken being able to paladins completely. I think Sir Zeliek is enough evidence that undead CAN be paladins objectively. However, I think for the same reason that Night Elves cannot be Warlocks that Undead should not be paladins, purely cultural and political reasons making them so rare that to have them be playable would be absurd.

Yes I think you are making a fair and decent point here. Pointing out the possibility or rather impossibility of a Forsaken paladin order, in terms of their comtemporary culture, rather than honing in on the same ol' excuse that "undeads can't wield the Light".

I am certain that one could find a way to infuse Forsaken paladins into the gameplay. Like having Forsaken priest change their class ingame through various NPC, making them Argent Dawn menbers, fx. instead of fully loyal to the Forsaken Banshee Queen. I dont know the difficulty of making this endeavour possible, nor if it is even worth it.

Merely a suggestion that seems to sort of work fine, with current lore. Though it would put the player character in a unique and maybe tricky position - Being more a member of a different organization than of "The Horde" at large.

This would almost require a sort of "Neutral" mode, where in players could choose new factions to join, like the Argent Dawn, Venture Co. Bloodsails etc. This seems like an awful lot to consider and implement, just to justify undead paladins though...

[Valadorn]

I just completely reject the notion that somehow Forsaken society ,which isn't exactly known for its reverence of the Light as seen in every Forsaken priest quest, is going to both have enough paladins to support an order of them and that were this order to exist that Sylvanas would approve of essentially an armed remnant of the old kingdom coming back.



To be clear, I do not reject Forsaken being able to paladins completely. I think Sir Zeliek is enough evidence that undead CAN be paladins objectively. However, I think for the same reason that Night Elves cannot be Warlocks that Undead should not be paladins, purely cultural and political reasons making them so rare that to have them be playable would be absurd.

Yes I think you are making a fair and decent point here. Pointing out the possibility or rather impossibility of a Forsaken paladin order, in terms of their comtemporary culture, rather than honing in on the same ol' excuse that "undeads can't wield the Light".

I am certain that one could find a way to infuse Forsaken paladins into the gameplay. Like having Forsaken priest change their class ingame through various NPC, making them Argent Dawn menbers, fx. instead of fully loyal to the Forsaken Banshee Queen. I dont know the difficulty of making this endeavour possible, nor if it is even worth it.

Merely a suggestion that seems to sort of work fine, with current lore. Though it would put the player character in a unique and maybe tricky position - Being more a member of a different organization than of "The Horde" at large.

This would almost require a sort of "Neutral" mode, where in players could choose new factions to join, like the Argent Dawn, Venture Co. Bloodsails etc. This seems like an awful lot to consider and implement, just to justify undead paladins though...

The problem here is that the Argent dawn is not at war with the alliance, while the forsaken are, wouldnt that be a problem ? Joining a neutral faction, while still being at war with their allies ?

[Kanto123]

I thought it would be nice to add sunwalkers to the horde; i.e. take the paladin class and change the names of the spells and the icons used for their buttons to match a Sun aesthetic, maybe even change the color of some of the spells to maintain an orange/red theme. Functionally it would be the same as paladins but it would match the horde more

Blessing of Protection -> Ray of Protection

Seal of Wisdom -> Flame of Wisdom

Divine Shield-> Solar Shield

[Allwynd01]

Hear me out before you crucify me!

Paladin class option for Forsaken, BUT with unique seals akin to what was done for the Blood Elves in TBC.

A shaman option could be added for alliance, in order to balance it or other class/race options for alliance.

This might also help fix the faction imbalance, since paladin is one of the most played classes.

I'm absolutely against this.

Giving the Shaman to the Alliance and the Paladin to the Horde was the dumbest thing that was ever done to the game. It destroyed faction identity of the classes.

If anything, there needs to be a new Horde-only class and a new Alliance-only class.

Forsaken already have Priest, which they shouldn't have and no lore retconning can justify it. Not even saying that through sheer discipline they can use the Light, which naturally damages them. If that would be realistic, all Forsaken Priests would permanently self-destroy themselves before they reach level 4 and auto-delete themselves from the game database.


It's awesome to have ideas, we all have them, but sometimes our ideas don't make much sense, no offense. Even I have stupid ideas 99% of the time.

[Reploidrocsa]

if it were for me i would restrict druid/paladin to alliance and warlock/shaman to the horde

[Pistol]

Ideally I think there'd be a "Shadow-y priest" class for the Horde instead of the splitting the baby situation we have with the priest class at the moment where every undead priest is Dark Cleric this or Shadow Priest that while every Human priest of the same faction is of the Church of the Light but of course none of this sort of change would ever happen.

[Kanto123]

Hear me out before you crucify me!

Paladin class option for Forsaken, BUT with unique seals akin to what was done for the Blood Elves in TBC.

A shaman option could be added for alliance, in order to balance it or other class/race options for alliance.

This might also help fix the faction imbalance, since paladin is one of the most played classes.

I'm absolutely against this.

Giving the Shaman to the Alliance and the Paladin to the Horde was the dumbest thing that was ever done to the game. It destroyed faction identity of the classes.

If anything, there needs to be a new Horde-only class and a new Alliance-only class.

Forsaken already have Priest, which they shouldn't have and no lore retconning can justify it. Not even saying that through sheer discipline they can use the Light, which naturally damages them. If that would be realistic, all Forsaken Priests would permanently self-destroy themselves before they reach level 4 and auto-delete themselves from the game database.


It's awesome to have ideas, we all have them, but sometimes our ideas don't make much sense, no offense. Even I have stupid ideas 99% of the time.

I wouldn't say making shaman and paladin available for both factions is anywhere near the worst decision made for the game; however i think the manner tbc went about it was poor. Giving elf paladins to the horde and drainei shamans to alliance doesn't feel quite right, but that's more a race and race/class combo issue. I think blood elves are a bigger clash with the horde theme than paladins, and drainei shaman just feels like a strange combo.

I would say implementing furbolg shamans for the alliance would be an appropriate addition. And paladins could work for the horde if the aesthetic is changed enough to match Taurens as I suggested above; however since there isn't a sunwalker precedent in Warcraft 3 that might make it less fitting for this specific server, but I'm okay with the idea in general

[Allwynd01]

I wouldn't say making shaman and paladin available for both factions is anywhere near the worst decision made for the game; however i think the manner tbc went about it was poor. Giving elf paladins to the horde and drainei shamans to alliance doesn't feel quite right, but that's more a race and race/class combo issue. I think blood elves are a bigger clash with the horde theme than paladins, and drainei shaman just feels like a strange combo.

I would say implementing furbolg shamans for the alliance would be an appropriate addition. And paladins could work for the horde if the aesthetic is changed enough to match Taurens as I suggested above; however since there isn't a sunwalker precedent in Warcraft 3 that might make it less fitting for this specific server, but I'm okay with the idea in general

I don't see how adding Paladin to the Horde or Shaman to the Alliance enriches the game or players' experience in any way. I think it's a lazy move that has been provoked by lazy desires.

In other words it's like playing a melee class and demanding and stomping on the floor with feet that you want your melee class to also be casting spells, or have spellcaster class and demanding and stomping on the floor with feet that you want your caster class to also carry a 2H sword and have abilities for that as well as being a caster class.

The obvious that the most sensible and rational answer to such a demand would be:

"Then pick the one you like better and deal with it, you can't have both." That's what Blizzard (at the time before disbanding and becoming Activision) should've responded to spoiled and entitled players and never listened to them.

I think that Shaman being only a Horde class is pretty cool and I only play Alliance. I think the Shaman gives the Horde a more tribalistic and uncivilized feel, while the Paladin gives the Alliance a more religious and civilized feel. The feel that the Horde has with their structures being built from giant tusks and pieces of leather stretched between to act as walls is really cool even if I don't play that faction, I just look at them from afar and admire them, because I know if I get close, there will be trouble. Same is with Alliance - they have a more civilized society, their architecture is more advanced and it gives off different feel about the game. Even the game itself says the Horde are more uncivilized, I remember playing an Orc many years ago and there was a love letter from a female Orc in Orgrimmar to an Orc chef in Crossroads where she tells him something like "You were so cute when you accidentally cut off your finger." Or some of the Troll /silly voice lines. I know it's trying to be funny, but it depicts their society in a funny, but realistic way.

So back on the class/faction identity topic, I think there should be MORE classes that should be only for Horde or only for Alliance, here are some ideas:

Horde-only class - Necromancer

Why only Horde? Sure, if you go into the Plaguelands, you will see Human Necromancers, but why are they there and not in Elwynn Forest? Most likely because they were either cast out or escaped prosecution.

Necromancer traits:

- Armor proficiency: cloth armor
- Weapon proficiency: staves, wands, daggers
- Special/Relic slot: Necromancy tomes
- Talent trees: Summoning (skeletons, zombies, golems), Curses (debuffs, DoTs, utility, CC), Spirits (single target, DPS, AoE)
- Specifics: in order to summon, needs to have a corpse first, summons disappear after logoff



Alliance-only class - Bard/Minstrel

Why only Alliance? There is technically little reason for there to not be Bards/Minstrels in Horde society, but with their tribalistic ways, that role would fall to a chieftain or some elder in the tribe/village, who just stay there, whereas Bards/Minstrels travel the lands.

Bard/Minstrel traits:

- Armor proficiency: cloth, leather armor
- Weapon proficiency: staves, daggers, 1H swords, fist weapons (only because they are really underused in the game), bows, crossbows, thrown weapons
- Special/Relic slot: lute, harp, flute, etc.
- Talent trees: Healer, DPS, Buffs
- Specifics: class is a hybrid between melee and ranged, having an equal number of both melee and ranged abilities

[Demray]

I wouldn't say making shaman and paladin available for both factions is anywhere near the worst decision made for the game; however i think the manner tbc went about it was poor. Giving elf paladins to the horde and drainei shamans to alliance doesn't feel quite right, but that's more a race and race/class combo issue. I think blood elves are a bigger clash with the horde theme than paladins, and drainei shaman just feels like a strange combo.

I would say implementing furbolg shamans for the alliance would be an appropriate addition. And paladins could work for the horde if the aesthetic is changed enough to match Taurens as I suggested above; however since there isn't a sunwalker precedent in Warcraft 3 that might make it less fitting for this specific server, but I'm okay with the idea in general

I don't see how adding Paladin to the Horde or Shaman to the Alliance enriches the game or players' experience in any way. I think it's a lazy move that has been provoked by lazy desires.

In other words it's like playing a melee class and demanding and stomping on the floor with feet that you want your melee class to also be casting spells, or have spellcaster class and demanding and stomping on the floor with feet that you want your caster class to also carry a 2H sword and have abilities for that as well as being a caster class.

The obvious that the most sensible and rational answer to such a demand would be:

"Then pick the one you like better and deal with it, you can't have both." That's what Blizzard (at the time before disbanding and becoming Activision) should've responded to spoiled and entitled players and never listened to them.

I think that Shaman being only a Horde class is pretty cool and I only play Alliance. I think the Shaman gives the Horde a more tribalistic and uncivilized feel, while the Paladin gives the Alliance a more religious and civilized feel. The feel that the Horde has with their structures being built from giant tusks and pieces of leather stretched between to act as walls is really cool even if I don't play that faction, I just look at them from afar and admire them, because I know if I get close, there will be trouble. Same is with Alliance - they have a more civilized society, their architecture is more advanced and it gives off different feel about the game. Even the game itself says the Horde are more uncivilized, I remember playing an Orc many years ago and there was a love letter from a female Orc in Orgrimmar to an Orc chef in Crossroads where she tells him something like "You were so cute when you accidentally cut off your finger." Or some of the Troll /silly voice lines. I know it's trying to be funny, but it depicts their society in a funny, but realistic way.

So back on the class/faction identity topic, I think there should be MORE classes that should be only for Horde or only for Alliance, here are some ideas:

Horde-only class - Necromancer

Why only Horde? Sure, if you go into the Plaguelands, you will see Human Necromancers, but why are they there and not in Elwynn Forest? Most likely because they were either cast out or escaped prosecution.

Necromancer traits:

- Armor proficiency: cloth armor
- Weapon proficiency: staves, wands, daggers
- Special/Relic slot: Necromancy tomes
- Talent trees: Summoning (skeletons, zombies, golems), Curses (debuffs, DoTs, utility, CC), Spirits (single target, DPS, AoE)
- Specifics: in order to summon, needs to have a corpse first, summons disappear after logoff



Alliance-only class - Bard/Minstrel

Why only Alliance? There is technically little reason for there to not be Bards/Minstrels in Horde society, but with their tribalistic ways, that role would fall to a chieftain or some elder in the tribe/village, who just stay there, whereas Bards/Minstrels travel the lands.

Bard/Minstrel traits:

- Armor proficiency: cloth, leather armor
- Weapon proficiency: staves, daggers, 1H swords, fist weapons (only because they are really underused in the game), bows, crossbows, thrown weapons
- Special/Relic slot: lute, harp, flute, etc.
- Talent trees: Healer, DPS, Buffs
- Specifics: class is a hybrid between melee and ranged, having an equal number of both melee and ranged abilities

Your idea for two new classes sounds really nice, but I think they belong on a different thread. However, +1 from me.

In regards to what you said about the aesthetic of the factions, I will argue that the Forsaken of all, have a more "Alliance-esque" aesthetic then even some of the Alliance races (i.e Night Elves).

The Forsaken of classic wow are literally, risen humans of Lordaeron, who now reside in the lost human lands of Lordaeron. They live in towns formally belonging to the humans of Lordaeron, they ride horses that used to be alive, like humans, and their society, though a bit gruesome, is pretty much closer to what you'd find from humans more than Orcs or Trolls.

I'd still argue, that a Forsaken paladin, lore wise, seems like the most logical choice for the Horde, if at all.

Churches still exists within Lordaeron, most Forsaken still retain huge parts of their former selves, and Light wielding and worship is seen from a few rare Forsaken.

They are in many ways still more human, than Orcs, Trolls and Tauren.

[Pistol]

An added concern cameto mind, I fear that the existence of Forsaken paladins would overshadow the prominence of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow within Forsaken society thus further limiting the prominence of Shadow Priests

[Zirek]

Giving paladin to horde is bad idea because trying too hard to balance everything harms the game in the long run and also you removing the class/faction identity .

[Kanto123]

Giving paladin to horde is bad idea because trying too hard to balance everything harms the game in the long run and also you removing the class/faction identity .

What issues arise from trying to balance the game more?

[Allwynd01]

Giving paladin to horde is bad idea because trying too hard to balance everything harms the game in the long run and also you removing the class/faction identity .

What issues arise from trying to balance the game more?

One negative and very pivotal result is Homogenization. This happens when balancing eventually erases almost all unique traits of something. It's more prominent in Retail WoW where all classes are literally the same thing with different name - every class can DPS, every class can Tank, every class can Heal. At this point if all classes but one are removed from the game, it wouldn't make any difference.

Right now the only thing that sets apart the Horde from the Alliance is that they have a Shaman and the Alliance have a Paladin. If you give Paladin to the Horde and Shaman to the Alliance, then what will set the two factions apart? NOTHING!

Might as well remove factions at this point altogether since they end up being the same thing with different name.



This is the one thing Vanilla WoW has going for it that makes it better than future versions of the game. Even from a roleplay perspective, it's a very important thing. It's the same as why the race and class combinations are as you see them. A Tauren can't be a Rogue or a Warlock and there is a reason for that. The same applies why Horde don't and have no Paladins and why the Alliance can't and don't have no Shamans.

[Mac]

Forsaken Paladin would be a lot of fun.

[Kanto123]

Giving paladin to horde is bad idea because trying too hard to balance everything harms the game in the long run and also you removing the class/faction identity .

What issues arise from trying to balance the game more?

One negative and very pivotal result is Homogenization. This happens when balancing eventually erases almost all unique traits of something. It's more prominent in Retail WoW where all classes are literally the same thing with different name - every class can DPS, every class can Tank, every class can Heal. At this point if all classes but one are removed from the game, it wouldn't make any difference.

Right now the only thing that sets apart the Horde from the Alliance is that they have a Shaman and the Alliance have a Paladin. If you give Paladin to the Horde and Shaman to the Alliance, then what will set the two factions apart? NOTHING!

Might as well remove factions at this point altogether since they end up being the same thing with different name.



This is the one thing Vanilla WoW has going for it that makes it better than future versions of the game. Even from a roleplay perspective, it's a very important thing. It's the same as why the race and class combinations are as you see them. A Tauren can't be a Rogue or a Warlock and there is a reason for that. The same applies why Horde don't and have no Paladins and why the Alliance can't and don't have no Shamans.

That makes sense to me, I get what you're saying. It maintains the interest of each element of the game by making each element unique. I play Horde because of their tribal theme, and I'm not interested in the Medieval theme of the Alliance

[Allwynd01]

That makes sense to me, I get what you're saying. It maintains the interest of each element of the game by making each element unique. I play Horde because of their tribal theme, and I'm not interested in the Medieval theme of the Alliance

I'm glad you can see my perspective. I play Alliance and not Horde, but even though I don't play Horde, I like their tribal theme and the Alliance's medieval theme. Even if I don't like playing Horde, I think they are pretty cool and each faction's identity must be preserved and enforced if possible rather than erased.

[Velite]

Giving paladin to horde is bad idea because trying too hard to balance everything harms the game in the long run and also you removing the class/faction identity .

What issues arise from trying to balance the game more?

One negative and very pivotal result is Homogenization. This happens when balancing eventually erases almost all unique traits of something. It's more prominent in Retail WoW where all classes are literally the same thing with different name - every class can DPS, every class can Tank, every class can Heal. At this point if all classes but one are removed from the game, it wouldn't make any difference.

Right now the only thing that sets apart the Horde from the Alliance is that they have a Shaman and the Alliance have a Paladin. If you give Paladin to the Horde and Shaman to the Alliance, then what will set the two factions apart? NOTHING!

Might as well remove factions at this point altogether since they end up being the same thing with different name.



This is the one thing Vanilla WoW has going for it that makes it better than future versions of the game. Even from a roleplay perspective, it's a very important thing. It's the same as why the race and class combinations are as you see them. A Tauren can't be a Rogue or a Warlock and there is a reason for that. The same applies why Horde don't and have no Paladins and why the Alliance can't and don't have no Shamans.

This only matters for PvP though. PvE is cross faction so you can have paladins playing with shamans in the same party, albeit they conflict with eachother. At this point having all 9 classes on the same faction is, pve wise, just cosmetic.

Also as per Blizzard developer interviews from TBC launch, specifically from Jeff Kaplan, having the classes on both factions actually allowed them to be less homogenized: The vanilla methodology meant that paladins and shamans had to constantly be balanced with eachother which means that we really have 7 classes and 2 classes which are meant to be equal, versus in TBC where we had 9 distinct classes. Which is why I support having all 9 classes on each faction, we've already gone over the major hurdle which was PvE wise.

https://youtu.be/41w3zsE77cg?t=107

[Velite]

Alternatively we rebalance paladins and shamans separately despite being faction locked, to which many shamans and paladins would complain. But this would reduce homogenization. Whatever the case, I don't want paladins and shamans to feel chained to eachother when we do not share the same sentiment with say, rogue and priest or hunter and druid.

[Trenhelm]

Massively against. Horde has no business dabbling in powers of the Light while holding a formal alliance with the Forsaken, Sylvanas sure as deuce would never ever tolerate "cults of the light" within her Forsaken lest they be perceived as conspiring against her rule (which is why I think undead priests should be restricted to shadow discipline only, really, but at that point you may as well just replace undead priest with a unique class of shadow disciple that is somehow different from warlock, but mages also draw on the Twisting Nether for their power, so it would just be a different sort of manifestion, I suppose.) I can't see a single organic reason for this to exist, and I'm sure it's why Blizzard decided to force it in with their clumsy "blood elves to horde for some reason" and "dranei from space suddenly have intimate connection to Azeroth and so are shamans" garbage.

[Kanto123]

That makes sense to me, I get what you're saying. It maintains the interest of each element of the game by making each element unique. I play Horde because of their tribal theme, and I'm not interested in the Medieval theme of the Alliance

I'm glad you can see my perspective. I play Alliance and not Horde, but even though I don't play Horde, I like their tribal theme and the Alliance's medieval theme. Even if I don't like playing Horde, I think they are pretty cool and each faction's identity must be preserved and enforced if possible rather than erased.

Yeah this is why I'm not too keen on forsaken being in the horde; I feel Blizzard needed to make them playable since they were in Warcraft 3, and by default had to put them on Horde because they would be an even worse fit for Alliance. I can understand Night Elves being in the Alliance more than Forsaken in Horde

[Andima]

Lorewise; I dont understand how is it that forsaken holy priest is ok, but paladin is not.

As a game, i dont understand why those who dont like a forsaken to be paladin will prevent other player to have that option.

Anyhow, we may all agree that forsaken in horde is more a gameplay decision than a lore one. So we better dont take it to seriously

[Trenhelm]

Lorewise; I dont understand how is it that forsaken holy priest is ok, but paladin is not.

As a game, i dont understand why those who dont like a forsaken to be paladin will prevent other player to have that option.

Anyhow, we may all agree that forsaken in horde is more a gameplay decision than a lore one. So we better dont take it to seriously

Forsaken holy priest isn't okay, but it's not the first time blizzard forced something into gameplay that never made sense.
As a game, I don't understand why I can't make a lvl 99 that one-shots Kel'thuzad, it's not like it would effect anybody else. In a word, you want a cohesive world where things fit, and forsaken paladins (and forsakenholy priests for that matter, but blizzard, again, forced that one in so fighting against that is a tougher battle) trivialize the Forsaken as a collective entity into what Blizzard, curses on their name, has turned them into over time.

[Lasershadow]

I'd rather see Night Elf Paladins than Forsaken paladins. This was something wanted ALL the way back to ye olde Vanilla times of 2000s.

Night Elf Paladins would swap their powers to be more of the Elune Moonlight than the Divine Light. Some such powers could even be possibly added to Night Elf Priests as well.

A word on Forsaken Paladins: Not with the current breed. These Forsaken we play characters as were made from the Dark Magics of Shadow and Fel. As said simply: The Light hurts them and isn't going to work as it should. Basically like the Broken in TBC.

Maybe Light-Infused Ones made from Naaru of course. A Forsaken Paladin would be a Light-Infused Undead Model or another sub race perhaps like Post Legion was providing.

[Merikkinon]

Problem with that lore angle - as the game operates vs the logic of what you say - is that undead priests have access to holy magic. and that just doesn't jibe well with the logic of your statement (whIch I think lorewise is the way it should be)

[Allwynd01]

This only matters for PvP though. PvE is cross faction so you can have paladins playing with shamans in the same party, albeit they conflict with eachother. At this point having all 9 classes on the same faction is, pve wise, just cosmetic.

Also as per Blizzard developer interviews from TBC launch, specifically from Jeff Kaplan, having the classes on both factions actually allowed them to be less homogenized: The vanilla methodology meant that paladins and shamans had to constantly be balanced with eachother which means that we really have 7 classes and 2 classes which are meant to be equal, versus in TBC where we had 9 distinct classes. Which is why I support having all 9 classes on each faction, we've already gone over the major hurdle which was PvE wise.

If Horde and Alliance can play together in a group, then there is even less reason to have Horde Paladins or Alliance Shamans. It's that simple.

Problem with that lore angle - as the game operates vs the logic of what you say - is that undead priests have access to holy magic. and that just doesn't jibe well with the logic of your statement (whIch I think lorewise is the way it should be)

It absolutely never made sense for Forsaken to have a Priest, them being undead automatically means that even if they were Priests when they were alive, as soon as they died, using Priest abilities would hurt themselves, even destroy themselves after 2-3 uses. Any Forsaken with a little sense of self-preservation would abandon the Priest ways and turn to something else - Mage, Warlock or just the Shadow part of being a Priest, although that would require an entire new set of abilities to be developed for them and their version of the Priest would no longer be a healer, but a damage dealer and crowd control/utility class.